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SolarCross wrote: Given that online discounters can always beat LGS on price and selection and that the only thing an LGS can do better than the online discounters is venue provision, I wonder if an LGS might not do better to concede the retail side of the business entirely (or almost entirely) so they can double down on war game tables & events. Instead of looking at tables as a sacrifice in shelf space, look at shelves as a sacrifice in table space! Needless to say that would mean charging for tables, the same as a video arcade charges for machines or a pool hall charges for pool tables. Anyone think that might be the way to go for LGS?
Several problems with this, but I'll just highlight the two largest ones.
Many areas have minuscule wargaming populations. Only shops in major metropolitan areas could hope to survive with that kind of business model due to the sheer number (or more a lack of) of interested bodies. Tournaments / game nights generally pander to adults. As a result they generally they start in the late afternoon / early evening after people are done with work, picked up their kids from school, and other activities, which means that they'll often take place during rush hour. As a result even stores in densely populated areas are somewhat strangled in how far they can reliably draw people from.
Similarly but also somewhat different, a shop with this model would require a large (and constant) client base to function. If you're getting five dollars a head for just the right to play / access to the tables, you're going to need an average of 20 heads a day to simply 100$ a day. Now that's not much income for a business, and how many of us can reasonably think of a store which has an average of 20 people, a day, interested in playing 40k / magic / ect. This number becomes more obtainable if you factor in food and average it (I.E. 60 heads on friday covers numerous days), but this still comes with the issue of being below the bare-minimum profit wise.
Last, but not least, this thread is a perfect example of why this idea would be doomed to fail: Many people balk at the idea of paying anything to play, so you'd lose a large number of potential customers to them being too cheap to fork over a few bucks for a superior playing area.
I've seen a couple of stores seemingly execute this business plan. One of them closed a few years back but my understanding was that was a rental issue (they rented a large area, about 75% of which was just dedicated to gaming and a little section which had a limited range of models both new and 2nd hand and a cafeteria, my understanding was they closed because the land lord raised their rent disproportionately one year so they suddenly and unexpectedly had to close.
The other store that uses the gaming over miniature selling as a business model has a similar setup, they rent out a reasonably large area, have a couple of dozen tables set up and carry a lot of different miniature games but only a limited selection from each one. They haven't closed yet but I haven't asked the owner how well he is or is not doing.
I think when it comes to that sort of stuff, you probably want an area with established clubs and get the clubs involved to make sure you have money coming in. If you can organise with clubs to rent out the whole area from time to time it becomes more viable. In Australia you can also get a liquor license for closed events more easily, so it opens the door to selling booze at club events (for better or for worse, but that's what the local place does, they have booze they're only allowed to sell during private events).
There was another place a little far away called Board and Burgers. They had a restaurant and a small selection of board games to play. They only lasted 5 months since one of the co-owners wanted to get at least $2,000 month in net revenues for her alone. I think she wanted to become rich in one year.
SolarCross wrote: Given that online discounters can always beat LGS on price and selection and that the only thing an LGS can do better than the online discounters is venue provision, I wonder if an LGS might not do better to concede the retail side of the business entirely (or almost entirely) so they can double down on war game tables & events. Instead of looking at tables as a sacrifice in shelf space, look at shelves as a sacrifice in table space! Needless to say that would mean charging for tables, the same as a video arcade charges for machines or a pool hall charges for pool tables. Anyone think that might be the way to go for LGS?
In the area I live in, there are a lot of gaming stores. You've got The Geekery, 31st Century Games, Tabletop, Collector's Cache, a GW Store, Pulp Fiction, and Game Cafe all within the Kansas City Metro. And those are just the ones I've heard of (I've only been here 2 years). None of which charge for tables, and all of which have at least 5 6'x4' tables and enough decent terrain to cover every table.
I don't see how your proposed model would work in an already saturated market. And I'm in favor of charging for table use.
Personally, having never really encountered a store that charges to play, it's an odd concept to me.
We have a few local gaming groups that charge a members fee, which grants discounts to events and games, but that is because they purely run games and need the income to rent the space they use.
I'd see it as the store inviting you to use their tables is just an opportunity for them to promote themselves and win you over as a customer, so would be a little put off if they tried to charge for a casual game.
