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except in this case you got the Custodes coming forward and saying "This is the emperor's will" Very clearly, qwith an under current of "and if you don't accept the emperor's will we're gonna consider you a traitor"

From Codex Custodes:

Through the artiface of the Martian Priesthood were these warriors created. By the graces of the almighty Emperor are they given to you now. Silence your questions and instead rejoice at the honour done to you this day. You are handed this gift of hope by the immortal master of mankind himself, and you will accept it with sincere and solemn gratitude least you be taken for the traitors that you profess to hate" - Sanash Gallimedan Emissary Imperatus to the Hammers of Dorn Chapter

- Codex CUstodea page 28

So yeah you have the Custodes (and a segment of them that are considered to be the ones who best speak for the emperor at that) outright telling people "This is the emperor's will made manifest" they're not going to question it. least the god damned Custodes declare them traitors and kill em.

 Deadshot wrote:
Except for the fact that the Emperor is a God. Trying to, or thinking to, or even contemplating the idea that geneseed could be improved is to suggest that the Emperor did a less-than-perfect job of it.

Don't forget, one of the implants Cawl uses is a half of an implant that the Primarchs have and the other half is completely unrecorded. This suggests the Emperor purged those records himself (Similar to the II and XI Legions). Furthermore, it means the Emperor COULD have given it to his Space Marines but didn't, for a reason. What Cawl is basically doing there is questioning the Emperor's decision and then going against it.

So first off, we have actual evidence that the geneseed has been tampered with in the past (the entire Lamenters chapter is based around this being a thing and their removal of the Black Rage making them super unlucky only to see them be so unlucky they got the Black Rage back anyways. So any premise of "you can't do that, it's HERESY!" is thrown out the window because it's been part of the lore for ages now.

And you're wrong about the God Maker. It's half of a Primarch organ with the other half missing and the information about what the other half was also being missing (considering the nature of the Primarchs it was likely Warp Stuff). Seriously, you're not even on the right page about what the new stuff is and trying to argue from that position is silly.

And Cawl is recorded as being someone who was involved in the Emperor's Geneseed work and there is still enough time in the Heresy for anything he does to be given the big E's permission or him to be involved in forming the Grey Knights (which could explain one of his mindwipes).

People are reaching waaaay too far to argue heresy over the geneseed when the real heresy is in things like the Cawl Inferior which Guilliman can feel is heavily warp related but can't prove it because while he's sensitive to warp energy he isn't a psyker so he can't prove that Cawl is lying about how the thing works.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Corennus wrote:
the main reason Primaris don't come with loads of options is GW don't want pure Primaris forces they want you to still buy traditional Space Marine forces with Primaris as extra.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For example Primaris lack very long range firepower so you have to bring in Preds or Devs or Dakka Dreads.

And since they can only take a Repulsor as a transport or a Land Raider Tacs have them beaten for manouverability.

Primaris have 1 year or releases compared to 30 years of Space Marines being supported. Of course Primaris are going to be more limited and unsupported by comparison. Give it a few years before we start arguing that they're not going to be fully supported like the Marines were.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Except for the fact that the Emperor is a God. Trying to, or thinking to, or even contemplating the idea that geneseed could be improved is to suggest that the Emperor did a less-than-perfect job of it.

Don't forget, one of the implants Cawl uses is a half of an implant that the Primarchs have and the other half is completely unrecorded. This suggests the Emperor purged those records himself (Similar to the II and XI Legions). Furthermore, it means the Emperor COULD have given it to his Space Marines but didn't, for a reason. What Cawl is basically doing there is questioning the Emperor's decision and then going against it.

So first off, we have actual evidence that the geneseed has been tampered with in the past (the entire Lamenters chapter is based around this being a thing and their removal of the Black Rage making them super unlucky only to see them be so unlucky they got the Black Rage back anyways. So any premise of "you can't do that, it's HERESY!" is thrown out the window because it's been part of the lore for ages now.

Just because its in the lore still doesn't mean its Heresy. And its a different situation - Lamentors are fixing a deteriorated geneseed, which is far removed from its original design and thus failing. Cawl is taking the pure origin stock and trying to make it even better. Numbers - Lamentors are trying to bring their geneseed from 60% purity to 100%, Cawl is trying to take 100% and make 150%.

