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Cassor the Damned wrote:
Just to put this into some perspective, there is actually a LGS in North Wales that charges £2.50 just to go upstairs. They have the shop downstairs were you can buy things from, and then the tables you can use upstairs for £2.50 every single time, not just on tournament night. One time I just wanted to go upstairs to look at a friends fully painted army for the first time and they said I couldn't without paying, so I stopped going there to play or buy models and just used it for my paints and brushes and the like. Buy my models online now, but it ended up making me take a long hiatus from the hobby because I was pretty miffed to be excluded from playing with my friends because I didn't have the money to buy supplies, models and now just to go upstairs.

No offense, but this is a pretty silly reason to stop playing entirely. Could you guys not find anywhere else to play? Someone's garage? Kitchen table? Basement?

 LunarSol wrote:
It's just one of the many ways LGS are trying to create a working business model in an era where they absolutely cannot compete in areas like price or selection. Table fees to store credit are just an attempt to put a little bit of requirement on the players, but it doesn't come across as a value to the customer and gets a lot of push back.

Ultimately, the problem is simply that minis games, even with their purchases made entirely in store, don't generate enough money to pay for rent and the like. $500 over 18 months? Gaming once a week lets say for 3 hours, you're talking ~$2 contribution to the store which means it takes about 3-4 players just to pay someone minimum wage to run the shop during that time, let alone make a profit.

Ultimately the entire issue is simply that there isn't enough profit in games; particularly miniatures to keep a store solvent. The a la carte purchase system creates huge stocking issues on top of a flawed distribution system that makes the market naturally converge down to a few mass volume point of sales.

LGS are just in a tough place. Many of them have become restaurants where everyone comes in and orders a glass of water. The industry needs them, but can't support them. Unfortunately, until a working business model is found an easily adapted (cafe's are awesome but liquor/food laws can be a huge challenge that varies by city/state) we're going to see a lot of attempts to get by that come across as desperate... largely because they are.

The industry does need places to play. This is absolutely true.

Hosting tournaments is the way to do it. You get people in, playing for store credit, and socializing. It's a reason to go. This weekend i'm going to buy stuff. If there was a tournament at a local store on Saturday, I'd go there, because it'd be neat to see or maybe even play.

Also, if you're hosting tournaments, you could actually do some things to balance out the game. Publish your own "store errata," such as Wraithknights really cost X, battle-demi is limited to 4 free transports, do 1000-1500 point games so they're over a little faster, etc. Have the store credit prizes distributed based on other criteria besides "first place," for instance, "most innovative list," or "best narrative player." It's subjective but it would be cool.

Also, they need to cut prices, and stop the gouging. Charging for the bathroom? I've seen it. That's dumb. Move a higher volume of stuff. Sell snacks, but not at an insane price. Frankly, if they could sell BEER, that would be amazing.

The majority of Aussie games clubs aren't in stores, but in other venues (quite often church/council halls but university spaces and school spaces are also not uncommon).

We tend to charge a fee per meeting to cover the costs of venue hire for the purpose. For us "pay to play" has been a thing for the last 30 years. You can usually check them out for free and many also do offer a free pass for the first playing visit to the club (so you can check it out for free, and then play the next time for free).

That said, stores don't do it all for free. Locally at least, it's Magic that keeps them in business, and those release days when it's full of card players, tends to make them a lot of money. Can't say the same for Miniatures gaming.

carldooley wrote:$5 a week membership charge? TOTALLY OUTRAGEOUS!!! \sarcasm
The fact that the $5 goes towards store credit means that the owner wants to ensure that people who play at his store don't just buy everything online at cheaper prices and only use his shop to game at.

Look at it from his perspective. It is a store. It has to pay rent and for its employees. He isn't saying that you cannot game there, but he is saying that you should help with the upkeep.

If the OP wants to be a bottom feeding scum sucker, and drive that particular place into the dirt while buying all their gaming supplies elsewhere, (s)he IS EXACTLY THE TYPE OF PERSON THE CHARGE IS THERE FOR!

Look at it another way; how much do you spend on snacks\drinks? easily $5 a night. $5 a week? that goes towards store credit anyway? buy a drink and enjoy yourself.

