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welshhoppo wrote:The terrain is actually the players fault. The PP staff have been banging the "actually bring some bloody terrain" drum for a while now. We just don't tend to actually use it.

I do admit, Gotchas! Are really annoying, but I love how I can turn up with my army and have decent game against any opponent. You don't have that with GWs work.

I don't think it's the players fault. From what I have seen on YouTube, from players and Privateer Press, the problem I see with Warmahordes is, it's a mad rush to the middle
Each and Every Single Time. Hardly anything is ever in the corners or off to the sides. Nobody places terrain in the middle so you have to go around it. So why bother with terrain if all you ever do is HOP over the fence and rush to the middle?

I could be wrong of course since I don't play, but this is what I see on YouTube especially from PP videos and games.

Davor wrote:

welshhoppo wrote:The terrain is actually the players fault. The PP staff have been banging the "actually bring some bloody terrain" drum for a while now. We just don't tend to actually use it.

I do admit, Gotchas! Are really annoying, but I love how I can turn up with my army and have decent game against any opponent. You don't have that with GWs work.

I don't think it's the players fault. From what I have seen on YouTube, from players and Privateer Press, the problem I see with Warmahordes is, it's a mad rush to the middle
Each and Every Single Time. Hardly anything is ever in the corners or off to the sides. Nobody places terrain in the middle so you have to go around it. So why bother with terrain if all you ever do is HOP over the fence and rush to the middle?

I could be wrong of course since I don't play, but this is what I see on YouTube especially from PP videos and games.

This is why you put a Circle player in the loop on terrain placement. You want to see some terrain in the middle? You'll see some terrain in the middle all right.

Well the steamroller rules say terrain must be in the centre of the board and it can't be within 6 inches of a board edge. It should be in the middle, some of the best games I've played have revolved around having a forest or a building messing up everyone's plans.

NH Gunsmith wrote:Ah, fair enough. Not going to lie, after 14 years of GW games I got tired of asking people what their converted weapons and "counts as" weapons are since their kit didn't have it. I have come to like how little variation there is in a units equipment. I find it nice that when I go to the store to get in some pick-up games I don't have to constantly remind myself what something is and can just quickly glance at a unit and know what it is capable of. If I want oodles of customization or unit options, I would rather play a smaller scale skirmish game where I find it more fitting and easier to keep track of. But, I understand what you mean though, I have done my fair share of kit bashing and conversions to my 40k armies when I still played it.

Very true. One reason Necrons were the last GW army I built were because I didn't have to worry about the customization as much, and I was tired of dealing with GW's crap rules. To be fair, WarmaHordes has grown on me, but mostly because of the storylines allowed me to get in to the game easier. There are three more reasons I have had difficulty getting in to WarmaHordes, but customization was simply the first main one.

thekingofkings wrote:I gotta ask, have you tried the newest battletech and alpha strike? I have been a btech fan since the 80's, love that game! the new stuff is just great, customization and campaign and all the glory of old.

A little bit. I have almost a company full of miniatures. The hard part is that the local group was just starting to build up when my LGS went to crap. There was another store, but it was way out of the way and I had just lost my job, making it hard to meet up with anyone. A new LGS has opened up recently, but it can be hard to get time to get there since I am still just the House Husband.

I was able to play a game of the new rules recently taking an Eridani Jump Thunderbolt supported by a JagerMech and Enforcer against a Dragonfire and another Medium. Ended up gutted as I moved quickly up to take advantage of a lake and my medium-ranged weapons, while my lance-mates hugged the treeline farther back. The lake made it harder for me to be hit, but allowed me to be the closest to the enemy attracting the majority of their fire. Still, had fun till I was gunned down.

Cryonicleech wrote:I honestly still really enjoy WM/H's core gameplay. It does take a while to get used to, (I used to get thrashed all the time as a beginner) and I agree in some instances without players who are willing to help engage new players in learning (such as giving advice, discussing alternate tactics, etc.) the learning curve can feel a bit more steep.

When Steamroller is running hot, I have found it hard to find someone willing to help me learn the game. Combine that with my desire to "play it painted", and having little painting time available, and that has made it harder to get in to WarmaHordes. Toss in a little army ADD (Protectorate, then Trollbloods, then Mercs, then Skorne, back to Mercs, then restarting Skorne), and you have a recipe for nothing happening.

