The humble Lasgun - a genuine miracle of warfare.

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**Bobthehero**

CAdians in Cadian Blood certainly use more modern tactics, with mechanized infantry and whatnot. Honestly, not every regiments are the DKoK or the Mordians or the Valhallans. You got the Harakonis, the Elysians, the Cadians and even the Steel Legion to consider.

Carnifex aren't infantry anyway, there's Beast Slayer shells for those kind of things (tho I did kill one with lasguns on the TT, so y'know, tells you something...)

**Ynneadwraith**

Deadshot wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Deadshot wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
So how come they don't have a SAW equivalent version? I can buy that the multilaser battery is too large except for a large crew served weapon. Taking that as a given why is there not a squad auto version. To keep in line with the lasgun itself it could use the same size batteries, but either multiple ones or require more frequent reloads?

It'd be pointless given the life expectancy and style of the Imperial Guard. For a start, each Guardsman has a life expectancy measured in hours once they hit the battlefield. On top of that, the IG operates on the idea that each squad should be dedicated to a particular task. The platoon has HWS, SWS, Snipers, Infantry and other specialists, each doing their job and only their job because to mix n match in a platoon who are expected to die within the week is a waste of munitions and time. The Infantry squad either charges into the enemy to soak up bullets, or tie the enemy for a few minutes while tanks are brought to bear, or give the artillery a target to aim at, or something similar. A lasgun does the job because its meant to fire off a few rounds and then the wielder dies. A SAW would do the same. In terms of defending, as a rapid-fire LMG of sorts, Heavy Weapon Squads or Teams within the Infantry unit do the same job with a Heavy Bolter, but can be bigger, faster and better because they are a static defence.

You're not getting it. Why are "heavy weapon teams" (which is what I was referring to (remember they are not separate from their squad, the ability to change them is only a gaming pricing function) not also wielding some sort of SAW weapon? All the arguments about lasguns hold for squad support fire as well. After all, thats why they typically have the same caliber in modern armies, for ease of logistics. I sense a modelling opportunity...

Because those are HEAVY weapons teams, who carry weapons too big for a single man to operate like Heavy Bolters. They are supposed to entrench, fire like all hell broke loose (most likely it did) and stay there until they are relieved of duty (which means they or the enemy are dead). Modern soldiers get SAW because it helps them win the fight and stay alive, whereas the average Guardsman is not supposed to survive. A lasgun is given to a soldier so he can fight back somewhat, but its still worth more than their life, and is relatively cheap to produce. A SAW would be more expensive and be completely useless because the holdier dies within an hour as he is chucked into the meat grinder. Its a completely pointless thing to do.

Its like this: YOu have a goldfish. Its going to die in 3 weeks. You could buy premium goldfish food, 18 servings, $30. This means you need 2 so it can eat once a day. $60. Or you can just buy the generic, paper flakes for $5, which will last 4 months. With the extra money saved, you could buy 3 more goldfish. Same as guardsman. The savings between giving out a SAW and another lasgun means you could train another squad of Guardsman for the grinder. Either way, you're goldfish and you're guardsman will be dead by Tuesday.

While that's a very well made point, I just want to highlight for the benefit of many animals out there that Goldfish are meant to live for a hell of a lot longer than 3 weeks! Usually a good few years. If they're dying sooner it's usual a problem with water toxicity/acidity levels that people never really think to look at.

tl;dr I care more about fish than Guardsmen's lives. Must be a Commissar in an alternative universe. Or an Ethereal if we want to go with the (slightly bizarre) meme that Tau are fish-people

**Manchu**

That Tau = fish thing is an example of an "ethnic slur" developed IRL specifically to demean a fictional race. I think it started as a reference to a greatly despised power gamer tactic in 4th where Firewarriors shot from behind their transports (Devilfish); the so-called Fish of Fury. Other Tau vehicles are also named after marine life. Combine this with the in-setting xenophobia of the IoM and the fact that Tau have been generally controversial among 40k fans since GW introduced them ... aaaaand the inherent creepiness of Tau culture.