Look at it this way. I already buy a lot from that store. Why should I have to even buy more? You don't appreciate I buy from you? Well fine, now you have just given me permission to buy else where and not feel about it, since I am supporting your store with paying $5 now instead of $500.

Oh yes, a store is not a charity. Yes, a store needs to make money and has to pay for hydro, and workers and insurance, rent and what ever else. Thing is, if I am not spending that $500 or more now how are you paying for all that by just charging $5? It's bad enough I feel I am nickled and dimed to death from GW, I don't need that from my FLGS. So please explain if I show up once a week and pay $5, how is that $260 going to pay the bills easier instead of the $500+ that you could have had?

Yes when people don't buy at your store, charge them to play. When people buy at your store, let them play for free. Hell give them "tokens" or "passes" to them so they play for free.

Again how is a store going to survive on $260 a year instead of $500+ a year?

Davor wrote:

carldooley wrote:$5 a week membership charge? TOTALLY OUTRAGEOUS!!! \sarcasm
The fact that the $5 goes towards store credit means that the owner wants to ensure that people who play at his store don't just buy everything online at cheaper prices and only use his shop to game at.

Look at it from his perspective. It is a store. It has to pay rent and for its employees. He isn't saying that you cannot game there, but he is saying that you should help with the upkeep.

If the OP wants to be a bottom feeding scum sucker, and drive that particular place into the dirt while buying all their gaming supplies elsewhere, (s)he IS EXACTLY THE TYPE OF PERSON THE CHARGE IS THERE FOR!

Look at it another way; how much do you spend on snacks\drinks? easily $5 a night. $5 a week? that goes towards store credit anyway? buy a drink and enjoy yourself.

Look at it this way. I already buy a lot from that store. Why should I have to even buy more? You don't appreciate I buy from you? Well fine, now you have just given me permission to buy else where and not feel about it, since I am supporting your store with paying $5 now instead of $500.

Oh yes, a store is not a charity. Yes, a store needs to make money and has to pay for hydro, and workers and insurance, rent and what ever else. Thing is, if I am not spending that $500 or more now how are you paying for all that by just charging $5? It's bad enough I feel I am nickled and dimed to death from GW, I don't need that from my FLGS. So please explain if I show up once a week and pay $5, how is that $260 going to pay the bills easier instead of the $500+ that you could have had?

Yes when people don't buy at your store, charge them to play. When people buy at your store, let them play for free. Hell give them "tokens" or "passes" to them so they play for free.

Again how is a store going to survive on $260 a year instead of $500+ a year?

on that you're absolutely within your rights, I'm, a BIG beliver in "pay where you play" supporting my local store, but if my local store charged for me to play there, I'd be a lot less supportive.

Firstly, thanks for all the replies. I just got home from work so I've read through them all. With the exception of one post (which did escalate rather quickly) all of these have been quite informative. It seems that a lot of EU players have to pay to play, but those prices aren't anywhere near what I'm expected to pay. I am a very firm believer in supporting local businesses in anything I do, however at the same time I am very conscience of my money, being a finance major. I have a number of expensive hobbies, believe it or not 40k being one of the cheaper ones.

I buy models with a different frequency than most of my friends. When I want something, I just buy a lot of it rather than one model at a time. When I decided I wanted to run a tank-heavy IG list, I bought 7 LRBT's in the span of a month. I recently bought $500 in Daemon models all at once, and once I finish those I'm going to buy a few hundred dollars in Catachan models to play GSC. I like tackling large projects, one at a time, and moving on to the next one.

So this $5 almost "layaway" system really doesn't do me any good. If the LGS had a system in place to track my purchases so that every $50 tank I bought counted me for 2.5 months of play then sure, I wouldn't mind. But I spend enough money there as it is, and I don't want to have to constantly bring $5 in every week. As someone said previously, is the ~240 in revenue from forcing me to play worth the loss of $500? Shouldn't I as the customer be able to decide how I purchase my models? What if I just don't want to purchase any models for the time being and I accrue a large amount in store credit but have to move due to being in the military? I'd just have to dump that all on models that I don't even want. Sounds like a bad situation to me.

