Sim-Life wrote:
Super speedy but fragile Gorgon Genestealers or slightly slower super armored 3+ Jormungandr genestealers? Opinions?

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
Super speedy but fragile Gorgon Genestealers or slightly slower super armored 3+ Jormungandr genestealers? Opinions?

Jormungandr sucks for a CQC army, best tactics are Behemoth/Hydra/Kraken for CQC in that order

I dont agree, i think it is highly dependent on many other factors.

Re-rolling Fail charges IS very strong, but i wouldnt say the best. Fallback and charge isnt good IMO for CC nid armies with Gants and its 6" consolidate, genestealers etc.. i would take this trait ever. Re-roll misses on the other hand for outnumbering is good.

You need to also look at the stratagems at the same time.

Stratagem: Hypertoxicity (1CP)
Use during the Fight Phase. Choose a Gorgon unit equipped with Toxin Sacs. The biomorph does 1 additional damage on To_Wound rolls <----Always good

Stratagem: Endless Swarm (2cp)**
Select a destroyed unit of Termagants, Hormsgaunts, Gargoyles, or any Hydra Infantry unit that has been completely destroyed. Add an identical unit to your army and set it up as reinforcements wholly within 6” of any board edge, and more than 9 inch from any enemy units <-----Do you need to pay Reinforcement points?

Stratagem: Opportunistic Advance (1CP)
Use in the Movement Phase. Choose a Kraken unit that does not have the Fly keyword. When Advancing you can double number you roll when determining how much to add to the unit's Movemnt characteristic <--- Good if footslugging


Im just saying, depeding on Stratagems, playstyle (DSing vs footslug) and other units in your army or detachment it will depend on what you need to take.

Endless Swarm is terrible unfortunately, the Reinforcement rules are just not playable in current state so Hydra starts without a Stratagem, Kraken one does seem good but unless you're a Genestealer you're not really making any decent use out of Opportunistic Advance (and it has no real Sinergy with its Hive Fleet Tactic).

Hypertoxicity is just bad, you're not taking Toxin Sacs in the first place and even if you do you're paying a CP just add +1 on that rule (and you could just pay 3 CP to attack again and do much more damage)

 Lance845 wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
I wonder what Synapse creature would be best to stick with a Tyrannofex gunline.

With what I have read so far I still don't think Tyrannofexes are the way to go. Their guns still don't have the range to be effective with their bonus rules. That being said, a brood of warriors with a biocannon looks to be fairly inexpensive and can add fire support at roughly the same range as the Exocrines.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Astmeister wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
I wonder what Synapse creature would be best to stick with a Tyrannofex gunline.

With what I have read so far I still don't think Tyrannofexes are the way to go. Their guns still don't have the range to be effective with their bonus rules. That being said, a brood of warriors with a biocannon looks to be fairly inexpensive and can add fire support at roughly the same range as the Exocrines.

I think the 36 inch of the Capsule Cannon should be enough. Also 6 LasCan shoots on one model are not exactly terrible. I would play him....
Additionally, it is not know yet how good a normal venom cannon will be, right?

We haven't hear of any boosts to the tyrannofexes stat line yet. If it's 6 shots at BS 4+ doing d6 dmg (averaging 3 hits and a potential 3-18 dmg (9-12ish average)) or you can have 12 shots at BS 3+ doing 2 dmg each. (Average 8 hits and a potential 16 dmg consistently) for less points then the Tyrannofexes.

Spoletta wrote:
We can finally make the hive tyrant our warlord without it dying in a single shooting phase!

Give it the sixth trait and 3 tguards, survive one shooting phase by dumping all wounds on the guards except one (easy with T7 and 4++, especially with a -1).
Now you have -1 damage from all sources, which means that he requires at least 2 more full rounds of shooting to go down (with catalyst), and your opponent will not get that many.
With a 18" synapse, cheaper boneswords and the relic venom cannon my walkrant will become a nightmare.

I'm going to make him the head of my behemoth battalion.

 Niiai wrote:
If the creature is within synapse, and within cover, there is from a math perspective no difference between a 2+ or 3+ followed by 6+++. Each instance of a 1 on the dice is 16,66% chance to save. (I am negating the posabilaty of a Ap-5.)

While it is near impossible to get cover saves on MC's, you do have the possabilaty. Other nids do not have the posabillaty to get 6+++.

Solo MC's will not get the 6+++, så Jhormunghard is better there. This is asuming you never advance, or charge. Many of the MC's have assault weapons, but it is unlikly they will advance. They will charge though.

