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I wanted to get some opinions on this and see if this is a common occurrence.

So my LGS has one night dedicated to 40k, and it is part of a monthly league where everyone buys in $5/week and the winner and runner up win store credit. The $5 buyin goes to store credit.

As a very casual gamer, I have no interest in playing competitivly and would rather just play games to relieve stress and have a fun night. I know I would never win this league because we have some players who run extremely hard lists. You can't blame them considering there is money on the line.

My issue comes in because I have no desire to compete, nor do I want to pay money just to play the game. I have been playing at this store for over a year without buying in and it was never an issue. I played only if the league players all had matches and there was always plenty of table space for me to play without putting a league player out. This past week I was confronted by the store manager who had never worked during 40k nights before but she made it a ppint to ensure every player present had paid their $5. I told her I come to play but do not participate in the league. She responded by saying I could only play 40k if I payed money regardless.

This really puts me off because while it's absolutely within the store's rights to do anything they want with their floorspace, requiring players to pay money to play 40k seems completely ridiculous. I like to support my LGS and throughout the past year and a half I've probably spent ~$500 on models/paints, etc. I have a few members who offered to pay for me, but I still think the policy is wrong and I don't want someone to pay money just so I can play.

Has anyone encountered a similar situation? I'm on the verge of just playing at a different store but I've made some good friends here and I enjoy playing with them.

Fortunately I'm deploying next month so it won't be an issue soon, but I wanted to enjoy 40k while I could before I am removed from the hobby for 6 months and this really throws a wrench in my enjoyment of 40k.

Well, we pay 5 Euro (for 40k, 30k, AoS, WMH, Bolt action, Infinity, X-Wing) per gaming day. Gaming days are Saturday and Wednesday. For box games like BB, the owner charges 1 Euro per game per day.
Its fine for the gaming group.

That is definitely complete and utter garbage. Why would you buy into a league that you're not playing in? I really don't know what you can do about it other than try and convince the manager or hope that this was only a one time thing, as you said they're never there on 40k night. They definitely know you're not in the league and can't win anything out of it?

Hmm. I know one of my LGS has a league running (organized by players) that charges 10 bucks per month, but you can still play outside of the league for free, or even in the league if you dont care about the prizes. Charging to just play in general is more than a bit greedy.

I will try engaging with the owner over his policy and see if we can come to an agreement.

From my perspective, it just looks like the owner sees the play area as another revenue stream. I'm also not sure if the board game players or MtG players are required to pay to play.

If nothing comes of it, I'll play at a different store until I leave and when I come back maybe things will be different or I can just play like I was before, just staying under the radar.

Answer is simple. Pay the $5 but don't buy from there anymore. You are still supporting the store by making purchase there. I would tell this manager, "you are perfectly correct, here is the $5 for me to play, but now I will take my $500 and it will go to other shops now."

It's not right. I would speak to the owner of the store. If he let you play without charging you and now this manager does, tell the owner you spent over $500 at his store and support him. If he will be charging, then you don't need to make big purchase from him anymore.

A league with a paid-prize is a-okay, and lots of places do this, but it's for the idea that you can have people commit better to a league when they have some skin to lose. I also have seen stores charge for games when those games would put the store past its normal operating hours (in which case, this money goes to keeping a staff member on hand, which makes sense). However, I have never seen a store say that you MUST participate in the league in order to play there.

From the sounds of it, this manager didn't or doesn't realize the distinction. I would bring this up with the store's owner. I bet they will say differently. If they don't, tell your story to the other members of the league and to us on the internetz, as you are also entirely within your right to complain about a store's policy and entice other people to not go there.

EDIT: One thing to note; during league night, I would imagine that league players would have preference on tables. If you're taking up a table, and all other tables are full, and there's a paying league player waiting in the wings for your game to play, it's only fair to let the paying league player have a game. But if there's lots of space available, then you should be able to play a non-league game just fine. This is something that's also pretty common when I've seen places get packed for Magic The Gathering tournaments. They tell people that there's no room to play unless you're in the tournament, but that's often because there really is NO ROOM to play.

I have never actually been to any GS that has charged (and I have been to an incredibly large amount of stores)

I'd be fine with it if my money hasn't been so tight recently and the store really needed it, but even then I'd prefer if it was optional.

I think its utter garbage that you need to pay for a league you don't even want to play in. I'm sorry to hear about your situation.

One shop here has a membership thing that allows you to use the tables, terrain, etc and gives a slight discount. Basically this is because there is limited space so the fee is to make sure people support the store since it does the same for them by building and painting terrain and having extras of blasts, dice, and such for use.

