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I hated TLJ but it is not worse than TPM and AotC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Relatedly, TPM and AotC could be fixed - the basic ideas and themes are not terrible, but the execution ruins them.

I don't think there is any way to fix TLJ. Again, TLJ is not broken. Rian Johnson, as a screenwriter and director, fully realized his vision. The problem is the vision itself.

You could argue that the movie is boring because the of the splintered structure of the plot. But even that is part of the theme Johnson had in mind - namely that the protagonists are constantly struggling against frustrations that they don't fully understand because they think they are heroes.

Rian Johnson may have had terrible ideas, even to the point where it really seems like he is willfully trying to damage or destroy the Star Wars mythos, but he put them on paper and on the screen pretty faithfully and clearly.

The Podrace was actually fairly cool, and even though you KNEW nothing serious would happen to Anakin (that whole becoming Darth Vader thing and all), it was still pretty intense. Getting Amidala to Coruscant was about five minutes in the ship, multiple lightsaber fights, a harrowing escape which gave R2 some heroics, a look at the Federation clamping down on all hope for the planet, and one of the best lightsaber fights in the entire series; the three actors/fighters REALLY sold it.

It also had an annoying 9 year old kid (but again, he was 9, and he hadn't hit puberty yet so he squeaked when he talked) and it had a racial caricature who was annoying, but had we gotten Lucas's vision (according to the actor) instead of him getting cold feet at the hatred, we'd have an evil version of Yoda hiding in plain sight.

AotC did have a weak Anakin, but the general storyline was fun. Obi-Wan embodied the arrogance of the Jedi, when he denied the truth that Dooku told him, Anakin continued letting his emotions guide him down the path of weakness, and we got to see Anakin start to become "more machine now than man; twisted and evil". Ok, he wasn't more machine and evil yet, but it was the start.

Honestly, the only fun things in TLJ were the fight scenes with Rey and Ren, and Luke trolling both of them and being trolled by Yoda. Finn was wasted, and I had decent hopes for him, Poe had a single moment of "funny" in a Spaceballs sort of way, and then was wasted, and the rest of the movie just felt forced. No, I stand heavily behind even TPM being a better movie. RJ may have accomplished his vision, but he should really have cleaned the gak off his glasses before looking through them.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Spaceballs

Thats a great way to describe it. Going forward, I am just going to refer to anything Star Wars post R1 as Spaceballs now.

The pod race was not cool. It was like watching a commercial for a video game, but without the tension.

At least TPM gave us a sense of an actual setting, with things happening and places to go and everything you'd expect in a setting.

 gorgon wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 chromedog wrote:
Don't go foisting that "logic" thing on me.

The h8rfanboys don't go using it, so don't expect me to.

In order to fix the fanatic hate, it is necessary to take the fans out of their attics. Or at least their basements.

Wow how het up are you to defend at all cost this movie and of course insult anyone who dares to take issue with any element of it. Cos thats adult.

Agreed he could have done better, but from what I've seen these SW threads are exactly what you describe but in reverse.

The main and highly signifcant difference is most detractors attack the film, the die hard defenders attack the people.

It's true that there is little to no FUN in TLJ. This is one of the factors that makes it a bad fit for the Star Wars series. In an adventure movie, fun usually comes from seeing the protagonists succeed in tricky situations. Since TLJ is about protagonists failing, we don't get this kind of fun. In fact, it's teased many times in the movie only to be undermined at the last moment. It feels like someone offering you a piece of candy then slapping your hand when you try to take it. And then lecturing you about why candy is bad. But that's the point of TLJ. And it is really well executed. It's sadistic, heartless, and cynical. It makes a mockery of Star Wars. But the reason I and many others hate TLJ so much is because it does effectively communicate this terrible message.

Lucas's prequel movies by contrast trip all over themselves. When we say, the podrace was pretty cool I think we are referring to the idea of the podrace being cool. Lucas was right about that. But in TPM the idea is bogged down by how it is introduced, the role it plays in the story, the way it is framed in the setting, and of course Anakin himself. Same thing with the lightsaber fights. As a concept, acrobatic lightsaber fights should be cool. But in execution they are emotional voids. It's almost like the movie stops and there is this music video inserted. Anyhow, there's more than enough detailed explanations out there of how those movies fail. I would just warn against thinking that because the prequels are true to the spirit of Star Wars, at least in their conception, while TLJ effectively hates Star Wars, that the prequels are better movies than TLJ.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 chromedog wrote:
Don't go foisting that "logic" thing on me.