Depending on the wording, the hive tyrant/tyrant guard might be benefitted most for the 6+++. The tyrant has 3+ 4++ 6+++ 2+ tranfer to tyrant guard. If the guards then get 6+++ again, it would be awsome.

Perhaps even throw in the core rulebook 6+++ warlord trait for even better ods.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
I feel the Tyrannofex is going to be very important for anti tank.
3 + 3 S10 AP-3 D6 damage shots is hard to beat.
Especially combined with the reroll 1s trait.

Tyrannofex so hot right now.

6.82 wounds to Rhino

Honestly, worst than i thought.

Edit: This is without CP re-roll on Damage dice, Nids feels like they will eat through CP's now, so i'm doing all math without Re-roll CP's

One Example is the Sporefield "after both armies deploy, add up 2 unit of spore mines as reinf, more than 12 inch from enemy" Spore Mines dont cost Reinforcement points, so this one seems like a must most games.

 dan2026 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
I feel the Tyrannofex is going to be very important for anti tank.
3 + 3 S10 AP-3 D6 damage shots is hard to beat.
Especially combined with the reroll 1s trait.

Tyrannofex so hot right now.

6.82 wounds to Rhino

Honestly, worst than i thought.

Edit: This is without CP re-roll on Damage dice, Nids feels like they will eat through CP's now, so i'm doing all math without Re-roll CP's

One Example is the Sporefield "after both armies deploy, add up 2 unit of spore mines as reinf, more than 12 inch from enemy" Spore Mines dont cost Reinforcement points, so this one seems like a must most games.

I don't doubt your math.
But I doubt anything else in the book can accomplish the same task at range.

 dan2026 wrote:

 Astmeister wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
I feel the Tyrannofex is going to be very important for anti tank.
3 + 3 S10 AP-3 D6 damage shots is hard to beat.
Especially combined with the reroll 1s trait.

Tyrannofex so hot right now.

6.82 wounds to Rhino

Honestly, worst than i thought.

Edit: This is without CP re-roll on Damage dice, Nids feels like they will eat through CP's now, so i'm doing all math without Re-roll CP's

One Example is the Sporefield "after both armies deploy, add up 2 unit of spore mines as reinf, more than 12 inch from enemy" Spore Mines dont cost Reinforcement points, so this one seems like a must most games.

I don't doubt your math.
But I doubt anything else in the book can accomplish the same task at range.

Well an Exocrine with Kronos would do 7.8 wounds average on a Rhino. The Tyrannofex is mostly better if you roll hot or the enemy has T8+.

In the games I play most Vehicles seem to have toughness 8. Dreads, tanks you name it.
The Exocrine gun wouldn't be strong enough.

 dan2026 wrote:
Would Tyrant Guard be essential for a walking shooty Tyrant?

shogun wrote:

shogun wrote:
.....
HQ: Neurothrope (babysitting biovores)
.......

Dynas wrote: @ shogun, you have no synapse for your biovores.

ehhh yes I do..


I don't understand why tyranid players are so hyped up about the whole 'reroll charge' bonus (behemoth). Getting 3 tyranid units in close combat with the 'bubble wrap' conscripts instead of only one unit, doesn't make a difference. Bubble wrap dies or falls back and tyranids get shot in the face just like before.

Dynas wrote:
Thoughts on taking this Brigade just for CP spam. Comes out 753 points, leaves you with 1250 ish for whatever you want. Just trying to make the cheapest list possible. Getting 9+3+X CP. Massive -1 for malanthrope, hold rippers underground to tunnel objectives. Spore mines for DS denial, Biovores are always solid choice. Lictor to DS/Disrupt enemy backline. Thoughts on this? What would we fill out with the remaining 1250?

HQ
Malanthrope -90
Malanthrope -90
Malanthrope -90

Troops
Ripper Swarm x3 - 33
Ripper Swarm x3 - 33
Ripper Swarm x3 - 33
Ripper Swarm x3 - 33
Ripper Swarm x3 - 33
Ripper Swarm x3 - 33

Fast Attack
Spore Mine x3 -30
Spore Mine x3 -30
Spore Mine x3 -30

Elites
Lictor-41
Lictor-41
Lictor-41

Heavy Support
Biovore -24
Biovore -24
Biovore -24

 Xenomancers wrote:
How disgusting is kronos going to be with their warlord trait plus strategem. So if they fail any test within 18 inches (it's always on) psyker takes d3 mortal wounds. They are already -1 to cast for shadow in the warp and you can always use the stratagem for them to only use 1 dice! I mean - you are ether going to get a lot of free mortal wounds or they will just decide not to cast powers until your warlord is dead.