$5 a week membership charge? TOTALLY OUTRAGEOUS!!! \sarcasm
The fact that the $5 goes towards store credit means that the owner wants to ensure that people who play at his store don't just buy everything online at cheaper prices and only use his shop to game at.

Look at it from his perspective. It is a store. It has to pay rent and for its employees. He isn't saying that you cannot game there, but he is saying that you should help with the upkeep.

If the OP wants to be a bottom feeding scum sucker, and drive that particular place into the dirt while buying all their gaming supplies elsewhere, (s)he IS EXACTLY THE TYPE OF PERSON THE CHARGE IS THERE FOR!

Look at it another way; how much do you spend on snacks\drinks? easily $5 a night. $5 a week? that goes towards store credit anyway? buy a drink and enjoy yourself.

 carldooley wrote:


If the OP wants to be a bottom feeding scum sucker, and drive that particular place into the dirt while buying all their gaming supplies elsewhere, (s)he IS EXACTLY THE TYPE OF PERSON THE CHARGE IS THERE FOR!

That escalated rather quickly.

Jacksmiles wrote:

 carldooley wrote:


If the OP wants to be a bottom feeding scum sucker, and drive that particular place into the dirt while buying all their gaming supplies elsewhere, (s)he IS EXACTLY THE TYPE OF PERSON THE CHARGE IS THERE FOR!

That escalated rather quickly.

sorry, but I equate such things with table fees, and I have zero problems throwing some money towards the shopkeeper for time on his\her tables. Even more so when it goes towards store credit as well. It isn't wasted money.

 carldooley wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:

 carldooley wrote:


If the OP wants to be a bottom feeding scum sucker, and drive that particular place into the dirt while buying all their gaming supplies elsewhere, (s)he IS EXACTLY THE TYPE OF PERSON THE CHARGE IS THERE FOR!

That escalated rather quickly.

sorry, but I equate such things with table fees, and I have zero problems throwing some money towards the shopkeeper for time on his\her tables. Even more so when it goes towards store credit as well. It isn't wasted money.

I get that. I was just reading along your post nodding my head and going "mhm, mhm," then suddenly "bottom feeding scum sucker" and I was like "Oh damn there's some anger."

But yeah I've heard of places charging to use their tables, and I'm glad I don't have that at my lgs, but I can see reasons behind it.

My LGS unfortunately also charges money for games. Still, €5,- a week is just too much. Also, it 'forces' people to come back each week, or their prize chance is gone.

However, what I find worse is implicitly encouraging cheese and scummy behaviour by offering prize money.

Eh...it's their shop. They'll either sink or swim based on how people respond to the process. As a consumer you don't have any kind of "right" to play in a retail space. It's good business for more stores because people buy stuff out of convenience if they're playing there (even if it's just sodas/snickers).

All you can do is offer some feedback so the store knows where you stand. A store should be earning your business...if they're not - find somewhere else to play and purchase stuff elsewhere.

Carl is absolutly right.

I had my FLGS closed exactly because of this self-entitled attitude. now we don't have anything except the odd gathering, or if one of the players had its own table at home.

Keeping a FLGS costs money. alot of it. you got to pay rent, electricity, employee wages, insurance, etc.
And in the age of internet shopping being often cheaper, they are NOT having an easy time keeping up.

Putting up tables means more space, more bills and more money they have to recover SOMEHOW. especially from people who just come to play and never buy-as they cost money to the shop, rather than simply not earning any.

Paying 5$ a week is nothing, especially if it goes towards store credit.
And considering you said you spent around 500$ in the past year, so store credit is defiantly finding use for you, unless you don't actually shop at said FLGS, and if that's the case you are not their customer but a bother, and they have no need for you to be there and hog the space from their actual costumers.

There was a FLGS in Maidstone who apparently charged for gaming terms.

Was

Davor wrote:
Answer is simple. Pay the $5 but don't buy from there anymore. You are still supporting the store by making purchase there. I would tell this manager, "you are perfectly correct, here is the $5 for me to play, but now I will take my $500 and it will go to other shops now."

It's not right. I would speak to the owner of the store. If he let you play without charging you and now this manager does, tell the owner you spent over $500 at his store and support him. If he will be charging, then you don't need to make big purchase from him anymore.

I agree with this. Talk to the owner of the story, calmly and politely and point out the argument above.

I always buy something where I play (nearly every time as well). If the store I go play at started charging to play there I would potentially consider somewhere else. I would have to weigh the enjoyment I get at the store vs playing at my place.

Personally I think this is perfectly reasonable. You're not actually losing any money, you just have to spend it at the store. It's basically a 'customers get to use the tables' policy.

