Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 General Malarky wrote:
Are Orks doing so well in tournaments because people show up with green carpets with more wounds than can be shot out in a game, as well as drawing out the game's duration to prevent subsequent turns from happening while also controlling points by sheer volume that the opponent cannot even hope to compete?

Cos that sounds like what they are supposed to be doing and that is dirty fething pool.

Also, it would invalidate them being considered "a strong force" because they are ruining the fun of the game in exchange for an easy win.

Most ork lists doing well in tournaments are those who just shoot their enemies to bits with lootas, planes and/or mek guns. They have about as many close combat elements in their lists as your average eldar, chaos or imperial army.

 Jidmah wrote:

 General Malarky wrote:
Are Orks doing so well in tournaments because people show up with green carpets with more wounds than can be shot out in a game, as well as drawing out the game's duration to prevent subsequent turns from happening while also controlling points by sheer volume that the opponent cannot even hope to compete?

Cos that sounds like what they are supposed to be doing and that is dirty fething pool.

Also, it would invalidate them being considered "a strong force" because they are ruining the fun of the game in exchange for an easy win.

Most ork lists doing well in tournaments are those who just shoot their enemies to bits with lootas, planes and/or mek guns. They have about as many close combat elements in their lists as your average eldar, chaos or imperial army.

Sure. I mean, if you look at the actual ork roster, like in terms of numbers of units, there are more units that primarily do their damage through shooting in the ork codex than there are units that primarily do damage through melee. Ork shooting for the first time I can remember is not just unusably horrendous and units like mek gunz, SAGs, Dakkajets and Lootas are definitely something you can stick onto the primary ork core of da jump boyz+gretchin+weirdboyz and a killa klawboss and do really well.

...You can also do really well with a list like Simon Priddis' at the bad moon GT, which added additional fast and deep strike units to turn that ork core into a powerful alpha strike list. Or Charles Arnett who won the Konrad Curze GT on may 30th with more of a green tide.

Orks since the codex have succeeded with deathstar shooting lists, MSU shooting lists, Flyer lists, MSU mobile scoring lists, alpha strike lists, and horde lists. Pure mechanized is pretty much the only thing I haven't seen, but that's not an ork problem, that's an 8th problem, basically nobody does mechanized lists outside of drukhari venomspam.

Bringing up the particular point that the tournament meta has rotated to at this instant is fairly counterproductive on a post talking about someone struggling to win games in a casual club environment. The only reason I bring up Steve's adepticon list is to demonstrate that the moping due to having a poor model pool is fairly unjustified, because a list that looks extremely close to malarky's collection did perform extremely well at one of the biggest 40k GT's in existence (and also, incidentally, one of the ones that functions the closest to the basic eternal war missions the OP says he plays).

The difference between where the OP is at now and Steve Pampreen is not the difference between OP's current list and an optimized list where instead of a KFF in mega armor he's got a KFF on a bike, and instead of a warboss on foot in a transport he's got a warboss on bike, and instead of Wartrakks he's got slightly more efficient big shoota deffcoptas. It's how he's playing the models. And that's good! That's what everyone should hope for when making a post like this - that the models you have are decent, you have the tools to approximate the structure of a competitive list, and the primary thing you can do to improve the number of games you win is learning how to play that list.

I have a 2k list that brings 2 Morkanauts and a Gorkanaut, supported by 72 shoota boys (one trukk), 30 gretchen, warboss w/ relic klaw (optional), SSAG, 2 weirdboys, 3 mek gunz.

I have tabled tyranid and marine players without loosing a unit, or if I do it is the gretchen units.

It performs very well short of facing knight lists, and I haven't gotten the opportunity to fight the Dominus class yet either. (I don't think anyone in my store owns one)

and yes it is mostly shooty but can switch it up and melee in a pinch if needed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also It does go back to what missions you are playing. The CA 2018 book has the best missions by far. They are typically missions where you cap VP at the end of every battle round instead of at the end of the game. In addition If you can place them in the neutral zone and force your opponent to have to come forward that is better.

Lastly these missions remove the rule that says the game is over if you get tabled. This can allow you to cap objectives and if you get far enough ahead your opponent can't catch up as they got too focused on killing models.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 General Malarky wrote:
Are Orks doing so well in tournaments because people show up with green carpets with more wounds than can be shot out in a game, as well as drawing out the game's duration to prevent subsequent turns from happening while also controlling points by sheer volume that the opponent cannot even hope to compete?