Both of these are great news for the your army that game.

 Zimko wrote:

 Astmeister wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
How disgusting is kronos going to be with their warlord trait plus strategem. So if they fail any test within 18 inches (it's always on) psyker takes d3 mortal wounds. They are already -1 to cast for shadow in the warp and you can always use the stratagem for them to only use 1 dice! I mean - you are ether going to get a lot of free mortal wounds or they will just decide not to cast powers until your warlord is dead.

Both of these are great news for the your army that game.

Unfortunately it does not really help against some super psykers like Magnus, since he gets a +2 or +3 to cast anyway.
But I think that is will be really nasty against cheap smite spam lists.

It still helps, how expensive is that warp time ability that allows him to move again? Even with +2, on 1 d6 he may not get ut. And if he does, you still have a decent chance at denying. If I can keep him from double moving or gaining +1 invul then that will be a big help.

Mandragola wrote:
Do people think it matters that harpies and hive crones are in the flyer slot in the codex, rather than fast attack? I think it'll have a number of effects:

- They won't be any use to fill out a brigade. Not sure that matters much as they are pretty pricey for that role.

- You'll be able to have a flyer wing if you have three of them. Again not much of a big deal as HQs seem good, and neurothropes are cheap as well. HQs aren't much of a "tax" for Nids.

- They won't be able to score once chapter approved comes out. This is a really big deal for a unit with a 30" move. Pretty major nerf.

- It will be possible to table you without killing them. This could well matter, especially if you take 3+ of them. That's close to 25% of your points at 2k, which your opponent can ignore if going for a tabling.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

Resipsa131 wrote:
Related to fighting the charged unit. Which models get to fight all of them or only the models that are within an inch of the models that are in base contact?

Read your rulebook. It's 8 pages.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoiler:

So, I made a simple chart for anti-vehicle (T7/3+) that gives average damage and cost. This ONLY measures damage efficiency. If I didn't include it, it's probably because it's not cost-competitive. That is to say, a Hive Tyrant will never be a cost efficient source of anti-vehicle, because it pays a lot of points for mobility, durability, psyker powers, etc. I was hesitant to include statlines for buffed units (E.G. WS2 Genestealers via broodlord, WS2 Carnifex from charging+OOE, etc.) because it's impossible to measure their cost on a per-model basis, but I put them in just to show the kind of efficiency gains you get from them.

I'm not really surprised to see buffed Genestealers are, by a massive margin, the best anti-tank in the book. More interesting though, is that unbuffed (WS3 A3) Genestealers are barely less effective than our most effective ranged anti-tank. They are also better than any Carnifex that isn't buffed by OOE, and only marginally worse than a Trygon. In a group of 10 or more, they're just better than the Trygon. Seeing the nice little buff Acid Maw gives wasn't a surprise, but if you notice a lack of Toxin Sac Acid Maw... it's because Acid Maw is actually WORSE than RC with TS. This is because Acid Maw allows a save on the D2 wounds, whereas the RC are -4, so it's guaranteed D2. Basically, if you are running TS genestealers, you may not want Acid Maw, or you may want to remove them first if you're trying to maximize your AT abilities. The Broodlord does an impressive amount of damage for a character who also provides synapse, SITW, buffs and is a psyker.

In shooting, the shock guard are #1 because of MW generation. Despite buffs to the Rupture cannon, the Exocrine does more damage for less. I accidentally put the exocrine BS4 value in without cutting it's shots in half, I suppose that entry can be useful for considering firing at a -1 target or something... /shrug. With Impaler cannons being more efficient and more flexible than the rupture cannon, unless you expect to run into T8 vehicles, there doesn't appear to be much reason to bring a tyrannofex. BS3 VC warriors are actually pretty efficient anti-tank, but once you include the rest of their squad, it's far less impressive. If you could keep splitting the fire and targeting infantry with the DS, then it may be worth investing in a big squad with 3 VC. To add further insult to the Tyrannofex, a HVC+2xDS Fex with BS3 is basically as cost efficient for anti-tank. Harpies and both types of dakkafex are just not good for anti-tank (Though they are a tiny bit out of order in the chart, sorry). Devourer gaunts are actually respectable for AT duties, with a full squad of 30 averaging 5.1 damage.

TL;DR - Genestealers are the most cost efficient damage in our codex. Trygons, Melee fex and Broodlords are all pretty good. Shock guard and Exocrines are our best ranged AT. Hive Guard are basically the same average as a Tyranno, though the Tyranno has a much higher damage potential.

