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Made in us
Dominating Dominatrix






Spoletta wrote:
Guys am i the only one that is thinking about a tyrannofex with fleshborer hive?

40 S5 shots +1 to wound and damage 2?

Plus 8 S5 shots damage 2?

Yeah, no AP but something has to pass!


You will never get 40 shots. The Hives are only range 18" I think. An enemy would have to willingly move within 18" of you and then choose not to charge. The Tyrannofex will be blasted off the board from longer range or will get so tied up in a melee that is never fires it's guns once all game. For about the same points you could almost bring a full broods of devil gaunts shooting 60 times rerolling 1s, at the same range, without having to stand still.



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

The Nazis were right. It's better to be a Nazi than a fan.

Thank you for getting me on the side of Milo and the Nazis.

 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

KurtAngle2 wrote:
OOE and Swarmlord are not tied to any Fleet and that has been confirmed several times


I'm just not seeing the source where this was confirmed. Sorry for beating a dead horse here but I do not see it.

I see that Swarmlord is not associated with leviathan but that doesn't mean he isn't associated with another fleet, for example.

I understand we're dealing with leaks here but i'm not seeing a good confirmation of this fact.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in nz
Dakka Veteran




Auckland, NZ

 Xenomancers wrote:

Old one eye I could see being restricted - though I have no idea what hive fleet he's rumored to come from.

In the fluff, old one eye is from Behemoth. Although the fluff does mention that reports of carnifexes with a similar description have appeared across many other areas.

I highly suspect that none of the tyranid characters will be limited to a particular hive fleet. There are only four of them (unless more have been added, which I'm sure we would have heard about by now), so there aren't enough to give every fleet at least one.
   
Made in us
Dominating Dominatrix






I didn't bother posting the bit about OOE and Swarmlord not being tied to fleets because it's not a change. It is true though. They continue to be able to be taken by any fleet. OOE however DOES get the behemouth WL trait regardless (acording to the rumors... haven't seen the sheet myself).


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

The Nazis were right. It's better to be a Nazi than a fan.

Thank you for getting me on the side of Milo and the Nazis.

 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Marmatag wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:
OOE and Swarmlord are not tied to any Fleet and that has been confirmed several times


I'm just not seeing the source where this was confirmed. Sorry for beating a dead horse here but I do not see it.

I see that Swarmlord is not associated with leviathan but that doesn't mean he isn't associated with another fleet, for example.

I understand we're dealing with leaks here but i'm not seeing a good confirmation of this fact.


It has been confirmed on the other forum by the same guy who gave us most of the spoiler (lordhiraku).
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

Spoletta wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:
OOE and Swarmlord are not tied to any Fleet and that has been confirmed several times


I'm just not seeing the source where this was confirmed. Sorry for beating a dead horse here but I do not see it.

I see that Swarmlord is not associated with leviathan but that doesn't mean he isn't associated with another fleet, for example.

I understand we're dealing with leaks here but i'm not seeing a good confirmation of this fact.


It has been confirmed on the other forum by the same guy who gave us most of the spoiler (lordhiraku).


Ok, thank you. Sorry for the noise everyone. This is just important for planning purposes.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Dominating Dominatrix






If all of this shapes up to be really true I am most excited for our general balance. I don't see anything in the leaks that looks like it's incredibly broken. There is no option we have that looks like it entirely dominates the table. and brings the uber cheese.

We look to have many viable options available to us for a really strong internal balance they can deal with just about any threat depending on how you build for a very excellent external balance.

That is the best possible scenario. Nids might just be the most balanced dex so far. I am ecstatic.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

The Nazis were right. It's better to be a Nazi than a fan.

Thank you for getting me on the side of Milo and the Nazis.

 
   
Made in us
Tough Tyrant Guard






 Marmatag wrote:
 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Statistically, 4x MC devourers are superior to 4x MC Deathspitters against every target in the game except T7 3+, and even then it's only ~10% better.

4x MC devourers are superior to TL Asscans against every target.

Dakkafex are our version of Assbacks. 4-6 for every list.


Because 2x Devourers per fex is now 24 shots. That's pretty nifty. But at 18".