Cos that sounds like what they are supposed to be doing and that is dirty fething pool.

Also, it would invalidate them being considered "a strong force" because they are ruining the fun of the game in exchange for an easy win.

Most ork lists doing well in tournaments are those who just shoot their enemies to bits with lootas, planes and/or mek guns. They have about as many close combat elements in their lists as your average eldar, chaos or imperial army.

Sure. I mean, if you look at the actual ork roster, like in terms of numbers of units, there are more units that primarily do their damage through shooting in the ork codex than there are units that primarily do damage through melee. Ork shooting for the first time I can remember is not just unusably horrendous and units like mek gunz, SAGs, Dakkajets and Lootas are definitely something you can stick onto the primary ork core of da jump boyz+gretchin+weirdboyz and a killa klawboss and do really well.

...You can also do really well with a list like Simon Priddis' at the bad moon GT, which added additional fast and deep strike units to turn that ork core into a powerful alpha strike list. Or Charles Arnett who won the Konrad Curze GT on may 30th with more of a green tide.

Simon Priddis was running a green tide with a good part of the tide being rokkit-propelled. He as almost twice as many wounds as OP in his list and much more speed.
Charles Armett still had a pretty shooty list - 3 SAGs, 4 Mek guns and koptas to complete his brigade. He brought 120 boyz, 3 MANz(objective squatters) and Mad Dok, so his list is pretty choppy for ork standards, but still relies on shooty elements to clear out threats and deep strikes to keep his boyz safe.

Orks since the codex have succeeded with deathstar shooting lists, MSU shooting lists, Flyer lists, MSU mobile scoring lists, alpha strike lists, and horde lists.

Lootaz, SAG, mek guns and planes basically all are the same archetype "shooty orks" that combines with the core you mentioned and usually those lists have either kommandoz, koptas or MANz sprinkled in for objective squatting.
Green tide is another archetype that we all know well enough and no one likes playing.
I can't remember anything outside of those two archetypes placing well this year.

Bringing up the particular point that the tournament meta has rotated to at this instant is fairly counterproductive on a post talking about someone struggling to win games in a casual club environment. The only reason I bring up Steve's adepticon list is to demonstrate that the moping due to having a poor model pool is fairly unjustified, because a list that looks extremely close to malarky's collection did perform extremely well at one of the biggest 40k GT's in existence (and also, incidentally, one of the ones that functions the closest to the basic eternal war missions the OP says he plays).

Even in casual games orks with great shooting capabilities will do much better than those just running at your enemy. Your best-of-box-sets primaris army operated by semi-decent general will murder an ork army just running at them, which is pretty much what he has now.
So yes, he has a great collection to start from, but without adding some firepower, I don't see his small number of footslogging orks getting into combat. And by adding firepower he will move towards the kind of list he wants to play anyways.

The difference between where the OP is at now and Steve Pampreen is not the difference between OP's current list and an optimized list where instead of a KFF in mega armor he's got a KFF on a bike, and instead of a warboss on foot in a transport he's got a warboss on bike, and instead of Wartrakks he's got slightly more efficient big shoota deffcoptas. It's how he's playing the models. And that's good! That's what everyone should hope for when making a post like this - that the models you have are decent, you have the tools to approximate the structure of a competitive list, and the primary thing you can do to improve the number of games you win is learning how to play that list.

IMO the difference is that Steve is bringing three smashas and 15 lootas with a grot screen. Being able to destroy one or two anti-infantry units in turn one makes all the difference between getting into combat and dying on the way there.

Sure, that is a difference. And I'm not trying to discount that. But the hyperfocus on the list to the exclusion of all other factors in internet discourse surrounding 40k continues to boggle my mind when people at the local club level continue to make fundamental gameplay mistakes and don't fix them."Never externalize" is a mantra of good professional scenes of any activity I've ever been a part of that involves inherent randomness and imbalance. If you want to get better at something, you have to pretend (yes, pretend, it is definitely not the case) that external factors don't exist). That allows you to isolate the correct choice from the outcome - because if you make decisions that give you a 75% chance of winning and you lose....you still made the right decision. And maybe you made a decision that gave you a 10% chance of winning and you won.