Honestly the only thing holding me back from never visiting that store again is the community that plays there. We have a good number of casual players that can have fun with weird lists or just laugh whether winning or losing. Fortunately for me there are a few other gaming stores around, including one that opened up recently that is only a few minute drive from my house. Not only does this place have a larger play area than storefront, the owner is a 40k fan, and he has been very accommodating to me when I want to play 40k on a non-40k day or even keep the store open a little late just so we can finish the game. He even offers a military discount as well as discounts on anything ordered through the store.

Here's my opinion. You said it yourself, you've been playing there for a year and never buy anything. If they are struggling to pay the bills, then it's partly your fault. Look in the mirror for someone to blame. I tell people all the time that the models are cheap on ebay, but nobody there will play a game with you.

You and other players like you are a drain, not a help on game stores. If you leave and never come back, the owner has not lost anything.

Support your local game stores with you DOLLARS. The floor space, tables, terrain, heat, light etc cost money. If it was easy to do you'd have crowds of people at your house or your store. Pay up or shut up.

Looks like he has paid. More then if he paid the 5$ fee.

XCaligulaX wrote:


This really puts me off because while it's absolutely within the store's rights to do anything they want with their floorspace, requiring players to pay money to play 40k seems completely ridiculous. I like to support my LGS and throughout the past year and a half I've probably spent ~$500 on models/paints, etc. I have a few members who offered to pay for me, but I still think the policy is wrong and I don't want someone to pay money just so I can play.

If your not playing in the tournament then no you shouldn't pay, if on tournament nights there isn't room then yes priority should be given to paying players. It's probably best on those nights to play at another LGS until the tournament ends.

we pay £1 per whole day of play, and considering the owner has spent £900 at least on terrain for us, we are happy, Athena games Norwich, best place in Norfolk to play in

Just to get to be bottom of this 'I do my bit by buying models' bit.
$500 of GW models will typically make the store $200 possibly less if they offer a discount.
$250 in gaming fees is pure profit.
It really is a struggle running a games store and what else can you go and do for $2.50-$5.00 per evening?

My FLGS charges $5 per table use and personally, I'm happy to pay it if it helps keep the store afloat. That may just be because this store is basically heaven and the only other store in my area is a shoebox sized Games Workshop populated by passive aggressive teenagers.

I can understand why some of you Europeans/Americans might get a little indignant over it but wargaming is somewhat less prevalent in my country.

Guys, most of you seem to be forgetting something: there is a huge number of players aged 12-18 who will be prized out of the hobby this way. There's no way in hell I'd have been able to keep playing if I had to pay €5,-/week out of a €30,-/month allowance while juggling other hobbies at the side. Hell, I think €1,- might've been too much for me, given that I stopped buying snacks on gaming nights as they cost me too much.

Nowadays, I'm able to afford that just fine, but pricing kids out of the hobby sounds both unfair and a foolish business idea.

Brother Michael wrote:
Guys, most of you seem to be forgetting something: there is a huge number of players aged 12-18 who will be prized out of the hobby this way. There's no way in hell I'd have been able to keep playing if I had to pay €5,-/week out of a €30,-/month allowance while juggling other hobbies at the side. Hell, I think €1,- might've been too much for me, given that I stopped buying snacks on gaming nights as they cost me too much.

Nowadays, I'm able to afford that just fine, but pricing kids out of the hobby sounds both unfair and a foolish business idea.

Totally agree, I avoid obe of my locals because that's £5 a night.
At £15 a month that ain't happening.

I can understand paying into leagues, as you get stuff back (well if you try...) and paying players get available tables, but you shouldn't pay to play on an empty table.

As far as the original post is concerned, I am in the 'Bull's Excrements' camp as well.
If a store has the basic house rule to charge for use of tables and scenery and what not, that is a house rule that should be visible to all, and you can choose to play there, or not.
When a store charges for a special league or tournament, and you are not part of that (by choice), they shouldn't charge a fee. Period. If they have a lack of tables, and you are there for just casual play, I can understand they prioritize and ask you to clear the table for purposes of league games or the tournament.

I actually feel bad that I never buy much from my FLGS. It is a really nice store with a really nice staff. Probably one of the best I have been to. I game there 2-3 times a month and barely ever buy anything.

