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 Zimko wrote:
Despite that, the tyranid list went 4 and 2 at ETC. Tony's Guard went 6 and 0.

Which stands to reason, considering they were both getting thrown at the toughest lists, and one was the strongest combination of the top 3 Imperium detachments they could build, and one was just Tyranids. Tony's was designed to be their all star, and every other list came second to that, and that was their process in building their composition. They were surprised by the Nick Rose Tyranid list themselves but in testing found it to be strong and on their day it was one of their strongest choices for when they wanted a win.

This is all from the mouth of team captain Sean Nayden BTW.

It doesn't do what Magus does tho, the least important thing is their resilience it's not what GSC allies are for

Actually the big difference is SMA, it's really the most important factor there and means one unit of HG can literally have the shooting of 2, not sure how that didn't get a mention.

Also, Acid Spray Tyrannofex's wound profile is very important, the flamer goes from S7 all the way to S5, far from full strength

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Actually the big difference is SMA, it's really the most important factor there and means one unit of HG can literally have the shooting of 2, not sure how that didn't get a mention.

Also, Acid Spray Tyrannofex's wound profile is very important, the flamer goes from S7 all the way to S5, far from full strength

But against infantry thats not to big of a deal, wounding on 2 vs a 3 (or 3 to 4) when you have 14 hits isnt much different compare to hitting on 5+ with 6 shots, with a weapon like the Rupture cannon, thats an important weapon to hit so you dont want it missing. But with Kronos you could make it re-roll 1's.

You literally just said he shoots at full strength even on 1 wound, that is wrong, being able to shred tanks and flyers is a massive boon, he loses this with his wound profile and youre then only pointing him at infantry to get his money's worth.

And dont forget tho, you can make its Damage +1 for 2CP, Always 2D flamer weapon at 18" that could be 4D is important to think about as well.

OK so now you're back to pointing him at tanks? Seeing as most infantry dont really give a crap? Then the wound profile matters. You do this stratagem when he's at full strength too for even greater returns, it's also made weaker by the wound profile dropping.


Put whatever spin you like on it, but his wound profile is most definitely important.

 Amishprn86 wrote:


I never said anything about tanks, i think i said the opposite actually, i use it to kill units like Shiny Spears, Grots, etc.

So you're spending 2CP to do extra damage against a unit you are already killing in 1 hit 66.6% of the time anyway, and act like this is better than +1 to wound on all your autohits? Well alright. Sounds to me like another example of something that is just also weakened by the Tyrannofex losing wounds, but spin it how you need to.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Being St 5 compare to Str 7 does hurt a bit yes, but against many units it doesnt matter, its still wounding on 3+ no matter what, so no its not wrong.

I mean, that's literally the opposite of what you said to begin with, so yes, it was wrong, but okay.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
If you like it hunting Tanks, sure go for it, but literally HG deals the same wounds to tanks, even against -1 to hit ones, i'd rather it keep important foot units units at bay and make sure no one is touching an objective.

The point is, you can do both. Losing an entire targeting profile on a unit that has only 18" range and wants to remain stationary to apply it's damage, is a big difference. Trying to sell it as though it's wound profile doesn't matter is just a vast misunderstanding of the unit.




Anyway, I'm bailing out of this one. I think everyone else realises that S7 flamer is significantly stronger than a S5 one, and not the same as "firing at full strength" at all.

I just want to talk about what I was saying about the meta being really bad for us right now...

Chapter Tactics just did a podcast covering stats of the winrate of every army in the competitive scene over the past month and a half, as a primary faction.

Result's are as you may expect, with Ynnari, Knights, DE, and Guard at the top of the pack, most hovering around 55% win rate.


Down to the bottom we have a few power armor armies (which, as the guys on the podcast and the stats collector both agreed, you ALWAYS have to take into account will be lower because they attract thematic players and things like "Imperial Fist mains" etc like no other army).

