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Nobody refuses to play EC because they strike first or BA with their +1 to-wound and +1I and ap2at initiative. They can wipe out most of your squad before you even get to swing, but yeah it's the guys that rely on not very relialbe psykic powers who break the game.

I think I'm experiencing a hard case of Schrödinger's 1ksons.


I'm somehow getting complaints about them being both OP as feth and completely shafted at the same time.

Who's been saying they are shafted?

BoomWolf is.

Ah, I see.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Who's been saying they are shafted?

On every forum I've been to this is the first I've heard of that. Most people rank then as top tier. They definitely have the ability to be on of the strongest in legion on legion conflicts if you take the right choices.

They aren't immune from bad choices or overspending on upgrades but planned out well they do very well.

Titanicus wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Who's been saying they are shafted?

On every forum I've been to this is the first I've heard of that. Most people rank then as top tier. They definitely have the ability to be on of the strongest in legion on legion conflicts if you take the right choices.

They aren't immune from bad choices or overspending on upgrades but planned out well they do very well.

Overspending...

Like my 335 point Jetbike praetor?

 EmberlordofFire8 wrote:


Like my 335 point Jetbike praetor?

You forgot the melta bombs!

 EmberlordofFire8 wrote:
BoomWolf is.

No I don't. But people I talk to seem to think nothing except Magnus is good. For some bizarre reason.

Practically everything except the plasma cannons is great.

They have serious weaknesses. If built for psychic might, they are only going to outnumber Custodes and Mechanicum, every casualty will hurt. The Legion drawbacks can also cause problems. A failed perils is pinning tests all around, losing all your ICs (i.e. More expensive single dudes that drive your model count down), the leadership negative can utterly break you.

Anyone crying they are OP is being chicken little.

I strongly suspect that people will only realise how bad that pinning check for every legiones astartes model is once a few games are out and anyone taking a single combat praetor is going to really suffer because he and any sekhmet are going to attract str8+ ap2 fire as well as be a giant magnet for dreadnaughts. If they don't play a psycher heavy legion, they won't realise that when you're throwing 5-6 powers a turn, perils is usually 2-3 times a game if not more if you really need a power to go off. Ld 8 means a 28% chance to be pinned, Ld 9 is a 17% chance. That's, on average, 1-2 units a turn that're going to be pinned unless you've got some way of making them fearless (command squad in range, psychic power like mental fortitude, etc). That's a huge blow since your movement phase has already gone and unless that unit was sitting away from everything on an objective, that's a huge blow. Just wait 'til your terminator deathstar jumps out of their spartan 4" away from the enemy, the praetor/Magnus casts Warp Speed and then perils, gets pinned and they're forced to sit around like chumps snapfiring their bolters 'cause now they can't charge. Same deal for a heavy weapons team that gets perfect timing cast on them and then can't hit anything because they'd had to hit the deck.

When the psychic phase works, it works very, very well. When it fails and that's what your entire legion is built around, you're screwed. I've rarely seen a shooting phase where most of the enemies guns failed to fire (it can happen with certain things like Orks and such), but I've often seen a psychic phase go tits up.

 Drasius wrote:
I strongly suspect that people will only realise how bad that pinning check for every legiones astartes model is once a few games are out and anyone taking a single combat praetor is going to really suffer because he and any sekhmet are going to attract str8+ ap2 fire as well as be a giant magnet for dreadnaughts. If they don't play a psycher heavy legion, they won't realise that when you're throwing 5-6 powers a turn, perils is usually 2-3 times a game if not more if you really need a power to go off. Ld 8 means a 28% chance to be pinned, Ld 9 is a 17% chance. That's, on average, 1-2 units a turn that're going to be pinned unless you've got some way of making them fearless (command squad in range, psychic power like mental fortitude, etc). That's a huge blow since your movement phase has already gone and unless that unit was sitting away from everything on an objective, that's a huge blow. Just wait 'til your terminator deathstar jumps out of their spartan 4" away from the enemy, the praetor/Magnus casts Warp Speed and then perils, gets pinned and they're forced to sit around like chumps snapfiring their bolters 'cause now they can't charge. Same deal for a heavy weapons team that gets perfect timing cast on them and then can't hit anything because they'd had to hit the deck.