**usmcmidn**

Deadshot wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
gnome_idea_what wrote:
The truth of the matter is that the Imperium is large enough and has the population to be able to use human soldiers as expendable assets. If thousands or tens of thousands are lost to retake a planet from cultists, then the cultists have lost a planet and the IG has gained a planet, only there are so many more guardsmen and potential (read: conscriptable) guardsmen out there compared to the number of cultists out there that even if five or more guardsmen were lost for every cultist defeated the IoM would still be winning in numbers.

They still have to have weaponry and force multipliers however. Else the guard wouldn't be equipped with anything but a rock.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:
kirotheavenger wrote:
I don't think all guard follow the 'they're worth less than the enemies bullets' philosophy.
That's just an amusing meme that people take too literally.

Actually, its quite literal. Guardsmen literally are worth less then the bullets it takes to kill them.

Thats not a physical possibility and goes against much of the fluff, and fundamental concepts of economics (not 40K writer's biggest strength). You have to shipp all those bodies across space, and you have to expand vast sums to "grow" that human asset asset. Not to mention the foodstuffs and other support needed to keep that human alive in the field and all the kit you just made for that guy.

A bullet is cheap as dirt.

Yes, a bullet is cheap as dirt and you can buy 1 inch of dirt with the lives of a thousand men. Humanity in 40k breeds faster than they can make and build weaponry, especially when each bullet needs 3 Hail Maries and a dip in holy oil to make sure it works right. And you also assume the Imperium has social welfare. They provide jobs for everyone to do, and give them enough to survive on. The work people do is worth infinitely more to the Imperium than the rewards they receive.

usmcmidn wrote:A "SAW" doesn't have to be a weapon that has "more" or "better" stopping power. It just needs to suppress the enemy. In the Marines our Squad Automatic Weapon is the M27 IAR which is basically a more expensive M4a1. It's automatic and accurate but uses the same bullet as the M4 carbine. With its role it doesn't need to be a heavy hitting weapon. Just needs to be able to effectively suppress the enemy either by volume of fire (the M249 LMG which is still used at the company level) or by accurate suppression (the new M27 IAR, fire team level)

Realistically, the guard would have a SAW in their squad but it's likely overlooked. The weapon would likely be the same strength but fires a little bit faster and is a little more accurate. However you couldn't really represent it on the tabletop game because of the heavy bolter profile, multi-laser profile etc... so it is likely overlooked.

So in short they very likely have it, but it's overlooked in the game.

You're still thinking in terms of modern warfare and not future warfare with aliens. A SAW can take the same round as the rifle, but in a fight where the enemy can just shrug off your shot like its nothing, firing those bullets 3 times faster is totally pointless. You wouldn't fire your M4a1 at an Abrams, its gonna do gak sll squared, and you wouldn't do gak all with a M27 either. Suspression weapons are in reality a deterrant, you fire it to say "I have a SAW, back the feth up" but if all the enemy soldiers were bulletproof a la Superman, it wouldn't deter them. Similarly, if you're Lasgun isn't keeping the Ork or Nid at bay, a lasrifle that shoots 3 times faster wont do the job either. For that you need better penetration to get past their armour, and a high stopping power (Str) to actually hurt them in the first place. Furthermore, when on the offensive, the IG dont need to suppress enemies because they have A) Artillery B) the intention of getting shot to waste ammunition. When on the defense, as stated, the heavier, hard-hitting Heavy Bolter does a much better job that a LasMG

The vast majority of Guard face human foes and maybe Orks. Against them, having a SAW is beneficial. I would like to think they would have it amongst their squads.

**AndrewGPaul**

Like I said above, a SAW or LMG is simply a type of weapon that 40k never bothered with originally.

the storm bolter is arguably a version of that for Marines (and the Sisters of Battle seem to employ it in precisely that role), but until the Miltarum Tempestus got their double-barrelled hotshot lasgun thingy, there was never a laser equivalent. Frazzled's right; there probably should be one, but ...

I suppose the plasma gun could sort of fulfil that role (can anyone remember if the stats for plasma guns in 1st edition had Following Fire?).

**Keep**

Bobthehero wrote:
CAdians in Cadian Blood certainly use more modern tactics, with mechanized infantry and whatnot.

mechanized infantry and "drop troops" where used in WW2... Like i said. Their squad structure and armament resembles the world wars and early cold war, not modern military. And there was no widespread use of LMG until fairly recently. (With advance of body armor the trend is going backwards as well).