But after that, right near the bottom, at 40% winrate mark, we see both Tyranids and Necrons neck and neck for worst performing Xeno dexes. Now Necron's are considered one of the worst dexes out right now... so I think this statistic provides an interesting look into how hostile the meta is for us right now with those two armies that counter us being so powerful

Spoletta wrote:
This is NOVA invitational:

https://challonge.com/NOVAinvite18

GW is there.

Big nerfs incoming.

are you saying that they will nerf Nids bigtime for placing in a tournament? Doubt it. They are at lots of tourneys

I really hope so because those armies are all absurd right now

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

 jifel wrote:
I think he is saying that nerfs are incoming for the BA/IG/IK lists that were all over the place. After all, the final is IG/BA/IK vs IK/IG.

Yeah this, sorry if it wasn't clear.

It was clear

It just said "nerfs incoming" in a Tyranid tactics thread, which could have meant multiple things, hence why I asked for clarification. Not a big deal for anyone involved.

Spoletta wrote:

weaver9 wrote:

 Astmeister wrote:
So what would Tyranids need to get out of the meta swamp?

I think our mid range is solid but we lack good long range, and oddly enough I feel like we lack good CC options.

Genestealers are great, but t4 5++ melts to bolter fire and are mostly good at killing MEQ (which exocrines or dakka fexes are also good at, but at range).

I think we need some extra layers of protection, or heavier hitting melee units.

Our long range is weak by codex design, but we indeed lack big CC hitters. I'm not saying that we should have stuff that breaks a knight face on, that's LoW territory. But something that can scare it a bit would be nice.

As far as it goes, you really can't get a more aggressive CC heavy hitter than a full unit of Aberrant with Hammers brought in with a Primus. The issue I think is they have a larger footprint and no jump compared to Imperial or even Aeldari options.

Winged Stonecrushers are go? lol

 Astmeister wrote:
My opinion is that we need a LoW.

You're probably right.

I'm currently painting up a Scythed Heirodule, I'm planning to protect it with Malanthrope, and probably make it Leviathan. Swarmlord for Catalyst, Onslaught, and double movement. Numbers look pretty good if you can get it into CC with a Knight, especially if you Fight Again strat on it, should one shot a Knight, and it's cheaper than one. Gonna try deal with screens with a horde of ambushing Cultists. I have no idea how it's going to play, but should be fun.

 Astmeister wrote:
The Scy Hierodule only does 7.3 damage to a knight with 4++ (which we agreed on he will have). And he will get worse if he takes damage. So you need first turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Only if the knight has no inv the Hierodule will do about 14 damage a swing.

if those numbers are accurate then nmind Hierodule is even more garbage than I thought

He's been sitting in the sprue for a while so I was looking for a way to use him now that im building him but its probly not worth if you're right

I think the main point is that it's not a counter to the Knight lists or the meta that's running around bodying Nids right now

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Mind control is counter tho.... If you can Mind control the Knight you waste the Missile and you shoot their unit next to the knight killing a unit for free.

His list still lost is the point. This helps but isn't some tactic that changes the meta for us.

But it probably does mean it's not a counter to it, if Nick Rose still lost to it.

Regardless, did he actually get any wins vs this list? Which round? I thought they started throwing Tony's IoM list at the Knight lists iirc

 Amishprn86 wrote:
We already talked about the best way to counter it as nid tho, thats to ignore it or use it to help you win.

One person wondered if we could counter them like this, and you alone assured that we would, not much of a discussion was had lol. It is probably one of the better ways to be able to play the match up, but let's not overstate the conclusion yet, we are still trying to discuss it.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
the fact that he did beat a Knight/IG list

Is this a fact at all? You just posted that you weren't really sure, and it's not what I heard their captain Sean Nayden say at all. Any sort of source on this, this should be easy to iron out?

 Amishprn86 wrote:
is proof you can beat them. Nice comes down to it also, you can lose a game and do everything right and counter them completely all because you failed a few dice roles and they didnt.

