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Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Welcome to the Tyranid Tactics Thread! Your one stop shop for all things nids in 8th edition. This first post Is going to be maintained, by which I mean updated. It's a group effort and if you have anything you wish to contribute to it please feel free to PM me with any contributions you wish to add. IMPORTANT This thread is going to be LONG and keeping the formatting nice and neat is a lot of work. Please. If your going to PM something to me keep the format consistent so I can just copy and paste your contribution to the thread. If I have to edit and adjust everyones PMs it will become a horrible nightmare for me. Help me help us by formatting correctly! Thanks!
Monstrous Bio-cannons Two Deathspitters with Slimer Maggots Two Devourers with Brainleech Worms Stranglethorn Cannon Heavy Venom Cannon
Bio-Artifacts Scythes of Tyran - Behemouth
Chameleonic Mutation - Kraken
Hyper-Adaptive Biology - Gorgon
Slayer Sabres - Leviathan
Slimer Maggot Infestation - Hydra
Balethorn Cannon - Kronos
Infrasonic Roar - Jormungandr
The Ymgarl Factor
The Reaper of Obliterax
The Maw Claws of Thyrax - A model with Rending Claws or MRC. If you slay a model in the fight phase you reroll all hit rolls in all subsequent fight phases. Lance845: Pretty freaking great for a Melee tyrant. MRC costs 0 points. If you want a relic on the tyrant for melee this will keep him chewing threw the enemy even as it's stat line degrades.
The Norn Crown - Friendly <Hive Fleet> units within 30" do not suffer from IB. Lance845: Basically worthless. It adds 6 inches to the range needed to negate Instinctive Behaviour. The default range is 2 ft. (24") which is incredibly large. It doesn't increase Synapse or Shadow in the Warp range, so why exactly would you take this over something actually useful like the Miasma Cannon?
The Miasma Cannon - Replace a Heavy Venom Cannon. Just like the regular HVC except it always wounds non Vehicles on a 2+ and auto hits targets within 8". Lance845: Unless your Hive Fleet of choice has a great weapon that fits your tactics this thing is probably an auto take for shooting.
General Psychic Barrage 1CP
Caustic Blood 1CP
Rapid Regeneration 2 CP
Scorch Bugs 1 CP
Feeder Tendrils 1 CP
Implant Attack 1 CP
Bounty of the Hive Fleet 1 CP/3 CP
Metabolic Overdrive 1 CP
Single-Minded Annihilation 2 CP
Grisly Feast 1 CP
Pathogenic Slime 2 CP
Invisible Hunter 1 CP
Power of the Hive Mind 1 CP
Pheromone Trail 1 CP
Death Frenzy 2 CP
Overrun 1 CP
Voracious Appetite 1 CP
HQ Hive Tyrant Currently pretty great. But take at least 2. Their new invulnerable save makes them much more durable but it's a little swingy and focus fire will bring them down. Typical load out's generally include Monstrous Rending Claws (because they are free and good) and a gun (either 2x Devourers or 2x Deathspitters (1/2 the shots but -1AP) or a bio canon. Wing's lets you deepstrike. Kraken Flying Tyrants can fall back, shoot and then charge again. Abuse this. Pairs well with Gargoyles and Shrikes.
Tyranid Prime A must have for warrior heavy lists. A nice durable and not too expensive leader bug. Weapon options have become pretty limited since it lost access to bio canons for some reason but It's real boost is giving all your warriors the +1 to hit.
Neurothrope Arguably our best Psyker. Rerolls 1s in psychic tests, can cast 2 powers, 3+ invulnerable save, heals itself with it's smite, and a character with less than 10 wounds. Why would you bring zoanthropes when you can just bring more of these guys?
Tervigon Not worth it unless you want to invest very heavily into termagants and Tervigons. At minimum you should be bringing 2 Tervigons and 3 units of 30 termagants (either 15 fleshborers/15 devourers or 20 Fleshborers/10 devourers each) to get some real kick out of these guys. The Termagants will cause all kinds of havoc and the 2 tervigons will respawn 20 termagants a turn while being 28 wounds of tough big bug the enemy needs to displace to stop you. Plus psyker support and your gants will be rerolling 1s to hit and wound. It takes a lot to make them work but they CAN work.
Old One Eye
-Forge World- Malanthrope
Troops Hormagaunts Not the killiest things in the world but an excellent forward swarm for getting all up in enemy gun lines faces and stopping their shooting for a turn. Their 6" pile in/consolidate makes all the difference in the world. See below in tactics for how to effectively use this and why it's so good.
Termagants GREAT horde troops. Coupled with a delivery system and the shoot twice stratagem these guys make for a devestating Termagant bomb just from sheer numbers. See below in tactics.
Ripper Swarms Cheap and great for deepstriking onto objectives or filling up a deployment zone if you are investing heavily in your own deepstrikes to prevent enemys from enetering your back field. Don't expect them o do much killing.