The h8rfanboys don't go using it, so don't expect me to.

In order to fix the fanatic hate, it is necessary to take the fans out of their attics. Or at least their basements.

Wow how het up are you to defend at all cost this movie and of course insult anyone who dares to take issue with any element of it. Cos thats adult.

Agreed he could have done better, but from what I've seen these SW threads are exactly what you describe but in reverse.

The main and highly signifcant difference is most detractors attack the film, the die hard defenders attack the people.

This. This. Ten thousand times this.

If your only way of opposing the detractors is ad hominen attacks you've already lost the argument.

 KTG17 wrote:

 Gitzbitah wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
I’m sure everyone remembers Harrison Ford’s famous words to Lucas: “George, you can write this gak, but you sure as hell can’t make people read it”. No matter what GL wrote or did, even he couldn’t make a movie as bad as TLJ. Even Jar Jar Binks is an improvement. Yeah, I said it. Binks is better than RJ.

Dude- I respect your desire to prove your point and all, but really? Worse than The Phantom Menace? .... but worse than the Phantom Menace? It's just not so.

Well, at least Phantom Menace had Darth Maul. TLJ has nobody. Even Luke and Leia are shells of their former selves.

Yeah, great. It had a great looking villian who says and does pretty much nothing and then gets cut in half and disappears from the rest of the trillogy to be replaced by an old guy (Duku). Maul is great in all the expanded stuff. He's nothing in TPM. It's like people enjoying Boba Fett. He does cool things in everything BUT the movies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vulcan wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 chromedog wrote:
Don't go foisting that "logic" thing on me.

The h8rfanboys don't go using it, so don't expect me to.

In order to fix the fanatic hate, it is necessary to take the fans out of their attics. Or at least their basements.

Wow how het up are you to defend at all cost this movie and of course insult anyone who dares to take issue with any element of it. Cos thats adult.

Agreed he could have done better, but from what I've seen these SW threads are exactly what you describe but in reverse.

The main and highly signifcant difference is most detractors attack the film, the die hard defenders attack the people.

This. This. Ten thousand times this.

If your only way of opposing the detractors is ad hominen attacks you've already lost the argument.

Disagree. I have seen more detractors ASSUME they were being attacked when in fact they were not being talked about at all then I have seen people actually attack anyone.

 Vulcan wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

The main and highly signifcant difference is most detractors attack the film, the die hard defenders attack the people.

This. This. Ten thousand times this.

If your only way of opposing the detractors is ad hominen attacks you've already lost the argument.

When the critics write stuff like "Phantom Menace is better than TLJ", it's very hard to take them seriously and not call them idiots.

Phantom Menace, AotC and RotS have massive problems:

-none of the characters is in any way engaging. Well, maybe Palpatine. Who is a villain. Who were we rooting for again?
-movies include very annoying, one-dimensional stereotype characters and some shockingly bad casting choices
-directing and cinematography is incredibly uninspiring. Everything is done in front of greenscreen, actors come across detached from environment and seem annoyed the whole time as they can't see or react to anything.
-Plot is full of holes. "It's dangerous to put Padme and Anakin together. Hey, lets send them to this distant planet with no supervision."
-Dialogue is tepid and ludicrous.
-Way too much fan service and inbredness of the universe (C3PO built by Anakin? Boba Fett's dad who has exact same suit?)

By contrast, Disney SW movies are competently directed, use much more real sets which make the action look much more engaging and dialogue is much more dynamic and interesting and humour doesn't rely on stupid insulting stereotype slapstick characters.
So, even if EVERYTHING ELSE in the movies (plot, characters, derivativeness) is no better than Episodes 1-3, the Disney movies are nevertheless much superior in other respects I mentioned. After watching prequels, experience of watching TFA first time was great, because for first time for umpteen years a Star Wars movie felt like you were actually there, just like in original trilogy, because the scenes and shooting was so much more lively and engaging and not bunch of guys walking in boring, sterile, lifeless settings.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KTG17 wrote:

Well, at least Phantom Menace had Darth Maul. TLJ has nobody. Even Luke and Leia are shells of their former selves.