When the psychic phase works, it works very, very well. When it fails and that's what your entire legion is built around, you're screwed. I've rarely seen a shooting phase where most of the enemies guns failed to fire (it can happen with certain things like Orks and such), but I've often seen a psychic phase go tits up.

Very well said, Drasius. Thousand Sons will live and die by those psychic power rolls.

I really just like the shiny red paint scheme and the fall of Magnus. I'm a bit nervous about the army I'm building, to be honest.

You have ways to deal with thouse pinning tests - Axis of Dessolution, Command squads, Magnus giving the entire army Ld 10. And perills will not hurt you that much if you take Arcane Litanies, who can only be taken by ICs, but in most cases they are the ones who are going to get perills.
I bet when DA and BA get actualy normal rules and characters with Angelus there will just as much talk about how broken they are.

 hordrak wrote:
You have ways to deal with thouse pinning tests - Axis of Dessolution, Command squads, Magnus giving the entire army Ld 10. And perills will not hurt you that much if you take Arcane Litanies, who can only be taken by ICs, but in most cases they are the ones who are going to get perills.
I bet when DA and BA get actualy normal rules and characters with Angelus there will just as much talk about how broken they are.

yes, but a point a lot of people seem to be missing is that you need to pay a LOT for that consistancy. AoD needs full troops, command squads are a decent bit of points for a small fearless bubble, Magnus is 500 points, litanies are 10 PPM on independent characters only, etc.

 Brennonjw wrote:

 hordrak wrote:
You have ways to deal with thouse pinning tests - Axis of Dessolution, Command squads, Magnus giving the entire army Ld 10. And perills will not hurt you that much if you take Arcane Litanies, who can only be taken by ICs, but in most cases they are the ones who are going to get perills.
I bet when DA and BA get actualy normal rules and characters with Angelus there will just as much talk about how broken they are.

yes, but a point a lot of people seem to be missing is that you need to pay a LOT for that consistancy. AoD needs full troops, command squads are a decent bit of points for a small fearless bubble, Magnus is 500 points, litanies are 10 PPM on independent characters only, etc.

Well, there have to be downsides, otherwise it would be like 40k.

You can circumvent the pinning issue at least by taking only Cataphracts. They cannot go to ground and thus are immune to pinning.

HandofMars wrote:
You can circumvent the pinning issue at least by taking only Cataphracts. They cannot go to ground and thus are immune to pinning.

they can't? didn't know that!

bikes are a good deterrent to pinning as well

 Vector Strike wrote:

HandofMars wrote:
You can circumvent the pinning issue at least by taking only Cataphracts. They cannot go to ground and thus are immune to pinning.

they can't? didn't know that!

They can Go to Ground and are still effected by Pinning normally, unless I'm missing something.
The wargear entry for Cataphractii and Terminator Armour makes no mention of Going To Ground, let alone saying that they can never do so.

The only things different about Cataphractii is the no running/overwatch and 4++.

Withdrawn, that was tossed to me in discussion and I didn't fact check it since it seemed appropriate. So yeah, too early to cry TS OP!

Yeah don't worry. There seems to be a lot of that lately (flat out wrong information thrown around) .

I mean there are people (not here on Dakka, but on some of the Facebook groups I'm in) saying that ML3 Pavoni Praetors can cast Iron Arms and have it buff not only himself but the entire unit of Sehkmet he's joined.
Hysteria over a S7/9 T7 2+/3++ Smashing Force Maul unit of Sehkmet that doesn't even actually exist. Oh, plus there a people who think that the T Son cults allow them to select powers from their key disciplines on top of casting on a 3+ for... some reason (And I'm not talking about Sekhmet... I'm taking about Veteran Squads and ICs).

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Yeah don't worry. There seems to be a lot of that lately (flat out wrong information thrown around) .