Tyranid Warriors Potentially really great. Deathspitters are Assault Heavy Bolters that can really lay out some damage and Venom Canons are good for taking out light vehicles, heavy infantry, and characters who decide to rear their head. You can build them for melee too but for 6 more PPM you can take shrikes who have +6M and FLY. Bring primes with them and make a massive durable (3w t4 takes a bit of fire to bring down, plus get them in cover or be Jormungandr for that 3+ sv) gunline. A full unit with a prime is not a bad choice for the shoot twice stratagem.
Hive Guard Impaler canons are EXCELLENT anti tank that does not require LoS.
Zoanthropes Outshone by the Neurothrope. Why would you bring these guys for more over all points when they can be targeted and the Neurothope can't?
The Red Terror A little lack luster. Having only ScyTal is a bit of a bummer. Swallow hole is neat but only really useful on weaker or weakened characters. The real bonus is adding +1 to hit on Ravener Broods. If you go Jormungandr your likely bought some Ravener taxis. And if you tricked out those Raveners with rending claws then the Red Terror makes them horrifying in CC.
Fast Attack Gargoyles
Sky Slasher Swarms
-Index- Tyranid Shrikes
-Forge World- Dimachaeron
Heavy Support Biovore
-Forge World- Stone Crusher Carnifex
Lord of War -Forge World- Harridan
Tactics Spoletta On units and how well they function with the different hive fleets. NOTE: The grades are NOT a gauge of how powerful the unit is, only their synergy with the specific Hive Fleet.
Swarmlord: (Named char, so no relics or WT for him)
The swarmlord is a melee beast and rerolling charges can be good. That said, when the swarmlord wants to join the fight he has already the option to double move. Doesn't get much out of the stratagem.
The swarmlord is a prime target. Period. The 6+++ really helps. Combined with some gargoyles he can get some precious rerolls out of the leviathan strategem, but against T7 or more targets it will be better to reroll all wounds.
Falling back and charging again is not usefull for this guy, he has no bonus on charge and no wings to penetrate enemy lines. The stratagem on the other hand can be sick on him, allowing him to charge turn 1 together with the unit he moves.
Rerolling 1's to wound can sometimes be good, but if you really wanted to crack what you were whacking then you would opt for the stratagem that rerolls all wounds. He also has no toxin sacs, so no stratagem.
The trait is useless and while the stratagem is sick you will have many other shadows for that.
Survivability is always nice, but it doesn't work in melee and on a model with a 4++ having 2+ or 3+ will many times not be important.
Hyve Tyrant (without wings):
A walkrant is not a first line assault unit, but typically a second or third line. For this reason when he gets to join the fight he has no issues with charge distance. The relic scythes are good, but you will usually prefer one of the biocannons or the reaper of Obliterax. The stratagem is so-so.
Same considerations as the swarmlord. The leviathan sabres are one of our worst relics and there are many Warlord traits better for an Hyve tyrant than the leviathan trait.
Walkrants have no reason to retreat and charge, or to charge turn 1 with the stratagem. The relic though is excellent, -1 to hit on this platform is priceless, and the warlord trait can sometimes be good.
Same considerations as the swarmlord, but he can actually take toxin sacs, and with the scytals he has enough attacks and AP to make it matter. The Gorgon relic is what makes this really good though. Play this guy with Tyrant guards and let a single wound go to him, this will activate the Gorgon relic and the sixth generic warlord trait (don’t bother with the Gorgon warlord trait), making the hyve tyrant an unstoppable platform with 12W T8 3+ 4++ reducing all incoming damage by 1. 48 overcharged plasma shot hits, or 36 powerfist hits! And the wounds that get through can be passed to the Tguard (catalyst goes on the Tguards). This is the go to fleet if you want an unstoppable tyrant which gets into enemy lines by turn 3 while fending off enemy shooting. Hydra 2/10
Adaptation is useless, stratagem is useless, warlord trait is rarely useful and the relic while sometimes good will usually be left on the desk in favor of the venom cannon relics.
Kronos (assault) 7/10
A Kronos assault Hyve tyrant has the best Warlord trait in the codex (maybe the best in the game), so he wants to get close and personal. He will not make use of the hive fleet adaptation, but can still make use of the excellent Kronos relic (got to love all our weapons being assault). He has no traits or relics protecting him, so be nice with him and invest in a unit of Tguards.
Kronos (Ranged) 6/10
A Kronos ranged Hyve tyrant makes good use of both the fleet adaptation and the Kronos Relic, but cannot take advantage of the warlord trait. Like with the swarmlord, you will have already enough shadows in place to use the stratagem, he will not need to get in there.
A walking Jormungandr hive tyrant is a nice ranged warlord. Increased save and negates cover (extended to other ‘nids within 3”). Forget the Jormu relic and take a bio cannon.
Hive Tyrant (winged):
A behemoth flyrant is either an assault flyrant or an hybrid one. In both cases the high speed of the flyrant combined with rerolling charges will allow you some impressive stunts. The relic can be good on a full assault Flyrant with double talons, but for the hybrid version you will want the reaper of obliterax or a bio cannon. The warlord trait is a nice option of the assault version.