SolarCross wrote: Given that online discounters can always beat LGS on price and selection and that the only thing an LGS can do better than the online discounters is venue provision, I wonder if an LGS might not do better to concede the retail side of the business entirely (or almost entirely) so they can double down on war game tables & events. Instead of looking at tables as a sacrifice in shelf space, look at shelves as a sacrifice in table space! Needless to say that would mean charging for tables, the same as a video arcade charges for machines or a pool hall charges for pool tables. Anyone think that might be the way to go for LGS?
In the area I live in, there are a lot of gaming stores. You've got The Geekery, 31st Century Games, Tabletop, Collector's Cache, a GW Store, Pulp Fiction, and Game Cafe all within the Kansas City Metro. And those are just the ones I've heard of (I've only been here 2 years). None of which charge for tables, and all of which have at least 5 6'x4' tables and enough decent terrain to cover every table.
I don't see how your proposed model would work in an already saturated market. And I'm in favor of charging for table use.
Wel,, naturally this is impossible in such a heavy saturated market unless the tables and surrounding services they provide are above and beyond what any of the others offer, however most of us do NOT life in such luxuries markets (and if there are enough players to support this many shops, there is probably some heavy stream of revenue from purchases.) and FLGS opening in said areas simply cannot compete.
I don't know a single FLGS in my area that holds any more than a single, barren table. most shops in the general area are just that-shops. at best there are a few small boardgaming tables, but not a proper wargaming table.
And by general area, I mean up to an hour and a half drive away. good luck if you don't have your own car. (not to mention gas prices factor in)
And this KILLS our local community ever since the old FLGS with proper tables closed shop. its hard to get games, its harder still to get people to join us, and it takes the wind out of everyone's sails.
Had there been a shop opening that rents you a table for 5$, even 10$, in the area, we'd probably hit that every day, because it sure as hell beats the alternative.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
Firstly, thanks for all the replies. I just got home from work so I've read through them all. With the exception of one post (which did escalate rather quickly) all of these have been quite informative. It seems that a lot of EU players have to pay to play, but those prices aren't anywhere near what I'm expected to pay. I am a very firm believer in supporting local businesses in anything I do, however at the same time I am very conscience of my money, being a finance major. I have a number of expensive hobbies, believe it or not 40k being one of the cheaper ones.
I buy models with a different frequency than most of my friends. When I want something, I just buy a lot of it rather than one model at a time. When I decided I wanted to run a tank-heavy IG list, I bought 7 LRBT's in the span of a month. I recently bought $500 in Daemon models all at once, and once I finish those I'm going to buy a few hundred dollars in Catachan models to play GSC. I like tackling large projects, one at a time, and moving on to the next one.
So this $5 almost "layaway" system really doesn't do me any good. If the LGS had a system in place to track my purchases so that every $50 tank I bought counted me for 2.5 months of play then sure, I wouldn't mind. But I spend enough money there as it is, and I don't want to have to constantly bring $5 in every week. As someone said previously, is the ~240 in revenue from forcing me to play worth the loss of $500? Shouldn't I as the customer be able to decide how I purchase my models? What if I just don't want to purchase any models for the time being and I accrue a large amount in store credit but have to move due to being in the military? I'd just have to dump that all on models that I don't even want. Sounds like a bad situation to me.
Honestly the only thing holding me back from never visiting that store again is the community that plays there. We have a good number of casual players that can have fun with weird lists or just laugh whether winning or losing. Fortunately for me there are a few other gaming stores around, including one that opened up recently that is only a few minute drive from my house. Not only does this place have a larger play area than storefront, the owner is a 40k fan, and he has been very accommodating to me when I want to play 40k on a non-40k day or even keep the store open a little late just so we can finish the game. He even offers a military discount as well as discounts on anything ordered through the store.
Have you spoken to the Store owner over this yet? Just curious.
Tamwulf wrote:$5/week for several hours of entertainment, use of table space and terrain, and the chance to earn that money back and then some in store credit every month? Sign me up!
$5 < a cup of coffee at Starbucks, less then a burger at whatever Fast Food place you pick, less then a couple gallons of gas to drive somewhere, way, way cheaper then any video game (unless you buy the garbage games on Steam LOL), cheaper then a book...
Yeah, $5/week is pretty much nothing in a hobby where the standard 10 model Space Marine box costs $40. Heck, you can barely buy a bottle of paint for $5, and certainly not a good paint brush.