Comparing to Razorback (which doesn't move), and neither has access to rerolls:

Against 2+ save, the razorback wins, 33% more effective.
Against 3+ save, it's even.
Against 4+ save, the dakkafex is 13% more effective.
Against 5+ save, the dakkafex is 20% more effective.
Against 6+ save, the dakkafex is 25% more effective.

Built purely for this dakka and nothing else in its utility belt, the Dakkafex is cheaper, as well, but doesn't transport troops, although that hardly matters.

Solid buff. Gonna "spam" these.


Dakkafex has 18" range, but fires at full when moving, with 7" move, so can effectively put its fire down more flexibly, however the razor can move 12 and fire at 4+, and has much better access to rerolls. It's very comparable, though I'd give advantage to razorback.

However, You did your math wrong somewhere. Both are BS3+

Against T7
2+ Both are .88
3+ AC 1.33, Dev 1.77
4+ AC 1.7, Dev 2.6
5+ AC 2.22, Dev 3.55
6+ AC 2.66, Dev 4.44

Dakkafex should be 6 pts more than the razorback. 16 more with the -1 to hit, which you should always take, as it effectively makes the Carnifex 9-16W depending on BS of firing units.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/30 19:55:01


 
   
Made in us
Dominating Dominatrix






 Traceoftoxin wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Statistically, 4x MC devourers are superior to 4x MC Deathspitters against every target in the game except T7 3+, and even then it's only ~10% better.

4x MC devourers are superior to TL Asscans against every target.

Dakkafex are our version of Assbacks. 4-6 for every list.


Because 2x Devourers per fex is now 24 shots. That's pretty nifty. But at 18".

Comparing to Razorback (which doesn't move), and neither has access to rerolls:

Against 2+ save, the razorback wins, 33% more effective.
Against 3+ save, it's even.
Against 4+ save, the dakkafex is 13% more effective.
Against 5+ save, the dakkafex is 20% more effective.
Against 6+ save, the dakkafex is 25% more effective.

Built purely for this dakka and nothing else in its utility belt, the Dakkafex is cheaper, as well, but doesn't transport troops, although that hardly matters.

Solid buff. Gonna "spam" these.


Dakkafex has 18" move, but fires at full when moving, with 7" move, so can effectively put its fire down more flexibly, however the razor can move 12 and fire at 4+, and has much better access to rerolls. It's very comparable, though I'd give advantage to razorback.

However, You did your math wrong somewhere. Both are BS3+

Against T7
2+ Both are .88
3+ AC 1.33, Dev 1.77
4+ AC 1.7, Dev 2.6
5+ AC 2.22, Dev 3.55
6+ AC 2.66, Dev 4.44

Dakkafex should be 6 pts more than the razorback. 16 more with the -1 to hit, which you should always take, as it effectively makes the Carnifex 9-16W depending on BS of firing units.


Wait... wut? I think you mean the razorback has a 18" or that dakafex has a 18" range.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

The Nazis were right. It's better to be a Nazi than a fan.

Thank you for getting me on the side of Milo and the Nazis.

 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Are Carnifex BS 3+ now?

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in no
Powerful Ushbati





Bergen

So the thornback:

'-dont have much info on the thornback other than at the end of combat roll d6 for each enemy unit in combat with it. on 6 deal 1 mortal wound
-Thornbacks are base 70.
Starts with 2 devourers with brainleech worm
And a pair of monstrous scything talons
And a chitin biomorph'

What is Chitin biomorph? What makes the Thornback different then the carnifex?

 Xenomancers wrote:
Are Carnifex BS 3+ now?


From my understanding they get +1 to hit on the turn they charge. So you hit on 3+.

Edit: Lol, thought you meant WS. BS4+ I belive. But go Lieviathan for that nice re-roll, or Kronos and stand stil.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/10/30 19:47:46


I am a dyslectic, so bear with me.

Dyslectics in a text based environment? Dakka is aware of you and sympathises with any troubles you have: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/505863.page

Kronos biovore box fresh sporemines. Denying psykick powers since 2017.

 
   
Made in mx
Rampaging Carnifex



Mexico

The +1 to BS biomorph for carnifexes is back, so most dakkafexes will be BS 3+.
   
Made in us
Tough Tyrant Guard






 Lance845 wrote:

Wait... wut? I think you mean the razorback has a 18" or that dakafex has a 18" range.