We don't know much about the details of the games OP is playing and losing, but we know enough to see which direction we should go in advice. He references Skarboyz, says Evil Sunz benefit isn't big because it only gives you a couple extra inches of movement, doesn't realize he can Tellyport multiple things, doesn't know what three-pointing is, says Da Jump is bad because it's unreliable since you might fail the cast roll...that's all indicative of a fundamental misunderstanding of how a competitive ork list is supposed to operate.

I can't tell you how many people I play against who are running netlists and don't know how to adapt to even the smallest change in their gameplan. I played against someone with a guilliguns list who had two quad lascannon contemptor dreads as a main source of anti tank, and I hid anything with a vehicle in such a way that they'd have to move to see their targets, just to force a slight reduction in accuracy. My opponent pumped 8 lascannon shots into a chaff unit instead. On turn 2, guilliman just walked out of formation and straight into charge range of some aberrants to kill a Kelermorph - cue complaining about dice rolls the next turn when he died to shooting, got back up, and immediately died to shooting again by failing his first couple invuln save rolls against the aberrants hammers.

On one hand, the conversation about tactics doesn't go anywhere because so much of tactical analysis is covered by the point of view of someone who more often than not just wants commiseration, so tries to paint the scenario as unfairly as possible. List discussion is far easier because we can say "OK, what do you have? This this and this are more efficient than that that and that." And you're right - the way a lot of competitive lists are set up now, he likely would be somewhat more efficient including enough firepower to down an anti-infantry shooting threat before his chargers tried to get their business on.

But on the other, the constant focus on list uber alles creates a truly depressing sense of fatalism among so much of the IRL community of the game that just poisons any and all fun. You can have a club of people with nowhere near tournament level lists, and someone at almost no strategic disadvantage versus the rest of the group complaining because "The internet says melee is unviable".

the_scotsman wrote:
You can have a club of people with nowhere near tournament level lists, and someone at almost no strategic disadvantage versus the rest of the group complaining because "The internet says melee is unviable".

Is there a clapping emoticon? There should be a clapping emoticon. Because you earned it here.

Exactly - people are just talking lists and arguing whether stuff is viable or not when the difference between "so OP, must ban" and "so bad, please fix!" is really really small. Yes, a "tourney winning Ork list is all boys or all mech" is a valid opinion, but the OP isn't losing all the time at the local club because everyone there only brings the very best lists in the game, but rather because he likely doesn't understand how you can play better. General Malarky needs to stop failing with the same tactics and start being more cunning. There's a lot of big Orks out there, but Thraka didn't get to be the biggest because he just smashed harder, it's also because he smashed SMART'a! Why else would he keep around Orkimedes?

I don't think melee is unviable. Not in the least. Between avoiding getting shot, locking down hard-hitting units, and avoiding a lot of the -1s around these days, it's really good. But it requires more careful play than shooting, even in casual. And, depending on your opponent's army and what you're charging with, you have to be willing to accept that you're gonna lose models. If you can't or won't strategize about how you go into CC, or can't deal with casualties, you're better off sticking with a ranged army that spends it's time hunkered down in cover.

Melle is kind of a joke how good it is now. You cant walk 6" move melle units up the table. No - that's unviable. When you can Dajump a 30 man unit with almost auto pass regularity with a reroll charge of an 8 - double move shinning spears - or even nob bikers doing the same thing. Melle is an unavoidable thorn in your ass. It's basically autoloss for some armies against these melle gimicks. If basically forces you to bring 400 points of chaff every game to even compete.

 Yarium wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
You can have a club of people with nowhere near tournament level lists, and someone at almost no strategic disadvantage versus the rest of the group complaining because "The internet says melee is unviable".

Is there a clapping emoticon? There should be a clapping emoticon. Because you earned it here.

Exactly - people are just talking lists and arguing whether stuff is viable or not when the difference between "so OP, must ban" and "so bad, please fix!" is really really small. Yes, a "tourney winning Ork list is all boys or all mech" is a valid opinion, but the OP isn't losing all the time at the local club because everyone there only brings the very best lists in the game, but rather because he likely doesn't understand how you can play better. General Malarky needs to stop failing with the same tactics and start being more cunning. There's a lot of big Orks out there, but Thraka didn't get to be the biggest because he just smashed harder, it's also because he smashed SMART'a! Why else would he keep around Orkimedes?

I disagree with you both to some extent. Yes, a good list does not make you win games, but a bad list almost certainly makes you lose them.