The 6+++ is never bad, but the relic is. The Warlord trait can be used to great effect and the stratagem has its advantages.
Kraken stratagem does not work on flying models, and the flyrants have close to no use in gaining a couple of inches more the advance rolls. But charging again after retreating? Boy, that is soooo good! Both the assault, full dakka or hybrid version of a flyrant can get a lot out of this. Kraken relic is always a top grade. Don’t care about the warlord trait. Rather, don’t make this guy you warlord! He will not last long!
No good. A Gorgon tyrant needs the initial protection of Tguards or he will be focused to death in that single phase he is vulnerable. Flyrants and Tguards are not good friends. The warlord trait can be useful for an assault distraction flyrant, but you would be giving up Slay the Warlord before the end of turn 2. Hydra 3/10
The relic can be useful if you opt for deathspitters over devourers… and that’s it, Hydra tyrants don’t have much going for them.
A flyrant will not stay still, so that is one useless hive fleet adaptation and the relic is not what you want on a flyrant. That said, having a flyrant with the kronos warlord trait hovering over your lines can mess up a list based on psy powers so much that it is actually worth it to lose your warlord.
No hive fleet adaptation, useless stratagem, rarely useful relic and warlord trait not good enough to lose the warlord. Definitely not the fleet to spam flyrants.
Old One Eye: (named char)
OOE wants to get smashy, possibly together with his smashy pals. This fleet will help you avoiding those awkward situations where he charges alone or sits back while his pals charge.
Now that his has 9 wounds he no longer needs to be protected, the 6+++ is not necessary. The stratagem can be good if he opts for the crushing claws.
Kraken 2/10 Hmm, no! While he loves charging again and again at the same target, we are talking about OOE here, if what he charged has not gone down to the first charge, then it was something big enough to smash him. You will almost never get to use this trick with him, and he also doesn’t want to ultra advance and charge, he prefers to hang back, where those rippers can look menacing enough to get him ignored.
Rerolling 1’s to wound, can sometimes be good, but if he really wants to break stuff he will spend that CP and reroll all wounds. No toxin sacs. Hydra 1/10
No gain at all.
No gain at all.
Popping him out of a tunnel together with his pals can be nice, but he will not benefit from the hive fleet adaptation since at range he is not targetable. Tervigon:
Tervigons don’t like to assault and this is a deathly sin in a Behemoth fleet. Actually she doesn’t like to do any of the stuff that makes behemoth good.
Great thing the 6+++, she will need it. Everything else from Leviathan is useless.
Kraken relic, the wet dream of every tervigon. Everything else doesn’t get any use.
A Tervigon can try to achieve immortality (T9 3+ reduced incoming damage by 1), but will need the cover of venoms and catalyst to make it past the first phase with enough wounds left to make it count. The lack of an invul save really hurts. Hydra 2/10
Tervigons get almost nothing from the Hydra fleet. They can try the hydra warlord trait, but the opponent will rarely make it work.
No gain at all.
A 2+ tervigon is an happy tervigon and since she lacks an invul save, she is going to get the most out of it. The warlord trait can be good for all those termagants. Prime:
Like OOE a prime is happy as long as he is sharing a nice battle with his warrior pals. Rerolling charges will give him the necessary confidence in charging together with everyone.
If the Prime comes under fire then his time has probably come, and a 6+++ will not save him. All in all he doesn’t get much out of the stratagem and he can’t use the Relic.
The prime doesn’t want to charge alone and doesn’t need to fall back and charge. The relic is waster on him, he is not targetable. The Warlord trait is good though, the warriors do actually care about not hitting first, so a Kraken Prime is a nice support there.
No access to wounds rerolling on his own, and can take toxin sacs, the Prime does get a nice bonus from Gorgon. The warlord trait is marginally useful, but the relic is useless. Hydra 1/10
Hydra doesn’t offer much to our HQ choices, and Prime is no exception. He gets nothing.
A Kronos Prime in a swarm of gaunts is a good way to deliver the Kronos warlord trait. He will not stay still though, and he cannot take the Kronos relic.
Jormungandr has one of the few relics that are actually usable on a Prime. The cover isn’t really useful for an untargetable melee model.
Broodlord is yet another model who needs to be kept in company, and yet again Behemoth fleet helps with obtaining a good consistency out of your combined charges. This is also probably the best model for the Behemoth warlord trait, plenty of attacks, high WS, mid strength with rerolled wounds and ignores armor on 6 to wound. Really you can’t go wrong there.
Like the other untargettable models, a 6+++ isn’t really an help. The stratagem is partially useless since he already rerolls wounds and the warlord trait doesn’t effect him too much.
Kraken 8/10 The best fleet for the broodlord together with Behemoth. Advance on a 3d6 is so good when you can advance and charge. Don’t bother with the relic, it’s wasted on him, but keep the warlord trait since in the (unlikely) event that something survives the stealers assault and fights for another round, going first will do a lot of difference.
No gain at all. Hydra 1/10
No gain at all.
Kronos 1/10 if he is not your warlord 6/10 if he is.
