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I don't play in a game store all of the time. In fact, when talking 40k, its less than 10 times since I started playing in 2008. Each time, however, I've bought something that I needed. Not new paints or glue or chips, but maybe a new codex, new box of Tacticals or Rhino, etc. Not due to any guilt, but due to support. I needed those things, I like that the store was here for me to play in, and I wanted to support the store.

In my card playing days (Star Wars CCG from Decipher), there was only one store that charged for table space where I played, but it was always full of players. Many players that often bought their boxes of cards online, not supporting the store. I get it. I didn't like it at the time, but I understand why they had to do it.

I would pay a nominal fee to play. Say, $5 for a 3 hour table reserve. More than that? I'd probably say no.

 Wopbopadobop wrote:
Do your own math

A) How much do you spend a week
B) How many additional staff does your local store owner employ
C) How many regulars does your store have

X = Y - Z

Y = ((A*0.2)*C)
Z = (B*250)+500

Y is profit
Z is costs
X is how much the store owner takes home

Assumptions

-Building rental\utilities on your LGS is £500 a week
-Average store employee takes home £250 a week (minimum wage, pretax)
-Profit margin on product is 20%

Let's do an optimistic example

I spend £100 EVERY week in my local game store
My local store has 50 REGULARS who spend the same each week as I do.
The local store employs 1 additional person

£1000 profit
-£750 upkeep

Store owner X is taking home £250 a week before taxes. National minimum wage.

Does your local store have 50 regular players spending £100 a week EACH? Mine doesn't. Running a LGS is a charity, not a get rich quick scheme.

Obviously the store is doing fine as it's been open for a number of years. It's common knowledge that LGS make their money from Magic, not 40k. So allow me to make some assumptions of my own. Will the store still have participation if the league isn't mandatory? Yes it will. There are still plenty of players who want the opportunity to win money, and speaking to my group I know this to be a fact. Will not making the league mandatory make or break the store? Of course it won't. If it wasn't mandatory they'd probably pull in a few more players who have the same views that I do.

Obviously the store is doing fine as it's been open for a number of years.

Not necessarily. I'm close friends with two local store owners. One store has been around for 20+ years and the other about 10. Both are consistently walking a tight-rope in terms of making/losing money. As has been mentioned already - running a game store in the current age is more of a "labor of love"/charity than it is a money making business venture.

It's common knowledge that LGS make their money from Magic, not 40k.

Games like Magic bring more people into the store, but, as Kronk pointed out, a lot of people buy a good chunk of their cards on-line.

From my perspective, it just looks like the owner sees the play area as another revenue stream.

If he wants to be successful, he absolutely SHOULD see the table space that way. Every table is a spot that could have actually revenue generating merchandise displays rather than a table. Monetizing that space is perfectly reasonable and a 5$ fee that goes to store credit really isn't unreasonable.

There was a FLGS in Maidstone who apparently charged for gaming terms.

Was

I'd be shocked if that policy is the reason they went under. It's a lot more likely that the store was already on its way out and this was a last-ditch effort to try and generate some much needed cash. I've seen plenty of stores that charge nominal fees to use their tables from day 1 and plenty that started with free tables and had to eventually start charging. 9 times out of 10, those that charged up-front, as well as those that began charging at some point, ended up better for it. The stores that went under, were already failing.

I would never pay for tables. I might have like a "membership fee", like $15 a month or something that gave me access to tables and a discount on products, like a "premium members club" sort of approach. But paying just to play is riduclous, and is yet another reason why I feel that the age of the FLGS as a place to play is going away, because it as a business thrives on guilt-tripping you into only buying there by trying to appeal to your sense of charity, when often there's no compelling reason besides that to shop there (often little or no discount, have to custom order many products and wait weeks for it to arrive, etc.) literally the ONLY thing a game shop provides is space, and they treat space as being the rarest commodity of all. No other business does that.

Wayniac wrote:
literally the ONLY thing a game shop provides is space, and they treat space as being the rarest commodity of all. No other business does that.