I obviously meant 18" range on dakkafex. Typo. Fixed.
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

Tyran wrote:
The +1 to BS biomorph for carnifexes is back, so most dakkafexes will be BS 3+.


Oh I did not see that, i did my math with a 4+ to hit.

So, then the DakkaFex is clearly superior to the razorback. Cool to see them included.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut



Portland,OR

 Sim-Life wrote:
Super speedy but fragile Gorgon Genestealers or slightly slower super armored 3+ Jormungandr genestealers? Opinions?
I like speedy, but local meta might be a 'thing" (ie: AM pewpews vs 3+ saves? mighty tempting)
   
Made in us
Tough Tyrant Guard






 Marmatag wrote:
Tyran wrote:
The +1 to BS biomorph for carnifexes is back, so most dakkafexes will be BS 3+.


Oh I did not see that, i did my math with a 4+ to hit.

So, then the DakkaFex is clearly superior to the razorback. Cool to see them included.


Right, for some reason I didn't even consider you did the math with 4+. That should have been obvious. My bad.

With the cost of the BS upgrade being so low, there's almost no reason not to take it on dakkafex. It's roughly a 10% cost increase for far more than a 10% damage increase.

Same for the spore cysts. They give more than 10% durability (According to earlier thread math, which I haven't checked, worst case scenario they add ~20% durability in the worst case scenario) for about 10% cost increase.

With the IB being invalidated within 24" as well, Dakkafex can operate outside of your Malanthrope bubble safely, making deployment much more flexible.

4-6 of these will probably be the base of any competitive Tyranid list.

As for Hive Fleet... Kronos will be useful likely turn 2 onward, while Jormungandr will reduce their incoming damage from AP-3 shots by 20%. Leviathan is less useful because of the high output fire, and charging is likely the last thing you'll want to do with these (Although with the mortal wound, they can pile in to help finish something off, for sure).

We may start seeing lists with 90+ termagants screening 4-6 dakkafex, a mess of hive guard and some exocrines.
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Traceoftoxin wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
Tyran wrote:
The +1 to BS biomorph for carnifexes is back, so most dakkafexes will be BS 3+.


Oh I did not see that, i did my math with a 4+ to hit.

So, then the DakkaFex is clearly superior to the razorback. Cool to see them included.


Right, for some reason I didn't even consider you did the math with 4+. That should have been obvious. My bad.

With the cost of the BS upgrade being so low, there's almost no reason not to take it on dakkafex. It's roughly a 10% cost increase for far more than a 10% damage increase.

Same for the spore cysts. They give more than 10% durability (According to earlier thread math, which I haven't checked, worst case scenario they add ~20% durability in the worst case scenario) for about 10% cost increase.

With the IB being invalidated within 24" as well, Dakkafex can operate outside of your Malanthrope bubble safely, making deployment much more flexible.

4-6 of these will probably be the base of any competitive Tyranid list.

As for Hive Fleet... Kronos will be useful likely turn 2 onward, while Jormungandr will reduce their incoming damage from AP-3 shots by 20%. Leviathan is less useful because of the high output fire, and charging is likely the last thing you'll want to do with these (Although with the mortal wound, they can pile in to help finish something off, for sure).

We may start seeing lists with 90+ termagants screening 4-6 dakkafex, a mess of hive guard and some exocrines.


Those will be the base of shooty nids list, but i can easily see this dex being the first one succesfully deploying competitive full assault lists.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






The Dakka fex seems like a real winner. Its clearly OP - but I'm not going to be complaining too much even though I have to rip my Death-spitters off my carnies.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

Still feel like 30 termagaunts popping out of the ground and firing 180 shots with the stratagem being pretty deadly. Especially if you get some rerolls involved.

Hormagaunts just don't seem worth it when you can take genestealers anyway.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/30 20:25:37


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el





Reedsburg, WI

 Xenomancers wrote:
The Dakka fex seems like a real winner. Its clearly OP - but I'm not going to be complaining too much even though I have to rip my Death-spitters off my carnies.