 Dynas wrote:
Im really glad to see people are having success with Leviathan and Kraken. I was personally looking at those two fleets and think they are probably the best 2. I know a lot of people like Jormugandr and Kronos, but I think that the cover bonus on Jormugandr is too limiting since you don't get it if you advance or charge.

Sure it might be good for gaunts, get a 5+ save but there is a lot of AP out there that will chew through that armor. You might as well get a guaranteed 6+++ FnP with leviathan. With the amount of Synapse creatures (even without taking warriors), its fairly easy to keep the UNIT withing 6" to ensure the survivability and basically 16.667% more wounds for your entire army.

As for Kraken, TraceofToxin demonstrated the effectiveness of speed. Movement and positioning wins games, not Firepower. If you can maneuver and dictate the board on your terms, then the opponent is playing a reactionary game.

The genestealers with Kraken our SOOOO FAST. Especially if you infestation node them right at the edge or your deployment zone. You can sneak at extra 6" out of that with the nodes, move 8, advance highest of 3d6 a good chance at a 6, charge 2d6; that's a potential 32 (6+8+6+12)" move; add another 14" if you take Swarmlord. And as mentioned do it all over again for 4 cp. 32+14+14=60" movement. (or say you roll 4 on advances, and 7 on charge) that's still 25" average(6+8+4+7), 37" (8+4 if you use the 4 CP stratagem), or 49" if you use swarmy to get another move and advance. You are easily going board edge to board edge, even if its long deployment.

I am curious about other peoples first game experiences with the various hive fleets and how they went.

Spoletta wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Has anyone mathammered HC’ s tentaclids versus Harpy’s two Venom Cannon? My gut feeling is the more conventional heavy firepower looks more useful than the electrocritter gimmick


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:
Out of interest, if you use GSC and bring an IG detachment, are you allowed to use an IG character as your warlord?

As of yet there is no requirement that your Warlord have your army’s Faction, but I wouldn’t expect that to last beyond a couple of FAQ revisions

Against T7 3+ or T8 3+ 4 tentaclids inflict 1,5 wounds while 2 heavy venom cannons inflict 2,6. Against a T7 3+ with hard to hit they both inflict 1,7 damage. Against a flying tank with T7 or T8 tentaclids inflict 2,6 wounds. The drool cannon adds 0,6 wounds to all those targets.

In the end the harpy wins by 0,5 wounds against non flying targets. Chrone wins by 0,6 against Hemlocks and similar targets and by 0,5 wounds against fire prism like targets.

Spoletta wrote:

 Astmeister wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Has anyone mathammered HC’ s tentaclids versus Harpy’s two Venom Cannon? My gut feeling is the more conventional heavy firepower looks more useful than the electrocritter gimmick


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:
Out of interest, if you use GSC and bring an IG detachment, are you allowed to use an IG character as your warlord?

As of yet there is no requirement that your Warlord have your army’s Faction, but I wouldn’t expect that to last beyond a couple of FAQ revisions

Against T7 3+ or T8 3+ 4 tentaclids inflict 1,5 wounds while 2 heavy venom cannons inflict 2,6. Against a T7 3+ with hard to hit they both inflict 1,7 damage. Against a flying tank with T7 or T8 tentaclids inflict 2,6 wounds. The drool cannon adds 0,6 wounds to all those targets.

In the end the harpy wins by 0,5 wounds against non flying targets. Chrone wins by 0,6 against Hemlocks and similar targets and by 0,5 wounds against fire prism like targets.

Actually a Crone's Tentaclids deal 1.73 wounds, while the HVC of the Harpy do 1.78 wounds. And you should also factor in the bomb drop of the Harpy

Hmm no, my math says:

4 tentaclids
2 hits
at S5 you wound on 5+ (0,33)
at no AP you get saved on 3+ (0,33)

2*0,33*0,33= 0,218
To this you add the shock damage:

2 hits, every hit inflicts 0,66 mortal wounds for a toal of 1,32 wounds, which added to 0,218 totals about 1,5

The HVC:

4 shots
2 hits
at S9 it wounds on 3+ (0,66)
at AP-2 you get saved at 5+ (0,66)
3 damage for each unsaved wound

2*0,66*0,66*3= 2,6

Also, i only accounted for the ranged threats. Spore drop is not a ranged threat.

Spoletta wrote:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
No I think warriors are good. But the claim that they are the cheapest source of good high S ranged shooting just can't be right.

I said the third cheapest. And it is. Do the math yourself. It's pretty simple. Or you can just look at the numbers I put up for everyone to read.