Darth Maul, a character with dumb name who had what, 1 line of dialogue which the actor didn't speak himself. He existed entirely so that the heroes had somebody to swordfight, and was given no personality or dimension whatsoever beyond that. I actually still remember watching the movie in the theatre and when the fight was over and Maul sliced in half, I was literally yawning, because why should I have cared about that guy? I mean Dooku sucked too but at least he had few scenes and some exposition to tell us who he was and how he operated.

Yeah, I take Kylo Ren and Snoke any time over them.

And Luke, Leia and Han are supposed to be shells of their former selves. Otherwise, why would you need any new heroes for your movies? You didn't see Yoda gearing up and killing the Emperor in Empire Strikes Back or ROTJ, did you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyway, how would I fix TLJ? Basically the movie's problem is that it is too long and has very derivative extra act after it supposedly climaxes.

-Drop Rose. Or if she needs to be there, make her a minor character who makes Poe uncomfortable as his attack plan got her sister killed.

-Instead, it is Poe and Finn who go on rogue mission to Casino World (which can be cut a bit now), Poe storms off the bridge before Holdo can explain her plan. Holdo rolls her eyes here.

-So they fail, just like in actual movie, but they do manage to save Rey from damaged flagship. Everyone in the Resistance crash lands on the planet.

-Kylo Ren is dealing with a damaged fleet, but he still does have resources superior to Resistance, so he follows them with Stormtroopers and other stuff.

-NOW Luke beams in and confronts Kylo like in the movie. Whole "Death Star gun/speeder attack" -scene is left out. Resistance escapes, leaving Kylo screaming his rage on the planet.

-maybe cut some of awkward humour out (Poe prank call etc)

So what we have then? Pretty much the same movie, all the main characters undergo more or less same developement, but less drawn out, more to the point and leaves more room to potential exposition or character moments. Most notably, more Rey actually training the Force instead of apparently everything dropping to her like a gift.

 Lance845 wrote:

 KTG17 wrote:

 Gitzbitah wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
I’m sure everyone remembers Harrison Ford’s famous words to Lucas: “George, you can write this gak, but you sure as hell can’t make people read it”. No matter what GL wrote or did, even he couldn’t make a movie as bad as TLJ. Even Jar Jar Binks is an improvement. Yeah, I said it. Binks is better than RJ.

Dude- I respect your desire to prove your point and all, but really? Worse than The Phantom Menace? .... but worse than the Phantom Menace? It's just not so.

Well, at least Phantom Menace had Darth Maul. TLJ has nobody. Even Luke and Leia are shells of their former selves.

Yeah, great. It had a great looking villian who says and does pretty much nothing and then gets cut in half and disappears from the rest of the trillogy to be replaced by an old guy (Duku). Maul is great in all the expanded stuff. He's nothing in TPM. It's like people enjoying Boba Fett. He does cool things in everything BUT the movies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vulcan wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 chromedog wrote:
Don't go foisting that "logic" thing on me.

The h8rfanboys don't go using it, so don't expect me to.

In order to fix the fanatic hate, it is necessary to take the fans out of their attics. Or at least their basements.

Wow how het up are you to defend at all cost this movie and of course insult anyone who dares to take issue with any element of it. Cos thats adult.

Agreed he could have done better, but from what I've seen these SW threads are exactly what you describe but in reverse.

The main and highly signifcant difference is most detractors attack the film, the die hard defenders attack the people.

This. This. Ten thousand times this.

If your only way of opposing the detractors is ad hominen attacks you've already lost the argument.

Disagree. I have seen more detractors ASSUME they were being attacked when in fact they were not being talked about at all then I have seen people actually attack anyone.