If you are going for a stealer shock, then having this guy carry the invaluable Kronos warlord trait is a good move. That said, he doesn’t get anything else out of the Kronos fleet.
Nice! A cover bonus that doesn’t work on a model that advances and charges on a model that will advance and charge every turn! The tunneling stratagem is useful though, since the lictors always forget to bring the broolord together with the ‘stealers.
Neurothropes do not gain ANYTHING from any fleet. Maybe just a bit from Leviathan to save at 6+ those perils. If you make him your warlord you are putting your Slay the warlord point in bank, but you are not getting anything out of your warlord trait. No relic is useful for a Neurothrope.
Using the Behemoth stratagem on the warriors is not a good idea, but they surely love to throw themselves into the fight, and rerolling charges helps with that.
Warriors tend to become a fire magnet from turn 2 and onward, since by that time they are an advanced shadow and synapse, while also pestering your lines with deathspitters and menacing to connect with a charge. For this reason, giving them a 6+++ that makes them a less appealing target is a good idea. Being 3 wounds, they get the greatest benefit out of our unit line. D3 weapons are already few, and this adds a lot of uncertainty to using those weapons, so D2 weapons are bad, Dd3 are bad, Dd6 are bad and D3 are bad… you are telling your opponent that he can only bolter them down! The leviathan stratagem also works really well with rending claws and boneswords.
Falling back and charging isn’t really usefull with those guys, they don’t have the mobility to benefit from it. They also don’t want to launch themselves into the enemy lines
Gorgon warriors aren’t bad at all. Rerolling 1’s to wound is the only kind of wound reroll they can get. They have access to venom and the boneswords are excellent weapons to inoculate it. Better played in big groups with boneswords and a ranged weapon. Don’t take venom cannons, you will be advancing a lot, better go for a strangler and aim at something with 10 or more models.
Rerolling misses is nice, but you won’t be outnumbering your target on a regular basys.
Shooty warriors? With 24” spitters it could be possible, but limiting mobility on them has a sour taste.
Warriors coming out from a tunnel and spraying heavy bolter shots while sporting a 3+ is the best. Don’t charge, if you have melee weapons wait a turn and go for a guaranteed charge, or you will lose the bonus.
This is clearly THE hive fleet for genestealers. They want to arrive on the table and strike on that same turn, and rerolling charges does just that, provided that you have a taxi of some kind. If you don’t have a taxi then go for a different hive fleet. You may want to pay those 2 points for the extended carapace, after all you will hardly need to advance and charge when coming out of a taxi, even in the case that you don’t make contact.
A 6+++ will not save your ‘stealers, and the stratagem gives them MORE damage, which is the one thing that they don’t need.
Not taxiing your stealers? Kraken is your fleet! Turn 1 charge is almost guaranteed. Better to run multiple units, advance with all of them, the first one to make a good roll gets multiplied by the stratagem and charges. The other ones will serve as a second serving. You may use extended carapaces, but you will need a psyker ready to onslaught.
Rerolling ones to wound will mean more 6s rolled on those sweet rending claws, but again, it’s more damage. Do they really need it? They can take venom, but at a significant cost. Hydra 5/10
If you don’t play a broodlord then Hydra is actually good, rerolling a 3+ is a significant boost in damage output, not much better than the gorgon bonus though and still only a damage boost. If you already play Hydra for other reasons then genestealers can be good, but don’t play Hydra because of genestealers.
A ranged damage boost, just what genestalers needed…NO!
Stealers want to advance. Stealers want to charge. Stealers already have many taxis. Stealers don’t need Jormungandr!
Dedicated fast melee unit that also loves taxis + rerollable charges= Nice stuff. They are also one of the best possible targets for the Behemoth stratagem, between that and the caustic blood you can turn your gaunts into a good source of mortal wounds. Use them in 30-strong units.
So, so. Hormagaunts are really linear units, if you shoot at them with the wrong weapon then they will not go down fast enough, if you shoot with the right weapon they get vaporized. A 6+++ does not change this and they already have all the rerolls offered by the stratagem.
Kraken stratagem is a nice way to propel a unit of hormagaunts into the face of your opponents in turn 1, now launch catalyst on them, KEEP THEM UNDER SYNAPSE, and next turn disengage with the survivors and charge deep into their lines. Seriously good stuff. Not to be spammed though, max 1 or 2 units can do this.
Why oh why do venom sacs on hormagaunts cost 2 points?? Gorgon hormagaunts would be sooo cool otherwise! Instead, they don’t benefit much from the hive fleet adaptation, since they already get that bonus at 20 models and a 30-strong unit with venom sacs comes at 210 points… Hydra 6/10
Rerolling all misses instad of only 1’s is good, and hormagaunts have the numbers to reap this bonus with a reasonable certainty, but the role of hormagaunts is not to inflict damage, and even with this boost they don’t get far.
No gain at all.
They will not get the cover bonus a lot of times, but they really really love taxis. Will you try to charge turn 1? Or will you wait turn 2 for a guaranteed charge after a turn of 5+? The choice will depend on your opponent’s army.
