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Wow, a lot of Dakka Dakka historical revisionism going on here. Seems like people have short memories.

Seeing as both sides are accusing the other side of ad hominem whilst denying using it themselves, how about we all go read this thread and refresh our memories? I'd say that there are probably people on both sides of the argument who are guilty of ad hominem and personal abuse.

Tried to watch it again on netflix.

Epic performance from bomber gunner lady.



Made it to Finn's first scene in the hospital outfit and gave up.

Mr Morden wrote:What do Critics provide for you? I don;t get it.

I have no use or interest for or in them. Applies to Food and Film. I'll decide what I like or dont like.

A point of view. It might be similar to mine or different but if you find critics you like then their work should expand your horizon a bit instead of just agreeing with you on all points or completely disagreeing with your opinion. Film critics may point out a different approach to some movie that might change my mind upon consideration. A food critic may have some ideas about a recipe or dish that's informed from their perspective and that might provide a starting point to adapt my recipe, or they might just expose me to some things I didn't even know existed. Life can be a bit insular if one has to stew in one's own brain all the time. Critics/criticism can add some additional information and fun serendipity.

Mario wrote:

Mr Morden wrote:What do Critics provide for you? I don;t get it.

I have no use or interest for or in them. Applies to Food and Film. I'll decide what I like or dont like.

A point of view. It might be similar to mine or different but if you find critics you like then their work should expand your horizon a bit instead of just agreeing with you on all points or completely disagreeing with your opinion. Film critics may point out a different approach to some movie that might change my mind upon consideration. A food critic may have some ideas about a recipe or dish that's informed from their perspective and that might provide a starting point to adapt my recipe, or they might just expose me to some things I didn't even know existed. Life can be a bit insular if one has to stew in one's own brain all the time. Critics/criticism can add some additional information and fun serendipity.

Interesting - however with the mortality issue I don.t have time to do all the things I know I enjoy never mind the things I don't.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Boba fett was basically a background filler. He literally could have been removed from the OT and nothing would have changed.

I have to disagree. Without Boba Fett, Solo drifts off unobserved as Vader's fleet jumps to lightspeed, heads off to his old buddy/rival Lando's operation on Bespin, gets the Falcon repaired, and returns uneventfully to the Rebellion. Meanwhile Luke trains longer with Yoda instead of charging off to confront Vader to attempt to save his friends...

Sure, you could put someone else there to do what Boba Fett did. But that was Boba Fett's role in ESB, to outsmart Han even as Han outsmarted the Imperials.

 Vulcan wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Boba fett was basically a background filler. He literally could have been removed from the OT and nothing would have changed.

I have to disagree. Without Boba Fett, Solo drifts off unobserved as Vader's fleet jumps to lightspeed, heads off to his old buddy/rival Lando's operation on Bespin, gets the Falcon repaired, and returns uneventfully to the Rebellion. Meanwhile Luke trains longer with Yoda instead of charging off to confront Vader to attempt to save his friends...

Sure, you could put someone else there to do what Boba Fett did. But that was Boba Fett's role in ESB, to outsmart Han even as Han outsmarted the Imperials.

Except bobba didnt outsmart han. Vader did. Bobba stood behind vader and said han was worth more alive. Vader sprung the trap and caught them. Any other imperial spy or regular civilian who saw a wanted poster could have done the same thing. We never saw bobba do ANYTHING.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Boba fett was basically a background filler. He literally could have been removed from the OT and nothing would have changed.

I have to disagree. Without Boba Fett, Solo drifts off unobserved as Vader's fleet jumps to lightspeed, heads off to his old buddy/rival Lando's operation on Bespin, gets the Falcon repaired, and returns uneventfully to the Rebellion. Meanwhile Luke trains longer with Yoda instead of charging off to confront Vader to attempt to save his friends...

Sure, you could put someone else there to do what Boba Fett did. But that was Boba Fett's role in ESB, to outsmart Han even as Han outsmarted the Imperials.

