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 Deadshot wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
The ability of the lasgun power pack to taker a charge from an electrical supply or convert light or heat energy is another of those "magic" things that the audience takes for granted, too.

I can't help thinking that I bet some types can be charged by shaking, too, like self-winding watches.

"Commissar we're out of ammo and the 'nids are closing in, what do we do?"

"There's only one thing we can do sergeant."

"What's that ma'am?"

"DANCE!"

That might actually be a viable tactic. I could just imagine the Nids stopping dead to reconsider this scene. I imagine conversation being something like this

Hormagaunt: "Ughhh..."

Synapse: "Boss, they're dancing..."

Hive Mind "We probably shouldn't absorb them, they'll make us ret***ed"

Another victory for Lady Commissar Boogiera.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
The ability of the lasgun power pack to taker a charge from an electrical supply or convert light or heat energy is another of those "magic" things that the audience takes for granted, too.

I can't help thinking that I bet some types can be charged by shaking, too, like self-winding watches.

The idea of grimdark Imperial soldiers fighting with clockwork skeleton-watch-style laser weapons is really, really appealing to the inner steampunk in me...

Edit: So that's why Catachans have such massive forearms! Here was me thinking that it was mostly down to a steady supply of 'Saucy Sisters (of Battle)' magazine...

Converting heat energy to ammo has a few interesting implications too.

"Sir! Our power-packs are running in empty!"

"Alright men, here's what we're going to do. I want all of you to hold out your weapon in front of you,and on the count of three Charge those burna boys! With any luck the heat from the flamers will recharge our lasguns."

"But sir, won't that lead to us being scorched to death, then being stuck in close combat with orks?"

"Hmm... New plan men! Hold your weapon out and charge, but this time Affix Bayonets too!"

 gnome_idea_what wrote:
Converting heat energy to ammo has a few interesting implications too.

"Sir! Our power-packs are running in empty!"

"Alright men, here's what we're going to do. I want all of you to hold out your weapon in front of you,and on the count of three Charge those burna boys! With any luck the heat from the flamers will recharge our lasguns."

"But sir, won't that lead to us being scorched to death, then being stuck in close combat with orks?"

"Hmm... New plan men! Hold your weapon out and charge, but this time Affix Bayonets too!"

I really want to play a game in the character of General Melchett from Blackadder and just shout 'CHARGE' and footslog all my Guardsmen across the field into combat, while my general sits on an objective right at the back surrounded by tanks.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

I really want to play a game in the character of General Melchett from Blackadder and just shout 'CHARGE' and footslog all my Guardsmen across the field into combat, while my general sits on an objective right at the back surrounded by tanks.

Don't worry men, we'll be right behind you! About 25 miles behind to be precise.

I'll preface all Orders by shouting 'DARLING!'

This is going to be awesome!

So how come they don't have a SAW equivalent version? I can buy that the multilaser battery is too large except for a large crew served weapon. Taking that as a given why is there not a squad auto version. To keep in line with the lasgun itself it could use the same size batteries, but either multiple ones or require more frequent reloads?

 Frazzled wrote:
So how come they don't have a SAW equivalent version? I can buy that the multilaser battery is too large except for a large crew served weapon. Taking that as a given why is there not a squad auto version. To keep in line with the lasgun itself it could use the same size batteries, but either multiple ones or require more frequent reloads?

It'd be pointless given the life expectancy and style of the Imperial Guard. For a start, each Guardsman has a life expectancy measured in hours once they hit the battlefield. On top of that, the IG operates on the idea that each squad should be dedicated to a particular task. The platoon has HWS, SWS, Snipers, Infantry and other specialists, each doing their job and only their job because to mix n match in a platoon who are expected to die within the week is a waste of munitions and time. The Infantry squad either charges into the enemy to soak up bullets, or tie the enemy for a few minutes while tanks are brought to bear, or give the artillery a target to aim at, or something similar. A lasgun does the job because its meant to fire off a few rounds and then the wielder dies. A SAW would do the same. In terms of defending, as a rapid-fire LMG of sorts, Heavy Weapon Squads or Teams within the Infantry unit do the same job with a Heavy Bolter, but can be bigger, faster and better because they are a static defence.

That's basically something that 40k simply doesn't have, for whatever reason. Everyone uses various special weapons instead.