As I mentioned, I don't factor in the cost of an Alpha, or the other two warriors. Just the cost of the model vs other models. Even without and alpha, firing at BS4, a VC warrior is still the 8th most cost effective model in our army against T7 3+, within 10% of the effectiveness of Impaler guard, HVC+2x Deathspitter BS3 fex and the rupture cannon tyrannofex.

It's just a matter of VC warriors being WAY cheaper than all of the other platforms.

When you figure in the cost of the full unit, they're not good at all. But, because you can split fire, and because the unit can be used for multiple purposes in 8th edition, that is deceptive. You can be firing every turn with 6 deathspitter warriors at infantry squads, and 3 VC warriors at tanks. You're not wasting any points on shooting tanks with deathspitters, so those 3 VC warriors are performing to maximum efficiency with their guns.

I agree with this reasoning, especially now that those deathspitters are range 24".

I love warriors as AT, they are durable, long range and mobile.
Exochrine is really good mathwise, but being range 24" immobile is not always practical. Now that assault armies are on the rise (tyranids were the first, now it comes blood angels and chaos demons), range 24" will carry a serious risk of being assaulted.

changemod wrote:
Do Tyrant Guard have much use now? I notice their attacks have gone up to 3 each if nothing else. Could maybe be loose terminator equivalents in Jormungandr with their higher toughness and save plus crushing claws?

 Niiai wrote:
I thought you said best, not 3rd best. It must be my dyslexia.

I amm all for warriors. I even thought they where good in the index before the decrase in devourers and upgrade and increase in wennom cannon. Swords even became cheaper.

I do think it is a fallocy not counting the prime though. The prime is not so impressive by himself. It has a bad range option, deathspitter onlyr , and only rending claws or boneswords in CC, and no psykick powers. Big brother tyrant, neuronthrope and broodlord all outperform him. You are only taking prime if you take warriors. And only 15/18 of them before he starts becoming cheap. You need a considerable amount of your list dedicated for it. Mind you warriors has a lot going for them. But the other heavy weapon platforms you can often just jam into any list more or less.

If you want a small 3 man group of 2 regular and 1 venom cannon you can just take the carnifex with deathspitters and heavy venom cannon. Even though it is exspensive you can argue the same deathspitters can fire at something else. The flat 3 damage is very nice on the heavy venom cannon. (Although exoshrine with damage stratgem can do the same.)

changemod wrote:

 Astmeister wrote:

changemod wrote:
Do Tyrant Guard have much use now? I notice their attacks have gone up to 3 each if nothing else. Could maybe be loose terminator equivalents in Jormungandr with their higher toughness and save plus crushing claws?

They can be quite good Tank Hunters with Crushing claws coming in as deep strike. The only problem is that Genestealers are much better in melee even against tanks.

Against T8 3+:

6 Tyrant Guard with CC - 9.9 wounds , 29.7 points per wound
20 Genestealers - 8.9 wounds, 27 points per wound
20 GS with toxin sacs - 17.8 wounds, 18 points per wound

It might be interesting to use Tyrant Guard in a Leviathan detachement next to a Hive Tyrant. The HT can roll a 6+ FNP for every wound, transfer it to the TG and they again can take the 6+ FNP for every wound. This makes the overall unit very durable.

Well okay sure, but I have an existing Genestealer cult army if all I wanted to do was spam stealer shock.

ruminator wrote:

 Astmeister wrote:

changemod wrote:
Do Tyrant Guard have much use now? I notice their attacks have gone up to 3 each if nothing else. Could maybe be loose terminator equivalents in Jormungandr with their higher toughness and save plus crushing claws?

They can be quite good Tank Hunters with Crushing claws coming in as deep strike. The only problem is that Genestealers are much better in melee even against tanks.

Against T8 3+:

6 Tyrant Guard with CC - 9.9 wounds , 29.7 points per wound
20 Genestealers - 8.9 wounds, 27 points per wound
20 GS with toxin sacs - 17.8 wounds, 18 points per wound

It might be interesting to use Tyrant Guard in a Leviathan detachement next to a Hive Tyrant. The HT can roll a 6+ FNP for every wound, transfer it to the TG and they again can take the 6+ FNP for every wound. This makes the overall unit very durable.

Problem is tyrant guard are meant to die if they do their job properly so I'm not sure about spending points on them. You can always drop them in and ignore their ability to keep a tyrant alive but then then you need that 9" charge or they are dead. Out in the open they are not difficult to kill and with crushing claws they are not getting near any tanks - but as a distraction they may work and soak up some high S shooting. I might give them a try but not convinced. For anti-tank I'm still leaning towards 18 hive guard to be honest but getting those models is a slow burner!