Except bobba didnt outsmart han. Vader did. Bobba stood behind vader and said han was worth more alive. Vader sprung the trap and caught them. Any other imperial spy or regular civilian who saw a wanted poster could have done the same thing. We never saw bobba do ANYTHING.

We saw him drift Slave One out of an ISD's aft hangar bay with a bunch of garbage so he could tail Han to his destination and let Vader know where Han was going.

Without that, Han gets away and we never get to see him throw down on a Sith Lord so fast he gets three shots off. Without Fett, Han loses one of his best scenes!

 Vulcan wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Boba fett was basically a background filler. He literally could have been removed from the OT and nothing would have changed.

I have to disagree. Without Boba Fett, Solo drifts off unobserved as Vader's fleet jumps to lightspeed, heads off to his old buddy/rival Lando's operation on Bespin, gets the Falcon repaired, and returns uneventfully to the Rebellion. Meanwhile Luke trains longer with Yoda instead of charging off to confront Vader to attempt to save his friends...

Sure, you could put someone else there to do what Boba Fett did. But that was Boba Fett's role in ESB, to outsmart Han even as Han outsmarted the Imperials.

Except bobba didnt outsmart han. Vader did. Bobba stood behind vader and said han was worth more alive. Vader sprung the trap and caught them. Any other imperial spy or regular civilian who saw a wanted poster could have done the same thing. We never saw bobba do ANYTHING.

We saw him drift Slave One out of an ISD's aft hangar bay with a bunch of garbage so he could tail Han to his destination and let Vader know where Han was going.

Without that, Han gets away and we never get to see him throw down on a Sith Lord so fast he gets three shots off. Without Fett, Han loses one of his best scenes!

Pretty sure we got that in the extended cut. I MIGHT be wrong. But if i remember correctly the original theatrical film had no such shot of the slave 1 following han. And in that cut it worked just fine. I wouldnt consider added scenes in the remaster to matter overly much.

I re-watched TLJ tonight and ... I think I am finally at peace with it.

 Manchu wrote:

 Earth127 wrote:
Kylo Ren is weak pathetic, but he is interesting because of that.

Very much agree about Kylo Ren. Well he is not really all that weak, that's a misconception. It's more interesting that that. The most dangerous thing is someone who is powerful but feels weak. That is Kylo Ren. (As he showed Snoke.)

It's a pity that TLJ - par for the course - led up to something interesting happening with his character only to pull the rug out at the last moment.

Only problem with Kylo Ren's character is that he is not really evil and hateable enough to be main villain of the series (unlike Anakin Skywalker who was hateable from all the wrong reasons). This is what Snoke should have been. However, TFA really gave us so little Snoke (I mean, he's the Leader and, uh...) so it was a right thing to expend him the way he was.
However, now the series needs a new really evil villain. It's not Hux because he is incompetent comical idiot. I suppose this is where Knights of Ren come in for the third movie, I predict one of them is shown to be really super evil, possibly challenging Kylo's leadership "because he is too soft, I mean not torturing those orphans before killing them..."

Alternatively, maybe Snoke comes back as a Force Ghost. But that would probably take us too much to Whills and Midichlorians territory.

The scene with Poe taunting Hux was trying too hard to inject Avengers humor into the movie. It was almost uncomfortable to listen to it was so out of place. Original empire would have blown him out of the sky for such dumb antics.

The scene of Poe taunting Hux was basically the same as the scene of Han asking the Imperial Guard how he was doing on the comms in the Death Star prison. It was the same stalling and playing along right up until Poe made a jab at Hux's mom.

Rumor has it episode 9 may reveal Snoke to be Plaguis. Which would mean hes likely not actually dead. Just jumping bodies and living forever.

Also, I don't think Kylo is meant to be a series villian. I don't think 789 are that black and white. It's more about how the Jedi have been feth ups and the Darkside isn't something that needs to be extinguished. Kylo and Rey are both the series heroes.