AndrewGPaul wrote:
I suppose the plasma gun could sort of fulfil that role (can anyone remember if the stats for plasma guns in 1st edition had Following Fire?).

Plasmaguns fire slowly and have little ammo capacity (10 shots)

**usmcmidn**

Keep wrote:
Bobthehero wrote:
CAdians in Cadian Blood certainly use more modern tactics, with mechanized infantry and whatnot.

mechanized infantry and "drop troops" where used in WW2... Like i said. Their squad structure and armament resembles the world wars and early cold war, not modern military. And there was no widespread use of LMG until fairly recently. (With advance of body armor the trend is going backwards as well).

AndrewGPaul wrote:
I suppose the plasma gun could sort of fulfil that role (can anyone remember if the stats for plasma guns in 1st edition had Following Fire?).

Plasmaguns fire slowly and have little ammo capacity (10 shots)

Well SAWs were first introduced in WWI and wide spread in WW2 so I'd argue they are not a new concept... so if they (the IG) are structured around those tactics they certainly would have it, look up the BAR and the Madsen Machine Gun, both introduced in WWI the BAR being introduced later in the war. I get in the fluff and the IG is expendable and that's cool and all but even then realistically they would have a SAW in their ranks. The IGs idea of sacrificing bodies is fun for fluff but they will eventually run out of said bodies and lose the war. I like to think they care about mission accomplishment and victory above all else, this may mean taking very heavy losses sometimes, but remember they have to kill the bad guys effectively too. Tactics will be used... other then let's drown them in bodies. Cadians and equivalents will out maneuver their enemies to gain an advantage. And most important part... GW doesn't grasp military knowledge very well, they make stuff up all the time.

**Mr_Rose**

Keep wrote:
AndrewGPaul wrote:
I suppose the plasma gun could sort of fulfil that role (can anyone remember if the stats for plasma guns in 1st edition had Following Fire?).

Plasmaguns fire slowly and have little ammo capacity (10 shots)

Plasma guns used to have a sustained fire dice and be bad at penetrating armour.

**kirotheavenger**

Well maybe they don't because lasguns function like an LMG when needed?
Lasguns have powerpack capacities of somewhere between 40 and 100 shots, and can be recharged. So they would have the capacity for that, they certainly have a full auto mode and every shot is a tracer afterall.

**usmcmidn**

I didn't think that every lasgun could have a high enough fire rate to be a mini-SAW on its own...

Anyway... there's something that's been bothering me.

The Lasgun... it's a game and a lot of time the game trumps reality I get it. But REALISTICALLY....

What would the Lasgun fire?

Laser wouldn't be effective in every type of weather or environment. Sandstorms, fog, or rain would make it ineffective. And invading a sand world would be a nightmare for the guard and they would be ineffective.

Maybe a very low powered plasma type gun. If that's the case, would a battery be able enough to fuel the weapon? Isn't plasma heated metal, if so this would make resupply a pain when in the fluff the Lasgun logically is a miracle of war. Because you wouldn't be able to recharge the weapon batteries.

Someone mentioned like a mini lightning type gun, which would be able to use a battery pack but the fluff says it can shoot in space (a vacuum)... I was under the impression lightning doesn't work in vacuums... but my science is a little rusty.

Is there some other type of material it would fire realistically?

**the ancient**

As someone who plays around with 18650s for fun, and vapes.
Yeah, you can get some quite explosive effects with batteries.
They can knock planes out of the sky, given the right focus they can burn through things instantly or eventually. If you have enough they can power a car

**KayTwo**

Wouldn't the multilas be an example of a light or medium machine gun? I know that infantry squads can't carry them (which is silly) but they can be found on a bunch of different guard vehicles.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lasguns could work like the blasters from Star Wars; firing supper heated gas. I know that this would essentially make them weak plasma guns, but I don't think that there is anything wrong with that

**Deadshot**

KayTwo wrote:
Wouldn't the multilas be an example of a light or medium machine gun? I know that infantry squads can't carry them (which is silly) but they can be found on a bunch of different guard vehicles.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lasguns could work like the blasters from Star Wars; firing supper heated gas. I know that this would essentially make them weak plasma guns, but I don't think that there is anything wrong with that