I have had multiple crushing wins with my Death Guard against many opponents just because they though eight single-shot anti-tank weapons are plenty to stop anything coming their way. Good look trying to stop Mortarion, two PBC, five blightlords, a damon prince and two drones with that. Of course, OP Mortarion is at fault, not the guy bringing knives to a gunfight.

Orks are a very unforgiving army, you have no serious way of mitigating damage, like death guard with their DR, dameons and knights with their invulnerable saves or eldar with their -1 to hit, so your stuff is simply going to die when it is shot at. The only way to prevent that from happening is shooting the dangerous stuff off the board to reduce the damage taken. Failing to do that, no ork army will survive the game unless it brings more bodies than the enemy has bullets, and even then it can be close.

So it's not a question of competitive or not. Any ork army worth anything needs to bring shooting options to take out threats turn one or they are going to be stomped flat into the ground. It doesn't need to be top competitive choices like lootas or mek guns, but at the very least there should be a trukk full of tank bustas, a naut, a burna bommer and a couple of anti-tank buggies in your list somewhere. If you ignore sluggas, shootas and stikkbomms, his entire collection's shooting is basically 16 big shoota equivalent weapons and 13 rokkits - he can't even kill a single rhino out in the open without any protection whatsoever, let a lone a predator, LRBT or a knight. If the opponent just sits there and shoots all of his 1500/2000 points at whatever orks are closest he has a decent chance of winning the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Melle is kind of a joke how good it is now. You cant walk 6" move melle units up the table. No - that's unviable. When you can Dajump a 30 man unit with almost auto pass regularity with a reroll charge of an 8 - double move shinning spears - or even nob bikers doing the same thing. Melle is an unavoidable thorn in your ass. It's basically autoloss for some armies against these melle gimicks. If basically forces you to bring 400 points of chaff every game to even compete.

Sorry, but did you just seriously compare shining spears to nob bikers?

 Jidmah wrote:

 Yarium wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
You can have a club of people with nowhere near tournament level lists, and someone at almost no strategic disadvantage versus the rest of the group complaining because "The internet says melee is unviable".

Is there a clapping emoticon? There should be a clapping emoticon. Because you earned it here.

Exactly - people are just talking lists and arguing whether stuff is viable or not when the difference between "so OP, must ban" and "so bad, please fix!" is really really small. Yes, a "tourney winning Ork list is all boys or all mech" is a valid opinion, but the OP isn't losing all the time at the local club because everyone there only brings the very best lists in the game, but rather because he likely doesn't understand how you can play better. General Malarky needs to stop failing with the same tactics and start being more cunning. There's a lot of big Orks out there, but Thraka didn't get to be the biggest because he just smashed harder, it's also because he smashed SMART'a! Why else would he keep around Orkimedes?

I disagree with you both to some extent. Yes, a good list does not make you win games, but a bad list almost certainly makes you lose them.

I have had multiple crushing wins with my Death Guard against many opponents just because they though eight single-shot anti-tank weapons are plenty to stop anything coming their way. Good look trying to stop Mortarion, two PBC, five blightlords, a damon prince and two drones with that. Of course, OP Mortarion is at fault, not the guy bringing knives to a gunfight.

Orks are a very unforgiving army, you have no serious way of mitigating damage, like death guard with their DR, dameons and knights with their invulnerable saves or eldar with their -1 to hit, so your stuff is simply going to die when it is shot at. The only way to prevent that from happening is shooting the dangerous stuff off the board to reduce the damage taken. Failing to do that, no ork army will survive the game unless it brings more bodies than the enemy has bullets, and even then it can be close.

So it's not a question of competitive or not. Any ork army worth anything needs to bring shooting options to take out threats turn one or they are going to be stomped flat into the ground. It doesn't need to be top competitive choices like lootas or mek guns, but at the very least there should be a trukk full of tank bustas, a naut, a burna bommer and a couple of anti-tank buggies in your list somewhere. If you ignore sluggas, shootas and stikkbomms, his entire collection's shooting is basically 16 big shoota equivalent weapons and 13 rokkits - he can't even kill a single rhino out in the open without any protection whatsoever, let a lone a predator, LRBT or a knight. If the opponent just sits there and shoots all of his 1500/2000 points at whatever orks are closest he has a decent chance of winning the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Melle is kind of a joke how good it is now. You cant walk 6" move melle units up the table. No - that's unviable. When you can Dajump a 30 man unit with almost auto pass regularity with a reroll charge of an 8 - double move shinning spears - or even nob bikers doing the same thing. Melle is an unavoidable thorn in your ass. It's basically autoloss for some armies against these melle gimicks. If basically forces you to bring 400 points of chaff every game to even compete.