I don't have time to paint, so I buy everything painted and used (off eBay or Bartertown). So there is never a reason to buy anything from my LGS except paints (for retouching), books, card packs, accessories, etc. I try to find stuff to buy, but there is usually nothing.

I wouldn't mind paying like 5 bucks per gaming day (not per game, but to use the table for however long I'm there). I have no problem supporting my local store. But I'll be damned if I am going to pay $60 for 3 Exalted Sorcerers. AND have to paint them. Sorry. I am a gamer, not a hobbyist.

FortheEmperor! wrote:
Here's my opinion. You said it yourself, you've been playing there for a year and never buy anything.

Uh. Where'd you see that, exactly?

If they are struggling to pay the bills, then it's partly your fault.

No - give the customer an incentive to be there. A business has to earn loyalty, not sell it.

Look in the mirror for someone to blame.

Good advice for a store owner who drives customers away.

I tell people all the time that the models are cheap on ebay, but nobody there will play a game with you.

But they will play at the lgs, and if you get other people to go to the lgs, it's more likely the lgs will make more money.

You and other players like you are a drain, not a help on game stores. If you leave and never come back, the owner has not lost anything.

Wrong. You want people in your store, for as much possibility of maximum revenue as you can get. If my lgs owner started a policy like this, I know myself and at least 3 others wouldn't go there, because guess what? We don't want to pay to play every time we show up. We don't need to buy something every time we show up. We buy stuff, so don't get on your logical fallacy high horse again and tell me I'm a drain because I don't want to buy something every single time I show up. In the past year, I've spent enough at this place to at least pay rent for a month. God forbid I want to save a little once in a while.

As noted previously, though, I don't buy models there anymore (about 3 months) and I don't plan on starting back up unless their order system improves or they start stocking up again.

Support your local game stores with you DOLLARS. The floor space, tables, terrain, heat, light etc cost money. If it was easy to do you'd have crowds of people at your house or your store. Pay up or shut up.

Tell my local game store to give me a reason to.

 Alex Kolodotschko wrote:
Just to get to be bottom of this 'I do my bit by buying models' bit.
$500 of GW models will typically make the store $200 possibly less if they offer a discount.
$250 in gaming fees is pure profit.
It really is a struggle running a games store and what else can you go and do for $2.50-$5.00 per evening?

best solution if you're going to charge players for table space. Give a voucher for a free day of gaming for every so much spent on product. Ocal store used this model and very few people ever had to actually pay for table space.

Our LGS just ask a monthly cotisation fee of 5$, thats for the tables and terrains etc, plus the use of commodities like glue/paint etc in case of an emergency.

But its not mandatory, its up to you if you want to pay it or not, and the service is no less because of it.

its really just to pay the eventual repairs if a table/terrain gets damaged during a game, so that people doesn't have to pay the whole thing, its like an insurance if you like.

$5/week for several hours of entertainment, use of table space and terrain, and the chance to earn that money back and then some in store credit every month? Sign me up!

$5 < a cup of coffee at Starbucks, less then a burger at whatever Fast Food place you pick, less then a couple gallons of gas to drive somewhere, way, way cheaper then any video game (unless you buy the garbage games on Steam LOL), cheaper then a book...

Yeah, $5/week is pretty much nothing in a hobby where the standard 10 model Space Marine box costs $40. Heck, you can barely buy a bottle of paint for $5, and certainly not a good paint brush.

You can stand on a and shout out it's the principle of the thing, but that $5 is paying for so much more. It's helping keeping the doors of the FLGS open. It pays for terrain to go on the tables. The chance to win more money appeals to a lot of people (that stupid gambler gene), so the chances of having an opponent to play against go up. You get to talk and hang out with fellow 40K players. Nothing in life is free. And the FLGS's that allow you to play for free don't typically stay open for long (unless the owner just sucks up the loss and covers it in other ways).

The $5/week is a win/win situation. Both for you and the store. If you have problems coming up with $5/week, you are in the wrong hobby.

It would seem that we Americans are spoiled in that we're not expected to pay for table/scenery/peripherals use. Lots of other countries are spending closer to $10 USD than the $5 OP was originally talking about. I frequent my LGS twice a week, and I will usually spend at least $10 on something. Paint pods, rattlecan, brushes, snacks, etc. The difference though is the store isn't making $10. And I am also in the minority when it comes to regulars at the store. A lot of them "have their army already". Which is fine, however where does that leave the LGS?