Because such weapons would be closer to Pulse Rifles than Lasguns, as Pulse is a form of plasma, whereas Lasweapons are straight up lasers, and unfortunately its part of sci-fi that just has to be hand-waived, because any sci-fi form needs handwaivium to work. For example, superheroes like Spiderman or Captain America need handwavium as to their strength, The Flash has much handwavium, Superman is entirely handwavium. Same as stuff like Star Trek, Star Wars, 40K, Terminator, and basically any science fiction media needs suspension of disbelief or a little tweaking of the facts to work.

My handwavium for Lasweapons is simply that it burns so hot it incinerates tiny particles of dust or whatever in its path, and evaporates moisture particles, so it doesn't need to worry about them as much. Obviously, a great ash cloud would be a problem but a bit of rain isn't an issue.

**kirotheavenger**

I didn't think that environmental effects were really a big deal for the lasgun, as anything too thick too shoot through is too thick to see through.
Although that means you still can't try to suppress through smoke and things.

I heard somewhere it suggested that lasguns first first a lower power shot, to burn a clear path to what you're aiming at, and then the high powered shot immediately afterwards to deliver the blow.
The whole two-shot process taking less time than a bullet travelling down the barrel.

**usmcmidn**

kirotheavenger wrote:
I didn't think that environmental effects were really a big deal for the lasgun, as anything too thick too shoot through is too thick to see through.
Although that means you still can't try to suppress through smoke and things.

I heard somewhere it suggested that lasguns first first a lower power shot, to burn a clear path to what you're aiming at, and then the high powered shot immediately afterwards to deliver the blow.
The whole two-shot process taking less time than a bullet travelling down the barrel.

Ok, I could somewhat believe that working. Rain, no problem as someone else said the water would evaporate around the laser or whatnot, but what about ash or sand? They would certainly have to fight in those conditions. Seeing as how orks are a common enemy who use ballistic weapons wouldn't have a problem shooting. The argument of hey close combat... they would get destroyed so... would a hot enough laser punch through ash and similar environments?

**Grey Templar**

Ash and Sand is definitely going to limit the lasers effectiveness. but no more than solid projectile weapons would also be limited. If you could see your target, both the laser and the bullet are going to get through with lethal force.

Ash and sand are also going to play havoc with a mechanical firearm, while a lasgun has no moving parts. So its going to be less problematic in that respect. Static charge might cause issues with the electronics of course.

**kirotheavenger**

Well a single lasgun is probably not equivalent to a single SAW. But it's possible that the greater firepower of a lasgun-equipped squad makes up for that difference.
And the extra logistics of issuing a SAW wouldn't be worth the effort. Instead the squads are accompanied by other special weapons fulfilling a more specialised role, such as flamers, grenade launchers or melta guns.
We can see that elite forces, such as the Tempestus do wield a SAW like weapon, perhaps because the increase in logistics required is worth the bump in power.

**Bobthehero**

They seem to draw the power from the same cells as standard hotshots.

**kirotheavenger**

Bobthehero wrote:
They seem to draw the power from the same cells as standard hotshots.

Hotshot weapons use backpack ammo supplies, because a standard issue lasgun sized powerpack can only hold a single hotshot shot.

**Bobthehero**

I know, and its the same backpack wether you use a hotshot lasgun or not.

And some stormtrooper models don't have backpack, but powerpacks, somehow I doubt these packs only fire one shot. Furthermore, FFG RPG's had hotshot lasguns that had normal powerpacks, but all weapons could be hooked up to the larger backpacks. They also had Hotshot packs that could fit standard lasguns and gave extra damage and AP (but not as much as a normal hotshot lasgun)

**kirotheavenger**

Bobthehero wrote:
I know, and its the same backpack wether you use a hotshot lasgun or not.