 Lance845 wrote:
The scene of Poe taunting Hux was basically the same as the scene of Han asking the Imperial Guard how he was doing on the comms in the Death Star prison. It was the same stalling and playing along right up until Poe made a jab at Hux's mom.

Rumor has it episode 9 may reveal Snoke to be Plaguis. Which would mean hes likely not actually dead. Just jumping bodies and living forever.

Also, I don't think Kylo is meant to be a series villian. I don't think 789 are that black and white. It's more about how the Jedi have been feth ups and the Darkside isn't something that needs to be extinguished. Kylo and Rey are both the series heroes.

No idea who Plaguis is - Should I? Guess that means I am not a Rabid Super fan....

I do think that was the idea behind Kylo/Rey relationship but Rian Johnson made such a complete hash of the film that anything interesting and nuanced that could have been created was badly damaged by his piss poor direction.

Any barely competant Director wanting to go dwn a new path would have done something different in the climatic Thrne Room scene and its aftermath other than another just another Dark Lord.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
The scene with Poe taunting Hux was trying too hard to inject Avengers humor into the movie. It was almost uncomfortable to listen to it was so out of place. Original empire would have blown him out of the sky for such dumb antics.

Absolutely! If.... none of their higher leadership was involved. The Empire was a pretty terrifying machine, where incompetent field commanders were the exception, and were dealt with very, very harshly. Veers executed his mission calmly and decisively. Up until ordered by Vader into an asteroid field, the Imperial commanders had a great turkey shoot killing Rebel forces. Every failure the Empire suffered was due to its arrogant overlords- Tarkin would not authorize a starfighter launch because he thought the Death Star was invincible. At Endor, Piett held the fleet back because the Emperor wanted to use his new Death Star to show off.

Hux and Kylo were both chosen by Snoke not for their competence, but for their loyalty and the fact that for all their ambition they're pushovers. They are both hampering effective operations of the First Order forces.
Even the commander of the Dreadnought comments on this. We should have launched fighters 5 minutes ago. Any competent commander would have a fighter screen up at all times when fighting the Resistance.Even Hux is baffled by Kylo's orders to completely stop the attack and blast Skywalker for minutes on end, when they could have invaded the base.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
The scene of Poe taunting Hux was basically the same as the scene of Han asking the Imperial Guard how he was doing on the comms in the Death Star prison. It was the same stalling and playing along right up until Poe made a jab at Hux's mom.

Rumor has it episode 9 may reveal Snoke to be Plaguis. Which would mean hes likely not actually dead. Just jumping bodies and living forever.

Also, I don't think Kylo is meant to be a series villian. I don't think 789 are that black and white. It's more about how the Jedi have been feth ups and the Darkside isn't something that needs to be extinguished. Kylo and Rey are both the series heroes.

No idea who Plaguis is - Should I? Guess that means I am not a Rabid Super fan....

I do think that was the idea behind Kylo/Rey relationship but Rian Johnson made such a complete hash of the film that anything interesting and nuanced that could have been created was badly damaged by his piss poor direction.

Any barely competant Director wanting to go dwn a new path would have done something different in the climatic Thrne Room scene and its aftermath other than another just another Dark Lord.

Plaguis is Palpatines Master. He gives a speech to Anakin when they go watch an opera about a sith lord who discovered how to avoid death and how they could try to figure it out together. What he doesn't say is that Sideous (Palpatine) "killed him" and became the new sith master, taking Maul on as his apprentice.

The idiotic bit is how Palpatine thinks he killed somebody who figured out how to conquer mortality.