You can stand on a and shout out it's the principle of the thing, but that $5 is paying for so much more. It's helping keeping the doors of the FLGS open. It pays for terrain to go on the tables. The chance to win more money appeals to a lot of people (that stupid gambler gene), so the chances of having an opponent to play against go up. You get to talk and hang out with fellow 40K players. Nothing in life is free. And the FLGS's that allow you to play for free don't typically stay open for long (unless the owner just sucks up the loss and covers it in other ways).
The $5/week is a win/win situation. Both for you and the store. If you have problems coming up with $5/week, you are in the wrong hobby.
In the wrong hobby? Maybe the store owner is in the wrong business. Again, maybe a $1000 or $1500 a year is not a lot of money to you or the store in a years purchase, but for me it is. If I am buying from store that gives no discounts and I am paying full price, I would expect he let me play for free and not charge me to play. Otherwise, I will take that $1500 and buy else where. Again, you rather have $5 from me than per game, so again about $270 a year, but I don't even play every week so it would be even less. So I guess me spending $1500 a year is not appreciative enough that you need more? That is Games Workshop tactics, take as much money from a customer you can. Thing is, GW lets you play for free in their stores. So this is even worse than GW tactics.
Jacksmiles wrote:I've heard that gaming stores stay in business primarily thanks to tcg's like Magic the Gathering - doing events and selling singles. It's actually apparently lucrative enough to allow them to have minimal models sales and not have to worry about it.
It must be. I swear I don't know how my Gaming Café store stays in business. I am sure it's Magic cards that keep him afloat.
insaniak wrote:
Brother Michael wrote: Guys, most of you seem to be forgetting something: there is a huge number of players aged 12-18 who will be prized out of the hobby this way.
No, there isn't.
They might be priced out of playing at the store that way. But games stores aren't the only place you can play a game.
If someone is providing tables, terrain and floorspace for you to play on, it's not at all unreasonable for them to ask you for a nominal fee to help offset the cost of all of that.
Is it so unreasonable to "Not be charged" when you spend like $1500 a year at his store and no where else? I agree, if you don't buy from the store, pay to play. If you spend money at the store buy making major purchases at that store then I say you shouldn't have to play.
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
Capt. Camping wrote: There was another place a little far away called Board and Burgers. They had a restaurant and a small selection of board games to play. They only lasted 5 months since one of the co-owners wanted to get at least $2,000 month in net revenues for her alone. I think she wanted to become rich in one year.
If it's a full-time job, wanting to make $24,000 a year doesn't seem overly greedy to me.
Of course, almost all businesses lose money their first year, so you need to take a long-term view.
I don't like that system, It just lets Johnny Combobreaker have an easier 40k life and your one person paying for it. Say 65$ pooled store credit 20 going to winner 15 to runner up and the store keeps 30. But yeah your the guy that sends 5$ just to play casually has nothing to do with a tourny or any interest in competitive play is being taxed period. That owner really needs to divide casual and tourney play costs. The way he has it right now just promotes competitive bullying and loses store interest which is YOU right now. If you had to pay for just table time and not fund Johnny Combobreaker I'm sold lets go. I would be more then happy to pay for table time and space, or come to an agreement to buy something monthly. But I'm not paying into a pool I don't play or have any interest playing. I mean what if your there to play a 750 point game and don't even have 1850 he gunna hit you for 5$ then. This is almost as dumb as public money being used to fund private sports teams and there stadiums hella dumb.
What would be really sad is like 7 casuals and 2 TFG's... Everyone paying for their 40k life, seems hella legit... haha! I get where your coming from with this.
This $5 goes to store credit, but this store offers no discounts of any kind, whereas a majority of the other LGS around do, and this store also provides no additional terrain. We have a few members that make a majority of it themselves and donate.
Viridian has a great point, and it's worth mentioning that the same few people consistently win the pool because they run extremely hard lists. (4 riptides in a 1k point match anyone?) If I remember correctly the pool is $50 for 1st place and $30 for second, with the organizer (who is a volunteer, not a staff member) gets $20. So while the store gives away $100/mo in store credit, it makes ~$250/mo from the pool.
Davor wrote: In the wrong hobby? Maybe the store owner is in the wrong business. Again, maybe a $1000 or $1500 a year is not a lot of money to you or the store in a years purchase, but for me it is. If I am buying from store that gives no discounts and I am paying full price, I would expect he let me play for free and not charge me to play. Otherwise, I will take that $1500 and buy else where. Again, you rather have $5 from me than per game, so again about $270 a year, but I don't even play every week so it would be even less. So I guess me spending $1500 a year is not appreciative enough that you need more?