I mean there are people (not here on Dakka, but on some of the Facebook groups I'm in) saying that ML3 Pavoni Praetors can cast Iron Arms and have it buff not only himself but the entire unit of Sehkmet he's joined.
Hysteria over a S7 T7 2+/3++ Smashing Force Maul unit of Sehkmet that doesn't even actually exist. Oh, plus there a people who think that the T Son cults allow them to select powers from their key disciplines on top of casting on a 3+ for... some reason (And I'm not talking about Sekhmet... I'm taking about Veteran Squads and ICs).

Yeah, and TS players are drinking the blood from babies and sacrificing virgins... Realy suprising how people fail to read a few pages that are found all over the internet.

Shhhh that's supposed to be a secret!

kronk wrote:Thousand Sons will live and die by those psychic power rolls.

I really just like the shiny red paint scheme and the fall of Magnus. I'm a bit nervous about the army I'm building, to be honest.

You can make a Sons army with minimal Psy powers and just work off the Arcana benefits, though at that point, you have to wonder why you're not choosing another legion instead with better benefits and theme bonuses. As for the scheme, totally agree, even if I wasn't a dedicated Sons player from 40k, that candy red armour would definately tempt me away from whatever other inferior legion I was playing. At the end of the day, what's the worst that can happen, you lose at playing toy soldiers?

Matt.Kingsley wrote:I mean there are people (not here on Dakka, but on some of the Facebook groups I'm in) saying that ML3 Pavoni Praetors can cast Iron Arms and have it buff not only himself but the entire unit of Sehkmet he's joined.
Hysteria over a S7/9 T7 2+/3++ Smashing Force Maul unit of Sehkmet that doesn't even actually exist. Oh, plus there a people who think that the T Son cults allow them to select powers from their key disciplines on top of casting on a 3+ for... some reason (And I'm not talking about Sekhmet... I'm taking about Veteran Squads and ICs).

While an IC isn't a BoP and Sekhmet can't take Bio, one thing people tend to overlook is that regular legion terminators can be given a mastery level and BoP for 25 point just like vets and they CAN roll on biomancy. Sure, 1/6 games you're going to get Haemorrage and be useless, but 1/6 games you're going to get Iron Arm and another 1/6 you're going to get Warp Speed and that's pretty brutal for a 200 point unit. The issue is that people see 2W force weapon ML2 Sekmet for a pittance more and get all excited and forget how brutal normal vanilla termies can get. Precognition on a unit of terminators? Sure, bring on as many volkites as you like, have fun with that.

You raise a valid point there!

Actually my most terminator looking Sekhmet are all done up in pavoni symbols too. I dunno losing the save increase for raptora And the extra wound and other benefits for Sekhmet doesn't feel worth 1 roll on biomancy


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(Tho you can still be raptora and roll biomancy but you lose the casting bonus and the fluff gods cry)

Well some read it as Sekhmet being able to roll on Biomancy (because the T Sons rules say every Psyker can roll on any discipline other than Malefic, which technically applies to Sekhmet as well as unlike Ammitar nothing explicitly removes that from them).

In theory you can get S7 T7, 3++ Force Maul Sekhmet with that reading... it's just that it's unreliable. You need 3 carbon copy units to have a good chance of getting at least one unit of Iron Arm Sekhmet... and at that point you can probably just ignore them and shoot the other expensive Sekhmet units to death and just play keep-away. It's not like it's overly hard to outrun Cataphractii.

And yeah if you get the right powers Brotherhood Terminators of any sort can be brutal.

Regular termies are inferior to Sekhmet, who are only 5 pts more per model. Yes they can roll on biomancy, but 2 wounds, stubborn, ML2 and the ability to deepstrike are just to good. Shred on the bolters is also not a bad thing to have. An equal unit of legion termies costs 220 vs 255 but has only 1 wound, is 1 ml less and isn't stubborn. Besides Sekhmet can take Levitation to compensate for the lach of mobility in Cataphractii armour. Seems like TS will soon become THE terminator legion.

Shredding ammo on Corvidae cultists is quite good too.