Snoke says he was around to see the rise and fall of the empire so he would have been a powerful dark side user who was around before Palpatine took power. Plaguis fits the bill. People argue that Snokes scars are from palpatine trying to kill him. On the other hand Snoke is the wrong species. On the other other hand the books that mention Plaguises species are not canon any more.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
The scene of Poe taunting Hux was basically the same as the scene of Han asking the Imperial Guard how he was doing on the comms in the Death Star prison. It was the same stalling and playing along right up until Poe made a jab at Hux's mom.

Rumor has it episode 9 may reveal Snoke to be Plaguis. Which would mean hes likely not actually dead. Just jumping bodies and living forever.

Also, I don't think Kylo is meant to be a series villian. I don't think 789 are that black and white. It's more about how the Jedi have been feth ups and the Darkside isn't something that needs to be extinguished. Kylo and Rey are both the series heroes.

No idea who Plaguis is - Should I? Guess that means I am not a Rabid Super fan....

I do think that was the idea behind Kylo/Rey relationship but Rian Johnson made such a complete hash of the film that anything interesting and nuanced that could have been created was badly damaged by his piss poor direction.

Any barely competant Director wanting to go dwn a new path would have done something different in the climatic Thrne Room scene and its aftermath other than another just another Dark Lord.

Plaguis is Palpatines Master. He gives a speech to Anakin when they go watch an opera about a sith lord who discovered how to avoid death and how they could try to figure it out together. What he doesn't say is that Sideous (Palpatine) "killed him" and became the new sith master, taking Maul on as his apprentice.

The idiotic bit is how Palpatine thinks he killed somebody who figured out how to conquer mortality.

Snoke says he was around to see the rise and fall of the empire so he would have been a powerful dark side user who was around before Palpatine took power. Plaguis fits the bill. People argue that Snokes scars are from palpatine trying to kill him. On the other hand Snoke is the wrong species. On the other other hand the books that mention Plaguises species are not canon any more.

Ah right thanks - read very few Star Wars books.

Snoke says he was around to see the rise and fall of the empire so he would have been a powerful dark side user who was around before Palpatine took power. Plaguis fits the bill.

Not anymore he doesn't. Rian Johnson saw to that theory. Stop making making excuses for RJ and trying to rationalize away his poor decisions. Its time we called a spade a spade and just accept TLJ at face value.

And I say that as someone who wanted to believe that Snoke was Disney's adaptation of Darth Vitiate / Emperor Valkorian (the one who jumps from host to host as a parasitic force entity).

 Mr Morden wrote:


Ah right thanks - read very few Star Wars books.

Me too. I hear their mostly gak. But I am a lore junkie and I read and retain a lot of information from wikis.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Snoke says he was around to see the rise and fall of the empire so he would have been a powerful dark side user who was around before Palpatine took power. Plaguis fits the bill.

Not anymore he doesn't. Rian Johnson saw to that theory. Stop making making excuses for RJ and trying to rationalize away his poor decisions. Its time we called a spade a spade and just accept TLJ at face value.

1) I PREFER that Snoke is nobody. It's not a rationalization. It's just a rumor that they MAY be confirming that Snoke is/was Plagueis in ep 9. Not that anyone alive would know who that was or give a gak. So I have no idea how they would confirm it without it being really awkward.

2) If Snoke is Plagueis getting cut in half means nothing. He could probably just transfer his mind into another body someplace like the Old Republic Sith Emperor used to do.

3) Also we have seen people get cut in half and survive it. I have no idea where Darth Mauls poop goes but he's still kickin it even though he's missing the bottom 1/4 of his trunk.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Snoke says he was around to see the rise and fall of the empire so he would have been a powerful dark side user who was around before Palpatine took power. Plaguis fits the bill.

Not anymore he doesn't. Rian Johnson saw to that theory. Stop making making excuses for RJ and trying to rationalize away his poor decisions. Its time we called a spade a spade and just accept TLJ at face value.

Snoke was not Plagueis, he was not even a Sith. This was made clear BEFORE TLJ rolled out.
Even in TFA, Snoke is not treated like a mystery villain. Heroes seem to know him and what he does.