That's the thing that costs the most money! A good sized games room of 6 or so tables could be a comfortable bedsit, 1 bed flat or even rented/sub-let to another small business.
I see that you are American so perhaps space isn't an issue but in the UK it is very much THE issue, this is one of the reasons people do go to Games Stores or clubs as they don't have the space to play at home. It depends where you live and what the property prices are like.
Pubs/restaurants put a mark up onto drinks etc, if game stores did that they wouldn't sell a single box. What option do they have left other than 'hiding' that fee elsewhere?

 Alex Kolodotschko wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
literally the ONLY thing a game shop provides is space, and they treat space as being the rarest commodity of all. No other business does that.

That's the thing that costs the most money! A good sized games room of 6 or so tables could be a comfortable bedsit, 1 bed flat or even rented/sub-let to another small business.
I see that you are American so perhaps space isn't an issue but in the UK it is very much THE issue, this is one of the reasons people do go to Games Stores or clubs as they don't have the space to play at home. It depends where you live and what the property prices are like.
Pubs/restaurants put a mark up onto drinks etc, if game stores did that they wouldn't sell a single box. What option do they have left other than 'hiding' that fee elsewhere?

I'm a proponent of clubs over stores, in part because I've seen a lot of territorial "gang" mentality surrounding stores. People calling others out for promoting another store, accusations of "Stealing customers" by saying that hey another store is nearby too that has games. People saying if a store doesn't sell a game, you can't even play it there because the store can't profit off of the game. It's ridiculous. If space is the biggest issue, I'd much rather pay "membership dues" for only table space, and the rest be damned. Clubs already do that, don't they? Members pay dues so the club can rent space and maybe have club terrain or whatnot? I would not want to pay per day though, or like buy X in product and it's waived.

I'm a proponent of clubs over stores, in part because I've seen a lot of territorial "gang" mentality surrounding stores. People calling others out for promoting another store, accusations of "Stealing customers" by saying that hey another store is nearby too that has games. People saying if a store doesn't sell a game, you can't even play it there because the store can't profit off of the game. It's ridiculous. If space is the biggest issue, I'd much rather pay "membership dues" for only table space, and the rest be damned. Clubs already do that, don't they? Members pay dues so the club can rent space and maybe have club terrain or whatnot? I would not want to pay per day though, or like buy X in product and it's waived.

I've seen all of those bad behaviors in clubs as well. I think your real issue is less with stores, and more with bad stores. If a store had a bad environment, I wouldn't play there whether it was free to play or not.

I've seen equal "gang mentality" with clubs.

Oh it's good they're only playing X Wing or board/card games ie 4 per table, no terrain. Surely they should pay less.
Or
Clubs not investing in suitable terrain for what some members want because "Fish Wars" is the shot caller's favourite game etc.
Or
Why is our club budget going into hosting a competitive tournament. I don't agree with that playstyle.

Often when these issues get out of hand it's time to open a new club or even store.
You'll often find that Clubs have semi professionals pushing in a certain direction for their own personal gain, either as commission painters, terrain makers, a guy who can get things cheap from a certain company, the guy who 'helps' to put together the club order and skims a bit, the TO, the guy who does the T-Shirts through his uncles business, the guy with a girlfriend who supplies the cakes etc
Hobby ego politics is an awful game to play but it happens.

Wayniac wrote:
I'm a proponent of clubs over stores, in part because I've seen a lot of territorial "gang" mentality surrounding stores. People calling others out for promoting another store, accusations of "Stealing customers" by saying that hey another store is nearby too that has games. People saying if a store doesn't sell a game, you can't even play it there because the store can't profit off of the game. It's ridiculous. If space is the biggest issue, I'd much rather pay "membership dues" for only table space, and the rest be damned. Clubs already do that, don't they? Members pay dues so the club can rent space and maybe have club terrain or whatnot? I would not want to pay per day though, or like buy X in product and it's waived.