Boba fett was basically a background filler. He literally could have been removed from the OT and nothing would have changed. Maul was playing a dark wanderer character. It is expected he will say nothing - He makes up for his silence with the most BA scene in starwars history. He kills Obiwans master in an the most epic sabre battle ever ever seen. This forces Obi to train Luke. We learn a lot from this and it gives us a reason and a glimps of Obi's power. The Boba comparison is weak.

It's a fair comaprison to Snoke though - who talked plenty but still sucked balls. Maul reveals more in one line than snoke does two movies full of lines. "At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi, At last we will have revenge"

From this scene we learn Darthmaul is a Sith lord trained by Palpatine and after years of hiding - this is when they are striking. It's pretty Epic dude. It's amazing that after all the snoke time we got - we still know nothing about him.

Backfire wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

The main and highly signifcant difference is most detractors attack the film, the die hard defenders attack the people.

This. This. Ten thousand times this.

If your only way of opposing the detractors is ad hominen attacks you've already lost the argument.

When the critics write stuff like "Phantom Menace is better than TLJ", it's very hard to take them seriously and not call them idiots.

Phantom Menace, AotC and RotS have massive problems:

-none of the characters is in any way engaging. Well, maybe Palpatine. Who is a villain. Who were we rooting for again?
-movies include very annoying, one-dimensional stereotype characters and some shockingly bad casting choices
-directing and cinematography is incredibly uninspiring. Everything is done in front of greenscreen, actors come across detached from environment and seem annoyed the whole time as they can't see or react to anything.
-Plot is full of holes. "It's dangerous to put Padme and Anakin together. Hey, lets send them to this distant planet with no supervision."
-Dialogue is tepid and ludicrous.
-Way too much fan service and inbredness of the universe (C3PO built by Anakin? Boba Fett's dad who has exact same suit?)

By contrast, Disney SW movies are competently directed, use much more real sets which make the action look much more engaging and dialogue is much more dynamic and interesting and humour doesn't rely on stupid insulting stereotype slapstick characters.
So, even if EVERYTHING ELSE in the movies (plot, characters, derivativeness) is no better than Episodes 1-3, the Disney movies are nevertheless much superior in other respects I mentioned. After watching prequels, experience of watching TFA first time was great, because for first time for umpteen years a Star Wars movie felt like you were actually there, just like in original trilogy, because the scenes and shooting was so much more lively and engaging and not bunch of guys walking in boring, sterile, lifeless settings.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KTG17 wrote:

Well, at least Phantom Menace had Darth Maul. TLJ has nobody. Even Luke and Leia are shells of their former selves.

Darth Maul, a character with dumb name who had what, 1 line of dialogue which the actor didn't speak himself. He existed entirely so that the heroes had somebody to swordfight, and was given no personality or dimension whatsoever beyond that. I actually still remember watching the movie in the theatre and when the fight was over and Maul sliced in half, I was literally yawning, because why should I have cared about that guy? I mean Dooku sucked too but at least he had few scenes and some exposition to tell us who he was and how he operated.

Yeah, I take Kylo Ren and Snoke any time over them.

And Luke, Leia and Han are supposed to be shells of their former selves. Otherwise, why would you need any new heroes for your movies? You didn't see Yoda gearing up and killing the Emperor in Empire Strikes Back or ROTJ, did you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyway, how would I fix TLJ? Basically the movie's problem is that it is too long and has very derivative extra act after it supposedly climaxes.

-Drop Rose. Or if she needs to be there, make her a minor character who makes Poe uncomfortable as his attack plan got her sister killed.

-Instead, it is Poe and Finn who go on rogue mission to Casino World (which can be cut a bit now), Poe storms off the bridge before Holdo can explain her plan. Holdo rolls her eyes here.

-So they fail, just like in actual movie, but they do manage to save Rey from damaged flagship. Everyone in the Resistance crash lands on the planet.

-Kylo Ren is dealing with a damaged fleet, but he still does have resources superior to Resistance, so he follows them with Stormtroopers and other stuff.

-NOW Luke beams in and confronts Kylo like in the movie. Whole "Death Star gun/speeder attack" -scene is left out. Resistance escapes, leaving Kylo screaming his rage on the planet.