And you're wrong about the God Maker. It's half of a Primarch organ with the other half missing and the information about what the other half was also being missing (considering the nature of the Primarchs it was likely Warp Stuff). Seriously, you're not even on the right page about what the new stuff is and trying to argue from that position is silly.

How am I wrong when we said the exact same thing? Its half of a Primarch organ with the info on that half missing...

All I'm saying is that the Emperor made the Immortis Gland. He designed and bioengineered the organ himself and put one into each Primarch. He could have easily put one into each Space Marine, but did not. The records were destroyed and the only person who could have destroyed them were the Emperor, or someone with his explicit permission and instruction of how to do so.

And Cawl is recorded as being someone who was involved in the Emperor's Geneseed work and there is still enough time in the Heresy for anything he does to be given the big E's permission or him to be involved in forming the Grey Knights (which could explain one of his mindwipes).

His mindwipes are exactly the reason he is committing Heresy - he can't say for certain that he DID get permission to tamper with the Emperor's sacred work, therefore he cannot justify doing so. If I tried to use that argument, it would not go well - "Well, no one said I COULDN'T alter the bank codes but I thought the bank owner would be okay or not notice."

People are reaching waaaay too far to argue heresy over the geneseed when the real heresy is in things like the Cawl Inferior which Guilliman can feel is heavily warp related but can't prove it because while he's sensitive to warp energy he isn't a psyker so he can't prove that Cawl is lying about how the thing works.

Don't even get me started on the Cawl 2, its definitely heretical. And 1 heresy means Cawl has probably committed many. Heresy is the strictest law there is and someone who plays fast and loose with the rules isn't to be trusted to follow them in other situations.

 Deadshot wrote:


Name me 1 christian who wouldn't follow Jesus' every command without hesitate

I would say most of them. God declared "Thou shall not kill", and humans have spent every day since then looking for loopholes in the commandment. Self internet can be more powerful than a Deity.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:


Name me 1 christian who wouldn't follow Jesus' every command without hesitate

I would say most of them. God declared "Thou shall not kill", and humans have spent every day since then looking for loopholes in the commandment. Self internet can be more powerful than a Deity.

Fair enough. What if, instead of "Thou shall not kill," God's Commandment was "Thou shall do what the feth I tell you to, especially killing things!"?

Whole different ballgame.

 Deadshot wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Except for the fact that the Emperor is a God. Trying to, or thinking to, or even contemplating the idea that geneseed could be improved is to suggest that the Emperor did a less-than-perfect job of it.

Don't forget, one of the implants Cawl uses is a half of an implant that the Primarchs have and the other half is completely unrecorded. This suggests the Emperor purged those records himself (Similar to the II and XI Legions). Furthermore, it means the Emperor COULD have given it to his Space Marines but didn't, for a reason. What Cawl is basically doing there is questioning the Emperor's decision and then going against it.

So first off, we have actual evidence that the geneseed has been tampered with in the past (the entire Lamenters chapter is based around this being a thing and their removal of the Black Rage making them super unlucky only to see them be so unlucky they got the Black Rage back anyways. So any premise of "you can't do that, it's HERESY!" is thrown out the window because it's been part of the lore for ages now.

Just because its in the lore still doesn't mean its Heresy. And its a different situation - Lamentors are fixing a deteriorated geneseed, which is far removed from its original design and thus failing. Cawl is taking the pure origin stock and trying to make it even better. Numbers - Lamentors are trying to bring their geneseed from 60% purity to 100%, Cawl is trying to take 100% and make 150%.
Cawl isn't trying to improve it's purity, he's trying to improve the performance levels of the Marine that it's implanted in. Making him bigger, stronger and harder to kill and the fact he succeeded proves that the limits of flesh haven't been fully reached.

And you're wrong about the God Maker. It's half of a Primarch organ with the other half missing and the information about what the other half was also being missing (considering the nature of the Primarchs it was likely Warp Stuff). Seriously, you're not even on the right page about what the new stuff is and trying to argue from that position is silly.

How am I wrong when we said the exact same thing? Its half of a Primarch organ with the info on that half missing...

All I'm saying is that the Emperor made the Immortis Gland. He designed and bioengineered the organ himself and put one into each Primarch. He could have easily put one into each Space Marine, but did not. The records were destroyed and the only person who could have destroyed them were the Emperor, or someone with his explicit permission and instruction of how to do so.
What you originally said read more like that Cawl used the other half of the gland as well and that no one knew what it was making it possible heresy, when all he did was clone the half he had and used it as an implant (and he's got cloning tech down thanks to him eating the mind of his teacher during the Heresy). And it's also possible that the records were damaged or destroyed when the Primarchs were stolen. Remember, that wasn't a quiet event, but rather one that involved a warp rift being opened in the labs.