Whether you pay membership fees or pay per play is just arguing the fine print. You're paying to use the tables either way, someone who plays lots of games per month might prefer a membership fee or someone like me who plays more irregularly will prefer to pay per play as I'll sometimes go months on end without playing so a membership fee would completely turn me off.

Before we had gaming stores in this area that are large enough to have 10+ tables, clubs would rent out community halls and whatnot for big games nights. With the larger stores, clubs tend to rent out the stores instead. It's almost the same situation but it's better because you tend to get a mixing of clubs and smaller clubs have the option of just renting out part of the space where previously they couldn't afford to rent a larger community hall and previously some clubs themselves didn't have the tables/terrain to host a large even but now they can.

The stuff you're complaining about....

People calling others out for promoting another store, accusations of "Stealing customers" by saying that hey another store is nearby too that has games. People saying if a store doesn't sell a game, you can't even play it there because the store can't profit off of the game. It's ridiculous.

...stores that charge money for tables alleviates a lot of those problems. We can go in and say "yo, can I rent that table for the night" the guy behind the counter says "sure, that'll be $5" and then no one cares what models I pull out of my bag or what store they were bought from, I paid for that table so I'll put whatever I want on it.

As long as they organized events so games kept happening, I wouldn't be opposed to a small fee.

Wayniac wrote:
literally the ONLY thing a game shop provides is space, and they treat space as being the rarest commodity of all. No other business does that.

If it doesn't sell, why should any space be allocated for it? There is an item that I like (no need to say what it is, for each of us 'it' is different), it is a niche item that seems as though I am the only customer purchasing it. It makes sense that it has to be special ordered, because it is a drain on the business to keep it in stock, they don't have any on the floor (no space allocated for it), but they are happy to order it for me if I put down my money ahead of time so that they aren't actually losing money on the deal.

Tabletop games, by their definition only need space. Whether that space is on a table top, on a counter top, or on a cleared section of flooring is immaterial. that space still needs to be paid for. And while some stores are willing to break even, why should someone pay to support your habit? I have nothing inherently against **edit**any addicting habit**edit**, my problem comes when someone chooses to rob Peter to pay Paul to support their habit. My feelings about paying for gaming space run along the same lines.

I have good relations with 3 clubs in my area. One has its own real estate with minimal costs per game night and so has a set year subscription. The members of the club can come and go as they please to play games on any night but there are also set nights for specific games.

The other 2 are clubs with a common venue but rented each night by the hour with a first come first served policy for getting a table. Both these clubs charge a fee per person no matter what they play. If you are just watching as there is no room then you aren´t charged.

An LGS should be allowed to do the same as they have a policy that allows anyone to walk in and play for a minimal fee. Maybe you don´t want to enter the weekly event but you should still pay for the use of the premises. Now if the store opened up a monthly fee that allows customers to play without the daily charge that would be up to the customer to weight up that options of how many times are they likely to play as is a one of monthly fee better than paying each time they play.

Firmly on the "if stores want to be successful, they need to pull in the crowds" -side.

Tables are there to bind people, especially CCG/LGC-players but to a lesser extent also tabletop players. And by binding them, to make them loyal, make them more likely to spend money in the store.

The better you do that, the more loyal customers you generete, the more successful you will be.

Charging money for tables might be detrimental to that goal, because it diminishes people's incentive to "give something back" by buying something in the store.
All relations are built on (emotional) debts, and the moment you pay for a table, you already paid your debt.

I'm not sure if this has been corrected in the post already as unfortunately i'm at work so can't scroll through all five pages of this post but I would recommend that those calling him a leech or criticising him for not wanting to pay the charge to take a close look at what he said.

He said he was being charged for playing Warhammer and NOT that they were charging for tables in general.

I personally am fine with the principle of paying for a table to play at a shop, it's their tables so fair is fair. However I would be disgusted if the shop was specifically charging those that want to play Warhammer with this toll. That is not fair and would, in my view, rightfully warrant a negative response.