Although there is that new weapon the Militarum Tempestus get - that's basically a rapid-fire version of their standard hellgun.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
So how come they don't have a SAW equivalent version? I can buy that the multilaser battery is too large except for a large crew served weapon. Taking that as a given why is there not a squad auto version. To keep in line with the lasgun itself it could use the same size batteries, but either multiple ones or require more frequent reloads?

It'd be pointless given the life expectancy and style of the Imperial Guard. For a start, each Guardsman has a life expectancy measured in hours once they hit the battlefield. On top of that, the IG operates on the idea that each squad should be dedicated to a particular task. The platoon has HWS, SWS, Snipers, Infantry and other specialists, each doing their job and only their job because to mix n match in a platoon who are expected to die within the week is a waste of munitions and time. The Infantry squad either charges into the enemy to soak up bullets, or tie the enemy for a few minutes while tanks are brought to bear, or give the artillery a target to aim at, or something similar. A lasgun does the job because its meant to fire off a few rounds and then the wielder dies. A SAW would do the same. In terms of defending, as a rapid-fire LMG of sorts, Heavy Weapon Squads or Teams within the Infantry unit do the same job with a Heavy Bolter, but can be bigger, faster and better because they are a static defence.

You're not getting it. Why are "heavy weapon teams" (which is what I was referring to (remember they are not separate from their squad, the ability to change them is only a gaming pricing function) not also wielding some sort of SAW weapon? All the arguments about lasguns hold for squad support fire as well. After all, thats why they typically have the same caliber in modern armies, for ease of logistics. I sense a modelling opportunity...

 Frazzled wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
So how come they don't have a SAW equivalent version? I can buy that the multilaser battery is too large except for a large crew served weapon. Taking that as a given why is there not a squad auto version. To keep in line with the lasgun itself it could use the same size batteries, but either multiple ones or require more frequent reloads?

It'd be pointless given the life expectancy and style of the Imperial Guard. For a start, each Guardsman has a life expectancy measured in hours once they hit the battlefield. On top of that, the IG operates on the idea that each squad should be dedicated to a particular task. The platoon has HWS, SWS, Snipers, Infantry and other specialists, each doing their job and only their job because to mix n match in a platoon who are expected to die within the week is a waste of munitions and time. The Infantry squad either charges into the enemy to soak up bullets, or tie the enemy for a few minutes while tanks are brought to bear, or give the artillery a target to aim at, or something similar. A lasgun does the job because its meant to fire off a few rounds and then the wielder dies. A SAW would do the same. In terms of defending, as a rapid-fire LMG of sorts, Heavy Weapon Squads or Teams within the Infantry unit do the same job with a Heavy Bolter, but can be bigger, faster and better because they are a static defence.

You're not getting it. Why are "heavy weapon teams" (which is what I was referring to (remember they are not separate from their squad, the ability to change them is only a gaming pricing function) not also wielding some sort of SAW weapon? All the arguments about lasguns hold for squad support fire as well. After all, thats why they typically have the same caliber in modern armies, for ease of logistics. I sense a modelling opportunity...

Because those are HEAVY weapons teams, who carry weapons too big for a single man to operate like Heavy Bolters. They are supposed to entrench, fire like all hell broke loose (most likely it did) and stay there until they are relieved of duty (which means they or the enemy are dead). Modern soldiers get SAW because it helps them win the fight and stay alive, whereas the average Guardsman is not supposed to survive. A lasgun is given to a soldier so he can fight back somewhat, but its still worth more than their life, and is relatively cheap to produce. A SAW would be more expensive and be completely useless because the holdier dies within an hour as he is chucked into the meat grinder. Its a completely pointless thing to do.

Its like this: YOu have a goldfish. Its going to die in 3 weeks. You could buy premium goldfish food, 18 servings, $30. This means you need 2 so it can eat once a day. $60. Or you can just buy the generic, paper flakes for $5, which will last 4 months. With the extra money saved, you could buy 3 more goldfish. Same as guardsman. The savings between giving out a SAW and another lasgun means you could train another squad of Guardsman for the grinder. Either way, you're goldfish and you're guardsman will be dead by Tuesday.

AGain you're not saying why the heavy weapons teams don't have a laser generated heavy weapon (light multi laser).