Sorry, but did you just seriously compare shining spears to nob bikers?

They are similar. Obviously spears are better but in terms of unavoidable CC threats are on turn 1. Nob bikers are on that list. Plus they can fight again - Spears can't do that anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Like between a huge nob biker unit. Da jump a huge unit. Storm boys super move. Orks can assault you with about 50% of their armor turn 1.

At the very least they have forced you to deploy like a bonehead. Orks just have way too many stupid tools to increase their mobility. Plus 5+ invo bubbles in a army that pays only for a 6+ save on the regular and most of their guns have multiple shots to make up for their poor BS so on average they hit about the same as other shooting armies BUT they can also roll like gods and kill way to much for their points.

FOR THE RECORD: I only have a tablet (no PC), so all of your abbreviations are lost on me, as I can not see what they mean.

Was poking through battlescribe's list of Heavy Support, for Orks and happened upon the Big Trakk. I had an old 1:35 Panther Ausf D that now has a Big Zappa on it.

Played a Capture The Relic game today against 1950 points of Space Marines lead by Shrike(?) and got my first real win. It is like all the good luck I had been missing out on decided to show up. I rolled 11 for the Big Zappa's damage two turns in a row and melted a pair of Venerable Dreads. Managed to Da Jump a unit of GRETCHIN in to his back rank and kept them tied up for a turn. My Nobz got a hold of the Relic and beat his Marines over the head with it. He had DS'd Shrike and his other Jump Infantry in to my flank and shot the wrong unit (admittedly wiping my Shoota Boyz, but there was a squad of 30 Boyz in charge range, too) and failed to wipe the squad of 30 in melee (who popped back up on the other side of the board and ate all the fire, saving my Nobz from being plasma'd)

So, yeah, got my first win. Here is the list I had used. I did not Flank or Deep Strike with anything.


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Orks) [49 PL, 7CP, 905pts] ++

Clan Kultur: Goffs

+ HQ +

Warboss: Attack Squig, Da Killa Klaw, Follow me Ladz!, Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw, Warlord
Got to squish da puny Shrike wif Da Killa Klaw. Mostly because his rolling with his snipers was ass-tastic.

Weirdboy: 4. Fists of Gork, 5. Da Krunch, Warphead
Da Krunch and Smites on the Scouts all game until a perils (and the subsequent re-roll still dropping a 1, so Perils did go off) kersploeded 'is 'ed.

+ Troops +

Boyz: 3x Tankbusta Bombs
. Boss Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. 29x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa
These Boyz mostly ate wounds, even after Green Tide. But those were wounds not attributed to other units, like my Nobz.

Boyz: 2x Tankbusta Bombs
. Boss Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. 19x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa
Protected with Grot Shields and managed to survive to turn 5, as a result.

Boyz
. Boss Nob: Choppa, Kombi-Skorcha
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. 17x Ork Boy W/ Shoota
Shot their shootas at things, but mostly absorbed wounds.

+ Elites +

Nobz
. Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Big Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Big Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Power Klaw, Slugga
. Nob: Power Klaw, Slugga
. Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Choppa, Slugga
Grabbed the Relic, after the Gretchin dropped it, and proceeded to beat several shades of gak out of Marines with it. Nearly lost the game, as they were in the opposing deployment zone all alone by the end of turn 5 with some Marines nearby. The dice were in my favour, though.

Painboy: Power Klaw
Succumbed to sniper fire by turn 3, after healing himself back to full twice.

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Orks) [59 PL, 5CP, 1,020pts] ++

Clan Kultur: Goffs

+ HQ +

Big Mek in Mega Armour: Kombi-Rokkit, Kustom Force Field, Power Klaw
KFF came in handy, otherwise did not a heck of a lot.

Weirdboy: 3. Da Jump
Remembered to stay in range for bonuses when manifesting Da Jump, this time around!

+ Troops +

Gretchin
. 20x Gretchin
Da Jumped on turn 1 (I remembered to keep Boyz around for the bonus on manifesting the power, this time)

Gretchin
. 20x Gretchin
Victim of effective use of Grot Shields. Enough survived to capture the Relic the next turn.

Gretchin
. 10x Gretchin
More victims of Grot Shields, same turn, same target. There were no survivors.