So if this store is not charging Warmachine, Infinity, MTG (Commander games can take up huge areas) or big boardgame players with this charge then the store deserves to be pointed out as being silly.

Although as said i'm not sure if this has been clarified yet so if they are charging everyone for a table (even non-Warhammer players) then actually the store is pretty fair.

Davor wrote:

Viridian has a great point, and it's worth mentioning that the same few people consistently win the pool because they run extremely hard lists. (4 riptides in a 1k point match anyone?)

And playing Unbound makes you TFG and is horrible to play.

4 Riptides is a battle-forged list. Unbound is perfectly reasonable 95% of the time, because most of the ridiculous cheese in this game is perfectly battle-forged.

The issue seems to be that the league has completely taken over the 40k game night. And they don't allow 40k at any other time.

The thing I'm learning from this thread is; LGS are not a charity, but 40k players are.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
The issue seems to be that the league has completely taken over the 40k game night. And they don't allow 40k at any other time.

The thing I'm learning from this thread is; LGS are not a charity, but 40k players are.

There's an element of enlightened self-interest on BOTH sides.

A FLGS wants gamer traffic because (in theory) they buy stuff. So it is in their interests that they provide tables. However, it has to make economic sense.

A gamer wants access to gaming tables and opponents, rather than invite near strangers over to their home, or visit a near stranger's home for play. So it is in their interests to support a FLGS that provides tables. However, it has to make economic sense.

Bottom line, however, is that game tables are a service that provides value to the customer. Try getting together a group of people to rent a community center space and provide your own tables and terrain and see how much effort/money it requires. A gaming store table with terrain is a HUGE convenience that a lot of gamers don't fully appreciate.

John Prins wrote:
Bottom line, however, is that game tables are a service that provides value to the customer. Try getting together a group of people to rent a community center space and provide your own tables and terrain and see how much effort/money it requires. A gaming store table with terrain is a HUGE convenience that a lot of gamers don't fully appreciate.

+1 to this. Having seen how hard it is to organize even something far easier-- a DnD game-- in real life, I have to say, the prospect of renting community center space, getting everything set up, and getting such a large amount of coordination out of a bunch of nerds with jobs and lives (which most warhammer players are) is pretty daunting. Hell, even organizing a skype/teamspeak/discord based dnd game is daunting enough, and sometimes impossible without involving players from around the world. A small fee for the service really does not seem out of place to me, especially if there's options (per play / per month) and they keep their shop, terrain, and tables in good condition.

John Prins wrote:

A FLGS wants gamer traffic because (in theory) they buy stuff. So it is in their interests that they provide tables. However, it has to make economic sense.

It's honestly been my experience that a FLGS wants gamer traffic because they legitimately want to provide a place where people can game under the assumption that a game shop can provide the funds to deliver the service. Things start to sour as they learn this is not the case.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 carldooley wrote:

If it doesn't sell, why should any space be allocated for it? There is an item that I like (no need to say what it is, for each of us 'it' is different), it is a niche item that seems as though I am the only customer purchasing it. It makes sense that it has to be special ordered, because it is a drain on the business to keep it in stock, they don't have any on the floor (no space allocated for it), but they are happy to order it for me if I put down my money ahead of time so that they aren't actually losing money on the deal.

The problem with special orders is just that online stores enable the customers to special order directly in a more convenient and reliable fashion. I can think of few things as outdated as the idea of going someplace to pay some guy to do the thing I can do on my phone with a couple taps.

Compounding this issue is the fact that special orders have to go through distributors, who are their own kind of weak link in the chain. With online orders you can check stock directly and expect delivery in a week or less. With distributors you have no idea if they can get it and it can take quite a while if they have to hunt around for the item.

I think this is also why there is a new breed of like... bar/restaurant + game store that is cropping up in some urban areas. They don't need to encourage as much "Buy from me, I have tables" type of guilt-trip charity as a traditional FLGS, because you're paying more for food/drink which can cover the rent.