Magnetize...always magnetize TMC

Wyomingfox's Space Wolves Paint Blog A journey across decades.
Splinter Fleet Stygian Paint Blogg Home of the Albino Bugs. 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

 Xenomancers wrote:
The Dakka fex seems like a real winner. Its clearly OP - but I'm not going to be complaining too much even though I have to rip my Death-spitters off my carnies.


at face value it's efficient but i wouldn't slam the OP button yet, 8 wounds on a t7 model is not hard to pop. if it was dreadnoughts would be everywhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The thing is carnifexes still have a solid tail attack even with the dakka dakka. 3 hit rolls per tail attack for what 12 attacks? 8th edition is volume of dice more than anything, except for long range shooting, although with more terrain (in ITC events) this is becoming less and less prevalent.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/10/30 20:31:30


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Marmatag wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
The Dakka fex seems like a real winner. Its clearly OP - but I'm not going to be complaining too much even though I have to rip my Death-spitters off my carnies.


at face value it's efficient but i wouldn't slam the OP button yet, 8 wounds on a t7 model is not hard to pop. if it was dreadnoughts would be everywhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The thing is carnifexes still have a solid tail attack even with the dakka dakka. 3 hit rolls per tail attack for what 12 attacks? 8th edition is volume of dice more than anything, except for long range shooting, although with more terrain (in ITC events) this is becoming less and less prevalent.


The tail no longer works like that, now it makes d3 attacks on it's own and that's it.
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

Spoletta wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
The Dakka fex seems like a real winner. Its clearly OP - but I'm not going to be complaining too much even though I have to rip my Death-spitters off my carnies.


at face value it's efficient but i wouldn't slam the OP button yet, 8 wounds on a t7 model is not hard to pop. if it was dreadnoughts would be everywhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The thing is carnifexes still have a solid tail attack even with the dakka dakka. 3 hit rolls per tail attack for what 12 attacks? 8th edition is volume of dice more than anything, except for long range shooting, although with more terrain (in ITC events) this is becoming less and less prevalent.


The tail no longer works like that, now it makes d3 attacks on it's own and that's it.


Oh, my bad. So, not as threatening in melee, but still has all that dakka.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Marmatag wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
The Dakka fex seems like a real winner. Its clearly OP - but I'm not going to be complaining too much even though I have to rip my Death-spitters off my carnies.


at face value it's efficient but i wouldn't slam the OP button yet, 8 wounds on a t7 model is not hard to pop. if it was dreadnoughts would be everywhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The thing is carnifexes still have a solid tail attack even with the dakka dakka. 3 hit rolls per tail attack for what 12 attacks? 8th edition is volume of dice more than anything, except for long range shooting, although with more terrain (in ITC events) this is becoming less and less prevalent.
Dude this thing gets -1 to hit and puts out 24 str6 shots for like 116 points at bs 3 with assault weapons Most likely with the always in cover trait...essentially has a 2+ save too. It's more than durable enough for the firepower it puts out. Again I am not complaining - I will abuse this it's just sad that we already have such an outlier of power. Just the change to BS 3+ is all we needed.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

 Xenomancers wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
The Dakka fex seems like a real winner. Its clearly OP - but I'm not going to be complaining too much even though I have to rip my Death-spitters off my carnies.


at face value it's efficient but i wouldn't slam the OP button yet, 8 wounds on a t7 model is not hard to pop. if it was dreadnoughts would be everywhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The thing is carnifexes still have a solid tail attack even with the dakka dakka. 3 hit rolls per tail attack for what 12 attacks? 8th edition is volume of dice more than anything, except for long range shooting, although with more terrain (in ITC events) this is becoming less and less prevalent.
Dude this thing gets -1 to hit and puts out 24 str6 shots for like 116 points at bs 3 with assault weapons Most likely with the always in cover trait...essentially has a 2+ save too. It's more than durable enough for the firepower it puts out. Again I am not complaining - I will abuse this it's just sad that we already have such an outlier of power. Just the change to BS 3+ is all we needed.


So, I was wrong about the tail, it's just a flat D3 not D3 per attack.

The always cover trait will probably never apply to this guy...And 18" range means you're in range of the entire opposing army's big shooting. 8 wounds means it dies *fast* once it can deal damage.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Tough Tyrant Guard






 Marmatag wrote:
Still feel like 30 termagaunts popping out of the ground and firing 180 shots with the stratagem being pretty deadly. Especially if you get some rerolls involved.