And its your theory about the lasgun and the trooper is meh. The same argument is made about all the Guard, and they still get heavy weapons, plasma guns, melta guns, orbital atillery blah blah.

If a lasgun is excellent for logistics then its logical that they employ a crew served automatic fire support weapon as well-hence my earliler notation about the multilaser.

 Frazzled wrote:
AGain you're not saying why the heavy weapons teams don't have a laser generated heavy weapon (light multi laser).

And its your theory about the lasgun and the trooper is meh. The same argument is made about all the Guard, and they still get heavy weapons, plasma guns, melta guns, orbital atillery blah blah.

If a lasgun is excellent for logistics then its logical that they employ a crew served automatic fire support weapon as well-hence my earliler notation about the multilaser.

Apologies, I misunderstood your point.

Lasweaponry in general has poor Armour penetration, that's why. Look at the tabletop stats as a reference. ML is Str 6 AP6, vs HB Str 5 Ap 4. The ML is slightly more powerful, but cant even pierce the average Guardsman's flak armour, whereas the HB can mow through not only enemy humans except the incredibly rare PA human, almost all Ork, Tau and Eldar foot soldiers, as well as the lighter Necron infantry and some of the medium Tyranids like Warriors. Obviously, the fluff and rules are not exactly lined up but it gives a frame of reference to the capacities of both.

With a heavy weapon or SAW you are looking for more stopping power and more penetration than your standard issue rifle. The ML is superbly more powerful than the Lasgun but lacks the penetration, where they HB does both. Plus, the HB is a weapon already fitted to so many vehicles that the Imperium produces the ammunition in the quadrillions.

It could also be a matter of efficiency. Where the lasgun is small and man-portable, using relatively little power, the ML might require a battery so large that it wouldn't be man-portable, and the man-portable battery such as used in a Lascannon, too small to run a sustained or high ROF as a SAW ML variant would be doing. It's fine for a Lascannon, which fires a single shot, then swaps out to recharge while another takes it place, or fires a few shots then swaps, but for a high ROF, high powered laser weapon, maybe not.

I don't think all guard follow the 'they're worth less than the enemies bullets' philosophy.
That's just an amusing meme that people take too literally.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I don't think all guard follow the 'they're worth less than the enemies bullets' philosophy.
That's just an amusing meme that people take too literally.

Well its Government policy. You get the odd Commissar or commander who cares, like Cain or Gaunt, who's novels are more based on contemporary band of brothers stories and films than general IG doctrine. Its not a meme, human beings are 10 a penny in the Imperium and are treated as such; Expendable and inexhaustable assets.

The truth of the matter is that the Imperium is large enough and has the population to be able to use human soldiers as expendable assets. If thousands or tens of thousands are lost to retake a planet from cultists, then the cultists have lost a planet and the IG has gained a planet, only there are so many more guardsmen and potential (read: conscriptable) guardsmen out there compared to the number of cultists out there that even if five or more guardsmen were lost for every cultist defeated the IoM would still be winning in numbers.

A "SAW" doesn't have to be a weapon that has "more" or "better" stopping power. It just needs to suppress the enemy. In the Marines our Squad Automatic Weapon is the M27 IAR which is basically a more expensive M4a1. It's automatic and accurate but uses the same bullet as the M4 carbine. With its role it doesn't need to be a heavy hitting weapon. Just needs to be able to effectively suppress the enemy either by volume of fire (the M249 LMG which is still used at the company level) or by accurate suppression (the new M27 IAR, fire team level)

Realistically, the guard would have a SAW in their squad but it's likely overlooked. The weapon would likely be the same strength but fires a little bit faster and is a little more accurate. However you couldn't really represent it on the tabletop game because of the heavy bolter profile, multi-laser profile etc... so it is likely overlooked.

So in short they very likely have it, but it's overlooked in the game.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I don't think all guard follow the 'they're worth less than the enemies bullets' philosophy.
That's just an amusing meme that people take too literally.

Actually, its quite literal. Guardsmen literally are worth less then the bullets it takes to kill them.

The Imperium's population, and the spare manpower they generate, is insanely massive.

If we assumed that the Imperium's ~1 million planets on average have a population equal to modern day Earth, we end up with a population of 7,390,000,000,000,000. Thats 7.39 quadrillion people.