I don't think it's the players fault. From what I have seen on YouTube, from players and Privateer Press, the problem I see with Warmahordes is, it's a mad rush to the middle
Each and Every Single Time. Hardly anything is ever in the corners or off to the sides. Nobody places terrain in the middle so you have to go around it. So why bother with terrain if all you ever do is HOP over the fence and rush to the middle?

I could be wrong of course since I don't play, but this is what I see on YouTube especially from PP videos and games.

If you play caster kill, you will be right. Everything meets in the centre.
But in scenario play, the situation is different.
You have flags, objectives like bunkers, and zone. Contest, control, and dominate is what scenario play is all about.

Here's my question; does my butcher list with doom reavers still exist in MK3?

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Here's my question; does my butcher list with doom reavers still exist in MK3?

Well, let's put it this way. in mk3, doom reavers are fa:u.

So not only is your 'butcher list with doom readers' ok in mk3, you can run the list with any incarnation of the butcher.

And if you don't run it with butcher, but instead run it with Irusk2, those doom reavers are now immune to blast damage and can't be knocked down when they pass a tough

Or Sorscha, to freeze the enemy and smash them up when they can't move. Or Malakov2, for Prowl. Or Strakhov, for 15" charge threat on the feat turn.

(Unfortunately they still have Spell Ward so you can't use PZerkova and make Ghostly Doom Reavers.)

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
The terrain is actually the players fault. The PP staff have been banging the "actually bring some bloody terrain" drum for a while now. We just don't tend to actually use it.

It's a shame PP didn't come out with their own line of terrain. The licensed GF9 terrain was freaking awesome, but since it was faction specific it couldn't really be utilized en masse. When PP started taking back licenses and making accessories themselves I was hopeful that terrain would eventually make an appearance but that never materialized.

Reading between the lines, it is only a matter of time until they do, or at least release rules for general use. Look at Siege Brisbane's 'Combat Engineer', it has an ability that cannot be utilized. . . yet.
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?253084-Siege-Combat-Engineer-uhhhhhhh

or, it will be errata'd like the Siege Weapon ability.

What turned me off is every single warmahorde game I've ever witnessed at a store ever. Nobody paints their models. Terrain? Pffft. It seems like it should be pre-painted like x-wing because nobody cares about the hobby, its all about the competitive aspect. I don't know if the game is fun, but for me a lot of people the converting and modeling and (dare I say it) narrative is what draws in a lot of people. There are no stories being told, its just metagaming. That's fine for some people, but its just not my cup of tea.

 Don Savik wrote:
What turned me off is every single warmahorde game I've ever witnessed at a store ever. Nobody paints their models. Terrain? Pffft. It seems like it should be pre-painted like x-wing because nobody cares about the hobby, its all about the competitive aspect. I don't know if the game is fun, but for me a lot of people the converting and modeling and (dare I say it) narrative is what draws in a lot of people. There are no stories being told, its just metagaming. That's fine for some people, but its just not my cup of tea.

I can understand that 100%, but the same can be said of other games on a similar scale or larger. I can count on one hand the amount of times I have played a game of 40k against a painted army out of the many games over the years. And there is plenty of conversion opportunities in Warmachine, but to most of the people I know converting isn't something they are interested in. Doesn't stop me from doing conversions, and that is why I prefer to use an army that fields Warjacks instead of Warbeasts.

Terrain, or the lack of, is based on your local scene though. I love lots of terrain, and I like to fill the table according to PP's guidelines. I get the feeling a lot of guys don't even think about how little terrain they are using because they get used to using very little while learning and just keep doing the same thing out of habit.

 Don Savik wrote:
What turned me off is every single warmahorde game I've ever witnessed at a store ever. Nobody paints their models. Terrain? Pffft. It seems like it should be pre-painted like x-wing because nobody cares about the hobby, its all about the competitive aspect. I don't know if the game is fun, but for me a lot of people the converting and modeling and (dare I say it) narrative is what draws in a lot of people. There are no stories being told, its just metagaming. That's fine for some people, but its just not my cup of tea.