-maybe cut some of awkward humour out (Poe prank call etc)

So what we have then? Pretty much the same movie, all the main characters undergo more or less same developement, but less drawn out, more to the point and leaves more room to potential exposition or character moments. Most notably, more Rey actually training the Force instead of apparently everything dropping to her like a gift.

Dude - you like Kylo more than Darthmaul. You are basically hopeless. There really isn't much that can be done to save you.

Kylo is probably the most interesting character in the new trilogy. That isn't saying much though. He's a whining brat with no strength. Wears a mask not because it's cool - but because he is ashamed of how pathetic he is - and snoke (a nobody) talks down to him like the brat boy he is and he frowns like a pathetic baby. He represents the emasculation of man which is the entire premiss of of the new trilogy. Another reason why the whole trilogy sucks.

Kylo Ren is great and certainly a much more interesting character than Darth Maul. Darth Maul is a piece of concept art, at best.

As one of TLJ biggest defenders on this forum. I have to say , the level of vitriol aimed at it combined with people feeling personally attacked whenever you defend it, it is exhausting.
Kylo Ren is weak pathetic, but he is interesting because of that. After all we allready have Vader.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I have long since had a pet peeve that heroes can say feth the world and by deus ex machina still save it. I like TLJ for challenging those tropes in Poe’s and Finn’s storyline.

 Manchu wrote:
Kylo Ren is great and certainly a much more interesting character than Darth Maul. Darth Maul is a piece of concept art, at best.

Right.

This is why Maul is like Fette. He just looks cool.

And that lightsaber fight. It's big and flashy, but they spend the entire fight swinging their lihtsabers at each others lightsabers. Ray Park is really great in it. He brings a lot of energy and enthusiasm to that fight. But they aren't really attacking each other. All the prequel lightsaber fights suffer from that. They are overly choreographed to the point of being nonsense.

Maul should have survived. He should have been the vader of the prequels, going movie to movie being a horrible sith assassin popping out, cutting people down and disappearing. Obi Wan and Anakin should have watched people they have known most of their life die one after the other because of Maul. Maul should have been the vehicle the Emperor used to push Anakin farther and farther into fear and hate and thus towards the dark side with Anakin going full Dark when he goes berzerk and cuts down Maul himself. Obi trying to pull him back from the brink, and Anakin turning on him in his rage.

Instead we had a revolving door of 1 off cool looking bad guys who die in the movie they get introduced and Count Duku... Great.

 Earth127 wrote:
Kylo Ren is weak pathetic, but he is interesting because of that.

Very much agree about Kylo Ren. Well he is not really all that weak, that's a misconception. It's more interesting that that. The most dangerous thing is someone who is powerful but feels weak. That is Kylo Ren. (As he showed Snoke.)

It's a pity that TLJ - par for the course - led up to something interesting happening with his character only to pull the rug out at the last moment.

 Earth127 wrote:
As one of TLJ biggest defenders on this forum. I have to say , the level of vitriol aimed at it combined with people feeling personally attacked whenever you defend it, it is exhausting.
Kylo Ren is weak pathetic, but he is interesting because of that. After all we allready have Vader.

In contrast those (included myself) who expressed their issues with the plot, characters or pace were directly or indirectly accused of being sexist, racist, unable to comprend the sheer brilliance of the director becuase we were ignorant or foolish shmucks just expressing hidden subconscious predujices even we were unaware of.

If you said Rose was a poor character with a stupid story arc you were/are sexist and / or racist.

If you called out the stupidity of the Ship of Fools Chase - well you hate women.

etc etc.

I don't mind Kylo Ren - a competant director might have actually done something interesting with the relationship between him and Rey and perhaps even everyone else in the film. Sadly we just got the pile of gak we got.

say feth the world and by deus ex machina still save it. I like TLJ for challenging those tropes in Poe’s and Finn’s storyline.

You did watch the end of the film right ? Where the Heroine swooped in and saved everyone along with a Angelic Luke?

Rose is a poor character with no arc whatsoever. I think that is totally fair and accurate. I defy anyone here to sincerely accuse me of racism of sexism for holding that view.

Rey and Kylo had a nice build up throughout TLJ. It was what kept me going through the film. And when Kylo is like, no more Jedi and no more Sith, I was like - oh snap maybe, despite all its faults, this movie will achieve something. But nope.