With a growth rate of 1/2%(well below modern earth), the Imperium has an increase in population of 369,500,000,000,000. That's 369.5 trillion.

The Imperium would have hundreds of trillions of recruitable people each year before they had to worry about negative growth rates.

 gnome_idea_what wrote:
The truth of the matter is that the Imperium is large enough and has the population to be able to use human soldiers as expendable assets. If thousands or tens of thousands are lost to retake a planet from cultists, then the cultists have lost a planet and the IG has gained a planet, only there are so many more guardsmen and potential (read: conscriptable) guardsmen out there compared to the number of cultists out there that even if five or more guardsmen were lost for every cultist defeated the IoM would still be winning in numbers.

They still have to have weaponry and force multipliers however. Else the guard wouldn't be equipped with anything but a rock.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I don't think all guard follow the 'they're worth less than the enemies bullets' philosophy.
That's just an amusing meme that people take too literally.

Actually, its quite literal. Guardsmen literally are worth less then the bullets it takes to kill them.

Thats not a physical possibility and goes against much of the fluff, and fundamental concepts of economics (not 40K writer's biggest strength). You have to shipp all those bodies across space, and you have to expand vast sums to "grow" that human asset asset. Not to mention the foodstuffs and other support needed to keep that human alive in the field and all the kit you just made for that guy.

A bullet is cheap as dirt.

Frazzled wrote:

 gnome_idea_what wrote:
The truth of the matter is that the Imperium is large enough and has the population to be able to use human soldiers as expendable assets. If thousands or tens of thousands are lost to retake a planet from cultists, then the cultists have lost a planet and the IG has gained a planet, only there are so many more guardsmen and potential (read: conscriptable) guardsmen out there compared to the number of cultists out there that even if five or more guardsmen were lost for every cultist defeated the IoM would still be winning in numbers.

They still have to have weaponry and force multipliers however. Else the guard wouldn't be equipped with anything but a rock.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I don't think all guard follow the 'they're worth less than the enemies bullets' philosophy.
That's just an amusing meme that people take too literally.

Actually, its quite literal. Guardsmen literally are worth less then the bullets it takes to kill them.

Thats not a physical possibility and goes against much of the fluff, and fundamental concepts of economics (not 40K writer's biggest strength). You have to shipp all those bodies across space, and you have to expand vast sums to "grow" that human asset asset. Not to mention the foodstuffs and other support needed to keep that human alive in the field and all the kit you just made for that guy.

A bullet is cheap as dirt.

Yes, a bullet is cheap as dirt and you can buy 1 inch of dirt with the lives of a thousand men. Humanity in 40k breeds faster than they can make and build weaponry, especially when each bullet needs 3 Hail Maries and a dip in holy oil to make sure it works right. And you also assume the Imperium has social welfare. They provide jobs for everyone to do, and give them enough to survive on. The work people do is worth infinitely more to the Imperium than the rewards they receive.

usmcmidn wrote:A "SAW" doesn't have to be a weapon that has "more" or "better" stopping power. It just needs to suppress the enemy. In the Marines our Squad Automatic Weapon is the M27 IAR which is basically a more expensive M4a1. It's automatic and accurate but uses the same bullet as the M4 carbine. With its role it doesn't need to be a heavy hitting weapon. Just needs to be able to effectively suppress the enemy either by volume of fire (the M249 LMG which is still used at the company level) or by accurate suppression (the new M27 IAR, fire team level)

Realistically, the guard would have a SAW in their squad but it's likely overlooked. The weapon would likely be the same strength but fires a little bit faster and is a little more accurate. However you couldn't really represent it on the tabletop game because of the heavy bolter profile, multi-laser profile etc... so it is likely overlooked.

So in short they very likely have it, but it's overlooked in the game.