With the greatest of respect, saying things 'WMH players have no time for the hobby, never paint or convert' is perpetuating a falsehood. Take me. I am 97% painted for all my stuff (only betrayal at calth to paint up) and my WMH is, bar one model (kromac who is stripped and being repainted/converted), 100% painted. That's over 200 khador, 100odd circle, 80 odd retribution and a few dozen mercy/minions. All painted. I need terms of conversions, over half my doom reavers, my great bears, my war dog, female Fenris, female irusk, a squad of female iron(ing) fangs, kromac, ghetorix, my myrmydons, my bokurs are all converted. I'm one player. And i am far from the only one. If you want links, I will point you to other amazing examples of WMH converted models/armies such as the reco stormall, the assault on sul, the return of the orgoth, the legion of mechablight, and an amazing khador gun carriage to airship conversion. Pp have painting and converting contests in no quarter.Most of my friends have fully, or close to fully painted WMH armies, and we always play on terrained-up boards. The alternative is silly. In terms of narrative, the narrative of WMH is pretty impressive. The Lore is a genuine hidden gem and quite excellent and if you want any pointers feel free to ask. I will e apply tooblie and I guarantee you that you will change your mind on the lore.

On the other hand, I have also witnessed across multiple counties over a decade plenty of 'grey legions' fighting on 'planet bowling ball' games of 40k and you don't have ToView look far to see no end of army lists with utter contempt for the lore and narrative. And this is true for plenty other games too, whether gw or otherwise. To the point where I have despaired for gw players who show no interest InThe hobby, and just beating each other over the head with netlists.

Plenty gamers don't paint. That is a fact. But it is not confined to a specific system. For every wmh players with a Grey metal army, there are a dozen 40k players with the same (by dint of there being a far larger community). Plenty gamers do paint. Plenty gamers paint and convert. Creative people will be creative, regardless of the system. Plenty gamers poop all over the lore as only want to play a game and not immerse themselves in a ip. They're not wrong for wanting this either.

With the greatest of respect don savik, you're wrong. Plenty WMH gamers care deeply about the hobby and it's unfair for you To make sweeping unfair and unflattering generalisation for those of us that do while giving the players of the other games what amounts to a free pass for doing the same thing.

Our gaming group has all kinds of players. Some paint their armies before they field them (like me), others dont bother.
The background of WMH is a bit ''small'' (I guess you have a better word) when compared to other games.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Our gaming group has all kinds of players. Some paint their armies before they field them (like me), others dont bother.
The background of WMH is a bit ''small'' (I guess you have a better word) when compared to other games.

Have you read the rpg material by any chance? I found it did a great job of bringing the world to life. And if I may, it's anything but 'small', geographically, or pseudo-historically. I get where you're coming from though - going from the galaxy spamning 40k-inverse to an ip that is essentially the size of Western Europe does require a shift in perspective, but for what it's worth, the iron kingdoms is anything but small. Now I feel only pp would release the cryx, ios and Rhul sourcebook!

 wuestenfux wrote:
Our gaming group has all kinds of players. Some paint their armies before they field them (like me), others dont bother.
The background of WMH is a bit ''small'' (I guess you have a better word) when compared to other games.

It is newer, and it isn't as heavily marketed, but the Iron Kingdoms were a D&D 3.0 setting once upon a time. They don't lack for material, they just don't push it as hard as GW does.

Thanks fot the comments.
Frankly, I haven't looked into the rpg material. I surely will.

The RPG itself (in its current form) really needs a good group to make it work, because the rules aren't outstanding by themselves. But there is oodles of fluff. Add that to all the information available from the D20 RPG days and there is enough to really sink your teeth into.

Similarly, the old No Quarters (from Mark 1) are absolute goldmines for fluff, their guts and gears sections (can't remember if they were called that back then or not though, basically the unit/warjack in depth descriptions) are absolutely wonderful.

What about the Skorne errata published in Jan. 2017?

Jason Soles has reported that ''In the run-up to the release ... we made a few mistakes. ... I won't dwell on what went wrong ...''
What the heck? Any more details?

 wuestenfux wrote:
What about the Skorne errata published in Jan. 2017?

Jason Soles has reported that ''In the run-up to the release ... we made a few mistakes. ... I won't dwell on what went wrong ...''
What the heck? Any more details?

Beyond the release of the Skorne errata? Not sure. As I understand it they felt they'd painted themselves into a corner with the Skorne design space, and ended up with a faction that was 'balanced' but devoid of personality and interestingness. As a Skorne player I like the errata on paper, but I haven't had much chance to see it in practice.