They same holds true for regular lists. Look, you're the person who's saying that this list changes the meta for us and that the showing at ETC is proof of anything, and while it's up in the air if that's right about the list, ETC showing certainly doesn't support the conclusion you are making.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
https://challonge.com/NOVAinvite18

That isnt Nick beating a IK/IG/BA list? I might have read the information wrong, let me know if thats the case.

That is him indeed him doing it. You were saying it happened at the ETC however, but this game is from NOVA, which is why I couldn't find it. But he also lost immediately after to the same Castellan Gaurd BA style list, so it's not really indicative of anything

 Amishprn86 wrote:
And i said "able to beat" that doesnt mean every person is able to nor will always be top 10, in tournaments you ALWAYS have to get lucky with match-ups, dice roles, etc...

Im saying Nids will start to do better in tournaments, never did i say they will always win them

I know what you said, I quite clearly responded to exactly that and didn't alter it in any way to say anything else. Unlike exactly what you've just done. Where did I say you will always get top 10 in every tournament, and always win every tournament? Literally all I said is that your evidence given so far did not support your claims that it's a counter to the things destroying us in the meta, because the only example provided (before this post) was an event where it lost to this very list. This shouldn't be this difficult.






Automatically Appended Next Post:
My opinion: As I mentioned a few pages ago I personally think the list is very strong and capable. But to add to that, that I'm not convinced that it turns our losing matches upside down yet or even that it balances them up. While it is possible, I just haven't seen the evidence nor a convincing argument for it yet. The Catachan detachments naturally deal pretty well with the horde, and mind control with Magus will have some sort of impact, but 9 games outta 10 not the magical-christmas-land steal-a-castellan-and-shoot-down-a-tank-with-it impact that some people seem to expect it to.

I must have misread then. We'll see how it proceeds in time. At Nova it went 1 for 1 against AM/BA/IK so not yet really indicative of anything. Anything can win a single game against anything, we'll see what can do it consistently.

 N.I.B. wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
I think the main point is that it's not a counter to the Knight lists or the meta that's running around bodying Nids right now

Rose's ETC list has ~230 mostly fearless bodies, backed up by Smites. That list won 19-1 against the French Ynnari list (and winner of the singles event, with a perfect 100/100 score).

Sean Nayden said team USA were surprised by the Nick Rose Tyranid list themselves but in testing found it to be strong and it was one of their strongest choices for when they wanted a win, along with Kopachs Imperium soup. Andrew Gonyo's AdMech was who they threw under the bus when they needed to do that.

I know - I was the one who said this first. You just quoted my own words from a few pages ago back to me lol

here and here:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Tony's was designed to be their all star, and every other list came second to that, and that was their process in building their composition. They were surprised by the Nick Rose Tyranid list themselves but in testing found it to be strong and on their day it was one of their strongest choices for when they wanted a win.

This is all from the mouth of team captain Sean Nayden BTW.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Sean Nayden said that their IG/BA/Knight list and that Tyranid list, were their two powerhouses all day who they just threw at lists knowing that they'd grab a win. Andrew Gonyo's AdMech was who they threw to wolves when they needed to do that.

I know the list is strong, I've been saying that. What I was saying is that it may not be enough to really turn a losing match-up upside down. I'm also not saying that it's NOT able to do this either, just that the evidence given for it at the time didn't really support the conclusion being presented.

I just listened to the Bif podcast and heard Nick Nanavati talking about the exact topic of the horde Nid list. His opinion is that it's a very strong list, but the Guard/Knight meta list has natural options to deal with it, with their own mini horde of S4 2A Catachans. His words about the GSC detachment specifically as well: "You take mind control, and you're like 'Mindcontrolling a Castellan this sounds so cool!', but I feel like with all the screens and the pressure, you never actually get there. When you do it's like... oh my god." Strong in theory, but inconsistent in practice. Basically, he just mirrored everything I said the other day, so I guess that's a pretty strong perspective there.