As has been said several times in this thread, that $5 could easily be a store voucher rather than just $5 out of pocket. For me I'm happy to just pay $5 out of pocket because I don't really buy many miniatures anymore. I could stop buying miniatures today and still not finish painting what I have for the next 2 or 3 years.
For people still building their armies it makes sense to have the table cost in the form of store vouchers to buy other stuff.
To me it just sounds like a bad business model to not discount but have free tables. It makes more sense I think to discount a little bit and then charge for table use. It's so easy to find discount models these days, it's much harder to find a place big enough with enough tables to house a decent sized club event.
Thing is, GW lets you play for free in their stores. So this is even worse than GW tactics.
Let's not forget that GW stores on average are LOSING money and they don't discount like most FLGS's do. And most GW stores only have 1 or 2 usable tables, the places that I've been to that charge money for table use have upwards of 10 tables. When a huge chunk of the store is taken up by tables, you have to consider that basically a chunk of rent is going to having tables present.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/01/29 05:36:01
Capt. Camping wrote: There was another place a little far away called Board and Burgers. They had a restaurant and a small selection of board games to play. They only lasted 5 months since one of the co-owners wanted to get at least $2,000 month in net revenues for her alone. I think she wanted to become rich in one year.
If it's a full-time job, wanting to make $24,000 a year doesn't seem overly greedy to me.
Of course, almost all businesses lose money their first year, so you need to take a long-term view.
This really highlights the problem. Way too many people act like free game hosting and cheap prices are things they're entitled to, and game stores are charities where the owners should accept poverty-level wages for the benefit of the people they serve.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
I see nothing wrong with the store charging for league play, but charging to play regardless if you're in the league or not is kinda rubbish. My FLGS only ever charges when they have a tourney event going on and then most of the money paid goes to the various prices. I'd talk to one of the other managers of the store, one that you know. Perhaps she was new and just confused on who had to pay.
I pay to go to the gym - even if I've bought my sports kit at the shop there. I don't expect the supermarket to provide me with a free cooker and dining table, even though I bought the food there. I pay to use amusement machines, even though I have games consoles at home.
Sure, they help sales, but free tables are a privilege - not a right
Fee to store credit seems like a pretty reasonable proposition in my eye. And if it's a buy in to a league - even better!
The clubs I've played at have all charged a small fee for maintenance and site rent etc. Usually in the region of £1-3. This is totally fine to me because these places need to get get funding from somewhere, and for cost of entertainment, £1-3 for an afternoon's wargaming is a pretty sound deal. That your buy in goes towards store credit seems like a really nice touch on your FLGS's part. The only money you're actually paying is the difference between the cost of cheaper webstore products, and your FLGS who you might want to be supporting anyway.
tilarium wrote: I see nothing wrong with the store charging for league play, but charging to play regardless if you're in the league or not is kinda rubbish.
I really don't understand why this is such a prevalent idea.
The table costs money to build, both for materials and you have to pay employees to build it (imagine it takes a couple of days to a week to build a table, add on the material costs and you're looking at maybe $200-400 in set up costs). The building housing the tables cost money to rent (stores with many tables need a lot of floor space, without tables they could rent somewhere cheaper or in a better location, it could easily be a couple of grand a year difference in rent).
Why is it rubbish for stores to charge money to use them? I understand that it's a form of advertising, but if that form of advertising isn't working then it's no longer advertising, it's a service which is costing them money and they can either bundle that cost in to inflated miniature prices or just charge for tables separately.
I go to a pub, I pay to use the pool table even though I'm also giving them money for booze. I don't really see how this is any different.
This really highlights the problem. Way too many people act like free game hosting and cheap prices are things they're entitled to, and game stores are charities where the owners should accept poverty-level wages for the benefit of the people they serve.
For perspective, try and find out how much commercial space costs (rental) per square foot in the area of your FLGS. Multiply that by the amount of space the table takes up (including space for the players and terrain) and you'll find out approximately how much per month a gaming table costs the store to host for a month.
For example, where I live, it costs $2-4 CAN a square foot per month. So a 4x8 gaming table, with a 2 foot clearance around it; 8x12=96, so it's $192-384 (200-400) a month. If, as a retailer, I wanted that space to recover its cost, I'd have to determine how many games would be played on it over the course of a month. Probably 2 games a day on mon-thurs (expect afternoon/evening only), 4 games/day fri-sun (20 games a week, 80 games/month). That puts a 'table fee' at $2.50-$5, That's JUST to keep the table from being a 'loss leader'.