Exactly.

The are providing you a service-giving you tables to play on and a spot to meet up. expecting any kind of service for free is absurd.

So unless you want them to sell overpriced snacks and drinks, they need to charge for the tables.
And if they DO charge for the snacks and drinks, how quickly do you think the owner would figure he'd make more profit if said gaming tables became coffee tables and just converted into a cafe? very little I promise you.



The FLGS owes you nothing, it doesn't need to "earn your loyalty". if you are not buying there, you are not a customer and they are better off without you.

 BoomWolf wrote:

The FLGS owes you nothing, it doesn't need to "earn your loyalty".

Why go there if they don't have your loyalty? I think what you're actually saying is that simply existing should earn them a customer's loyalty. Which is an okay stance to take, it's just not mine.

if you are not buying there, you are not a customer and they are better off without you.

Some places believe there to be value in potential customers/gamers seeing things being played in their store, it opens up a whole new avenue of marketing. If a potential customer comes into the store, sees some people on tables playing 40k and having a great time, they're more likely to start up 40k or start playing at that store. Which in turn can create more revenue for the store.

Plus, this point kind of misses a lot of the conversation where almost everyone in here says they're still buying things from their store and what (if anything) they're weirded out by or opposed to is paying to use the tables.

Paying for tables is fine. In fact I prefer it, I go long periods where I don't buy any models, so if I'm paying for the table I don't need to feel compelled to buy models I don't want to keep the owner/employees happy.

I'm all for gaming shops separating their miniature sales from their "table use" instead of ramping up the prices of miniatures to compensate.

It more just sounds like the store has an arse about way of charging for tables. If they're going to charge for tables they should just charge for tables instead of making you pay a buy in for a league you have no interest in joining.

Brother Michael wrote:
Guys, most of you seem to be forgetting something: there is a huge number of players aged 12-18 who will be prized out of the hobby this way. There's no way in hell I'd have been able to keep playing if I had to pay €5,-/week out of a €30,-/month allowance while juggling other hobbies at the side. Hell, I think €1,- might've been too much for me, given that I stopped buying snacks on gaming nights as they cost me too much.

Nowadays, I'm able to afford that just fine, but pricing kids out of the hobby sounds both unfair and a foolish business idea.

I think GW has done a fine job of pricing kids out of the hobby to begin with. You need rich parents or a part time job to afford the hobby. In either case, you'd have money for the table fee. Personally, I couldn't afford to field full armies until I was gainfully employed (early 20's), and that was when minis came 5 to a blister for $10, rather than a box of 5 metal minis for $55 (CAN) or a blister of one plastic mini for $30.

Alternatively, the 5 GBP fee may be there to keep the teen crowd out, for the very reasons you state - they have no money.

Jacksmiles wrote:
Plus, this point kind of misses a lot of the conversation where almost everyone in here says they're still buying things from their store and what (if anything) they're weirded out by or opposed to is paying to use the tables.

After doing a brief scroll through the posts, there are about 7 more people who've posted in favor of paying a small fee than against paying a fee. So no, in fact almost everyone here is not weirded out or opposes paying to use tables.

I wish I could check this more often to respond but thanks everyone for for keeping things mostly civil and unfortunately I'm in my mobile so I can't quote things as I should.

As a casual player, I have no interest in having to run the type of lists that would allow me to win the pool each month. But honestly I'm okay with that. The reason I don't participate in the league isn't because I know I have very little chance of winning, it's because I play 40k to relax and relieve the stress of 50-60hr workweeks. I don't want to basically gamble when I play 40k.

In this store, the only day available for 40k is the league day each week. They only offer 40k nights one day a week, and do not permit 40k to be played on other days aside from rare circumstances. The league resets each month and starts again. In the past when I played "below the radar" so to speak, I would have to give up certain opponents or tables for league play. I'm totally okay with that. Also someone did mention selling overpriced snacks/drinks as well, which this store does. $1 for a can of soda anyone?