Drasius wrote:While ... Sekhmet can't take Bio, one thing people tend to overlook is that regular legion terminators can be given a mastery level and BoP for 25 point just like vets and they CAN roll on biomancy. Sure, 1/6 games you're going to get Haemorrage and be useless, but 1/6 games you're going to get Iron Arm and another 1/6 you're going to get Warp Speed and that's pretty brutal for a 200 point unit. The issue is that people see 2W force weapon ML2 Sekmet for a pittance more and get all excited and forget how brutal normal vanilla termies can get.

hordrak wrote:Regular termies are inferior to Sekhmet, who are only 5 pts more per model. Yes they can roll on biomancy, but 2 wounds, stubborn, ML2 and the ability to deepstrike are just to good. Shred on the bolters is also not a bad thing to have. An equal unit of legion termies costs 220 vs 255 but has only 1 wound, is 1 ml less and isn't stubborn. Besides Sekhmet can take Levitation to compensate for the lach of mobility in Cataphractii armour. Seems like TS will soon become THE terminator legion.

Case in point.

Yes, Sekhmet are very good for their points (I wouldn't have bothered with Asphyx bolts from a mechanical standpoint, but when you're the premier terminator unit, you get the legions fancy toys) and ~50'ish points for shredding bolters and a second wound is generally a decent deal (not that it matters against power fists and demolisher cannons) but again, if you're not being deliberately obtuse with rules interepretations to get Bio Sekhmet, then being restricted to Telekinesis and Pyro IS another tradeoff that has to be made. Yes, you're almost certainly taking raptora arcana anyway because +1 invo is too good and yes, you are taking levitation and something else off telekinesis because pyro sucks and you're casting telekine powers on 3's because raptora arcana. You're now virtually locked into a build +/- combi's and a chainfist or two. If you want to do something different or just need to shave ~50 points somewhere, "regular" psychic terminators have their place, especially with the various buffs afforded by BoP for Iron Arm/Warp Speed/Precognition/Hammerhand and psycher-only buffs like Perfect Timing/Foreboding/Shrouding/Sanctuary/Gate. Yes, the assurance of 2W and picking powers is nice, but "regular" termies aren't useless by any stretch of the imagination.

 Drasius wrote:

Drasius wrote:While ... Sekhmet can't take Bio, one thing people tend to overlook is that regular legion terminators can be given a mastery level and BoP for 25 point just like vets and they CAN roll on biomancy. Sure, 1/6 games you're going to get Haemorrage and be useless, but 1/6 games you're going to get Iron Arm and another 1/6 you're going to get Warp Speed and that's pretty brutal for a 200 point unit. The issue is that people see 2W force weapon ML2 Sekmet for a pittance more and get all excited and forget how brutal normal vanilla termies can get.

hordrak wrote:Regular termies are inferior to Sekhmet, who are only 5 pts more per model. Yes they can roll on biomancy, but 2 wounds, stubborn, ML2 and the ability to deepstrike are just to good. Shred on the bolters is also not a bad thing to have. An equal unit of legion termies costs 220 vs 255 but has only 1 wound, is 1 ml less and isn't stubborn. Besides Sekhmet can take Levitation to compensate for the lach of mobility in Cataphractii armour. Seems like TS will soon become THE terminator legion.

Case in point.

Yes, Sekhmet are very good for their points (I wouldn't have bothered with Asphyx bolts from a mechanical standpoint, but when you're the premier terminator unit, you get the legions fancy toys) and ~50'ish points for shredding bolters and a second wound is generally a decent deal (not that it matters against power fists and demolisher cannons) but again, if you're not being deliberately obtuse with rules interepretations to get Bio Sekhmet, then being restricted to Telekinesis and Pyro IS another tradeoff that has to be made. Yes, you're almost certainly taking raptora arcana anyway because +1 invo is too good and yes, you are taking levitation and something else off telekinesis because pyro sucks and you're casting telekine powers on 3's because raptora arcana. You're now virtually locked into a build +/- combi's and a chainfist or two. If you want to do something different or just need to shave ~50 points somewhere, "regular" psychic terminators have their place, especially with the various buffs afforded by BoP for Iron Arm/Warp Speed/Precognition/Hammerhand and psycher-only buffs like Perfect Timing/Foreboding/Shrouding/Sanctuary/Gate. Yes, the assurance of 2W and picking powers is nice, but "regular" termies aren't useless by any stretch of the imagination.

