Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Yeah.

In my Inquisition army, I have a Valkyrie with one 5-man squad with flamers, one 6-man squad with flamers, and one Inquisitor with an Incinerator.

If you think flamers are bad, wait until this Grav-Chute Insertions right in front of your favorite infantry unit and then walks within range...

ADDENDUM:
I'm Ordo Hereticus, so for extra BBQ, just add Chaos; I get to re-roll wounds.

I have two big issues with flamers.

1st is the cost. Far to expensive for what you get.

2nd is actually a gripe for many other weapons. 1d6 shots is *WAY* too random. I'd rather have flamers be 1d3+3, or 1d3+2. The unreliability of so many weapons this edition is depressing. Flamers only start to become good if you can get 3+ into a unit. A squad that can only take one? Just don't bother. Take a plasma gun instead.

 Fafnir wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Just make them cost 5points again, problem solved.

A storm bolter is considerably better and costs 2 points. A bolter is better and costs 0 points.

A bolter is not better. A bolter on overwatch is 0.167. A flamer is 1.75. An order of magnitude stronger.
A rapid fire bolter is otherwise half as good.

If you make flamers as cheap or cheaper than stormbolters and find out that you've just made assault really difficult. People need to stop and consider the implications of super cheap flamers on super cheap models.

People don't use flamers, because there are so few strong assault armies floating around. Once tyranids and blood angels get some traction it will change.

Make flamers 9". Deepstrike is "more than 9", which means flamers wouldn't screw over that part and would cut down on chargers avoiding them. Drop them by a point - MAYBE two. Any give them some 10+ model mechanic.

Half these suggestions are why most of you should not balance this game.

It doesn't matter how many wounds a flamer does if your opponent never lets you shoot it. It's very easy to walk around a flamer, or position yourself for charges that avoid the special weapon user in the squad. A flamer is lucky if it gets to fire once per game.

On a flamer toting imperial guardsmen, perhaps.

Flamers on units like Bloat Drones and Hellhounds, suddenly they are scary and I guarantee, if they aren't shooting every turn, then they are doing something wrong.

 NurglesR0T wrote:


Flamers on units like Bloat Drones and Hellhounds, suddenly they are scary and I guarantee, if they aren't shooting every turn, then they are doing something wrong.

Or they're doing something terribly right and have simply exhausted their supply of targets

M.

I'm really liking the idea of Assault 6 / 0 / 1 Always hits on 3+. That way it still ignores hit modifiers giving the "you can't hide from the fire" motif, keeps the roast 1 model or graze 6 models logic, and deals a good # of wounds even in overwatch. Also bring the point cost down to 4. It won't be incredibly powerful but could be worth 2 more than storm bolter for some niche operations.

I typically use them to demolish hordes by deepstriking with Tau homing beacon. 9d6 flamer shots can really mess up a unit of berserkers. Or chaos bikers to advance shoot and assault first turn but that's hardly worth it considering the cost and loss of combi-bolter shots.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah.

In my Inquisition army, I have a Valkyrie with one 5-man squad with flamers, one 6-man squad with flamers, and one Inquisitor with an Incinerator.

If you think flamers are bad, wait until this Grav-Chute Insertions right in front of your favorite infantry unit and then walks within range...

ADDENDUM:
I'm Ordo Hereticus, so for extra BBQ, just add Chaos; I get to re-roll wounds.

With the situation you've described, you're spending, at minimum, 422 points for a pump-and-dump of 38.5 S4/AP-/D1 hits and 3.5 S6/AP-/D1 hits (and then one multilaser and hellstrike missile, which doesn't amount to a whole lot on its own either).

That's beyond awful. Like... criminally bad.

For reference, 228 points of Dominions with storm bolters at 24" (so no rapid fire) puts out as many S4/AP-/D1 shots (amounting to 25 hits with no buffs). You are paying an obscene amount of points for something that's absolutely terrible. It's about as far down the rabbit hole of the sunken cost fallacy that you can get.

 NurglesR0T wrote:


On a flamer toting imperial guardsmen, perhaps.

Flamers on units like Bloat Drones and Hellhounds, suddenly they are scary and I guarantee, if they aren't shooting every turn, then they are doing something wrong.

Yes, but those are entirely different weapons from the standard flamer (especially in the hands of infantry), or the archetypes that come close to it. But Hellhounds have 12" flamers that hit like trucks on a fast moving frame and Blight Drones are not too far off from that.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Flamers are imo aren't worth points, however as a limited free weapon swap they would be able to start coming into their own.