(Pages 16-19 on http://files.privateerpress.com/op/errata/WMH-Errata-January-2017-2.pdf, if you want more details.)

 wuestenfux wrote:
What about the Skorne errata published in Jan. 2017?

Jason Soles has reported that ''In the run-up to the release ... we made a few mistakes. ... I won't dwell on what went wrong ...''
What the heck? Any more details?

They redid the faction, updated all the cards and fixed a lot of problems that skorne suffered in the transition to mk3.

They were badly in need of a fix, and it's good they put some work into fixing them. They have multiple options now which is what every faction needs.

It's also good that they aren't relying on their in house testing completely anymore, because that has been shown pretty clearly to be inadequate with this edition change.

 wuestenfux wrote:
What about the Skorne errata published in Jan. 2017?

Jason Soles has reported that ''In the run-up to the release ... we made a few mistakes. ... I won't dwell on what went wrong ...''
What the heck? Any more details?

Most of the details can probably be found in the Skorne board on their forum site, especially soon after the release.

I was very active in Mk2 and enjoyed the game a lot. But towards the end of MK2, there were some very boring lists appearing. Especially Bradigus really sucked the fun out of playing. I also got tired of the "you dont get to do anything" casters that were very common, and there was too many combos that could kill you on turn 1 practically if you moved your caster at all. ADR was also too much to keep up with, this is my hobby, not my job.

Mk3 sounded good at first, reigning in the worst offenders and making jacks very playable, but then it became apparent that there are just new boring lists. Spam seems to have gotten worse now :(. And then all the changes, too often new casters and models instead of making current ones usable, erratas that just clearly go too far or miss the mark...

I have lost faith in the ability of PP to actually keep the insane amount units and casters in balance, and I just can´t be bothered to stay up to date with all the changes. And in warmachine, when you are not up to date, you learn the hard way by getting caster killed in turn 1-2.

Warmachine seems like a game just for the hardcore gamers that are able to play at least once a week. Casually playing warmachine seems like an exercise in futility as you will always just be "had" by an unknown combo.

It does suck to have 20-ish painted jacks and hundreds of infantry just gathering dust in the cabinet though :(

Agreed with all of that, illumini (well, except I stopped mk2 earlier, thought I was taking a break but haven't come back...)

It was fun when I was really invested, but doesn't lend itself to casual play and is so repetitive that I kept burning out when I was invested (each time, there'd be an arc of getting back in, doing some stuff, refining it, then can't look at another assassination vector or w/e for a few months)

 Illumini wrote:
It does suck to have 20-ish painted jacks and hundreds of infantry just gathering dust in the cabinet though :(

On a completely unrelated topic, Mayhem is an interesting little fantasy battle game. Did you know it has a trait called 'construct', that allows a unit (of, say, fewer than two models) to be decked out with heavy weapons and controlled by a wizard?

I wonder what kind of potential that might have.

Personally, what I hate about WarmaHordes is the mix of material they use for their mini (metal, plastic and resin) and the lack of customization. Rule wise, it seems far better than 40K, especially the balance of the game. Still, I haven't bought a single model, even though some of their mini's are stunning and the game looks better done, because it lacks the modeling aspects that I so enjoy with 40K (unless you're an expert converter who can sculpt green stuff and such). Plus, their quality level is quite behind GW, even though they charge about the same price per mini.

Mr. CyberPunk wrote:
...Plus, their quality level is quite behind GW, even though they charge about the same price per mini...

The resolution on the casts is lower, but the artists are better. GW has a certain fondness for burying everything under an avalanche of ridiculous-looking embossed bling, Privateer has some sense of composition.

What sort of customization are you looking for? There's no rule that you can't add details to the models. The only thing that you are not allowed to change is the type of weapon(s) and shields(s). Even then you are allowed to use different forms of the same weapon (so you can change one sword for another).

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
What sort of customization are you looking for? There's no rule that you can't add details to the models. The only thing that you are not allowed to change is the type of weapon(s) and shields(s). Even then you are allowed to use different forms of the same weapon (so you can change one sword for another).

The material (hard plastic, metal) is a bit hard to work with.
GW models look much better than the PP ones, by a mile.