I think to "fix" TLJ, you'd need to start from a position that wasn't 'subvert everything'.

You can have your drawn out chase scene but have them go through rational things like "but what about spies". Nobody goes to Casino land, Finn get's suspected of being the mole after Rose finds him at the escape pods, this leads you into Poe's mutiny "Finn is my brother from another mother, he's not the traitor and also he can tell you about the tracking device" que the realisation that they're being tracked through Leia's wrist watch "but how will Rey find her way back????".

The I guess Finn attempts to take wrist watch in a shuttle while the others prepare to make a hyperspace jump, but disaster!!! due to the bridge having exploded there's an issue with the hypedrive because reasons (it's space opera I don't have to explain anything) they settle for making their way to a nearby planet, alas somebody has to distract the First Morons, Finn can volunteer but Rose who's essentially been his jailer has bonded with due to shared First Moron backstory tragedy (I was a indoctrinated child soldier/janitor, my sister died on that bomber, my parents best friends dog was kicked by Cpt Phasma etc) persuades him not to, then Holdo steps up to attone for judging Poe and Finn too harshly.

Then it continues as it did except Finns skimmer gets clipped by blaster fire, Poe and Rose do teamwork things that are very impessive and then you get a kiss that doesn't seem unearned because there was actual emotional connection (heck if you're feeling super ballsy the kiss is Finn/Poe) ending basically goes down the same.

Rey get's to do basically the same but Luke doesn't do comedy recluse and instead is a bitter recluse after everything he tried to do differently ended up with the same results. I.e doesn't throw the lightsaber away, I guess is disgusted by it, hands it back and tells her to leave?

Snoke is more involved in tempting Kylo away, get's his moment of being an actual villain before Kylo stabs him because he's finally realised he's sick of being used.

Obviously you set it a few months after TFA, planets surrender FO is scary yo etc etc.

Ideally you end up in a similar place emotionally to Empire in that wow the big bad is capable, but our hero's are in a position to do something, opposed to wow the big bad is capable and our hero's sacrificed practically everything in order to escape because the were subverted at every turn, how is this movie about hope again?

I guess Phasma and Finn should fight but have no idea where to place it.

 Manchu wrote:
It's true that there is little to no FUN in TLJ. This is one of the factors that makes it a bad fit for the Star Wars series. In an adventure movie, fun usually comes from seeing the protagonists succeed in tricky situations. Since TLJ is about protagonists failing, we don't get this kind of fun. In fact, it's teased many times in the movie only to be undermined at the last moment. It feels like someone offering you a piece of candy then slapping your hand when you try to take it. And then lecturing you about why candy is bad. But that's the point of TLJ. And it is really well executed. It's sadistic, heartless, and cynical. It makes a mockery of Star Wars. But the reason I and many others hate TLJ so much is because it does effectively communicate this terrible message.

Lucas's prequel movies by contrast trip all over themselves. When we say, the podrace was pretty cool I think we are referring to the idea of the podrace being cool. Lucas was right about that. But in TPM the idea is bogged down by how it is introduced, the role it plays in the story, the way it is framed in the setting, and of course Anakin himself. Same thing with the lightsaber fights. As a concept, acrobatic lightsaber fights should be cool. But in execution they are emotional voids. It's almost like the movie stops and there is this music video inserted. Anyhow, there's more than enough detailed explanations out there of how those movies fail. I would just warn against thinking that because the prequels are true to the spirit of Star Wars, at least in their conception, while TLJ effectively hates Star Wars, that the prequels are better movies than TLJ.

This sums up my thoughts perfectly.

I dislike TLJ so much, because it tells me that I shouldn't like Star Wars in the first place because Star Wars is stupid. So, how do you fix a movie that is in conflict with itself? You can not.

The prequels are not "better" movies, but they DO want to expand stories and try to make an adventure. Their intent is is more "Star Wars" than TLJ could ever hope to achieve.