As a retailer, you want your space to be turning a profit. If you have free tables, you have to expect to recoup it on extra sales, which needs to be double what the space costs (assuming the retailer buys his product at 1/2). So a table space like this needs to generate $400-800 in extra sales a month to break even on the rent, never mind the other expenses (wages, taxes, insurance, shoplifting, etcetera). It probably needs double this amount of sales to break even overall, so probably you're looking at a necessary $800-1600 in extra sales every month to justify the table existing.
IMO game stores tend to sit at the cheaper end of the rental spectrum for this very reason. To generate enough gamer traffic, you want 2-3 tables (one is not enough to create a community) and you need that community to generate the additional sales to justify it.
Crimson Devil wrote: It's not a guilt trip so much as surrendering their sense of entitlement to store resources they refuse to pay for. If you're not going to make purchases at a store then don't waste their time with your presence. The space you occupy could be better used by a paying customer.
I speak as a former Games store employee that has had to clean up after you. If you're going to use our lights, heat, and ruin the bathroom, then the least you can do is buy something.
"It's not a guilt trip, but here's a guilt trip"
so much as surrendering their sense of entitlement to store resources they refuse to pay for.
In my observation the people who want to play in a store without buying from the store are quite happy to pay separately for the tables.
So it's not a "sense of entitlement", it's "I don't want to support your business model".
Anyone willing to pay for a table is not who I'm talking about. The people I'm talking about are incapable of feeling guilty, or shame. The people who piss on the floor, because it's close enough.
If you don't want to support the business model that's fine. Just do it somewhere else.
And how many of those people do you actually think there are? Are you sure you're not just talking angrily to the walls?
I probably am. After working in retail for many years; I don't have much faith in basic humanity anymore.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/29 19:27:19
XCaligulaX wrote:This $5 goes to store credit, but this store offers no discounts of any kind, whereas a majority of the other LGS around do,
Do you mean you get a $5 store credit for paying this? I never herd of paying to play but then you get $5 off your next purchase. Just want to make sure I am reading this correctly. This is basically the store giving you a free pot of paint for playing. How is he making money? Or is it the pot goes to the winner in store credit?
Viridian has a great point, and it's worth mentioning that the same few people consistently win the pool because they run extremely hard lists. (4 riptides in a 1k point match anyone?)
And playing Unbound makes you TFG and is horrible to play.
If I remember correctly the pool is $50 for 1st place and $30 for second, with the organizer (who is a volunteer, not a staff member) gets $20. So while the store gives away $100/mo in store credit, it makes ~$250/mo from the pool.
Nothing wrong with this, thing is, you shouldn't be forced to pay for this if you don't want to play in the league. What did the owner of the store say?
AllSeeingSkink wrote:Let's not forget that GW stores on average are LOSING money and they don't discount like most FLGS's do. And most GW stores only have 1 or 2 usable tables, the places that I've been to that charge money for table use have upwards of 10 tables. When a huge chunk of the store is taken up by tables, you have to consider that basically a chunk of rent is going to having tables present.
Fair enough. I see your point.
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Peregrine wrote: This really highlights the problem. Way too many people act like free game hosting and cheap prices are things they're entitled to, and game stores are charities where the owners should accept poverty-level wages for the benefit of the people they serve.
I am sorry I am not seeing your point. You are correct. It's not a charity. So why are people saying stores are a charity and I need to support them? Are you saying I should be supporting this store? Isn't that me supporting a charity then?
Isn't the store suppose to offer us what we want? Look I understand bills need to be paid. Rent, hydro, water, wages etc. Thing is, if I am not getting no discounts, not vouchers to be used later, no points or anything like that, why should I keep buying from that store then? I can go else where and get discounts if I so choose to. So what is the store doing to get my business? I am sorry here Peregrin, you are basically telling us we should support the store like they were a charity instead. After all the store is suppose to give us a reason to shop there. We don't need to shop there just because it's there.
So if a person can get a game else where, can buy cheaper product else where, why shouldn't they be entitled to get what he can get? Why should this person be supporting a charity then that is out for him/herself?