If a unit were able to swap 1 model to a flamer for free I could see them start gaining traction.

But if you wanted to make them actually useful, they need to scale with the size of the squad you are shooting at, or perhaps even scale with the armor save somehow.

Flamers aren't what makes them useless. Your standard S4 0AP flamer, yeah not much more effective than 2 marines firing bolters.

What is terrifying is things like Plague Spitters, Heavy Flamers, Inferno Cannons etc. They are brilliant weapons against single models such as vehicles/monsters/characters/flyers and if you think you can just ignore the overwatch they can dish out you will be in for a surprise - especially when there is a couple of them in the unit.
be few and far between their occurrence.

A flamer should not be more effective on a single target than a group. So your statement means yes it does need a rework.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Zustiur wrote:
Serious question,
Would bringing back templates resolve this issue?

No. The Flamer template was 8" long, so still too short for deepstrike. Overwatching with a template would be - oh wait, d6 auto hits.

All it would change is if you somehow got a unit within 8" of an enemy unit, and placed the flamer template over them, you could get I would say between 1 and 6 models underneath it (depending on coherency, etc)...

... so it's essentially the same.

EXCEPT:

You've just lengthened your opponent's entire movement phase, as now he has to make sure all of his models are exactly 2" apart, and lengthened your own shooting phase over whether or not you clip a friendly model's base with the template or not, and also lengthened the amount of time it takes to resolve the weapon, as now players must bend over the table and argue whether or not a sliver of a given base is touched or not (sometimes with shaking hands).

1) Players will do the same for ensuring maximal bubblewrap anyway, or they will ignore it altogether and run 40k as Napoleonic bases.
2) It's almost like the removal of bunched-up Deepstrike, Tank Shock, exploding transports, etc. have collectively killed transports. Ditto the removal of Fire Points, or Transports only granting +3" versus +6".

Realistically, the main issue Flamers and AOEs had in 6th and 7th was a gradual size creep, from the increased prevalence of Monstrous Creatures and Bikes, to Marine bases going from 28mm to 32mm. Perhaps the most extreme example of this IMO was the Barkbarkstar, which was a blob of 8-point Fenrisian Wolves on Terminator-sized 40mm bases. Ditto a creep in "weight of fire" blasts without designing the game to speed up their usage (Wyverns anyone?).

Honestly, had the game been properly rescaled for its increasing size (ex: Making all movement and ranges 4" instead of 8"), and maybe Bolt Action-style scattering used (so you don't need a protractor), then a lot of issues would have been solved there.

 Fafnir wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah.

In my Inquisition army, I have a Valkyrie with one 5-man squad with flamers, one 6-man squad with flamers, and one Inquisitor with an Incinerator.

If you think flamers are bad, wait until this Grav-Chute Insertions right in front of your favorite infantry unit and then walks within range...

ADDENDUM:
I'm Ordo Hereticus, so for extra BBQ, just add Chaos; I get to re-roll wounds.

With the situation you've described, you're spending, at minimum, 422 points for a pump-and-dump of 38.5 S4/AP-/D1 hits and 3.5 S6/AP-/D1 hits (and then one multilaser and hellstrike missile, which doesn't amount to a whole lot on its own either).

That's beyond awful. Like... criminally bad.

For reference, 228 points of Dominions with storm bolters at 24" (so no rapid fire) puts out as many S4/AP-/D1 shots (amounting to 25 hits with no buffs). You are paying an obscene amount of points for something that's absolutely terrible. It's about as far down the rabbit hole of the sunken cost fallacy that you can get.

 NurglesR0T wrote:


On a flamer toting imperial guardsmen, perhaps.

Flamers on units like Bloat Drones and Hellhounds, suddenly they are scary and I guarantee, if they aren't shooting every turn, then they are doing something wrong.

Yes, but those are entirely different weapons from the standard flamer (especially in the hands of infantry), or the archetypes that come close to it. But Hellhounds have 12" flamers that hit like trucks on a fast moving frame and Blight Drones are not too far off from that.

Yes but it is FUN. :p

3 D3 hits. No cover. D3 hits on overwatch. Call it a day

According to the leaked points values in the rumors thread, there will NOT be any changes to the price for flamers.

M.