You're still thinking in terms of modern warfare and not future warfare with aliens. A SAW can take the same round as the rifle, but in a fight where the enemy can just shrug off your shot like its nothing, firing those bullets 3 times faster is totally pointless. You wouldn't fire your M4a1 at an Abrams, its gonna do gak sll squared, and you wouldn't do gak all with a M27 either. Suspression weapons are in reality a deterrant, you fire it to say "I have a SAW, back the feth up" but if all the enemy soldiers were bulletproof a la Superman, it wouldn't deter them. Similarly, if you're Lasgun isn't keeping the Ork or Nid at bay, a lasrifle that shoots 3 times faster wont do the job either. For that you need better penetration to get past their armour, and a high stopping power (Str) to actually hurt them in the first place. Furthermore, when on the offensive, the IG dont need to suppress enemies because they have A) Artillery B) the intention of getting shot to waste ammunition. When on the defense, as stated, the heavier, hard-hitting Heavy Bolter does a much better job that a LasMG

No, the Human is worth less than the bullet it takes to kill him.

Yes, they have to pay to feed him and ship him across space, but that doesn't make that guardsmen any more valuable than another person. Guardsmen are cheaper to replace than equipment.

None of the infantry the Guard faces can ignore Las shots, and having squad dies with weapons that fire faster is a good idea.

 Bobthehero wrote:
None of the infantry the Guard faces can ignore Las shots, and having squad dies with weapons that fire faster is a good idea.

Infantry that can ignore or pretty much ignore Lasguns; Chaos Marines, Ork Eavy Armour, Tau Battlesuits, Eldar Wraithguard/blades, Tyranid Warriors, Zoanthropes, Lictors, Genestealers, Biovores, Pyrovores, Shrikes, Primes, Hive Guard, Tyrant Guard, any Necron heavier than a Warrior, any Daemon. Essentially anything denoted by a T4 or 4+ save on the table top, is far too tough or well armoured to expect their flashlight to damage. They may well do some harm, but dont count on it.

Other things the Guard are most definitely going to face that ignores their weapon: Terminators, Meganobs, any Monstrous Creature in the Nid Codex, most Necron heavy infantry, Eldar Wraithlords, Ctan, vehicles, Tau Riptides. Basically anything with a T5 or above, or a 2+ save, any Daemon.

Things can probably tank a fair few lasshots: All MEQ, all Orks, all Daemons, all Tau, all Eldar, all Tyranids apart from the Gaunts and Rippers.

Things that the Lasgun is a reliable and viable option for killing; Humans not wearing Flak armour or better. So this means Chaos Cultists, Gretchin, and unarmed civilians.

It might be able to tank a few lasgun shots, but when you got 10+ guardsmen shooting, you better take cover, now add one guardman having as much firepower as 3-4 other guardsmen, it makes quite a difference.

Also why Chaos WArrior can ignore lasguns but MEQ can tank a fair few shots?

Regardless, nothing T6 and less is immune to mass fire is my point and having guardsmen contributing more to that is not a bad thing.

Throwing men at the enemy until they run out makes zero sense.
You have to grow those humans until adult hood, that's a lot of food you're putting in. You have to transport them. And if they genuinely had no purpose other than to die why does the Imperial Guard put so much effort into getting their boys home again? Flak vests, lasguns, command structures.

In the fluff, someone like Gaunt isn't an anomaly because he doesn't drown the enemy in bodies, in Gaunt's Ghosts every regiment they encounter fights with some degree of logic. The most backwards Imperial fighting style I've yet read about is the Aexegarins whom fight a WWI+1 level of attrition. But they're still building trenches, burying dead and doing all the stuff they did in WWI to not-die.

The idea of Lord Marshal Zzap Brannigan's Imperial Guard tactica is amusing, it's up there with 'drive me closer so I hit them with my sword'. But it's not actually supported by the fluff, gameplay or even the laws of physics.
Especially when you consider that las weapons + generator = infinite power.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Throwing men at the enemy until they run out makes zero sense.
You have to grow those humans until adult hood, that's a lot of food you're putting in. You have to transport them. And if they genuinely had no purpose other than to die why does the Imperial Guard put so much effort into getting their boys home again? Flak vests, lasguns, command structures.

In the fluff, someone like Gaunt isn't an anomaly because he doesn't drown the enemy in bodies, in Gaunt's Ghosts every regiment they encounter fights with some degree of logic. The most backwards Imperial fighting style I've yet read about is the Aexegarins whom fight a WWI+1 level of attrition. But they're still building trenches, burying dead and doing all the stuff they did in WWI to not-die.