 Manchu wrote:
Rose is a poor character with no arc whatsoever. I think that is totally fair and accurate. I defy anyone here to sincerely accuse me of racism of sexism for holding that view.

Rey and Kylo had a nice build up throughout TLJ. It was what kept me going through the film. And when Kylo is like, no more Jedi and no more Sith, I was like - oh snap maybe, despite all its faults, this movie will achieve something. But nope.

yep - thats what annoys about all this subversive nonsense - the Director had the opporunity to take it all in a whole new direction but bottled out or was too lazy and went - nah he is just another Dark Lord, - where's my pay check.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Earth127 wrote:
As one of TLJ biggest defenders on this forum. I have to say , the level of vitriol aimed at it combined with people feeling personally attacked whenever you defend it, it is exhausting.
Kylo Ren is weak pathetic, but he is interesting because of that. After all we allready have Vader.

In contrast those (included myself) who expressed their issues with the plot, characters or pace were directly or indirectly accused of being sexist, racist, unable to comprend the sheer brilliance of the director becuase we were ignorant or foolish shmucks just expressing hidden subconscious predujices even we were unaware of.

Find me a quote on this forum of that happening. Because it didnt happen.

If you said Rose was a poor character with a stupid story arc you were/are sexist and / or racist.

That didn't happen.

If you called out the stupidity of the Ship of Fools Chase - well you hate women.

etc etc.

Nope.

First show me where you saw all these poor Defenders have been abused rather than the film itself first.

2 pages back we get lovely constructive contributions like this.

"The h8rfanboys don't go using it, so don't expect me to. In order to fix the fanatic hate, it is necessary to take the fans out of their attics. Or at least their basements. "

Backfire wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

The main and highly signifcant difference is most detractors attack the film, the die hard defenders attack the people.

This. This. Ten thousand times this.

If your only way of opposing the detractors is ad hominen attacks you've already lost the argument.

When the critics write stuff like "Phantom Menace is better than TLJ", it's very hard to take them seriously and not call them idiots.

Phantom Menace, AotC and RotS have massive problems:

-none of the characters is in any way engaging. Well, maybe Palpatine. Who is a villain. Who were we rooting for again?
-movies include very annoying, one-dimensional stereotype characters and some shockingly bad casting choices
-directing and cinematography is incredibly uninspiring. Everything is done in front of greenscreen, actors come across detached from environment and seem annoyed the whole time as they can't see or react to anything.
-Plot is full of holes. "It's dangerous to put Padme and Anakin together. Hey, lets send them to this distant planet with no supervision."
-Dialogue is tepid and ludicrous.
-Way too much fan service and inbredness of the universe (C3PO built by Anakin? Boba Fett's dad who has exact same suit?)

By contrast, Disney SW movies are competently directed, use much more real sets which make the action look much more engaging and dialogue is much more dynamic and interesting and humour doesn't rely on stupid insulting stereotype slapstick characters.
So, even if EVERYTHING ELSE in the movies (plot, characters, derivativeness) is no better than Episodes 1-3, the Disney movies are nevertheless much superior in other respects I mentioned. After watching prequels, experience of watching TFA first time was great, because for first time for umpteen years a Star Wars movie felt like you were actually there, just like in original trilogy, because the scenes and shooting was so much more lively and engaging and not bunch of guys walking in boring, sterile, lifeless settings.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KTG17 wrote:

Well, at least Phantom Menace had Darth Maul. TLJ has nobody. Even Luke and Leia are shells of their former selves.

Darth Maul, a character with dumb name who had what, 1 line of dialogue which the actor didn't speak himself. He existed entirely so that the heroes had somebody to swordfight, and was given no personality or dimension whatsoever beyond that. I actually still remember watching the movie in the theatre and when the fight was over and Maul sliced in half, I was literally yawning, because why should I have cared about that guy? I mean Dooku sucked too but at least he had few scenes and some exposition to tell us who he was and how he operated.

Yeah, I take Kylo Ren and Snoke any time over them.