The issue is that stores have ulterior motives, namely to sell product and turn a profit, while a club doesn't have that interest but tends to need more capital (renting a hall or something can be expensive, not to mention transporting terrain and tables and whatnot) and is harder to organize, while a game store always occupies a specific location. The problem then becomes that a game store will cater to whoever gives it the most profit, which is why you often see MtG taking over all the available tables, shutting the wargamers out for a weekend when there's a pre-release or similar, because it's more in the store's interest to get more MtG players who will pay in to the pre-release than the group of wargamers who don't buy something constantly (also why FNM is such a huge deal, it's guaranteed profits for barely any investment, 52 weeks a year). There doesn't exist anything comparable for wargaming, because a game store often can't survive on just that alone, and if they charge that money goes to the game store, not to for example provide tables stocked with terrain which is needed for wargaming but not for card games. A club can use "dues" to rent space, buy game mats and terrain or even have "club armies" that anyone can use, but a store can't usually use funds it obtains for that purpose because those funds are entirely consumed by rent, utilities and/or paying employees.

 carldooley wrote:
$5 a week membership charge? TOTALLY OUTRAGEOUS!!! \sarcasm
The fact that the $5 goes towards store credit means that the owner wants to ensure that people who play at his store don't just buy everything online at cheaper prices and only use his shop to game at.

Look at it from his perspective. It is a store. It has to pay rent and for its employees. He isn't saying that you cannot game there, but he is saying that you should help with the upkeep.

If the OP wants to be a bottom feeding scum sucker, and drive that particular place into the dirt while buying all their gaming supplies elsewhere, (s)he IS EXACTLY THE TYPE OF PERSON THE CHARGE IS THERE FOR!

Look at it another way; how much do you spend on snacks\drinks? easily $5 a night. $5 a week? that goes towards store credit anyway? buy a drink and enjoy yourself.

The OP is paying for store upkeep by buying product.

I agree with some posters. If you are confronted by a store owner in a similar fashion, simply tell them it's money you will not spend on their product.

If 4-5 players save their 5 dollars a week in a few months they can have the money to buy one or maybe two tables and the needed pieces of terrain. Of course they would stay at a single place but among friends that's not a problem, right? 5$/week are a huge tax, assuming that no one plays every single week, but still that would be 150+ dollars in a year. I'd buy my table and scenarios with that money. At least one player in a friends group surely would have the required space.

 Blackie wrote:
5$/week are a huge tax

Uh, what? This is a pretty significant lack of perspective on the issue, pretty much any other form of entertainment is going to cost more than $5/week.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LunarSol wrote:
The problem with special orders is just that online stores enable the customers to special order directly in a more convenient and reliable fashion.

Depends on the situation. If I have to pay for shipping from an online store and then make a trip out to the post office when they inevitably leave a "lol, like you think we deliver packages to you" note on the door (if they don't lose it entirely) I might as well tell my local store "order this for me" and come pick it up the next time I'm in. Online shopping is great, but it's not always the best option.

XCaligulaX wrote:
This past week I was confronted by the store manager who had never worked during 40k nights before but she made it a ppint to ensure every player present had paid their $5. I told her I come to play but do not participate in the league. She responded by saying I could only play 40k if I payed money regardless.

I'd be you she's misunderstood her manager's instructions.

 AegisGrimm wrote:

The OP is paying for store upkeep by buying product.

I agree with some posters. If you are confronted by a store owner in a similar fashion, simply tell them it's money you will not spend on their product.

If the OP is paying for store upkeep by buying product.... then.... err... what's the problem? The OP said the $5 buy in foes to store credit, so if you're buying stuff at the store anyway it should make zero difference.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ChazSexington wrote:

XCaligulaX wrote:
This past week I was confronted by the store manager who had never worked during 40k nights before but she made it a ppint to ensure every player present had paid their $5. I told her I come to play but do not participate in the league. She responded by saying I could only play 40k if I payed money regardless.

I'd be you she's misunderstood her manager's instructions.

I reckon there has been a misunderstanding along the way somewhere because it just seems like a weird situation.