No, Maul is finally dead. Obi Wan killed him fully in Rebels. It was over a year ago. They sat down, spoke like two adults, then fought to the death. It was actually a pretty powerful scene (somebody linked it here) a while ago.

Watching TLJ last night, I can say with absolute confidence that it is a better made film than either TPM or AotC. It's one thing to dislike TLJ but saying it is worse than those movies is really beyond credible. I could understand, however, someone liking the themes of those movies better than that of TLJ. I am not totally sure what the theme of TLJ even is. If you try to be a hero you deserve to fail?

 Manchu wrote:
I am not totally sure what the theme of TLJ even is. If you try to be a hero you deserve to fail?

I think it is more akin to that you can try your best and still fail and it is how you deal with that failure that is the real test of your character.

 Manchu wrote:
Watching TLJ last night, I can say with absolute confidence that it is a better made film than either TPM or AotC. It's one thing to dislike TLJ but saying it is worse than those movies is really beyond credible. I could understand, however, someone liking the themes of those movies better than that of TLJ. I am not totally sure what the theme of TLJ even is. If you try to be a hero you deserve to fail?

The cinematography and technical quality of TLJ is not under question. Its the vision and core theme that is being questioned.

TPM and AOTC were good visions and themes, executed poorly.
TLJ was a terrible vision and theme, executed very well.

(IMO, of course)

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Watching TLJ last night, I can say with absolute confidence that it is a better made film than either TPM or AotC. It's one thing to dislike TLJ but saying it is worse than those movies is really beyond credible. I could understand, however, someone liking the themes of those movies better than that of TLJ. I am not totally sure what the theme of TLJ even is. If you try to be a hero you deserve to fail?

The cinematography and technical quality of TLJ is not under question. Its the vision and core theme that is being questioned.

TPM and AOTC were good visions and themes, executed poorly.
TLJ was a terrible vision and theme, executed very well.

(IMO, of course)

I didn't think there was anything especially special about the cinematography given the vast budget they had? If it had not looked reasonably good, even more questions should have been asked!

The prequals had some of the same issues IMO, pretty pictures empty of any real meaning or character, souless.

Cinematography isn't just a budget question; its a skill question. There are lots of big budget films that have fairly meh to pretty poor cinematography. They make up for it in other areas, but otherwise they are not highly cinematic.

I'd say that TLJ does stand out in terms of its cinematography in many segments, not all, but a good enough number to make it visually stand out. To me it was cut and missing bits of the story that, whilst they can be mentally added in by the viewer, or overlooked by some - they do at least sit there as a problem that leaves the story feeling forced together in some segments (esp the whole run away and don't tell anyone the plan - and especially don't tell that guy who was just our head fighter pilot the plan even though we know he'll go do something stupid because of it)/

Right!

Since it's Friday night, and I've sucked down half a bottle of Penfold's Koonunga Hill Shiraz-Cabernet 2016, here are my suggestions for improving TLJ.

More cowbell.
Bacon, perhaps wrapped around asparagus or prunes, or cocktail sausages.
Fill it with whipped cream.
Anime eyes.
More girls.
More grills.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Right!

Since it's Friday night, and I've sucked down half a bottle of Penfold's Koonunga Hill Shiraz-Cabernet 2016, here are my suggestions for improving TLJ.

More cowbell.
Bacon, perhaps wrapped around asparagus or prunes, or cocktail sausages.
Fill it with whipped cream.
Anime eyes.
More girls.
More grills.

You didn't add more "pew pew." No sci-fi improvement can be suggested for a series with its roots in the 80s without adding more pew pew lasers!

The action scenes in TLJ are pretty weak overall. The Rey + Kylo teamup fight is really good because (a) it is a great emotional pay off the film has spent a lot of time setting up and it feels very earned and (b) the other action sequences are not as visually interesting and/or emotionally engaging.