The idea of Lord Marshal Zzap Brannigan's Imperial Guard tactica is amusing, it's up there with 'drive me closer so I hit them with my sword'. But it's not actually supported by the fluff, gameplay or even the laws of physics.
Especially when you consider that las weapons + generator = infinite power.

The issue is you are looking at humans as being the primary tool on the battlefield. Thats not the case in 40k.

40k humans are lasgun delivery systems, which necessitates some protection and other investment, but they are in practically unlimited supply. They're going to be draining your food resources anyway, so you might as well use them.

The Guardsmen themselves of course don't want to die, and will attempt to stay alive. But the attitude of the higher command is going to view them as expendable. If they survive, then you've managed to create some veterans who might actually be worth something and you're ahead. But its no big deal if they die, because you have trillions more coming up behind them.

You're not going to waste them, but the definition of waste is rather loose. There is practically no number of losses as far as body count goes that is unacceptable. If you can capture a planet by throwing waves upon waves of guardsmen at the enemy, then that is what will get done. If there is an easier way that doesn't involve losing tons of guardsmen, they'll do that, but only because its easier. Not because losing guardsmen is a problem.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Throwing men at the enemy until they run out makes zero sense.
You have to grow those humans until adult hood, that's a lot of food you're putting in. You have to transport them. And if they genuinely had no purpose other than to die why does the Imperial Guard put so much effort into getting their boys home again? Flak vests, lasguns, command structures.

In the fluff, someone like Gaunt isn't an anomaly because he doesn't drown the enemy in bodies, in Gaunt's Ghosts every regiment they encounter fights with some degree of logic. The most backwards Imperial fighting style I've yet read about is the Aexegarins whom fight a WWI+1 level of attrition. But they're still building trenches, burying dead and doing all the stuff they did in WWI to not-die.

The idea of Lord Marshal Zzap Brannigan's Imperial Guard tactica is amusing, it's up there with 'drive me closer so I hit them with my sword'. But it's not actually supported by the fluff, gameplay or even the laws of physics.
Especially when you consider that las weapons + generator = infinite power.

The issue is you are looking at humans as being the primary tool on the battlefield. Thats not the case in 40k.

40k humans are lasgun delivery systems, which necessitates some protection and other investment, but they are in practically unlimited supply. They're going to be draining your food resources anyway, so you might as well use them.

The Guardsmen themselves of course don't want to die, and will attempt to stay alive. But the attitude of the higher command is going to view them as expendable. If they survive, then you've managed to create some veterans who might actually be worth something and you're ahead. But its no big deal if they die, because you have trillions more coming up behind them.

You're not going to waste them, but the definition of waste is rather loose. There is practically no number of losses as far as body count goes that is unacceptable. If you can capture a planet by throwing waves upon waves of guardsmen at the enemy, then that is what will get done. If there is an easier way that doesn't involve losing tons of guardsmen, they'll do that, but only because its easier. Not because losing guardsmen is a problem.

I absolutely agree that higher Imperial command has a callous disregard for life,playing a game of politics more than one of war.
But from ~regimental level downwards you start getting things much more like modern warfare. Every book I have read detailing the deployment of Imperial Guardsmen shows them as being used rather similar to how a logical military would work. Guard may be innumerable, but so are the Guard's enemies.
The idea of just literally throwing Guardsmen at the enemy with no regard for anything else is not supported by anything. Not fluff, not rules, not logic, not physics. The only time I have ever heard anything like this was Kuriskov or whatever his name was in the old Guard codex, who actually literally did do this. But he's the exception not the rule, he was a character in the codex because of that being his way of waging war, not because he's John Doe the Imperial commander.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Throwing men at the enemy until they run out makes zero sense.
You have to grow those humans until adult hood, that's a lot of food you're putting in. You have to transport them. And if they genuinely had no purpose other than to die why does the Imperial Guard put so much effort into getting their boys home again? Flak vests, lasguns, command structures.

In the fluff, someone like Gaunt isn't an anomaly because he doesn't drown the enemy in bodies, in Gaunt's Ghosts every regiment they encounter fights with some degree of logic. The most backwards Imperial fighting style I've yet read about is the Aexegarins whom fight a WWI+1 level of attrition. But they're still building trenches, burying dead and doing all the stuff they did in WWI to not-die.