While I don't have a problem with stores charging to use tables, the way the OP describes it just seems like a bat gak stupid way to implement a pay to play system.

 Peregrine wrote:

Uh, what? This is a pretty significant lack of perspective on the issue, pretty much any other form of entertainment is going to cost more than $5/week.

Some form of entertainment can't be replaced, i mean if i play a sport like football, basketball, ecc and i have to pay for the field that's fair, no one can afford (or have the space) to build his/her personal play field, if i love going to cinema that's fair to pay tickets as watching movies at home is completely different. But a table with some piece of terrain is the same if located in a house or in a store, especially if you typically play casual games with a group of friends. In my area, but i can say in the entire country, miniatures games are not particularly popular and if local stores begin to charge only to allow people to play they would close in a week.

Many people in the USA think the only way to play any game is at a game store.

 Blackie wrote:
Some form of entertainment can't be replaced, i mean if i play a sport like football, basketball, ecc and i have to pay for the field that's fair, no one can afford (or have the space) to build his/her personal play field, if i love going to cinema that's fair to pay tickets as watching movies at home is completely different. But a table with some piece of terrain is the same if located in a house or in a store, especially if you typically play casual games with a group of friends. In my area, but i can say in the entire country, miniatures games are not particularly popular and if local stores begin to charge only to allow people to play they would close in a week.

Why are you talking about "fair" like it means anything? You can choose whether or not the service the store offers is desirable, but it's absurd to say it's "unfair" for the store to charge money for it. And it also doesn't change the fact that $5/week is a trivial amount of money compared to the cost of most other forms of entertainment. Want to go see a movie? You're paying several times that much, and you get fewer hours of entertainment out of it. Go out drinking with friends? $5 is what, one beer, two if you get the cheap stuff? The amount of outrage over the idea of paying $5 to use a store's gaming space is vastly disproportionate to the actual cost.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Some form of entertainment can't be replaced, i mean if i play a sport like football, basketball, ecc and i have to pay for the field that's fair, no one can afford (or have the space) to build his/her personal play field, if i love going to cinema that's fair to pay tickets as watching movies at home is completely different. But a table with some piece of terrain is the same if located in a house or in a store, especially if you typically play casual games with a group of friends. In my area, but i can say in the entire country, miniatures games are not particularly popular and if local stores begin to charge only to allow people to play they would close in a week.

Why are you talking about "fair" like it means anything? You can choose whether or not the service the store offers is desirable, but it's absurd to say it's "unfair" for the store to charge money for it. And it also doesn't change the fact that $5/week is a trivial amount of money compared to the cost of most other forms of entertainment. Want to go see a movie? You're paying several times that much, and you get fewer hours of entertainment out of it. Go out drinking with friends? $5 is what, one beer, two if you get the cheap stuff? The amount of outrage over the idea of paying $5 to use a store's gaming space is vastly disproportionate to the actual cost.

I understand your point but I think you don't understand mine. I can play 40k without a local store, that 5$/week tax is avoidable in my opinion. Watching a movie at home or drinking beers bought at the supermarket in my living room is completely different than going to the cinema or a club/pub.What is fair and unfair is subjective, in my opionion 5$/week only to play casual games are too much, because I can play a 40k game at my place or a friend of mine's home without regretting the local store. If you save those 5$/week for some months you can afford your own table/scenario. It's just my opinion though, if you absolutely want to play in a store and consider that tax fair that's your opinion, I respect it completely. In my area nobody charges people only to play in their store, no one would continue playing there anymore if it happens. If I gave the impression to talk about "fair" like it means anything that's only because english isn't my own language, I apology for that, it was not intended.

 Blackie wrote:
I can play 40k without a local store, that 5$/week tax is avoidable in my opinion.

Not everyone has a gaming table set up in their home\garage. If you are willing to host a game night, more power to you. But after your buddies empty your fridge, foul your toilet, and fail to put stuff away after using it (assuming someone shows up that you want to play against, no guarantee), you may have a new appreciation for that $5\week charge.