And Luke, Leia and Han are supposed to be shells of their former selves. Otherwise, why would you need any new heroes for your movies? You didn't see Yoda gearing up and killing the Emperor in Empire Strikes Back or ROTJ, did you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyway, how would I fix TLJ? Basically the movie's problem is that it is too long and has very derivative extra act after it supposedly climaxes.

-Drop Rose. Or if she needs to be there, make her a minor character who makes Poe uncomfortable as his attack plan got her sister killed.

-Instead, it is Poe and Finn who go on rogue mission to Casino World (which can be cut a bit now), Poe storms off the bridge before Holdo can explain her plan. Holdo rolls her eyes here.

-So they fail, just like in actual movie, but they do manage to save Rey from damaged flagship. Everyone in the Resistance crash lands on the planet.

-Kylo Ren is dealing with a damaged fleet, but he still does have resources superior to Resistance, so he follows them with Stormtroopers and other stuff.

-NOW Luke beams in and confronts Kylo like in the movie. Whole "Death Star gun/speeder attack" -scene is left out. Resistance escapes, leaving Kylo screaming his rage on the planet.

-maybe cut some of awkward humour out (Poe prank call etc)

So what we have then? Pretty much the same movie, all the main characters undergo more or less same developement, but less drawn out, more to the point and leaves more room to potential exposition or character moments. Most notably, more Rey actually training the Force instead of apparently everything dropping to her like a gift.

really, this is how you discuss movies?calling other people idiots?

Rey doesnt save the fleet. And that’s the point. Sorry I am not on my pc , so I can’t type as long as I would like.

 Frazzled wrote:

Backfire wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

The main and highly signifcant difference is most detractors attack the film, the die hard defenders attack the people.

This. This. Ten thousand times this.

If your only way of opposing the detractors is ad hominen attacks you've already lost the argument.

When the critics write stuff like "Phantom Menace is better than TLJ", it's very hard to take them seriously and not call them idiots.

Phantom Menace, AotC and RotS have massive problems:

-none of the characters is in any way engaging. Well, maybe Palpatine. Who is a villain. Who were we rooting for again?
-movies include very annoying, one-dimensional stereotype characters and some shockingly bad casting choices
-directing and cinematography is incredibly uninspiring. Everything is done in front of greenscreen, actors come across detached from environment and seem annoyed the whole time as they can't see or react to anything.
-Plot is full of holes. "It's dangerous to put Padme and Anakin together. Hey, lets send them to this distant planet with no supervision."
-Dialogue is tepid and ludicrous.
-Way too much fan service and inbredness of the universe (C3PO built by Anakin? Boba Fett's dad who has exact same suit?)

By contrast, Disney SW movies are competently directed, use much more real sets which make the action look much more engaging and dialogue is much more dynamic and interesting and humour doesn't rely on stupid insulting stereotype slapstick characters.
So, even if EVERYTHING ELSE in the movies (plot, characters, derivativeness) is no better than Episodes 1-3, the Disney movies are nevertheless much superior in other respects I mentioned. After watching prequels, experience of watching TFA first time was great, because for first time for umpteen years a Star Wars movie felt like you were actually there, just like in original trilogy, because the scenes and shooting was so much more lively and engaging and not bunch of guys walking in boring, sterile, lifeless settings.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KTG17 wrote:

Well, at least Phantom Menace had Darth Maul. TLJ has nobody. Even Luke and Leia are shells of their former selves.

Darth Maul, a character with dumb name who had what, 1 line of dialogue which the actor didn't speak himself. He existed entirely so that the heroes had somebody to swordfight, and was given no personality or dimension whatsoever beyond that. I actually still remember watching the movie in the theatre and when the fight was over and Maul sliced in half, I was literally yawning, because why should I have cared about that guy? I mean Dooku sucked too but at least he had few scenes and some exposition to tell us who he was and how he operated.

Yeah, I take Kylo Ren and Snoke any time over them.

And Luke, Leia and Han are supposed to be shells of their former selves. Otherwise, why would you need any new heroes for your movies? You didn't see Yoda gearing up and killing the Emperor in Empire Strikes Back or ROTJ, did you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyway, how would I fix TLJ? Basically the movie's problem is that it is too long and has very derivative extra act after it supposedly climaxes.