 Infantryman wrote:
According to the leaked points values in the rumors thread, there will NOT be any changes to the price for flamers.

M.

Except handflamers

 Quickjager wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Flamers are imo aren't worth points, however as a limited free weapon swap they would be able to start coming into their own.

If a unit were able to swap 1 model to a flamer for free I could see them start gaining traction.

But if you wanted to make them actually useful, they need to scale with the size of the squad you are shooting at, or perhaps even scale with the armor save somehow.

Flamers aren't what makes them useless. Your standard S4 0AP flamer, yeah not much more effective than 2 marines firing bolters.

What is terrifying is things like Plague Spitters, Heavy Flamers, Inferno Cannons etc. They are brilliant weapons against single models such as vehicles/monsters/characters/flyers and if you think you can just ignore the overwatch they can dish out you will be in for a surprise - especially when there is a couple of them in the unit.
be few and far between their occurrence.

A flamer should not be more effective on a single target than a group. So your statement means yes it does need a rework.

Absolutely - I had a post earlier in this thread to that effect

 NurglesR0T wrote:
This is the exact same argument I make when locals complain about the removal of templates. The game is much better now that they are gone. Only negative drawback from the change is them being better against single models rather than units that the weapon type is actually designed for. Maybe just adding in a slight rule that if the target is a single model then it only does half hits rounding up?

ERJAK wrote:

 Infantryman wrote:
According to the leaked points values in the rumors thread, there will NOT be any changes to the price for flamers.

M.

Except handflamers

:|

Yeah I did not disambiguate well enough.

M.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Flamers are imo aren't worth points, however as a limited free weapon swap they would be able to start coming into their own.

If a unit were able to swap 1 model to a flamer for free I could see them start gaining traction.

But if you wanted to make them actually useful, they need to scale with the size of the squad you are shooting at, or perhaps even scale with the armor save somehow.

Flamers aren't what makes them useless. Your standard S4 0AP flamer, yeah not much more effective than 2 marines firing bolters.

What is terrifying is things like Plague Spitters, Heavy Flamers, Inferno Cannons etc. They are brilliant weapons against single models such as vehicles/monsters/characters/flyers and if you think you can just ignore the overwatch they can dish out you will be in for a surprise - especially when there is a couple of them in the unit.
be few and far between their occurrence.

A flamer should not be more effective on a single target than a group. So your statement means yes it does need a rework.

Absolutely - I had a post earlier in this thread to that effect

 NurglesR0T wrote:
This is the exact same argument I make when locals complain about the removal of templates. The game is much better now that they are gone. Only negative drawback from the change is them being better against single models rather than units that the weapon type is actually designed for. Maybe just adding in a slight rule that if the target is a single model then it only does half hits rounding up?

Ahh sorry bout that.

Flamers generally at fine. But I'd make 2 tweaks for sanity:

1) You must roll to hit Vs flyers
2) You can always use flamers on Overwatch, regardless of how far away the charging unit is

Stux wrote:
Flamers generally at fine. But I'd make 2 tweaks for sanity:

1) You must roll to hit Vs flyers
2) You can always use flamers on Overwatch, regardless of how far away the charging unit is

I like this. I'd change 2) too all flamers get 10" range instead though, for basicly the same effect and call it a day. Any charge made from 11"+ only has a 1/6 chance to succeed (without the command point re-roll).

Giving it 10" would give the flamer more interactions with deep strike, allowing you to fire it from deep strike and allowing deep striking charging units to get overwatched. Deepstriking units full of flamers might sound pretty powerfull, but look below where I do the math of 4plasma vs 4flamers. There's also ways to counterplay around deep strike. You can deny your valuable units by putting stuff that don't matter as much in the way of flamers, and with only one damadge they aren't reliable at killing multi wound units, tanks or monsters. You will always know how many flamers are deep striking so you can make informed decisions. I feel if this change is made, plus the roll to hit against flyers, the flamer would be much more viable and logical pick. Without being powerfull enough to break the game. A deep striking marine unit with 4 flamers do 14 hits, 7 wounds and 2.3 kills on a marine squad. Compare that to four plasmas on standard mode that do 6.6 hits, 4.4 wounds and 2.2 kills. The plasma is relatively easy to buff with overcharge and re-rolls to hit making it more powerfull, this is the weakest possible plasma shot.
DS 4x marine flamers vs marines: 2.3 kills
DS 4x marine plasma on standard vs marines: 2.2 kills
-Not broken or overpowered-