I agree, but Sekhmet are still superior to normal termies in most cases. But Legion Tartaros Terminators with Biomancy are good, they are just not as good as Sekhmet in Cataphractii armour with the Raptora cult under GotCK RoW. Outside of that RoW they have their uses like killing line troops and sweeping them. If you get Warp speed they will do that with ease.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actualy not only the Sekhmet are relatively cheap, but the Ammitara also are much better and cost less than the Recon Marines. For 135 pts you get Recon Marines with BS5, Carapace Armour, inbuilt Stealth, sniper rifles and Ml1. A Recon squad with Carapace armour, Camelioline (for stealth) and Sniper rifles costs 150 pts, but they can not get a mastery level and are BS4. The only "bad" side is that they are FA, but I think that's not a big deal.

 hordrak wrote:

 Drasius wrote:

Drasius wrote:While ... Sekhmet can't take Bio, one thing people tend to overlook is that regular legion terminators can be given a mastery level and BoP for 25 point just like vets and they CAN roll on biomancy. Sure, 1/6 games you're going to get Haemorrage and be useless, but 1/6 games you're going to get Iron Arm and another 1/6 you're going to get Warp Speed and that's pretty brutal for a 200 point unit. The issue is that people see 2W force weapon ML2 Sekmet for a pittance more and get all excited and forget how brutal normal vanilla termies can get.

hordrak wrote:Regular termies are inferior to Sekhmet, who are only 5 pts more per model. Yes they can roll on biomancy, but 2 wounds, stubborn, ML2 and the ability to deepstrike are just to good. Shred on the bolters is also not a bad thing to have. An equal unit of legion termies costs 220 vs 255 but has only 1 wound, is 1 ml less and isn't stubborn. Besides Sekhmet can take Levitation to compensate for the lach of mobility in Cataphractii armour. Seems like TS will soon become THE terminator legion.

Case in point.

Yes, Sekhmet are very good for their points (I wouldn't have bothered with Asphyx bolts from a mechanical standpoint, but when you're the premier terminator unit, you get the legions fancy toys) and ~50'ish points for shredding bolters and a second wound is generally a decent deal (not that it matters against power fists and demolisher cannons) but again, if you're not being deliberately obtuse with rules interepretations to get Bio Sekhmet, then being restricted to Telekinesis and Pyro IS another tradeoff that has to be made. Yes, you're almost certainly taking raptora arcana anyway because +1 invo is too good and yes, you are taking levitation and something else off telekinesis because pyro sucks and you're casting telekine powers on 3's because raptora arcana. You're now virtually locked into a build +/- combi's and a chainfist or two. If you want to do something different or just need to shave ~50 points somewhere, "regular" psychic terminators have their place, especially with the various buffs afforded by BoP for Iron Arm/Warp Speed/Precognition/Hammerhand and psycher-only buffs like Perfect Timing/Foreboding/Shrouding/Sanctuary/Gate. Yes, the assurance of 2W and picking powers is nice, but "regular" termies aren't useless by any stretch of the imagination.

I agree, but Sekhmet are still superior to normal termies in most cases. But Legion Tartaros Terminators with Biomancy are good, they are just not as good as Sekhmet in Cataphractii armour with the Raptora cult under GotCK RoW. Outside of that RoW they have their uses like killing line troops and sweeping them. If you get Warp speed they will do that with ease.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actualy not only the Sekhmet are relatively cheap, but the Ammitara also are much better and cost less than the Recon Marines. For 135 pts you get Recon Marines with BS5, Carapace Armour, inbuilt Stealth, sniper rifles and Ml1. A Recon squad with Carapace armour, Camelioline (for stealth) and Sniper rifles costs 150 pts, but they can not get a mastery level and are BS4. The only "bad" side is that they are FA, but I think that's not a big deal.

Also, regular termies get access to heavy weapons like Autocannon and flamers. Sekhmet don't get that. I will agree that Ammitara are great, and FA tends to be a relatively empty slot (unless you running Scars).
I have a question about Khenetai. Is 10 men the max, or can I run 15 or so as a single squad (and maybe put them in a Land Raider or Spartan...)?