+ Elites +

Meganobz
. Boss Meganob w/ PK: Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw
. Meganob W/ PK: Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw
. Meganob W/ PK: Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw
. Meganob W/ PK: Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw
Mostly rode around in a Trukk, shooting at things with minimal effect.

Tankbustas
. 6x Tankbusta: 6x Rokkit Launcha
Rode in the Big Trakk. Did a couple wounds of damage and then melted in a hail of plasma on turn 3.

+ Fast Attack +

Warbikers
. Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Slugga
. 4x Warbiker: 4x Stikkbombs
Expensive wound sponge. I could have positioned them better, but my Shootas unit survived another round, as a result.

Wartrakk (Index)
. Wartrakk: Twin Big Shoota
. Wartrakk: Twin Big Shoota
Scooted around and provided covering fire that hit nothing (I do not think more than 1 wound got through +/++, all game. But they looked great doing it! (I think these guys are under-rated as a sort of cheap fast support unit, with their flanking and wounds)

+ Heavy Support +

Big Trakk: Big Zzappa, Grot Riggers, Grot Sponson

+ Dedicated Transport +

Trukk: Big Shoota
Beep! Beep!

I am sticking with Goffs until I get more familiar and comfortable with the rules and all the stats. It is a dirt simple to remember kultur and I do not feel right not playing my list as WYSIWYG. I tried Deathskullz once and may as well have been not running a kultur for how much I remembered to use it.

I like having a bit of variety in my list because I know I get bored easily. At 2000 points I am going to be spread thin, but smaller games will afford me a lot of flexibility in making a list that will be fun to play and play against. It is not only my fun that I am concerned with (and this is not my first mention of such)

I would like to point out there was 1 point from the OP that bothered me. He had mentioned that he didn't want to run his list as Evil sunz because he had mainly infantry and that wasn't indicative of an evil sunz list.

Get over that. If you are losing, then play whatever kultur is going to help you win. It doesn't matter if they are all painted Goffs either, Tell your opponent they are deathskulls this game and use the kultur.
You don't have to be so rigid to the lore that you impact the fun you are having. Most people besides major tournaments don't even fully acknowledge Wysiwyg either. Try stuff out. Say slugga boys are shoota boys for a game.
You need to try things out especially if you want to start earning W's. I say earning because that's what you are gonna have to do with Orks. Theres nothing you can really play with them thats going to make the win come easily.

I'm 100% curious as to what Xeno's local meta must be like if he feels Orkz are too strong. Like, I was gonna argue about how complaining about having to take chaff to protect against melee is as silly as complaining about having to take AT to deal with Heavies, but honestly? I don't know what he's been through. Maybe Orkz are routinely dominating his matches. He'd have very valid complaints then, though I doubt the majority of players would share them. Even the most stringent Ork supporter is only gonna day Orkz are the best Mono Army, and most folks place them outside of the top 3.

 flandarz wrote:
I'm 100% curious as to what Xeno's local meta must be like if he feels Orkz are too strong. Like, I was gonna argue about how complaining about having to take chaff to protect against melee is as silly as complaining about having to take AT to deal with Heavies, but honestly? I don't know what he's been through. Maybe Orkz are routinely dominating his matches. He'd have very valid complaints then, though I doubt the majority of players would share them. Even the most stringent Ork supporter is only gonna day Orkz are the best Mono Army, and most folks place them outside of the top 3.

Definitely outside top 3. knight/guard soup, GSC and DE are above them. Chaos with the new codex has been doing well too, although not sure if better than Orks. In terms of mono codex, do DE lists and GSC count? I figured they were better mono codices but idk if people are using nids in the GSC.

Xenomancers, just to let you know - Nob Bikers can move again at the end of the shooting phase for 1CP but they can't Charge afterwards and they can't fight twice because they don't have the Infantry keyword. Stormboyz also can't Advance and Charge without a Warboss, they had that Ability in the Index but lost it in the Codex. I agree with you that Orks have a lot of speed and mobility when built for it though, I just wanted to clarify those points.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Sorry, but did you just seriously compare shining spears to nob bikers?

They are similar. Obviously spears are better but in terms of unavoidable CC threats are on turn 1. Nob bikers are on that list. Plus they can fight again - Spears can't do that anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Like between a huge nob biker unit. Da jump a huge unit. Storm boys super move. Orks can assault you with about 50% of their armor turn 1.