*edit*
I have a store, or gaming Café that finally sells GW product now. I don't get no discounts. I get no vouchers or store credit. What I do get is games though. So now I have stopped shopping else where and getting discounts and buy through him because he is a very nice guy, and I finally can play again instead of minis I buy at a cheaper discount and just collect dust. When I can't buy minis, I pay to play, even though I don't have to so I can still support him.
Thing is, what is the Original Posters store offering the Original Poster? That is the question here. If he is not offering him anything then he should leave. This is nothing about being entitled. Like I said earlier. If the original poster buys over $500 a year product from this store while he can shop and game else where, why should he have to also pay to game especially if he is not part of the league. I believe he says he can go else where and get cheaper product if he wanted to but doesn't.
So no. This is nothing about entitlement, but what the store should be doing to entice him as a customer. You are totally wrong here.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/01/29 19:45:47
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
Brother Michael wrote: Guys, most of you seem to be forgetting something: there is a huge number of players aged 12-18 who will be prized out of the hobby this way.
No, there isn't.
They might be priced out of playing at the store that way. But games stores aren't the only place you can play a game.
If someone is providing tables, terrain and floorspace for you to play on, it's not at all unreasonable for them to ask you for a nominal fee to help offset the cost of all of that.
Yeah, I don't understand why the idea of paying a small fee is such an issue. My local store charges £1 per person per 2x4ft board. So Warmachine is £2 and 40k is £3 per person. Seems entirely reasonable to me. If you can't/won't pay the fee then you can play at people's houses.
While I'm not opposed to LGSs charging that seems ridiculously extortionate.
If the tables are decent quality why do you think it's extortionate? How much do you think it costs the store to set up that table?
It's maybe a couple of days to a week's worth of work to set up a good table, plus the cost of the raw materials, you're probably looking at a couple of hundred dollars to maybe $400 or more to set up a table. The store has rent to pay and the tables are taking up space and they have employees to pay who may be employed later than usual so people can be playing games (most of the "gaming" stores around here are open late).
Unless the table is just a cheap piece of crap set up in the corner and your store is still only open regular business hours, paying a few bucks to use the table isn't really all that much.
There's not too many other activities you can do for only a few bucks for a few hours.
So paying £12 for 2 games of 40k (your opponent has to find these charges reasonable, too) is fine? Nope. That's straight up extortion. My FLGS has great boards and great terrain and only charges £1 per person per game or £2 for all day gaming (so it's better value if you play 3+ games). These charges were only brought in after a year of it being open and the charges were more than reasonable for buying new neoprene mats and terrain. I'd love to know what this guy is spending these charges on as he should have boards rivalling Warhammer World after charging that much.
As for the cost of terrain, you do understand that GW gives FLGSs credit in their accounts to simply buy terrain with? Although not ideal for everyone, you can fit out several tables with GW terrain for literally nothing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/29 20:00:42
Seems like he is pocketing that money Ruin. The money is not going back into the tables. You know his "charity pocket".
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
It's a little high, but I didn't see where the poster said that was "per game". I assumed it was for a certain amount of time rather than for a single game. The places I've been to you pay your money for a table and you can keep using it until the store closes.
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Ruin wrote: I'd love to know what this guy is spending these charges on....
You do realise rent and wages are a thing, right? Just because your retailer buys a box of miniatures for $50 and sells it to you for $80 doesn't mean they're pocketing $30.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/01/29 20:18:38
It seems like there's two separate issues here. There's the $5 per evening table fee, which the player gets back in store credit. That's not so unreasonable If you're purchasing from the store on a regular basis anyway, then they get that money one way or another. That wouldn't bother me. It's less than going to the movies.
I think the real issue is this weekly tournament league thing, which is souring the store's meta because it's rewarding WAAC lists and behavior. I see that as being a major misstep on the part of the store. It's more apt to drive people away than it is to attract players.
Also, one thing that struck me as I read the discussion, 40K purchasing habits are going to tend to be more feast-or-famine for the LGS. Magic and other CCGs, a player can drop $10-$20 and get a reasonable value. Plus, they can put what they purchase to use almost right away, so there's lag time caused by preparing the purchase for use.
With 40K, it's hard to get much worth having for less than $50, and when you do purchase it takes time to assemble (and maybe paint) the purchase before you can use it. That makes players likely not to purchase 40K things on a weekly basis and less likely to impulse buy, because significant purchases are going cost more. So, how any store can support itself on 40K alone is beyond me. GW must take a loss on almost all of its Game Centers.