-Drop Rose. Or if she needs to be there, make her a minor character who makes Poe uncomfortable as his attack plan got her sister killed.

-Instead, it is Poe and Finn who go on rogue mission to Casino World (which can be cut a bit now), Poe storms off the bridge before Holdo can explain her plan. Holdo rolls her eyes here.

-So they fail, just like in actual movie, but they do manage to save Rey from damaged flagship. Everyone in the Resistance crash lands on the planet.

-Kylo Ren is dealing with a damaged fleet, but he still does have resources superior to Resistance, so he follows them with Stormtroopers and other stuff.

-NOW Luke beams in and confronts Kylo like in the movie. Whole "Death Star gun/speeder attack" -scene is left out. Resistance escapes, leaving Kylo screaming his rage on the planet.

-maybe cut some of awkward humour out (Poe prank call etc)

So what we have then? Pretty much the same movie, all the main characters undergo more or less same developement, but less drawn out, more to the point and leaves more room to potential exposition or character moments. Most notably, more Rey actually training the Force instead of apparently everything dropping to her like a gift.

really, this is how you discuss movies?calling other people idiots?

He talked about it alot - you wrote one line?

Critics = parasites - not idiots but they do feed themselves via others work and the money or good will of some of those those they review.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Critics = parasites - not idiots but they do feed themselves via others work and the money or good will of some of those those they review.

No, that's too extreme. The issue is there are a lot of folks who claim to be critics but don't actually do that job very well. A good critic provides a lot of value to the consumer. Roger Ebert will be the shining example of this but Pauline Kale was also very good. We live in a different age, where anyone can claim to be a critic, including people collecting checks from the folks marketing the movies they claim to "review." But let's not throw out criticism when we acknowledge that there is a lot of shillery and flat ignorance masquerading as criticism.

 Manchu wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Critics = parasites - not idiots but they do feed themselves via others work and the money or good will of some of those those they review.

No, that's too extreme. The issue is there are a lot of folks who claim to be critics but don't actually do that job very well. A good critic provides a lot of value to the consumer. Roger Ebert will be the shining example of this but Pauline Kale was also very good. We live in a different age, where anyone can claim to be a critic, including people collecting checks from the folks marketing the movies they claim to "review." But let's not throw out criticism when we acknowledge that there is a lot of shillery and flat ignorance masquerading as criticism.

What do Critics provide for you? I don;t get it.

I have no use or interest for or in them. Applies to Food and Film. I'll decide what I like or dont like.

As is perfectly your right.

But you dont get to accuse people of bribery,fraud and falsehood without some prove to validate your own opinion.

I don't think critics can tell us whether we like something. I think they can tell us about what a piece of art is trying for and how/why it succeeds or fails. Contrast this to the "criticism" around, for example, TLJ in the internet junk "press" which is obsessed with insulting people who don't like the movie.

TLJ is a film designed by people who hate and wish to subvert Star Wars for people who hate and wish to subvert Star Wars. At this it succeeded exceedingly well. No wonder modern movie critics loved it.

 Mr Morden wrote:
First show me where you saw all these poor Defenders have been abused rather than the film itself first.

2 pages back we get lovely constructive contributions like this.

"The h8rfanboys don't go using it, so don't expect me to. In order to fix the fanatic hate, it is necessary to take the fans out of their attics. Or at least their basements. "

And you think that implies that hes calling people sexist racists who cannot comprehend the brilliance of the director?

 Lance845 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
First show me where you saw all these poor Defenders have been abused rather than the film itself first.

2 pages back we get lovely constructive contributions like this.

"The h8rfanboys don't go using it, so don't expect me to. In order to fix the fanatic hate, it is necessary to take the fans out of their attics. Or at least their basements. "

And you think that implies that hes calling people sexist racists who cannot comprehend the brilliance of the director?

"Sigh" Actually read my reply and then find you own quotes to back up your previous accusations. I'll wait.

But you dont get to accuse people of bribery,fraud and falsehood without some prove to validate your own opinion.

Its an opinon backed by observation - I can say what I like. When do Crictics have to back anyhting up with facts or proof??

Lets not derail this thread _ I'll make a new one to discuss the worthlessness of Critcis