I hate your third round opponent. Meticulously slowplays, and then tries to refuse you playing out what little time you have left after he's done measuring 60+ Guardsmen individually, even with all the odds in his favor. He was literally trying to leave the game with you only getting two turns in and him three. Don't discount the possibility that the judge saw him do Something similar in the first two rounds, regardless I don't think he was too harsh at all. That's a real dick move to pull at a tourney.

Fair enough maybe he's not as bad as I read it

It's probably not a factor in your meta, How do you think your list would hold up to hordes, especially assaulty ones like horde Nids or Boys? I'm thinking it may find struggles there

Why would you not just shoot at anything else in the army, not least of which the 6 other fexes, if someone cast Catalyst on one?

 Xenomancers wrote:
I pretty much only put catalyst on my warlord tyrant.

I really like that list above though. I don't do GSC but that is a nice answer to castellans.

In general I catalyst a squad of Genestealers, the Warlord, or any other Flyrants, in order of priority. Otherwise I agree.

If I found myself Catalysting Carnifexes consistently, I'd have to question my choice of powers. There's not a lot of ways I can imagine that being a great decision tbh.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm on my second unit of 6 HG (already have Impaler Cannon unit obviously). I've magnetised up the gun tip but it just looks so ugly. Any reason not to just glue it up as Shock Cannons in people's opinion? Or is more HG than 6 possibly going to come back in the meta for us ever in anyone's speculation?

Math checks out, tho I think you're both wrong and Krakkafexes are the way to go. (Though for HVC I'd probably run Jorm)

Sporocyst's deployment options states that instead of placing it on the battlefield, it can wait and during the first battle round (so after deployment), but before the first turn begins (so no waiting until turn 2), it can come down.

With the new FAQ, anything that is not on the table during deployment, cannot arrive in the first battle round.




Unless changed, Sporocyst's deployment option is currently illegal in matched play, meaning it has to deploy with the rest of your army and has to sit on your side of the field and spawn 3" movespeed mines from there, and can no longer be used to do anything it was designed to do like be a midfield synapse peg or harass/zone with spores.


In other words, hope you guys are happy with the shift of another of our good units being moved over to the "narrative match only category"! Must be good being a narrative player.

That's cool but now you're playing by neither ruleset, which means you may as well not weigh in on the rules

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Well, if we are playing rules as writen, codex always overrides the BRB, and b.c it wasnt faq'ed like everything else, you will still play it as it is now.

What? By this logic the FAQ has literally no effect because all the rules it overwrites are in codexes. This is not how the FAQ works at all lol

The FAQ overwrites everything dude lol. Otherwise, if Sporocyst can ignore the deepstrike FAQ rules literally everything can. If you need further understanding of the FAQ, take it to YMDC and argue what technicalities you think you have in there, because as it stands it's not relevant in here, and I'm just trying to talk about playing a unit by the rules.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Doesn't the Sporocyst get by this as it doesn't arrive in the first battle round anyways? FAQ mentioned several times units that can arrive mid-game, which the Sporocyst doesn't. Don't have codex on me at the moment, but there might be an exception here.

Specifically says it doesn't arrive till the start of the first battle round, and then has to deploy in this time, but before starting the first turn.

The second you're up against someone not running multiple Knights those Biovores are costing you a lot of points


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This FAQ nerfed Nid Genestealers as well. You used to be able to infest them to dodge Mortars for example to you could bring them in turn 1 and clear out the threat with your Flyrants etc, and then pick up from turn 2 as usual.

Now it's just gimped, not moving out of your deployment zone until turn 3 is just way too slow that you may as well just deploy them. Also I'd your opponent gets 2 turns in first they may even be able to kill your Stealers in the movement phase without firing a bullet just by moving a unit of two in range of the nodes, or at best severely limit where you can come down. Really sucks because now they have the worst deepstrike in the game and basically just have to weather it no matter what.