Cheap termagants may like to get in melee, but usually it’s because you get them to be assaulted rather than the opposite.
Useful on cheapgants, not so much on devilgants which will still be excellent targets. The stratagem gives them no benefit.
Kraken 4/10 No good, they don’t want to charge ahead and don’t need to retreat and charge. The 3d6 advance though can prove useful.
Definitely a no. They don’t get almost anything out of Gorgon. Hydra 2/10
Sure, they will outnumber the enemy units, but the melee damage output of termagants isn’t ever a menace.
Good, but will you be able to stand still with termagants?
Taxi and added protection. Can’t really ask for more. This fleet makes for some excellent devil bombs and is the definite counter to meat screens… and not only them. Ripper swarms
Rippers can be a big bother for your enemy, deep striking and assaulting things that shoot and don’t fly. Behemoth helps with this.
Rippers die when the opponent wants them dead. A 6+++ changes nothing.
Let’s make things clear. When playing rippers YOU are the one keeping the other one stuck in melee, not the opposite! Why would you want a fleet that runs from melee?
Oh nice, increased damage on rippers, now they will really take down those IKs! Let’s try to be serious… Hydra 1/10
A damage boost on rippers that will rarely apply?
No gain at all, but they can be the sacrificial unit that gets dropped so you can use your stratagem safely.
Rippers don’t need a taxi and don’t need protection.
Same as warriors. They are a bad target for the Brute Force stratagem, but they like to get in melee.
Tyrant guards in Leviathan can exploit a particular combo. When the tyrant gets wounded, he will get to save the wound as per the Leviathan trait. Should he fail, he can pass that wound to a Tguard, which in turn gets to save it again on a 6+++. That makes for a really though nut to crack.
Most players tend to use Genestealers and hormagaunts for the Opportunistic advance stratagem, but Tguards do possess the mobility to be used that way. In particular, 3 tguards with crushing claws can be an unexpected solution to a pesky vehicle.
Reroll to wounds are surely good on Tguards, but they don't have enough attacks for the stratagem.
Definetely better than it looks. Tguards with crushing claws will always outnumber theyr intended targets, vehicles, and a bit more accuracy is just what they need. (Remember than you don't reroll the failed 3's, modifiers come after the reroll).
Who doesn't love 2+ guards?
This is a clear no. Hive guards want to stay clear of arms reach.
Leviathan 4/10 (impaler) 7/10 (shock)
Some more durability is never bad, in particular for shock guards. Impaler guards can usually find a safe place by themselves.
Hive guards do not need mobility.
This makes even less sense than behemoth on Hguards.
Again, another hive fleet that wants to push your Hguards in combat and have them reach a miserable end.
Kronos 8/10 (impaler) 6/10 (shock)
Finally one hive fllet that loves Hguards! The impalers will surely love this, and the shocks could gain something from it.
Jormungand 8/10 (shock) 5/10 (impaler)
Charging and advancing is something that Hguards don't do. That said impaler guards also have good chances of already being in cover. Shock guards don't, and this fleet helps them a lot.
Lictor (and Deathleaper):
They already reroll charges when it matters and are bad bad targets for Brute Force.
So so, Lictors don't need durability, but they also don't refuse it.
Not really good, Lictors already have a stratagem to fall back and charge (and shoot), and they always arrive from reserves.
This is good, Lictors lack in offensive capabilities, so Gorgon actually helps. No toxin sacs, but you were not going to use that strategem on them.
8th edition decided that Lictors are strictly single model units, so nothing to see here.
I'm totally going to keep my lictor still so that i can reroll 1's on his flesh hooks! Obviously i'm joking, but he is actually good as a sacrificial pawn 1st turn to deliver a Deepest Shadow.
Lictors with a 3+ in the open! Too bad that a lictor charges every single turn.
No, not going to charge.
T4 3W 3++ is probably the worst possible profile in the game for your opponent. You know what's worse than that? The same profile with a 6++, so your chances of taking them down with d3 damage weaponry become abysmal!
Zoans advance a lot, and doing that with 3d6 can offest that move 5" they have. Decent.
Rerolling ones to wound on those brain slaps will really teach your opponent not to mess with the brain bugs!... No.
Good, now they can sometimes reroll to hit on that single str 4 Ap- D1 attack!
If you are looking for the zoans that needed to hit with the warp lances, they were discarded with 7th edition.
Cover on a bug with a 3++? Really?
The Maleceptor isn't the scariest beast we have in melee, but it can pull some damage and he is safer there than out in the open.
Yes! Maleceptors are dangerous as long as they are alive, they don't degrade that much. For this reason, anything that makes them more durable is great for them.
Maleceptors are the distraction fexes of 8th edition and they want to get near the enemy as fast as possible to start messing with the enemy psychic phase. That said, if you use a metabolic advance instead of an opportunistic advance you are getting much further without sacrifcing the best features of a maleceptor.
This is not going to make a difference for your maleceptor.
Single model unit.
No gain at all, but since they like to get in there real fast, this can be a way to deliver the deepest shadow that requires some effort to be taken out.