And Cawl is recorded as being someone who was involved in the Emperor's Geneseed work and there is still enough time in the Heresy for anything he does to be given the big E's permission or him to be involved in forming the Grey Knights (which could explain one of his mindwipes).

His mindwipes are exactly the reason he is committing Heresy - he can't say for certain that he DID get permission to tamper with the Emperor's sacred work, therefore he cannot justify doing so. If I tried to use that argument, it would not go well - "Well, no one said I COULDN'T alter the bank codes but I thought the bank owner would be okay or not notice."
His mindwipes are why he doesn't know everything he's got cooking up at any given time (that and basically being a conductor of hundreds of splinters of his consciousness). Having permission when he started the project, or even permission to work on geneseed in general would have come before he forgot he was working on it. Plus with Guilliman's backing during the Scouring he had permission by the person closest to the Emperor and who represented the will of the Emperor to the rest of the Imperium. Considering the Custodian support in 40k now Cawl has gotten retroactive permission from the Emperor at least to upgrade the Marines.

People are reaching waaaay too far to argue heresy over the geneseed when the real heresy is in things like the Cawl Inferior which Guilliman can feel is heavily warp related but can't prove it because while he's sensitive to warp energy he isn't a psyker so he can't prove that Cawl is lying about how the thing works.

Don't even get me started on the Cawl 2, its definitely heretical. And 1 heresy means Cawl has probably committed many. Heresy is the strictest law there is and someone who plays fast and loose with the rules isn't to be trusted to follow them in other situations.
Oh I agree he's likely walking a fine line between loyalist and heretek, but geneseed isn't likely the place he's doing it (as long as he leaves that traitor and lost primarch stuff alone, but seeing as the Imperium may have used it in the past it's possible he didn't leave it alone eaither leading to him having used it before Guilliman woke up to tell him not too.

Replies in yellow because I hate mucking with quote tags in the morning.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Snip.

I agree with most of what you say, on a technical basis I disagree but the parts I disagree on are semantics and technicalities and not enough to actually argue over. What I refute is the statement that he is trying to improve the Marine, not the geneseed.

It essentially amounts to the same thing that Fabius Bile does. Both are basically saying "its good, but could be better." True, because obviously there are Bile's enhanced and Cawl's Primaris, but in both cases, they are saying the Emperor's work was not perfect, which is a crime and a heresy in of itself.

You also further prove my point that Cawl and the Lamentors is not the same. As I said, the Lamentors are simply restoring their geneseed to its original state, where Cawl is inventing new stuff to make Space Marines better still.

 Deadshot wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Snip.

I agree with most of what you say, on a technical basis I disagree but the parts I disagree on are semantics and technicalities and not enough to actually argue over. What I refute is the statement that he is trying to improve the Marine, not the geneseed.

It essentially amounts to the same thing that Fabius Bile does. Both are basically saying "its good, but could be better." True, because obviously there are Bile's enhanced and Cawl's Primaris, but in both cases, they are saying the Emperor's work was not perfect, which is a crime and a heresy in of itself.

You also further prove my point that Cawl and the Lamentors is not the same. As I said, the Lamentors are simply restoring their geneseed to its original state, where Cawl is inventing new stuff to make Space Marines better still.

Cawl isn't sticking daemon stuff into a human body with geneseed and calling it an Astartes though. He's using information he's gained from working with the Emperor paired with presumably a lot of trial and error. I've got some headcanon rolling around that he may have used some of the casualties during the Scouring to test his Furnance implant (like say some of the Imperial Fists who were "rescued" by the Ultramarines post Iron Cage) to fine tune it so it didn't just cause massive tumors by the unchecked cell growth.

And while you want to claim heresy, again LAMENTERS, BLACK DRAGONS and FIRE FALCONS are proof that the Mechanicus will try ANYTHING to get more mileage out of the Astartes. Cawl's acts aren't new and for all we know are sanctioned. You're imposing rules where the lore doesn't explicitly state there ever were any rules. In fact, the lore apparently disagrees with you but you want to head canon that it's the way you see it instead of admitting that the game has always had the Mechanicus being the mad scientists of the Imperium who often much about with what they don't understand. Hell, some might even consider Cawl's work an Omnissiah driven extension of the original project instead of foul tampering.