Edit:
For you who will mention flamers vs hordes...
DS 4x marine flamers vs ork boys: 5.835 kills (≈6kills)
DS 4x marine plasma on standard vs ork boys: 4.4 kills (≈4kills)
DS 4x marine plasma on supercharge with re-roll 1 vs orks boys: 5.84 kills (≈6 kills, 12dmg)
-Not broken or overpowered-

Edit 2:
I can write the entire formula if requested. Also I'm well aware that the flamers would get to Shoot again if the enemy charges them but as stated above there's ways to play around this. Move 6" away from the marines, Shoot them or charge with cheap tank (like a rhino) to never allow them to Shoot again. Chances are 4dmg per turn won't be enough to bring a transport down through 2 game turns, at which point it will hardly matter. If the deepstriking happens turn 1 the squad would be free to what it wants on turn 4 if a rhino kept charging it.

Stux wrote:
Flamers generally at fine. But I'd make 2 tweaks for sanity:

1) You must roll to hit Vs flyers
2) You can always use flamers on Overwatch, regardless of how far away the charging unit is

Agreed. The roll to hit vs flyers is more of a game logic thing, rather than a balance issue. Flamers are not doing damage to flyers. I understand why they left it out for simplicity purposes.

Yeah, it seems weird my supersonic spacejet can be touched by one at all, ever.

M.

In practice though I can't recall it ever actually happening in game.

CassianSol wrote:

Flamers are not doing damage to flyers.

Where does it say that flyers are immune to flamers ? I cant find it in the rules.

With Conscripts being nerfed to oblivion, infantry squads with only flamers are going to be my "horde guard" option for the time being. Swarm them towards the enemy with "Move, move, move", some of them are bound to survive long enough for flamer range.

I also really like the idea of a "1 Heavy Flamer + 3 Flamers + 5 Shotguns + Chimera with double Flamers" Veteran BBQ wagon. Haven't tested it in practice yet though. Make them Catachan and give them a Platoon Commander for the Catachan order, and they sound like they could dish out a lot of hurt at light and medium infantry.

 Esmer wrote:
With Conscripts being nerfed to oblivion, infantry squads with only flamers are going to be my "horde guard" option for the time being. Swarm them towards the enemy with "Move, move, move", some of them are bound to survive long enough for flamer range.

I also really like the idea of a "1 Heavy Flamer + 3 Flamers + 5 Shotguns + Chimera with double Flamers" Veteran BBQ wagon. Haven't tested it in practice yet though. Make them Catachan and give them a Platoon Commander for the Catachan order, and they sound like they could dish out a lot of hurt at light and medium infantry.

Do we even have a heavy flamer model yet?

Interesting squad comp, though - I was looking at adding vets to my 1.5k list to help bring it to 2k, and had a similar idea, though with a Griphonne pattern twin-linked heavy bolter setup instead.

(Side note: I can't find what Twin Linked stuff DOES anymore...where is that in the BRB?)

M.

 Infantryman wrote:

 Esmer wrote:
With Conscripts being nerfed to oblivion, infantry squads with only flamers are going to be my "horde guard" option for the time being. Swarm them towards the enemy with "Move, move, move", some of them are bound to survive long enough for flamer range.

I also really like the idea of a "1 Heavy Flamer + 3 Flamers + 5 Shotguns + Chimera with double Flamers" Veteran BBQ wagon. Haven't tested it in practice yet though. Make them Catachan and give them a Platoon Commander for the Catachan order, and they sound like they could dish out a lot of hurt at light and medium infantry.

Do we even have a heavy flamer model yet?

Interesting squad comp, though - I was looking at adding vets to my 1.5k list to help bring it to 2k, and had a similar idea, though with a Griphonne pattern twin-linked heavy bolter setup instead.

(Side note: I can't find what Twin Linked stuff DOES anymore...where is that in the BRB?)

M.

Command squad boxes do, and there have been heavy flamer metal models in the past. Anytime you see a twin barreled flamer on a guardsman with a tank it's a heavy flamer.

With the CA points reduction, hand flamers on Seraphim are starting to look pretty good. Down to 6 points per pair doing d3 hits each. Range and strength are worse, but having them on jump troops, firing after fall back, and using them in melee are all nice perks at the price. I'm gli ng to at least try them at their new price point. Sisters Rhinos with 4 heavy flamers are fun too, and may get some use with all these new -1 to hit armies.

p5freak wrote:

CassianSol wrote:

Flamers are not doing damage to flyers.