Maleceptor has a 4++, so cover isn't really needed.
Not going to charge.
The venomthropes are high priority targets, they will not live past turn 2, often not even past turn 1. Take this trait for them and they will love you. Also, 3W combines well with 6+++ to shut down d3 damage weapons.
If, and that's a big if, your venoms are alive by turn 2, you will want them to tag along with your advacing guys. 3d6 help with that.
And again, pass.
Only useful if you can't find decent cover for your venom bugs.
Pyrovores like to be charged, not the opposite.
Leviathan is good as always, but in this case it is a bit better, since if it is your turn, you can acid blood from a wound and save it at the same time.
Pyrovores advance a lot since they use flamers, so they get something out of Kraken.
Pyrovores do possess some melee capability, but most of their damage comes from flames and acid.
Better than Gorgon usually, at least against vehicles.
No hit rolls, no Kronos.
Perfect fit. Pyrovores always have problems delivering their package, and Jormungar is great for that. Don't charge when coming out of the tunnels, and remember that pyrovores can spit flames up to 10" away, so you can do that immediately and then sit on your 3+.
Like all things that want to get in melee, the Haruspex has a lot to gain from Behemoth.
Like pyrovores, the Haruspex can combo acid blood and the 6+++. What really shines for him is the leviathan stratagem, he can really make use of rerolling all those 1's to generate extra attacks.
There will be other units in the army that want to use opportunistic advance, and the haruspex is too big to move around units with the fall back and charge trick.
The Haruspex hurts in melee, and rerolling wounds is nice.
Single model unit.
No ranged attacks.
Jormungard turns haruspici into Land raiders. Self healing T8 2+ is THOUGH!
Drager on our best anti tank options vs various things you will see on the table!
First off let's compare their damage profiles against various targets. In this case, I am assuming that both are in range and stationary. The range difference I'll discuss below.
Here the rupture cannon is a clear winner, if you are facing a meta replete with knights and titans the Rupture cannon is the better choice and worth the extra 16 points. The Bioplasmic Cannon is by no means bad though and catches up a lot with Pathogenic Slime, getting more of a boost than the Rupture Cannon. Against these targets 2-3 rupture cannons are what you want for certain.
"Rupture Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+/5++ Wounds: 24 Average Damage: 8 Wounds Probability of 6 or more wounds: 57%"
"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+/5++ Wounds: 24 Average Damage: 6.22 Wounds Probability of 6 or more wounds: 57%"
"Bioplasmic Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 8 Save: 2+ Wounds: 24 Average Damage: 5.33 Wounds Probability of 6 or more wounds: 55%"
"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+/5++ Wounds: 24 Average Damage: 3.56 Wounds Probability of 6 or more wounds: 26%"
Here again, the Rupture Cannon is better, so if the enemy army is overloading on Russ chassis it could be useful, however, unlike with super heavies you don't want more than one, in fact the optimal pair is Rupture Cannon and Exocrine, not wasting killing power or paying more than needed. If you are taking 3 weapon beasts and facing a Russ herd then 2 Rupture Cannon and 1 Exocrine seems best. If you are facing 2-3 heavy chassis then 2 Exocrine and 1 Rupture will get the job done nicely and leave you with other advantages.
"Rupture Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12 Average Damage: 10 Wounds Probability of 6 or more wounds: 72%"
"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12 Average Damage: 7.78 Wounds Probability of 6 or more wounds: 72%"
"Bioplasmic Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12 Average Damage: 6.67 Wounds Probability of 6 or more wounds: 68%"
"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12 Average Damage: 4.44 Wounds Probability of 6 or more wounds: 39%"
This is probably the most common vehicle toughness/save combination in 40k at the moment and the Bioplasmic Cannon with pathogenic slime is by far our best bet at totalling one in a single volley, although both it and a slimey Rupture Cannon tie on average damage. I would typically want to shoot this target with 2 things, however, as that will more likely succeed at the kill and in that case, two bioplasmic cannons or two Rupture Cannons is fine, although the Rupture cannon costs more for a very similar performance and much less of a boost with Slime. Very similar performance in this category. I'd probably take 3 Exocrines and a Biovore over 3 Tyrannofex against razorspam.
"Bioplasmic Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 7 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12 Average Damage: 10 Wounds Probability of 6 or more wounds: 89%"
"Rupture Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 7 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12 Average Damage: 10 Wounds Probability of 6 or more wounds: 72%"
"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 7 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12 Average Damage: 7.78 Wounds Probability of 6 or more wounds: 72%"
"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 7 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12 Average Damage: 6.67 Wounds Probability of 6 or more wounds: 69%"
Given the similar performance against armour (except super heavies) this is an important thing to look at, what else can these beasts do? And the answer is simple. Shoot infantry. The Biplasmic Cannon massively out performs at this secondary role.