It strikes me as odd that so many people have such a negative view of people who would play at a store and not buy something. There seems to be a lot of "buy something or gtfo" mentality. I doubt there are many people who start a gaming store without having a passion for it (and before people start citing anecdotes yes there is an exception to every rule). Providing a space to play is more of a marketing play than anything else. Keeping customers in your store increases the likelihood of purchases. At any rate, keeping statements like that to a minimum would be appreciated. There are ways to indicate your opinion without calling people scum suckers or referring that they are a detriment to the community and store.

I am definitely in the camp that stores need to earn a customer's loyalty. By doing things like providing safe spaces for play, providing discounts, etc. Hell even just engaging customers in normal and friendly conversation can go a long way. LGS isn't the only business that is difficult to run, yet I don't see them as being exempt from providing good customer service.

I do find it interesting the number of EU players that have to pay vs US. If my store didn't try to make the league mandatory I wouldn't have any issues with it.

I have spoken to some of the other members of the local community and it seems there is a large consensus that the owner is more interested in profits tha anything else and is not particularly interested in 40k. For the time being I have decided to play at another, closer LGS that is more appreciative of their customers and is more interested in developing relationships with the clientele rather than seeing them as walking wallets.

 Dark_Apostle_Spartachris wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:
Plus, this point kind of misses a lot of the conversation where almost everyone in here says they're still buying things from their store and what (if anything) they're weirded out by or opposed to is paying to use the tables.

After doing a brief scroll through the posts, there are about 7 more people who've posted in favor of paying a small fee than against paying a fee. So no, in fact almost everyone here is not weirded out or opposes paying to use tables.

Er... are you agreeing or disagreeing with me? If agreeing, thanks I guess. If disagreeing, I think you missed the "(if anything)" smack dab in the middle there.

Edit: That would explicitly mean that there are people who are neither weirded out by nor opposed to paying to use tables, but if they're weirded out or opposed to anything, it's paying to use tables as opposed to spending money at the store in general. Just to clear that up (and that's why I don't understand the point of your post).

Jacksmiles wrote:

 Dark_Apostle_Spartachris wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:
Plus, this point kind of misses a lot of the conversation where almost everyone in here says they're still buying things from their store and what (if anything) they're weirded out by or opposed to is paying to use the tables.

After doing a brief scroll through the posts, there are about 7 more people who've posted in favor of paying a small fee than against paying a fee. So no, in fact almost everyone here is not weirded out or opposes paying to use tables.

Er... are you agreeing or disagreeing with me? If agreeing, thanks I guess. If disagreeing, I think you missed the "(if anything)" smack dab in the middle there.

Edit: That would explicitly mean that there are people who are neither weirded out by nor opposed to paying to use tables, but if they're weirded out or opposed to anything, it's paying to use tables as opposed to spending money at the store in general. Just to clear that up (and that's why I don't understand the point of your post).

You're saying the majority of poster are against paying for table use, correct?

 Dark_Apostle_Spartachris wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:

 Dark_Apostle_Spartachris wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:
Plus, this point kind of misses a lot of the conversation where almost everyone in here says they're still buying things from their store and what (if anything) they're weirded out by or opposed to is paying to use the tables.

After doing a brief scroll through the posts, there are about 7 more people who've posted in favor of paying a small fee than against paying a fee. So no, in fact almost everyone here is not weirded out or opposes paying to use tables.

Er... are you agreeing or disagreeing with me? If agreeing, thanks I guess. If disagreeing, I think you missed the "(if anything)" smack dab in the middle there.

Edit: That would explicitly mean that there are people who are neither weirded out by nor opposed to paying to use tables, but if they're weirded out or opposed to anything, it's paying to use tables as opposed to spending money at the store in general. Just to clear that up (and that's why I don't understand the point of your post).

You're saying the majority of poster are against paying for table use, correct?

Nope. I'm saying if a given person in this thread has said they're against paying for table use, they've also generally said they still spend money at the store regardless. I'm saying that very few people (if any - I don't remember seeing one but I'm not going to reread the thread every time to check) have said something to the effect of "I don't spend any money at the store at all" AND "I would refuse to pay for table use." At least one of those statements has been the opposite for almost everyone in here, so saying things like the poster I originally quoted in the post that you quoted is totally out of whack with reality and is an emotional response to something that isn't happening in this thread.