Where does it say that flyers are immune to flamers ? I cant find it in the rules.

It is clear from context that I don't mean that. Flamers are no threat to vehicles (with rare exception) in practice, so the oddity that flamers can hit flyers is nota real problem.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Infantryman wrote:

 Esmer wrote:
With Conscripts being nerfed to oblivion, infantry squads with only flamers are going to be my "horde guard" option for the time being. Swarm them towards the enemy with "Move, move, move", some of them are bound to survive long enough for flamer range.

I also really like the idea of a "1 Heavy Flamer + 3 Flamers + 5 Shotguns + Chimera with double Flamers" Veteran BBQ wagon. Haven't tested it in practice yet though. Make them Catachan and give them a Platoon Commander for the Catachan order, and they sound like they could dish out a lot of hurt at light and medium infantry.

Do we even have a heavy flamer model yet?

Interesting squad comp, though - I was looking at adding vets to my 1.5k list to help bring it to 2k, and had a similar idea, though with a Griphonne pattern twin-linked heavy bolter setup instead.

(Side note: I can't find what Twin Linked stuff DOES anymore...where is that in the BRB?)

M.

Command squad boxes do, and there have been heavy flamer metal models in the past. Anytime you see a twin barreled flamer on a guardsman with a tank it's a heavy flamer.

I need to pick me up one of those boxes when I next get down to the FLGS...

M.

Ugh. I've had different flamer experiences. Shoot the Starweaver and it becomes impossible for my troupes to charge a unit with flamers. Such a deterrent.

 Nerak wrote:


Edit:
For you who will mention flamers vs hordes...
DS 4x marine flamers vs ork boys: 5.835 kills (≈6kills)
DS 4x marine plasma on standard vs ork boys: 4.4 kills (≈4kills)
DS 4x marine plasma on supercharge with re-roll 1 vs orks boys: 5.84 kills (≈6 kills, 12dmg)
-Not broken or overpowered-

I think this is the simplest improvement. Possibly the best for practical reasons.
It even makes the wapon more palatable on platforms like terminators.
How much would it change Sternguard, Burnas, Sisters, and Scion command squads?
One could argue that is still not enough, but at least the flamer would keep the charge-deterrent aspect of the weapon, and have a larger threat on the field.
Fo sure, this basic "d6" for the area effects was a huge failure, but I guess the designers would be more willing to change the range than to alter the d6 roll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mayk0l wrote:
Ugh. I've had different flamer experiences. Shoot the Starweaver and it becomes impossible for my troupes to charge a unit with flamers. Such a deterrent.

Which unit you were going to charge?

Okay there is a lot to sift through so im just going to make this simple and put the suggestion then my response.

10" range/ Range increase

You dont want people being able to DS and hit you with flamers. This would completely cut out to hit rolls which means all they need to do is fugure out how to get rerolls with to wound rolls and they could do massive amounts of damage if you thought hordes were strong before they would be in a massivly more powerful position if you did that.

Scaling Damage

This is a good idea but 1d6 per 10 is ridiculous 4 guys killing 18 from a 30 man squad is too powerful. 1d3 per 5 (max 4d3) seems like the most reasonable. I didn't see this suggested.

WTFlyer

Yeah its dumb...I cant hit the guy 12 feet away but I can hit the Jet that Zooms by going 200 MPH at an altitude of 300 feet? Just make it so they cant hit flyers with Hard To Hit.

Price Reduction

NO. As it is Flamers are scary good at killing Elites making them cheaper would only exacerbate the problem.

Overwatch

This is an espically sore subject for me since my army is trash in CC and almost exclusivly relies on flamers to deal with this. To me it seems like there should be some sort of upgrade that you could purchase to enable you to fire up to 12 in. for overwatch. Again this would be mostly for armies that rely on Flamers to stop charges. Flamers are supposed to be a deterrant and they are, but the problem is they are a deterrant to units that would rather shoot you anyways, and the units you really need the overwatch against can simply stand outside the range and get the charge off more then 50 percent of the time. Let me be clear these units can absolutly TRASH my 145 point unit in a single turn at the cost of 84 points for a unit of Zerkers. So I think that some armies should have access to a way to ensure that before you gobble up 150 poits of models with almost half the cost you can at least kill 2 or 3.