At the very least they have forced you to deploy like a bonehead. Orks just have way too many stupid tools to increase their mobility. Plus 5+ invo bubbles in a army that pays only for a 6+ save on the regular and most of their guns have multiple shots to make up for their poor BS so on average they hit about the same as other shooting armies BUT they can also roll like gods and kill way to much for their points.

You might want to actually flip through an ork codex before you go on spouting even more nonsense about how orks work in your imagination.

More than half of the stuff you just wrote in that post is flat out wrong.

What do you say? Does this qualify as (at least the starting of) a Big Trakk with Big Zappa?

(Sorry about the potato)

2 things. First: congrats in your first win. The first of many, I hope. Second: you got a good start going there with the Trakk.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Sorry, but did you just seriously compare shining spears to nob bikers?

They are similar. Obviously spears are better but in terms of unavoidable CC threats are on turn 1. Nob bikers are on that list. Plus they can fight again - Spears can't do that anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Like between a huge nob biker unit. Da jump a huge unit. Storm boys super move. Orks can assault you with about 50% of their armor turn 1.

At the very least they have forced you to deploy like a bonehead. Orks just have way too many stupid tools to increase their mobility. Plus 5+ invo bubbles in a army that pays only for a 6+ save on the regular and most of their guns have multiple shots to make up for their poor BS so on average they hit about the same as other shooting armies BUT they can also roll like gods and kill way to much for their points.

You might want to actually flip through an ork codex before you go on spouting even more nonsense about how orks work in your imagination.

More than half of the stuff you just wrote in that post is flat out wrong.

Hes just salty marines aren't generally OP OP like they are supposedly in the fluff, given how much he complains about guard I'm not surprised he's whinging about Orks too.

 flandarz wrote:
I'm 100% curious as to what Xeno's local meta must be like if he feels Orkz are too strong. Like, I was gonna argue about how complaining about having to take chaff to protect against melee is as silly as complaining about having to take AT to deal with Heavies, but honestly? I don't know what he's been through. Maybe Orkz are routinely dominating his matches. He'd have very valid complaints then, though I doubt the majority of players would share them. Even the most stringent Ork supporter is only gonna day Orkz are the best Mono Army, and most folks place them outside of the top 3.

I think it's a case of smartly applied model count more than any ting else. If Orks are playing a silly SM gunline and just bottle them up and get stuck in the that's that. But that comes more down to the match up and ...lack of experience of the other player, seems to me. I only know 2 of the Ork players that are active in his area haven't ever played them so I can't say much on that but I am sure there are a few more I haven't met I only frequent one of the shops. They seem like really nice ladz though.

You should at least know what you are talking about before complaining.

1) Nob bikers are a terrible, terrible unit that is almost twice as much points per model than shining spears and worse in every possible way.
2) Only ork infantry can fight twice
3) Huge nob biker units charging turn one are a minimum investment of 479 points (10 nobz+warboss) and 3 CP for that stunt, with at least two nob bikers not getting to fight as they need to bridge the gap to the warbosses's aura. Magnus warp-timing himself and crushing a unit of his choice is cheaper (CP and points), does more damage and is more durable. And sees zero play because he is bad.
4) Storm boyz cannot assault after getting their "super move" without a nearby warboss - with the same "super move" being available to space marine bikers, except they don't suffer casualties from it. Nerf please.
5) Ork armor that can pull off any remotely reliable assault turn one would be limited to the deffkilla wartrike and vehicles that somehow managed to keep pace with its 20" move (evil suns relic bonebreaka?). Only one ramming speed per turn makes this strategy more "one armored unit" rather than "50% of their armor".
6) Bubble wrapping is not "deploying like a bonehead", not bubble wrapping is.
7) Right now the most common save characteristic in the ork army 4+, 6+ is limited to boyz, burnas, lootas, tank bustas, gretchin and a few characters
8) Outside of two or three exceptions orks weapons do not have more shots than their imperial or chaos counterparts and usually cost more points and have less range than those.

To sum it up, Xenomancer has obviously not played against any of the things he complains about recently nor watched a game where those were used nor bothered to read up the rules. He has zero right to complain about anything at all.

 flandarz wrote:
2 things. First: congrats in your first win. The first of many, I hope. Second: you got a good start going there with the Trakk.

Thanks! I know the unit is not the most cost-effective thing and I really lucked out with my dice rolls, but it was certainly something else to get to be mon the giving end, instead of receiving.