Honestly.. even with profits from Mark-up. Is the retailer really making much money with this $5 charge if it's going to store credit?

Assuming 10 people take part in this tournament every week, that's only $2400.00 a year. Only problem is, that's $2,400.00 in store credit, not $2,400 in profits.

Now I've never owned a business or a game store, but I'd estimate more than half that $2,400.00 will end up going to non-overhead costs associated with the products bought with that store credit. So in the end that game store has maybe $1,200.00 going towards overhead costs.

I understand margins can be thin, and every dollar counts with a business, but this is not what will drag that FLGS down. What will drag it down, is taking away reasons for games to walk into their store vs just buying what they want online, or making their own game boards, or going to a FLGS that does have free tables.


Like some players, I'm lucky to have a FLGS that doesn't charge to use their gaming tables or terrain. If my FLGS charged per table, I can guarantee you I wouldn't buy anything from them, not out of spite necessarily, but because there's nothing to get me in the door. I've spent about $500.00 in products in the last year too from my FLGS.

That's the whole point of offering free use of the tables. It gets people in the door. That is half the battle of making them spend money on a hobby like 40k.

I know I personally wouldn't pay (even to myself in store credit) to play at a store's tables. I buy things at the lgs, but it's mostly convenience buys. The lgs needs to earn my money, and having the tables gets me in the door, and gets me to buy a few things rather than save money buying at home (since I'm already there and I can take it home that day/night). If they started charging for casual table use, I'd get my own table set up with the money I would spend just visiting there and never have a reason to go there again.

They need me more than I need them. Obviously that isn't true for everyone, but it is for me.

EDIT: Also keep in mind part of the reason I wouldn't pay into store credit to play at my lgs is that the place loses orders once in a while, takes forever to get in the ones they don't (2 months last time), and are thinning down their 40k stock. So my experience with them is pretty "meh" and I've been sitting on some store credit for a while from mtg trade-ins that I have nothing to spend on with them except for paints as I need them.

I just think it's poor business practice. If I were running a game store I would want games to be going on all the time because they can attract attention and encourage sales. I totally get a league type of set up for only one night a week or wahtever, but having to pay for tabletime any other day seems dumb. I could see it being reasonable only if they're short on space and use the tables for competing customers or events.

A pool hall will charge for table time, but that's a completely different business model.

The lgs in my old town did something similar to that. I think it was like $5 per day, or if you pay $20 in merchandise the day is free. $50 of merchandise gets you a week or month or something, or you could just buy an annual membership for like $100. All in all, i thought it was pretty fair, since the money went toward new terrain, tables, and operating costs.

My FLGS charges £1 for a game (or to paint). 2+ games will cost you £2. Zero complaints from the customers and the funds have been used to buy snazzy neoprene mats and other stuff.

I can definitely see both sides of the argument. While I sympathize with OP, I'll back the store.

You may buy stuff when you go in, but I'd need to take my shoes off to count the number of people that I see on a weekly basis who never buy anything. No drinks, no snacks, and definitely no models.

Hell, we even have a dude who will pretty much make whatever he wants into 40k models. Everything from Hot Wheels motorcycles for Bikes (they have marines on them, but they're definitely bits from online), to $5 model airplanes he gets from Dollar General. He's a nice enough dude, but the actual 40k stuff he has is all from eBay Dark Vengeance.

It sucks, but it's a harsh reality a lot of stores face. We only have 1 store in our area that's been around for more than 10 years.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

A pool hall will charge for table time, but that's a completely different business model.

Is it really, though? Their primary revenue is food and drink. A LGS' would be models and such. Once you factor those out, now you're left with Pool Halls getting revenue for using their stuff. Table, balls, rack, etc. LGS usually allow you to use tables, terrain, and periphreals for free.

I'd say it makes sense for a LGS to charge a small fee.

We have a board game place here that rents out space to play.

But I don't think any of the LGS's do something like that. Sure we have paid in leagues and what not, but no pay-to-play situations.

Honestly, if you have other places to play, I'd go there. If they're willing to let you slide until the end of the league and then pay from then on with the new league, maybe give it a go? But when there's more than one option, this just seems like shooting yourself in the foot.

Ultimately, a Hobbyshop charging $5 for a tournament, and making the prize store credit, is totally understandable. Charging you to play on tournament night is fine to me, they're devoting their floorspace to the tourney.

That said, hobby shops do a lot of damage to their own reputation by gouging people and generally doing shady stuff. I bought a TAC squad at a local shop. I figured i'd support them a little because i'd heard good things. When i got home, it became apparent that the box had been opened and resealed, with the bases swapped out for smaller ones.

