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While I wouldn't mind making the good stuff more expensive as a method of balancing I do think that approach would take much longer until we achieve a good balance between most stuff. The really bad stuff would sit around being bad forever, as it would still be out classed by everything else. In other words: The number of known bad models is much greater than the number of OP models. The ideal way would be going both directions, so we achieve balance somewhere in the middle. I do hope we see points adjustments to atleast 50% of all units next CA, but I guess that will not happen. My previous mentions are just units I know to be overpriced by my experience.

Bloat Drones and Daemon Princes could need a price increase. I've won every game where I've used them and they never died, for me that's a hint they're too cheap.

Horticuous Slimux could need a price drop as he's simply too slow.

Plague Hulk and Blight Drone could easily lose 50 points each to be on the same level as GW units.

Terminators. Unlike others I find them already much better than last edition, they're just a bit too expensive compared to all the cheap cannon fodder out there.

tneva82 wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Captain hammer doesn’t need an increase. He eats a relic, possibly a warlord trait if you want 4 damage or better fnp, and then a metric ton of CP to function. Using him generally means that the rest of your army has to function without CP because he hogs it all.

And then he dies because he’s a little 5 wound marine standing out in the open.

Sure he does. If you see the model significantly more often than other HQ choices .. say a Chaplain in Terminator armour or maybe Tycho or whatever, it means the balance is off.

Need to adjust until all choices are equally attractive.

But then you also raise cost of captains without those.


Thanks gw for going non-scalable arsed system of relics and strategems

How about they make it so relics ALWAYS cost Command Points, but you start with more for being Battleforged. Relics would have a CP cost attached to them from 1-4 CP. That way, there is some form of an opportunity cost for them. Want a super-powerful relic, well it runs you 4 CP.

I really wish Relics had a cost. I'd prefer points, but CP could do it too. How can you make the Shard of Anaris be what it should be, and have it cost as much as a pistol that... fires twice?

I want both the Fireblade and Shard of Anaris to be in the game. Fireblade should be a little better than a Power Sword. Shard of Anaris should be some instant-death ubersword that everyone should fear. There's no way to make both be viable at the same cost without ruining one of them.

Bharring wrote:
I really wish Relics had a cost. I'd prefer points, but CP could do it too. How can you make the Shard of Anaris be what it should be, and have it cost as much as a pistol that... fires twice?

I want both the Fireblade and Shard of Anaris to be in the game. Fireblade should be a little better than a Power Sword. Shard of Anaris should be some instant-death ubersword that everyone should fear. There's no way to make both be viable at the same cost without ruining one of them.

I can sort of get behind this thinking.

There should be some "cost/reward" type thinking of picking relics. Honestly, there are so many sub-par choices (even if you want to play "fluffy"), especially in the older codices, that certain ones are shoe horned in. I would also like to see additional relics introduced in CA for older codices, or reworking of crappy ones to make them usable.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Bloat Drones and Daemon Princes could need a price increase. I've won every game where I've used them and they never died, for me that's a hint they're too cheap.

Horticuous Slimux could need a price drop as he's simply too slow.

Plague Hulk and Blight Drone could easily lose 50 points each to be on the same level as GW units.

Terminators. Unlike others I find them already much better than last edition, they're just a bit too expensive compared to all the cheap cannon fodder out there.

I don't think the Daemon prince needs adjusted. I think the Death Guard traits and relics are super good. I'm personally hoping for a massive nerf to some key DG units. I'd really like to see PBC's go up 30-50 points or make them T7.

Terminators need points decrease for sure. I'd also like to see them maybe get a third wound or T5.

 chimeara wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Bloat Drones and Daemon Princes could need a price increase. I've won every game where I've used them and they never died, for me that's a hint they're too cheap.

Horticuous Slimux could need a price drop as he's simply too slow.

Plague Hulk and Blight Drone could easily lose 50 points each to be on the same level as GW units.

Terminators. Unlike others I find them already much better than last edition, they're just a bit too expensive compared to all the cheap cannon fodder out there.