"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 4 Save: 2+/5++ Wounds: 2 Average Damage: 7.11 Wounds Probability of 6 or more wounds: 74%"
"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 4 Save: 2+/5++ Wounds: 2 Average Damage: 4.44 Wounds Probability of 6 or more wounds: 39%"
"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 4 Save: 3+ Wounds: 1 Average Damage: 4.44 Wounds Probability of 6 or more wounds: 26%"
"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 4 Save: 3+ Wounds: 1 Average Damage: 2.78 Wounds Probability of 6 or more wounds: 1%"
"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 3 Save: 5+ Wounds: 1 Average Damage: 7.78 Wounds Probability of 6 or more wounds: 91%"
"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 3 Save: 5+ Wounds: 1 Average Damage: 3.89 Wounds Probability of 6 or more wounds: 7%" Range
The extra 12" of range rarely comes up in most deployment types, either they are 60+" away or within 48", especially if you hold your weapon beasts to deploy after their tanks.
Against super heavy armour, we actually have a different unit in the same price bracket that is better at killing them: Shock Cannon Hive Guard. These have their own set of issues though so are not clearly better (24" range being the big bugbear).
Writing this I've actually changed my mind. Whilst taking one or two of the big beasts I'd still go with 2 Exocrine, I'd say with 3 you want to split it 2 Exocrine/1 Tyrannofex. They are much closer than I originally thought. Thanks for getting me to reconsider.
Dynas made a chart showing % chance for success on a charge at various distances and various effects (Adrenal Glands and rerolls)
I had some spare time on my hands. I search for tables but couldn't find anything, so... I made a thing. Using mostly this website, and a little manual math. http://anydice.com/
Mathhammer tables for Charge ranges. Orange is a base 2d6 with no rerolls Blue is 2d6 and reroll the charge (both Dice) if result is less than 9". Basically charge from Deepstrike and using an ability that grants a reroll of charges. Yellow is 2d6 and reroll the charge (both Dice) if result is less than 8". Basically charge from Deepstrike, but you get a +1 to move or charges (adrenal glands on Tyranids for example). Green is 2d6 and reroll the charge (both Dice) if result is less than 7". I just chose 7 because that is the most probable number on 2d6. Purple is rerolling 1's on a single die.
Now the hardest one to figure was the Red. Roll 2d6, rerolling the single lowest die. Basically using a command point. The White table at the bottom is the data on this.
TL;DR Here are the Mathhammer results on Charging Tables.
Traceoftoxin with a chart detailing point cost per average damage against average vehicles (T7 3+ sv).
Traceoftoxin On charge/pile in/consolidate rules and how Hormagaunts 6" pile in is better then you might think.
One thing I keep seeing people misunderstanding (Not in this thread, specifically) is basic charge, pile in and consolidate rules, and how these apply to Hormagaunts. I've made some pics to illustrate the strength of the 6" pile in. [spoiler]
Lance845 on clearing Screens with a Termagant Bomb.
Being able to charge out of deepstrikes and transports has opened up melee a lot in the game. As a result players have begun to build a lot of screens or bubble wrap into their list to protect their more vital units from these first turn charges. Tyranids however have been given the tools to deliver a incredibly powerful weapon to clear away these screens or soften targets before they are hit in melee.
You will need 3 things. 1) A full unit of Termagants equiped with devourers. 2) A taxi or delivery method to deepstrike the Termagants into position. 3) 2 command points.
The default transport for the unit is a Trygon or Trygon Prime. They can bring a unit with them in their Trygon tunnel and their base is large enough to fit all 30 Termagants within the range needed to pull this off. Alternatively for 1 Command point you can use Pheromone Trail to bring them to a lictor, but you will still need a trygon to get the unit into reserves to begin with and it can be near impossible (if at all possible) to fit all 30 grants within 6" of the lictor. Finally, with the Jormungandr Hive Fleet for 1 CP you can use The Enemy Below to bring the unit in a tunnel and deepstrike with a much less expensive unit of Raveners, a Mawloc, trygon or Trygon Prime.
On your shooting phase the 30 Termagants with devourers will fire 90 strength 4 shots into whatever enemy screen they have rerolling 1s to wound. At the end of your shooting phase spend your 2 CP on Single-Minded Annihilation to have the unit shoot again. There are very few screens that can potentially survive 180 shots. Chances are you will have completely annihilated any protection they had set up on their front line and softened up some of your prime targets for your first turn charges. You may even expose now target-able characters that were hiding behind the line so the rest of your army can shoot away at them. Learn to love the Termagant Bomb. It is a potent tool in our arsenal to break an enemies protective lines or just plain lay down some incredible amounts of dakka to put a dent in the enemies army.
This message was edited 59 times. Last update was at 2018/02/19 03:26:54
Jormungar: Always in cover is a very good one. Effectivly +1 armour save.
Kraken: Charge after falling back is good with flying to penetrate deeper into enemie lines. Gargoyles in particular.
Leviathan: If this is re-roll shooting and wound, once per unit, it is insane with 1 model units. Perhaps good for the tyranofex big gun.
Kronos: reroll 1's if you did not move. Good for gunlines, very good for tyrant guard if they keep the 36".
hivefleet behemoth warlord trait: on 6's to wound he deals an additional damage. Does this work with dakka flyrants?