Hormagaunts just don't seem worth it when you can take genestealers anyway.


Because hormagaunts have 6" pile in and consolidate. With how flexible the charge rules are, you can very easily tie up an entire gunline in one charge using them.

They aren't going to kill anything, but that's not what you use them for.

For 450 pts you can put 90 bodies on the field that will never, ever suffer morale. Most armies will have a lot of trouble removing this many bodies. Armies that fail to remove this many bodies will spend most of the rest of the game falling back or wasting time smashing 5 pt bugs. For armies that are only mildly annoyed by falling back, 90 bodies will still push them off of objectives and box them in.

That leaves you 1000-1500 pts to fit as much damage dealing into your list as possible. With 45/70 (Conflicting rumors) neurothrope HQs, we have access to cheap or relatively cheap smite spam that is also the synapse we need for our forces.

Dakkafexes/devgaunts put out enough firepower to clear all other screens in the game. Exocrines/Hive Guard and possibly Tyrannofex may have some actually cost efficient anti-tank shooting.

Hive fleet Kronos has a pretty legitimate 1CP strat to help shut down a critical cast (and a warlord trait that can severely punish other smite spam armies). Also access to rerolls for some of our better cost-efficient support units.

Jormungandr gives a decent durability buff to everything in the army. A 6+ to a 5+ (Gants vs AP0, MCs vs AP-3) doesn't sound like much, but you pass 2x as many saves and take 20% less damage, on average. Though it is rather unflexible with the limitations.

Behemoth will get those gants in more reliably, and the stratagem is a decent way to throw a few MW out against something like Magnus where you are likely to be able to get 6-12 charging models within 12".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Marmatag wrote:

The always cover trait will probably never apply to this guy...And 18" range means you're in range of the entire opposing army's big shooting. 8 wounds means it dies *fast* once it can deal damage.


Disagree entirely. Have used dakkafexes extensively for a very long time, in some very competitive metas/tournaments. Tyranid lists are meant to be built where no single unit is more dangerous than another. If they fire on one thing they're failing to kill another, that offers an equal, if different threat. Dakkafex are very cheap for their damage output and survivability. They're more durable than razorbacks against the vast majority of targets, with no degradation, and razorbacks/Guilleman are basically carrying codex SM at this point in the meta.

Unlike SM, we are looking to be able to easily spam screens and smite, which are the current strongest things in the meta.

If Neurothropes are 45 pts, expect to see a Tyranid list win/place highly at the next major GT using a list with 120-150 gants, 5-10 neurothropes and the rest in dakkafexes. Probably using Kronos fleet.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/30 20:57:16


 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut




Behemoth is my favorite.
Charging with hormagaunts on a wide line and delivering 4-5 MW? Sign me in.
   
Made in us
Tough Tyrant Guard






Spoletta wrote:
Behemoth is my favorite.
Charging with hormagaunts on a wide line and delivering 4-5 MW? Sign me in.


Only roll for a model that gets within 1" on its charge, and only 1 unit. I think it's a good strat, but I don't think you're likely to ever pull more than 2-3 MW out of it. Outside some lucky rolls, of course.
   
Made in us
Dominating Dominatrix






Neurothropes have been corrected to be 70 points. According to rumors. Still unconfirmed.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

The Nazis were right. It's better to be a Nazi than a fan.

Thank you for getting me on the side of Milo and the Nazis.

 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut




That's why i'm planning on multicharging on a wide line. Doesn't matter though, those little bastards are not there to inflict wounds.

It's the hype on the dakkafexes which i don't undestand completely. This is not 7th where spamming high volume of fire mid strenght shots was the verb. Here 24 bs3+ S6 shots inflict less than 2 wounds on a razorback. For a short range weapon it doesn't sound so good. Sure, it does a number on hordes, but don't expect it to work on vehicles. You will need exocrines, hive guards and Tfexes for that.

They fit really well in combined nids lists though, since they combine being a menace and being a bad target (same thoughness of a Leman Russ and similar cost per wound, but they also sport a -1 to hit and no degradation. Requires a focus fire from 8 stationary assbacks to go down).
   
 
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