I don't think the Daemon prince needs adjusted. I think the Death Guard traits and relics are super good. I'm personally hoping for a massive nerf to some key DG units. I'd really like to see PBC's go up 30-50 points or make them T7.

Terminators need points decrease for sure. I'd also like to see them maybe get a third wound or T5.

PBC's really aren't broken though, they're hard to kill, but damage output leaves a lot to be desired. Demon princes seem fine, 180 points for 8 wounds on a T6 model with a 5++ isn't that bad, especially when you compare it to the 140 point smash captains which crush everything with their flat D3, 5 attacks, rerolling str 8 thunderhammers.

But they don't have to kill stuff, it is enough that you take the DP and primarch to kill some stuff, while the 100 PG move one unit at a time stalling the time. For some armies this means they may not even get to play 2 full turns if they are melee, while your scoring , getting first blood and points for slays opponents general.

Karol wrote:
But they don't have to kill stuff, it is enough that you take the DP and primarch to kill some stuff, while the 100 PG move one unit at a time stalling the time. For some armies this means they may not even get to play 2 full turns if they are melee, while your scoring , getting first blood and points for slays opponents general.

PBC's are exactly that; a distraction most of the time, and they play that role well. I don't see how they're broken anymore honestly, in the old meta they were because you could have as many as you wanted. Now, being limited to three means many armies can ignore them for a turn or two (depending where they are) before they get close enough, and deal with the real threats (Demon Princes, Plaguebearers, etc.) You don't exactly see Death Guard tearing up the competitive charts, especially with IK rolling around now.

 Zid wrote:

Karol wrote:
But they don't have to kill stuff, it is enough that you take the DP and primarch to kill some stuff, while the 100 PG move one unit at a time stalling the time. For some armies this means they may not even get to play 2 full turns if they are melee, while your scoring , getting first blood and points for slays opponents general.

PBC's are exactly that; a distraction most of the time, and they play that role well. I don't see how they're broken anymore honestly, in the old meta they were because you could have as many as you wanted. Now, being limited to three means many armies can ignore them for a turn or two (depending where they are) before they get close enough, and deal with the real threats (Demon Princes, Plaguebearers, etc.) You don't exactly see Death Guard tearing up the competitive charts, especially with IK rolling around now.

It's likely that I play an assault army, so proper tactics are needed otherwise they tear me up. All the DG players out here always run 3 and they always use them as front line screens knowing I have to go to them to do any damage. Other than the ridiculous flamer, I think they have a total package that makes them super hard to deal with. 12 wounds, 3+/5+++, T8 is a hard nut to crack in melee when they spit 2D6 S7 flamers. It's a lot to deal with for something that costs cheaper than a Predator.

Then again, it might just be salt flowing.

I think in terms of upping costs things aren't necessarily bad, just being exploited. So a lot of people who don't like Guard generating CPs in soup armies want their basic stuff to be more expensive. A bloke with a lasgun isn't that good however.

i think the way round that is to make more of the optional upgrades costed into squads. So for a guard infantry squad the cost of a vox should be included. So now a squad costs 48 points, but the vox upgrade is just 1 point. And so on.

Other areas for unattractive units isn't always a straight point basis. Take Chimera's - they cost more than the infantry they transport and in practice the infantry support the IFV not the other way round. In an ideal world it would be worth less than the squad. Something like some sort of combination of perhaps BS5+, toughness 6 and/or save 4+ to make it the light skinned fighting vehicle such things our in our world that could be costed at a lot less.

The_Real_Chris wrote:
I think in terms of upping costs things aren't necessarily bad, just being exploited. So a lot of people who don't like Guard generating CPs in soup armies want their basic stuff to be more expensive. A bloke with a lasgun isn't that good however.

i think the way round that is to make more of the optional upgrades costed into squads. So for a guard infantry squad the cost of a vox should be included. So now a squad costs 48 points, but the vox upgrade is just 1 point. And so on.

Other areas for unattractive units isn't always a straight point basis. Take Chimera's - they cost more than the infantry they transport and in practice the infantry support the IFV not the other way round. In an ideal world it would be worth less than the squad. Something like some sort of combination of perhaps BS5+, toughness 6 and/or save 4+ to make it the light skinned fighting vehicle such things our in our world that could be costed at a lot less.

A bloke with a lasgun is not that killy. That does not mean he's not that good.

 Zid wrote:

 chimeara wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Bloat Drones and Daemon Princes could need a price increase. I've won every game where I've used them and they never died, for me that's a hint they're too cheap.

Horticuous Slimux could need a price drop as he's simply too slow.

Plague Hulk and Blight Drone could easily lose 50 points each to be on the same level as GW units.

Terminators. Unlike others I find them already much better than last edition, they're just a bit too expensive compared to all the cheap cannon fodder out there.

I don't think the Daemon prince needs adjusted. I think the Death Guard traits and relics are super good. I'm personally hoping for a massive nerf to some key DG units. I'd really like to see PBC's go up 30-50 points or make them T7.

Terminators need points decrease for sure. I'd also like to see them maybe get a third wound or T5.

PBC's really aren't broken though, they're hard to kill, but damage output leaves a lot to be desired. Demon princes seem fine, 180 points for 8 wounds on a T6 model with a 5++ isn't that bad, especially when you compare it to the 140 point smash captains which crush everything with their flat D3, 5 attacks, rerolling str 8 thunderhammers.

Demon princes can function without relic and cp support. And are psykers. They are way better than a ba capt.

Martel732 wrote:

 Zid wrote:

 chimeara wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Bloat Drones and Daemon Princes could need a price increase. I've won every game where I've used them and they never died, for me that's a hint they're too cheap.

Horticuous Slimux could need a price drop as he's simply too slow.

Plague Hulk and Blight Drone could easily lose 50 points each to be on the same level as GW units.

Terminators. Unlike others I find them already much better than last edition, they're just a bit too expensive compared to all the cheap cannon fodder out there.

I don't think the Daemon prince needs adjusted. I think the Death Guard traits and relics are super good. I'm personally hoping for a massive nerf to some key DG units. I'd really like to see PBC's go up 30-50 points or make them T7.

Terminators need points decrease for sure. I'd also like to see them maybe get a third wound or T5.

PBC's really aren't broken though, they're hard to kill, but damage output leaves a lot to be desired. Demon princes seem fine, 180 points for 8 wounds on a T6 model with a 5++ isn't that bad, especially when you compare it to the 140 point smash captains which crush everything with their flat D3, 5 attacks, rerolling str 8 thunderhammers.

Demon princes can function without relic and cp support. And are psykers. They are way better than a ba capt.

I can see that point. But is 180 too little, or just right? I run 3 every game and none of my opponents have struggled to kill them all (Unless I completely thwomp stuff first)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 chimeara wrote:

 Zid wrote:

Karol wrote:
But they don't have to kill stuff, it is enough that you take the DP and primarch to kill some stuff, while the 100 PG move one unit at a time stalling the time. For some armies this means they may not even get to play 2 full turns if they are melee, while your scoring , getting first blood and points for slays opponents general.

PBC's are exactly that; a distraction most of the time, and they play that role well. I don't see how they're broken anymore honestly, in the old meta they were because you could have as many as you wanted. Now, being limited to three means many armies can ignore them for a turn or two (depending where they are) before they get close enough, and deal with the real threats (Demon Princes, Plaguebearers, etc.) You don't exactly see Death Guard tearing up the competitive charts, especially with IK rolling around now.

It's likely that I play an assault army, so proper tactics are needed otherwise they tear me up. All the DG players out here always run 3 and they always use them as front line screens knowing I have to go to them to do any damage. Other than the ridiculous flamer, I think they have a total package that makes them super hard to deal with. 12 wounds, 3+/5+++, T8 is a hard nut to crack in melee when they spit 2D6 S7 flamers. It's a lot to deal with for something that costs cheaper than a Predator.

Then again, it might just be salt flowing.

Yes, PBC's definitely are strong against assault oriented armies because they pack flamers. But thats more or less a rock to your scissors. Against a balanced archetype (or gunline) PBC's struggle much more to do anything more than block line of right, or maybe kill some frontline dudes or plink some wounds off something.

I think 180 is close honestly. Princes are strong, but not ravager squadron strong.

Martel732 wrote:
I think 180 is close honestly. Princes are strong, but not ravager squadron strong.

I agree. I do think the whole "data sheet" debacle needs sorted though, even if you never see it, its kind of cheesy that someone could run 9 demon princes if they wanted

 Zid wrote:

Karol wrote:
But they don't have to kill stuff, it is enough that you take the DP and primarch to kill some stuff, while the 100 PG move one unit at a time stalling the time. For some armies this means they may not even get to play 2 full turns if they are melee, while your scoring , getting first blood and points for slays opponents general.

PBC's are exactly that; a distraction most of the time, and they play that role well. I don't see how they're broken anymore honestly, in the old meta they were because you could have as many as you wanted. Now, being limited to three means many armies can ignore them for a turn or two (depending where they are) before they get close enough, and deal with the real threats (Demon Princes, Plaguebearers, etc.) You don't exactly see Death Guard tearing up the competitive charts, especially with IK rolling around now.

I cannot speak from experience since i have no DG in my area, but usually when something is 3x in every list, you have a problem.

Princes are largely about right - Thousand Sons princes could do with being bumped up though, as they're straight up better than all the others.
What makes the DG ones good are Relics and Traits - 2+/5++/4+++ Is pretty great, and Arch Contaminator is a great force multiplier. But that's one or two - not all of them.
Plagueburst Crawlers are almost fine - but they aren't being used as intended. They could do with a points bump and BS3+ - but increase the Plaguespitters cost too, so that build wastes the better BS and really pays for the counter-assault capability. Let them actually kill tanks with Entropy Cannons instead of failing to hit the broad side of a barn. Make them a pricey, durable Predator alternative instead of a Bloat Drone that's cheaper and significantly more durable.

 Dedwoods42 wrote:
Princes are largely about right - Thousand Sons princes could do with being bumped up though, as they're straight up better than all the others.
What makes the DG ones good are Relics and Traits - 2+/5++/4+++ Is pretty great, and Arch Contaminator is a great force multiplier. But that's one or two - not all of them.
Plagueburst Crawlers are almost fine - but they aren't being used as intended. They could do with a points bump and BS3+ - but increase the Plaguespitters cost too, so that build wastes the better BS and really pays for the counter-assault capability. Let them actually kill tanks with Entropy Cannons instead of failing to hit the broad side of a barn. Make them a pricey, durable Predator alternative instead of a Bloat Drone that's cheaper and significantly more durable.

Crappy part is BS5+ is kind of a "thing" with Demon tanks... If they would bump the BS I think you would see a huge shift toward mortar batteries.

Its BS 4+. I kinda like using it with Entropy Canons, it still does its job that way. The spitter variant could need a little nerf maybe. I dont see them putting BF 3+ on a Daemon Engine, but they could make Entropy Canons d3 shots or something like that and increase the base cost of the model.

All Daemon Engines should be WS/BS 3+ IMO. You can only play one of the CSM ones in a list effectively because you need the reroll everything stratagem to make them work.

I would like more attacks/shots on Daemon Engines much more than better BS/WS. They are raging metal beasts at the end of the day, which just go on a wild rampage on the battlefield. Big amount of unprecise dakka and flailing fits them better.

Cinderspirit wrote:
I would like more attacks/shots on Daemon Engines much more than better BS/WS. They are raging metal beasts at the end of the day, which just go on a wild rampage on the battlefield. Big amount of unprecise dakka and flailing fits them better.

That highly depends on the deamon within and the type of deamon engine.
Decimators are far more methodic in their approach then a defiler. A hellturkey behaves more like a eagle or owl then a forgefiend.