And some stormtrooper models don't have backpack, but powerpacks, somehow I doubt these packs only fire one shot. Furthermore, FFG RPG's had hotshot lasguns that had normal powerpacks, but all weapons could be hooked up to the larger backpacks. They also had Hotshot packs that could fit standard lasguns and gave extra damage and AP (but not as much as a normal hotshot lasgun)

Maybe you misunderstood me.
The standard size power pack that fits in a regular lasgun will only hold 1 hotshot shot. I presume these are modified packs to dump all their charge in a single shot as opposed to pacing it out.
Because one shot is really sucky, hotshot lasguns are almost always fed from a backpack mounted powersupply. I imagine a hotshot lasgun to be essentially a lasgun modified in whatever way to handle the constant added stress of firing hotshots.
If you wanted a regular lasgun with lots of shots you could also use that off of a backpack supply of some kind.
In the RPGs the lasgun with hotshot laspack tends to hit harder than the regular hotshot lasgun, so perhaps you could get a few shots out of a hotshot lasgun with a power pack rather than just the one.
I imagine other guns (assuming' because models' isn't a viable argument) need backpack power supplies because they themselves run off of a power supply as well. Or those guns don't have a power supply persay, but something like a plasma gun has a gas supply from the backpack, or a melta gun has a 'melta' supply or whatever they actually fire.

**Mr_Rose**

Meltaguns are actually a fascinating problem; what the hell are they?

A maser is insufficient, plus they clearly consume physical ammunition. The original description indicated that they generated subatomic reactions, which translates to "meson gun" IMHO, but that's also what conversion beamers do.
So I conclude that the meltagun is a sort of fusion induction gun; it fires a stream of charged particles which stick to the target, then "ignites" them into fusion withe a specially tuned energy beam that the melta-gas is designed to be hyper-reactive to. Like a reverse plasma gun.

**kirotheavenger**

Mr_Rose wrote:
Meltaguns are actually a fascinating problem; what the hell are they?

A maser is insufficient, plus they clearly consume physical ammunition. The original description indicated that they generated subatomic reactions, which translates to "meson gun" IMHO, but that's also what conversion beamers do.
So I conclude that the meltagun is a sort of fusion induction gun; it fires a stream of charged particles which stick to the target, then "ignites" them into fusion withe a specially tuned energy beam that the melta-gas is designed to be hyper-reactive to. Like a reverse plasma gun.

That kinda works.
But we know they also have a focusing nozzle, capable of creating a whole in a bulkhead sufficient for an astartes to fit through. (Seen in Fear To Tread).

Maybe they are almost exactly like a plasma gun, but whereas the plasma gun projects the stabilising field in parallel ahead of itself, the meltagun instead focuses this field on a very narrow point ahead of itself. This would explain the higher strength, shorter range, and melta effect as any target beyond the maximum focal point for the plasma it would start to dissipate. So if we assume a melta gun could focus precisely up to 6'' away, it begins to disperse beyond that to the point of ineffectiveness at 12''.

**Imperial_grunt**

The term "Flashlight" really doesn't do this weapon justice, the accuracy of a las-bolt, combined with the practically non-existent recoil are great starting points for this gun. Then factor in the rechargeable ammo packs, and furthermore the fact that it can insta-boil the blood in a targets limbs, causing said limb to explode, instantly puts the lasgun's capabilities ahead of any standard-issue military firearm available around in our world.

Yes unsurprisingly it may start to falter individually against more resilient enemies like chaos Space Marines, but that's not the fault of the weapon, it's more that so many beings in the 40k universe are just that ridiculously Over-powered that you need to upgrade to grenade launchers or plasma guns to match them on an individual level, but that's when mass volley firing comes into the equation. When there are thousands of lasguns firing from a well disciplined line of troops, even the big bad guys in power armour are going to get disintegrated.

That being said however, when you're up against Gaunts or Orc boyz (who are far more common) though it's perfectly adequate, especially considering many lasguns are capable of full-auto fire. Although given the technological state of the Imperium it's a dead-end design, the fact that it is still reliably adequate after 10,000 years plus of service is a testament to its enduring design.

**SomeRandomEvilGuy**

I wouldn't rely on the RPGs damage system too much. Plasma guns for example are weaker than multilasers whereas on TT and in the fluff they are portrayed as significantly more potent. Plus plasma both overheats and can only fire every other round. Point is, damage values in particular are wonky for at least some of the RPGs.