Ruin wrote: So paying £12 for 2 games of 40k (your opponent has to find these charges reasonable, too) is fine? Nope. That's straight up extortion.
I don't think you understand what "extortion" means.
I'd love to know what this guy is spending these charges on as he should have boards rivalling Warhammer World after charging that much.
Why is the store owner obligated to invest all the money they make into improving the toys you get to play with? The store owner has to make a profit, you know.
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Davor wrote: So if a person can get a game else where, can buy cheaper product else where, why shouldn't they be entitled to get what he can get? Why should this person be supporting a charity then that is out for him/herself?
You're NOT obligated to buy from a particular store. I have no problem with people saying "these prices are higher than the competition, I'm going elsewhere". The issue is the entitled attitude that store owners who charge "too much" are all greedy and immoral and how dare they make money off the community. Just look at the person I quoted, with their outraged whining about the idea that a store owner could dare to make $24k/year.
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
I think that, in the OPs situation, I wouldn't really want to pay, but if it was just a simple fee for use of table per game, I'd have no problem paying that. It's reasonable to rent my spot for a small charge, not to pay into a pool I've no interest in.
I suppose I'm a little spoiled in that I live in a metropolitan area, and there is no shortage of LGS in my area. There are 4 that are pretty close by, and another 2-3 just around an hour or so away. So for me, a store that wants me to pay $5 and offers no discounts, and all but forbids 40k play on any day other than the league nights just isn't too appealing. I've decided to start going to an LGS that's closer, offers discounts, and is much more friendly to customers.
If the non-GWFLGS here charged I'd definitely pay for it, would make me feel better about going there to play but not wanting to really buy anything but a drink or so at the time.
I do support them when I can, just I'm not going to force myself to buy something I don't even want either and I know a little thing here and there like drinks does't really help them out all that much.
Well, I think I'd suggest mentioning to the manager that you are not going to put up with this rule, since it's obviously a big problem for you.
And then ask them if your continued presence in and business with their store is worth charging you the admission fee.
At this point, if they still refuse to waive the fee, then you have your answer, and should find another place to play WH40k.
However, you also have to consider whether the admission fee is worth playing WH40k at this store, instead of the alternative. And that's something you can only figure out for yourself.
A) How much do you spend a week
B) How many additional staff does your local store owner employ
C) How many regulars does your store have
X = Y - Z
Y = ((A*0.2)*C)
Z = (B*250)+500
Y is profit
Z is costs
X is how much the store owner takes home
Assumptions
-Building rental\utilities on your LGS is £500 a week
-Average store employee takes home £250 a week (minimum wage, pretax)
-Profit margin on product is 20%
Let's do an optimistic example
I spend £100 EVERY week in my local game store
My local store has 50 REGULARS who spend the same each week as I do.
The local store employs 1 additional person
£1000 profit
-£750 upkeep
Store owner X is taking home £250 a week before taxes. National minimum wage.
Does your local store have 50 regular players spending £100 a week EACH? Mine doesn't. Running a LGS is a charity, not a get rich quick scheme.
In the area I live in, there are a lot of gaming stores. You've got The Geekery, 31st Century Games, Tabletop, Collector's Cache, a GW Store, Pulp Fiction, and Game Cafe all within the Kansas City Metro. And those are just the ones I've heard of (I've only been here 2 years). None of which charge for tables, and all of which have at least 5 6'x4' tables and enough decent terrain to cover every table.
I don't see how your proposed model would work in an already saturated market. And I'm in favor of charging for table use.
Since you brought it up, Collector's Cache actually offers the same model for their 40k league. It's optional to do so, but if you are playing in the league (Which usually features some level of campaign elements, be it a few special mission rules, or an entire campaign depending on the season,) you pay five dollars. At the end of the league, you get all of your money back in store credit. As an extra note, if you're playing in the league, you get a small discount. (It's like 5-10%, but it is certainly a discount!)
I have no problems with this system. Collector's Cache (like many LGS,) offers a wide variety of tables to use, has a ton of optional terrain (Well, a little bit of it is actually my terrain that I leave there, but that's aside the point,) and I was going to be spending that money on 40k stuff anyways.
The way I see it, it's a minor safeguard against players coming to use the tables without ever making the LGS any money. It is a business after all, and asking players to buy five dollars of product a week isn't very much.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
and shout out it's the principle of the thing, but that $5 is paying for so much more. It's helping keeping the doors of the 