And the Lamenters were not restoring the geneseed to it's original state. If they wanted to do that they could have used the original geneseed in the vaults of Terra as a starting point. No, something was done to that geneseed to try and "fix" it. Just using the original geneseed wouldn't have made people naturally dislike them upon meeting them or plague them with an almost supernatural level of bad luck (traits shared with the Afriel Strain project which tried to tamper with humanity to artificially uplift them but somehow made them as disliked as Pariahs and unluckier than a Bad Luck Brian meme).

I get it, you REALLY want Cawl's work to be heresy, but the heresy isn't in the new implants as much as what he likely did to make them work, or what he does with traitor geneseed when Guilliman isn't watching. Hell even the Emperor needed to make a deal with the ruinous powers to properly make the Primarchs (which is likely why Bile's clones were failures, they didn't have that warp stuff the Primarchs need to work properly) and it wouldn't shock me if Cawl had to walk a similar path to get the god maker working in the base marines.

But no, we have no actual evidence in the lore that doing anything to fix the geneseed is any kind of heresy. So leave the geneseed itself alone and look more on how Cawl achieves his end goals: by any means necessary (Cawl Inferior being a prime example, as is having deals with Eldar and possibly even Necrons). The Custodes have already vetted the project as being approved by the Big E himself (even if it was done retroactively) but we have yet to know how Cawl actually completed that project or managed to add new implants without interfering with old ones. The heresy isn't the end product, it's in how we GOT to the end product.

fact of the matter is it's not heresy if it's ruled ok by god. And given youb have Gulliman and the Custodes saying the Primaris Marines are a gift of the emperor, means they are saying "this is ok by God" this isn't the first time a Primarch has upgraded marines BTW, Corax did something similer during the heresy and the only problem was the Alpha Legion messed it up. In fact, the big thing of Corax's experiment was to incorperate Primarch DNA, specificly the part that aided Primarch growth into a marine... which implies he, presumably, sued the exact same implant Cawl did.

Cawl every likely simply took what Corax did during the Heresy and fixed the problems.

Am I the only one wondering how this has anything to do with a lack of wargear options?

Because Primaris Marines are fixing the problem DoW3 faced: it's playerbase thinks options are cool and relatively stable lore is interesting. They're fixing it by making everything about the tabletop match that game, so that that game will be awesome!

Bharring wrote:
Because Primaris Marines are fixing the problem DoW3 faced: it's playerbase thinks options are cool and relatively stable lore is interesting. They're fixing it by making everything about the tabletop match that game, so that that game will be awesome!

DOW3's problem was they tried to make it into a MOBA and then forgot most if not all MOBA's are F2P

Lemondish wrote:
Am I the only one wondering how this has anything to do with a lack of wargear options?

No. A lot of what is going on here seems like it is fit for discussion on the game lore and background of 40k.

Hopefully as 40k is reaching the end of the Codex cycle we may see GW do more campaign and time line advancements... which would be a great place for a 'second wave' of Primaris Marines.

 stonehorse wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
Am I the only one wondering how this has anything to do with a lack of wargear options?

No. A lot of what is going on here seems like it is fit for discussion on the game lore and background of 40k.

Hopefully as 40k is reaching the end of the Codex cycle we may see GW do more campaign and time line advancements... which would be a great place for a 'second wave' of Primaris Marines.

I just assumed they were intrinsically related in a way that went over my head, lol

Agreed on your second point. Rumours were also pointing to a refreshed Space Marine codex in early 2019. We'll see...

Lemondish wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
Am I the only one wondering how this has anything to do with a lack of wargear options?

No. A lot of what is going on here seems like it is fit for discussion on the game lore and background of 40k.

Hopefully as 40k is reaching the end of the Codex cycle we may see GW do more campaign and time line advancements... which would be a great place for a 'second wave' of Primaris Marines.

I just assumed they were intrinsically related in a way that went over my head, lol

Agreed on your second point. Rumours were also pointing to a refreshed Space Marine codex in early 2019. We'll see...

sounds more like wishful thinking IMHO. most of what Space Marines could use would really just be something easily FAQed or chapter approved. unless they're planning on A: re-writing strats. B: releasing a ton of new Primaris in early 2019 and thus plan on a "primaris wave 2 edition" of the SM codex.