I also have found that it's impossible to enter a hobby shop without the proprietor complaining about GW, or WH40k. It's a turn off. I don't care if you have problems with GW, I'm not here to listen to that.

So if it's a perfect store, with reasonable prices, who don't pull BS with boxes, doesn't show favoritism to some patrons, encourages a quality gaming experience, and are just generally all around pleasant, and then they charge $5 for a tournament? No big deal. But when they're doing all kinds of BS on top of it, that's an issue.

It's just one of the many ways LGS are trying to create a working business model in an era where they absolutely cannot compete in areas like price or selection. Table fees to store credit are just an attempt to put a little bit of requirement on the players, but it doesn't come across as a value to the customer and gets a lot of push back.

Ultimately, the problem is simply that minis games, even with their purchases made entirely in store, don't generate enough money to pay for rent and the like. $500 over 18 months? Gaming once a week lets say for 3 hours, you're talking ~$2 contribution to the store which means it takes about 3-4 players just to pay someone minimum wage to run the shop during that time, let alone make a profit.

Ultimately the entire issue is simply that there isn't enough profit in games; particularly miniatures to keep a store solvent. The a la carte purchase system creates huge stocking issues on top of a flawed distribution system that makes the market naturally converge down to a few mass volume point of sales.

LGS are just in a tough place. Many of them have become restaurants where everyone comes in and orders a glass of water. The industry needs them, but can't support them. Unfortunately, until a working business model is found an easily adapted (cafe's are awesome but liquor/food laws can be a huge challenge that varies by city/state) we're going to see a lot of attempts to get by that come across as desperate... largely because they are.

 LunarSol wrote:
It's just one of the many ways LGS are trying to create a working business model in an era where they absolutely cannot compete in areas like price or selection. Table fees to store credit are just an attempt to put a little bit of requirement on the players, but it doesn't come across as a value to the customer and gets a lot of push back.

Ultimately, the problem is simply that minis games, even with their purchases made entirely in store, don't generate enough money to pay for rent and the like. $500 over 18 months? Gaming once a week lets say for 3 hours, you're talking ~$2 contribution to the store which means it takes about 3-4 players just to pay someone minimum wage to run the shop during that time, let alone make a profit.

Ultimately the entire issue is simply that there isn't enough profit in games; particularly miniatures to keep a store solvent. The a la carte purchase system creates huge stocking issues on top of a flawed distribution system that makes the market naturally converge down to a few mass volume point of sales.

LGS are just in a tough place. Many of them have become restaurants where everyone comes in and orders a glass of water. The industry needs them, but can't support them. Unfortunately, until a working business model is found an easily adapted (cafe's are awesome but liquor/food laws can be a huge challenge that varies by city/state) we're going to see a lot of attempts to get by that come across as desperate... largely because they are.

Yep, exactly this.

Just to put this into some perspective, there is actually a LGS in North Wales that charges £2.50 just to go upstairs. They have the shop downstairs were you can buy things from, and then the tables you can use upstairs for £2.50 every single time, not just on tournament night. One time I just wanted to go upstairs to look at a friends fully painted army for the first time and they said I couldn't without paying, so I stopped going there to play or buy models and just used it for my paints and brushes and the like. Buy my models online now, but it ended up making me take a long hiatus from the hobby because I was pretty miffed to be excluded from playing with my friends because I didn't have the money to buy supplies, models and now just to go upstairs.

Now I can afford it and have returned, but I made it a point to inform the manager that his sales tactic had caused me to leave and that I didn't think much of him or the store for it. It's fair to say we REALLY don't like each other very much. It was and is the only store in the area, so I felt it was somewhat extortionate. Especially considering that a lot of us were just kids, and could barely afford the hobby as it was. I think I was around 12, and I used to have around £100 from my birthday money to make last the whole year, and used to almost exclusively spend it in their store. I used to play every Friday and Saturday which would have been £5 a week and £20 a month just to play the game[i] and leaving me no money to actually buy models or anything else.

I recognize that at the end of the day it is their floor space to do with as they please, but I personally felt and still do feel that more consideration should have been put into action about what it does to the hobby and the people who simply can't afford it. At the end of the day, he drove 4 of my friends out with me when we were all kids and would have been customers for decades to come, damaging the hobby.

Sorry to rant, and to the OP this isn't supposed to take away from your experience. It's just to say I sympathize and fully understand where you're coming from. If I was you, I'd just go to the Store Manager and express how you feel it isn't fair and that you already support the store with your purchases. You shouldn't have to essentially give store credit to someone else with no hope or intention of winning it back. The charge is for league players who have a chance of winning it back when you are not in the league and so cannot win it back.