The idea of Lord Marshal Zzap Brannigan's Imperial Guard tactica is amusing, it's up there with 'drive me closer so I hit them with my sword'. But it's not actually supported by the fluff, gameplay or even the laws of physics.
Especially when you consider that las weapons + generator = infinite power.

The issue is you are looking at humans as being the primary tool on the battlefield. Thats not the case in 40k.

40k humans are lasgun delivery systems, which necessitates some protection and other investment, but they are in practically unlimited supply. They're going to be draining your food resources anyway, so you might as well use them.

The Guardsmen themselves of course don't want to die, and will attempt to stay alive. But the attitude of the higher command is going to view them as expendable. If they survive, then you've managed to create some veterans who might actually be worth something and you're ahead. But its no big deal if they die, because you have trillions more coming up behind them.

You're not going to waste them, but the definition of waste is rather loose. There is practically no number of losses as far as body count goes that is unacceptable. If you can capture a planet by throwing waves upon waves of guardsmen at the enemy, then that is what will get done. If there is an easier way that doesn't involve losing tons of guardsmen, they'll do that, but only because its easier. Not because losing guardsmen is a problem.

I absolutely agree that higher Imperial command has a callous disregard for life,playing a game of politics more than one of war.
But from ~regimental level downwards you start getting things much more like modern warfare. Every book I have read detailing the deployment of Imperial Guardsmen shows them as being used rather similar to how a logical military would work. Guard may be innumerable, but so are the Guard's enemies.
The idea of just literally throwing Guardsmen at the enemy with no regard for anything else is not supported by anything. Not fluff, not rules, not logic, not physics. The only time I have ever heard anything like this was Kuriskov or whatever his name was in the old Guard codex, who actually literally did do this. But he's the exception not the rule, he was a character in the codex because of that being his way of waging war, not because he's John Doe the Imperial commander.

The reason all the books you read are like that is because "Affix Bayonets! Charge!" Doesn't make a good novel. A novel putting grimdark bullet sponges being playing out the plot of Apocalypse Now, Full Metal Jacket or Saving Private Ryan is a much more entertaining book, because its more relatable.

But here is where it does follow fluff; Regimental Commander chooses to save men instead of taking ground; Friendly Neighbourhood Commissar comes along and BLAMS him. He promotes the 2IC to in charge. Rinse and repeat until he finds a leader who'll follow company policy and take the enemy ground.


Also, to readdress, shooting a tank with 5.56 isnt going to do gak, whether there's 40 rounds a minute or 400 coming at it. Looking to fluff, can you name me a single time a Lasgun ever took down a Carnifex, Wraithlord, Destroyer or Terminator? It didn't, because those creatures shrug off such meagre firepower every time. A lasgun may be as powerful as an assault rifle, AKA, an autogun, but such weapons are insignicant compared to almost any other weapon in the setting.

Even when it isn't novels, or when the tactics of the Guard are purely a secondary foot note in the book next to for example the Astartes, the Guard are playing smart. The only time I ever heard of Imperial Guard using human-wave tactics pure and simple was that commander Kursikov guy, whom through conscripts at fortifications till the fortifications gave out. But those were firstly conscripts not enlisted me, and secondly he was the exception to the rule, and as such earnt himself some rules in the codex.

There's a difference between pushing your luck to take the ground, and a suicidal charge which is going to get all those men killed and still not claim the objective.

I don't see how that is relevant, it's almost like Guardsmen don't often find themselves staring down a Carnifex and always have support weapons anyways.

 Frazzled wrote:
They still have to have weaponry and force multipliers however. Else the guard wouldn't be equipped with anything but a rock.

IG are not the "alpha foxtrott i'm 6clicks oscar mike freedom special operators". Never have been. And as such they are not kitted out to their teeth with medic, marksman, GL boy, AT soldier and all the gak modern armies have all in one squad. They use WW1 and WW2 tactics and force organization. In WW1 machineguns where heavy weapons. This is still the case in 40k. They have medium and heavy machinegun teams, grenadelaunchers etc. More than enough force multipliers for them to sting in numbers.

a "SAW" is a light machine gun, it just shoots common riflemans projectiles with slightly increased fire rate, bigger ammobox and better cooling. Useless against anything that is not common infantry, just like lasguns. Which is why it makes no sense to use them. LMG also requires 2 persons to carry enough ammo.