-Behemoth: Reroll failed charges, good for reserve strike armies. Especialy if adrenal glands stil give +1 to charge.
-hivefleet behemoth stratagem: 2cp, choose on unit. roll a d6 for each charging model. for each 6 deal 1 mortal wound to the enemy unit it charged. for monsters its on a roll of 2+. 30 gaunts = an averadge 5 6s. 5 mortal wounds for 2 points yes please. Behemot also have the re-roll charge strategem Nice.
- If the jormunghal strategem is like the 5th edition trygon tunnel, move from where one of your snakes popped up, and they can charge you can sett up some tricky turn 2 charges. Wormsign anyone?
Would there be any reason to take a scything tallon carnifex over a screamer killer?
-1 to hit vs fexes seems good. Can some mathammer it though? Is it worth the points or should it just be more carnifexes? +1 bs (probably the antenna head) looks very strong. BS3+ carnifexes, yes please.
2cp stratagem: choose one unit. at the end of the shooting phase it shoots again. (cannot target monsters) : This is made for big units of hive guards or biovores.
The tyranofex actually goes up in cost? It is over costed already. I am a bit sceptical to some of these rumours.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/10/29 20:14:29
I am sooo stoked...if I can field Screamer Killers while sober, all is well. Maybe they can pop out of Tunnels with a Strat? in any case, I was saying to my son, that a Strat that lets you "stack" a Tunnel for multiple arrivals is both cool, and fluffy. And it changes play in a "good" way. It could sort of add a "spawn point" to the map.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So: Hydra is the Hormagaunt fleet looks like...Kronos the Termagant/Devil gant fleet....
Automatically Appended Next Post: Trygon, x30 Devilgants/Termagants in the Tunnel, us CP to shoot twice...no more bubblewrap?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Behemith is the DS Fleet, and Leviathan is the special unit Fleet, most of the time Elites and HQ's benefit the most from double re-rolling....like a Tyrant in CC? (re roll to hit/ to wound possably exploding 6's)
I hope they make Bone sabres decent in some way...maybe add one Mortal on 6+ would be enough....
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/10/29 21:49:26
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Gorgon is the one that is fighting the tau aigain and again, right?
Jormundgard (being Norse) is close to the north?
What about the last 2 unknown, any fluff piece?
So...if we get re-roll to charge. And we have adrenal glands. There is a 64% chance to make the 9" charge with the re-roll after comming from reserves. More if we use a command point on one of the dice if one dice come up high, and one low.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/30 00:50:12
Kronos is going to make shooty builds interesting. Hive Guard/Biovores would both love to shoot twice. Exocrines would LOVE to reroll 1's when they don't move. 3 Exocrines supported by a bunch of Hive Guard and Biovores, protected by Malethropes and screened by 'stealers or a giant pile of 'gaunts could potentially put out a lot of damage.
Subject: Re:Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
babelfish wrote: Kronos is going to make shooty builds interesting. Hive Guard/Biovores would both love to shoot twice. Exocrines would LOVE to reroll 1's when they don't move. 3 Exocrines supported by a bunch of Hive Guard and Biovores, protected by Malethropes and screened by 'stealers or a giant pile of 'gaunts could potentially put out a lot of damage.
Indeed. I think it's going to be hard not to take always in cover. As it stands right now the only thing nids really need is defense.
"We are eternal all this pain is an illusion"
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Many updates. Anything from a source that is not Seag is in red, simply because I wanted to sort out anyone not the guy who seems most credible from the others. But it all seems pretty on point to me for the most part.
A unit with this adaptation (other than units that can fly) always has the benefit of cover for the purpose of shooting attacks. If the unit advances or charges, however, it loses the benefits of this adaptation until the start of your movement phase.
Still seems good to me. Charging you would loose the benefit anyway cause your in combat. Though you could end up loosing it when they fall back. Not workig on Fly sucks but that mostly means Flyrants and Gargoyls.
Been up watching thehivemind like all night, i'm so excited, some of the CP's are just amazing, some of the upgrades and HQ units are now amazing!
I cant wait!
Neurothopes HQ's, lol i think i need to convert my at least 3 Zoans to Neurothropes now.
I think this is going to be very strong:
2cp single minded annihilation end of shoot phase, choose inf unit, shoot again
1cp pheromone trail
choose when nid inf set up as reinf/reserve. if got lictor on battlefield, you can set up wholly within 6 inch of lictor and more than 9 from enemy
Devil Gants (30man lets say) Thats 180 bolter shots, thats 80 wounds to T3 units (before saves) thats really good!
Tyranids for sure will need to have 2-3 detachments to gain fully benefits from Hive Fleets
15k+ 12k+ 5k :Harlequin: 4k
Reading/Writing LD, be kind!
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
No shrieks was kinda expected since I doubt they were doing to re-do the whole warrior sprue again. Also I expect spike rifles and other gaunt weapons are gone as well - back down to terma, devil and spinefist gaunts.
The neurothrope being its own HQ is an interesting choice and perhaps this speaks well of GW giving a few more hero units into the army through dataslate releases in the future.
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured