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Price drops require a lot more thought, since there are hundreds and hundreds of unused units currently. Some might come back into play just from increases on others.

Martel732 wrote:
/facepalm

Spamming is not a necessary condition; spammed units have a tendency to be too good. FW IKs are blatant outliers compared to the codex IKs.

You can tell by all the Imperial Knight lists at tournaments which use Forge World Kni- oh wait.

 akaean wrote:
From my perspective the following units need updated points cost;

Forge World:
Renegades and Heretics need to be cheaper. a Militia should be worth less than a guardsmen. He has worse armor, worse accuracy, worse leadership, and worse special rules. This can be fixed by Militia going to 3 points or Guard going to 5 points, but not both.
Hellforged Scorpius needs to be more expensive
Leviathan Dread needs to be more expensive

I'm curious as to your rationale behind the Scorpius and Leviathan points increase. I find the Scorpius to be overcosted for what it does.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The effectiveness of destroyers has nothing to do with the unit itself and everything to do with Extermination Protocols... If you're going to adjust something, it should be the cost of that stratagem, not the cost of destroyers.

Still, giving across the board nerfs to every good unit for what has turned out to be one of the worst major factions in the game is... questionable.

I tried to hit all the spammed gak. Also "go up" could mean very little. Or, like for FW IKs, could mean a LOT.

"Spammed gak"

"FW IKs"

Alright bud.

I have to agree.

It's also telling that bloof angles captain smash is spammed but missing. As are dawneagle dbags
But FW units that arn't exactlly common in top lists get hit.

Forgot BA jump capt I guess.

OH, and Bobby G. Again.

It would be nice to use some other BA character again.

The damage being done wasn't really the bad part. It was being literally forced to hurt myself against a target that was invulnerable.

The smite thing would have been one thing (although the second and third smite would have been his 4th and 5th of the turn leading to at least some negatives) and getting charged would have been another. But needing 7s to hit is just crazy. Especially to a space marine player who's best psychic power removes an enemies invuln only w/in 6 inches or might of heroes which only buffs one MODEL.

To watch a 300+ point unit kill itself with no recourse because I couldn't properly space my models 1.0001"s apart since I was on actual terrain instead of a piece of cardboard and didn't want to spend 10 minutes per unit measuring quarter of an inch variants seems silly.

The math I was shown was 9.3 mortals wounds with the smites (no increased negs for multiple smites or ability of a culexus to eat them) and solitares attacks vs the 20 mortals that I ended up taking (terrible rolling, probably should have been closer to 16 but whatever).

With all that being said, I think we can agree that nothing in the game should be at -4 to hit, ever.

Martel732 wrote:
Need to go up:



Demon princes.
Slannesh havocs.
Ahriman.
Vortex beasts.
Chaos leviathan dread
Alpha legion berserkers.

All babycarriers.

Battle sisters.
Canoness.
FW Sister transport.

Not sure they'll ever do legion or Mark specific points increase. They'll likely nerf the bajesus out of the strategem for AL and the shoot twice one.

Martel732 wrote:
Forgot BA jump capt I guess.

It's okay. I don't blame you that your entirely random, haphazard, and unjustified collection of units that you apparently picked by belomancy or something has no actual correlation with reality any better than chance would.

 chimeara wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Need to go up:



Demon princes.
Slannesh havocs.
Ahriman.
Vortex beasts.
Chaos leviathan dread
Alpha legion berserkers.

All babycarriers.

Battle sisters.
Canoness.
FW Sister transport.

Not sure they'll ever do legion or Mark specific points increase. They'll likely nerf the bajesus out of the strategem for AL and the shoot twice one.

They should, but I get you.

I'd hesitate on the BA capt because abuse of CP is what makes him work.

Without the infinite CP guard battery he loses a lot of what makes him good after one round (I think it's like 7-8 cp to make him good, 1 death visions, 2 3d6 charge, 1 extra relic, 1 d3 extra attacks, 2/3 fight again) so halfish of a "regular" armies cp.

It's the CP abuse that makes this possible more than once. But it maybe that I ran two of them and failed to get into CC for the first two games (failing 3d6 re-rollable charges of 9" twice in one game and once in the other...)

I don't think they're that good, but the spamming demands attention.

 chimeara wrote:


I'm curious as to your rationale behind the Scorpius and Leviathan points increase. I find the Scorpius to be overcosted for what it does.

Scorpius is a master of all trades type unit. The ability to double tap (for 6d3 shots), with a good profile (s6 Ap-2 2d) all while not requiring line of sight makes it a very difficult unit to counter play- especially if the user isn't brain dead and uses a screen. Even if the enemy manages to close, the Scorpius can still fight and possibly heal itself with a respectable melee attack. Its currently just a bit too cheap for the damage it can cause reliably and outside of line of sight.

the Leviathan is likewise just a bit too bulky and its wargear is a bit too good. The Grav Flux is an insane weapon, and even the Butcher Cannons are very strong. I will agree that the Leviathan is very pricey currently, but either it, or its war gear need to be hiked a little bit to more accurately represent what it is capable of. I think the space marine leviathan is in for the same treatment. The truth is, if you have a Leviathan, and you have the points, you will almost always field it instead of two or even three smaller dreads. Because the leviathan is both more durable (thanks to the invulnerable save), and has access to far superior weapons. Its probably the most overcentralized forgeworld unit currently. Leviathan (alongside Fire Raptor) is right now the poster boy for the Forgeworld still OP crowds, and it is so for a reason.

That said, lots of stuff in Forgeworld could use a serious point decrease. Titans and other super heavies are horrible after Chapter Approved 2017. a 2000 point Warhound Titan is a joke. 666 points for Zarakynel is about 100 points overpriced. Hellwright on Dark Abeyant should cost roughly 130 points (as opposed to 170 or so). Forgeworld in general needs a lot of work in price re balancing, mostly points decreases but I stand by Leviathan and Scorpius needing at least a small increase..

Upping leviathan is just a tax on the insanely good weapons.

bananathug wrote:
I'd hesitate on the BA capt because abuse of CP is what makes him work.

Without the infinite CP guard battery he loses a lot of what makes him good after one round (I think it's like 7-8 cp to make him good, 1 death visions, 2 3d6 charge, 1 extra relic, 1 d3 extra attacks, 2/3 fight again) so halfish of a "regular" armies cp.

It's the CP abuse that makes this possible more than once. But it maybe that I ran two of them and failed to get into CC for the first two games (failing 3d6 re-rollable charges of 9" twice in one game and once in the other...)

Statistics say you should make 9inchs charges almost everytime with a that level of assistance.
The CP abuse takes them to silly levels of good, but the other tactic I have seen is 3 of them and hunting in a pack 3 of them charging in with no overwatch, yeah really fun game that looked.

They always just die after one charge, but sure.

Captain smash is really good. Just remove the ignore overwatch. Ignore overwatch is the real problem - because it lets him charge things that would get him gibbed 30-40% of the time.

I'd rather keep that and pay more. Otherwise, that's like the weakest relic ever.

By paying more, I'd probably never use the guy again, but I went 20 years and never used a captain before 8th. I'm used to it. If you took away ignore overwatch, I'd still never use him more than likely.

bananathug wrote:
The damage being done wasn't really the bad part. It was being literally forced to hurt myself against a target that was invulnerable.

To watch a 300+ point unit kill itself with no recourse because I couldn't properly space my models 1.0001"s apart since I was on actual terrain instead of a piece of cardboard and didn't want to spend 10 minutes per unit measuring quarter of an inch variants seems silly.

You not understanding the rules of the game or how to play around them does not mean that the rules are unfair or unbalanced. You got hit by a model that required significant support in the form of relics, command points, and psychic powers, which is a massive commitment of resources. Sure, it sucks, it doesn't feel good, but it happens. But I don't think that's reason to sit and complain about it, let alone advocate for changing the rules of the game around it.

Martel732 wrote:
I'd rather keep that and pay more. Otherwise, that's like the weakest relic ever.

Realistically - what would you charge more for? He is overcosted to begin with - the thing is - all the strats and relics/warlord traits combine for a perfect storm of destruction.

Overwatch is the one thing that could make you think twice about taking him - because for just about every other army - charging titans with 5 wound characters doesn't work out that well.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'd rather keep that and pay more. Otherwise, that's like the weakest relic ever.

Realistically - what would you charge more for? He is overcosted to begin with - the thing is - all the strats and relics/warlord traits combine for a perfect storm of destruction.

Overwatch is the one thing that could make you think twice about taking him - because for just about every other army - charging titans with 5 wound characters doesn't work out that well.

Either change, and he's out anyway probably. It sucks throwing away a marine character or multiple marine characters because the actual assault units in the book can't do anything.

Charge more for "captain with jump pack". Leave the useless foot captain alone.

The part that I'm advocating a change for is the -4 to hit part, not the part where my guys killed themselves. In my huge list of nerfs I don't think solitare or suit of knives was on there...

 Xenomancers wrote:
Captain smash is really good. Just remove the ignore overwatch. Ignore overwatch is the real problem - because it lets him charge things that would get him gibbed 30-40% of the time.

Ignore Overwatch is the entire reason for the relic. You might as well have Alaitoc's trait become "Your army is yellow and blue" if you are going to remove relics from the game. Ignore Overwatch is why this relic exists. The charge reroll is what should go.

Guess the entirety of Slaanesh Daemons should get a 20-30% reduction in points, like they did with Wych Cult stuff. Chariots, Fiends and Seekers are a joke compared to other similiar units.

bananathug wrote:
The part that I'm advocating a change for is the -4 to hit part, not the part where my guys killed themselves. In my huge list of nerfs I don't think solitare or suit of knives was on there...

I can see a nerf to Lightning Reactions if they don't nerf - to hit in general and cap it off at -1. Lightning Reactions could be limited to just the attack that's targeting you, rather than last the entire phase.

Or, the stratagem itself could be hard-capped, like the Daemons' current +invuln save thing which can't get them to 2++. Maybe make it a maximum of -2 to hit or something so it can't be wombo-combo'd.

that -4 to hit is kind of a perfect storm though. You have to:

-Spend 2CP (a buff lasting for one phase)
-Cast a WC6 power from a psyker within 18" of your unit (this - to hit is a debuff affecting only the target unit)
-Cast a WC7 power from a psyker within 18" of the solitaire (this - to hit is a buff affecting only an Infantry unit)
-Bring in an allied craftworld detachment and succeed a WC7 18" range power (this - to hit is limited to only hit rolls in close combat made by the target unit)

Bare minimum, the combo requires the dedicated use of about 200 points of psykers, who must select all their powers essentially only for pulling off the combo (Fog of Dreams, Enhance/Drain and Veil of Tears are all considered pretty weak otherwise). Even if he succeeds at casting all the powers, and spends the strat (24.5% chance of success) then at maximum in your following shooting phase he's at -1 to hit vs any other unit that is not the one he targeted with the combo.

Forgot Greater Daemons, they are overcosted as hell as well. Somewhere about 50-100 points too much I'd guess.

Basically everything in the Ork Index needs to be reduced in points, except maybe boyz. Boyz are fine

 Billagio wrote:
Basically everything in the Ork Index needs to be reduced in points, except maybe boyz. Boyz are fine

Pfft come on just look at the deffkopta. Tell me that thing is not OP.

HA! that gave me a good chuckle

Are you saying that the -4 to hit is okay because it is hard to get or are you just pointing out that it is a rather niche case? Even an imposed -3 (not taking into account -1 to hit in melee weapons or moving and firing heavy weapons) seems like it is too much.

Reading the rest of the post it seems like we are in agreement that imposed negatives to hit should cap at -2 and should be relatively hard to get (no more than a couple units per turn/phase)?

I'd say the army wide -1 to hits should be changed to a strat. Bonuses from strats do not stack (so only 1 bonus from a strat) no stacking bonuses from powers (although they would stack with strats) and cap max neg to hit at a -2 (before attacker imposed mods like moving or unwieldy weapons)?

So you could invest strats/powers to get units to -2 and could probably do several a turn but couldn't pump all of them into one unit making it impossible to hit? Would still make that stupid solitare a -3 (-2 from him and an imposed -1, not sure if I like it but it is what it is).

If we only allowed powers to work on/with units from the same faction/keyword it would help the stacking problem (no more eldar buffs on dark eldar/harlies) but this seems like a general step to resolve a specific problem (I'm not aware of other armies where this is a problem).

Any unit that has to suffer my dice luck should receive a stiff discount lol