Rolling 11 str is max without wounding myself. Doing that two turns in a row was bonkers.
Needing 6's to hit because of the SM chapter trait causing -1 to hit outside of 12 inches (whichever ones have Shrike, the jump pack guy with lightning claws, I can never remember.) And scoring 2-3 hits in the first turn (after firing with tankbustas who must have gotten a hit or two in) and then scoring four hits on the next Dread in the next turn was just unfathomable luck with a H3 weapon, having rolled three 6's in the initial salvo. We have played several games and my rolling had never been this good. Maybe a few instances of good rolls, but nothing near as consistent as today was. (And then a Weirdboy rolled snake-eyes on turn 5, Cp'd the roll and still got snake eyes, exploding, having rolled a 6(3) for Perils damage and having had only 3 wounds remaining. It was a humorous game)

Doubt it will be like that again for a while. But it is still nice to know I have more than just Tankbustas in a Trukk, for my anti-armour. That said, should I take my 8 tankbustas in the Trukk and take 3 meganobz in the Trakk? Putting 6 Tankbustas in the Trakk is very eggs in one basket, but a good combo of damage, too.

Best passengers for your trakk would probably be nobz, as you can fit enough of them in there to actually make an impact.

Because they move so slowly, MANz are best used by putting them in the tellyporta and drop them where your opponent does not have the means to handle them quickly - either onto into his backfield to take out a lon-range unit or onto and objective where they clear out his troops and keep it to themselves.

Congrats on your first win!!!

You're definitely improving. Some of your success might have been luck, but while luck will help, it can't make up for bad tactics and bad lists. Congratulations on the win and on the growth that is definitely there!

I'm a competitive player who owns guard, marines, and knights, and have been flattened at tournaments by Orks. There's nothing wrong with Orks. You need practice, and you need to keep an open mind and look for what isn't working to actually learn.

Agreed, you need to play fairer missions. Maelstrom of war will solve most of your problems. Watch your opponent realize HE has to charge up the board to hold objectives early and can't just wait until you're dead. Then if your opponents complain, offer to switch to something like ITC tournament missions (available online for free) that are designed by competitive players to be fair.

I want to run through a thought experiment with you.

Suppose you're playing against a marine player who brings a a tactical squad and a devastator squad. Where do you focus your firepower?

Duh, you target the devastators. Devastators die just as easily as tactical marines but do more damage. If your opponent runs their tacs and their devs side by side they're doing it wrong. They need to try to force you to target the tacticals, for example by putting them on objectives or moving them up so you can't reach the devastators and putting the devastators in cover. A good list makes the choice harder. Eldar do it by defending their more valuable targets with psychic powers.

Your original list wasn't doing any of those things. Your opponent was free to target your most valuable units. You could defend one valuable unit with grot shields, but then they can just switch to targeting other valuable units, so by the time you reached them, all you had was boyz, and you might as well have brought less specialists and more boyz because they die equally easily but you could have brought more boyz. That's why you felt like you were down to 500 points vs. 2000 enemy points - they could shoot your most valuable stuff first.

This game is ALL about target priority: shooting at the right stuff, and making it hard for your opponent to do so. I used to do it by running all infantry. My opponent would literally be targeting lascannons at guardsmen. Imperial knights do it the opposite way, by making their opponents' anti-infantry guns worthless.

So how can you do that? Your first thought was transports. The problem is that this doesn't actually protect your specialist squads so well because any opponent worth their salt has brought SOME long range anti-tank weaponry. Enough to kill a trukk or two. If you had 6 trukks your opponent would have trouble picking a target and couldn't stop them all, but you only brought 2. This let your opponent use their lascannons or missile launchers or whatever in worthwhile ways. Not bringing any tanks basically would have made their anti-tank guns a waste of points, and BOOM, you're fielding 2000 points while they're effectively fielding just 1800 or even less.

Solution: Tellyportas and grot shields. Grot shields can only protect one squad, so you should start with only one specialist squad on the board, and the rest in tellyportas.

Also if you're running Orks you MUST understand what they mean by 3-point. Watch this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUn3q8vFCCw

 Jidmah wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Sorry, but did you just seriously compare shining spears to nob bikers?

They are similar. Obviously spears are better but in terms of unavoidable CC threats are on turn 1. Nob bikers are on that list. Plus they can fight again - Spears can't do that anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Like between a huge nob biker unit. Da jump a huge unit. Storm boys super move. Orks can assault you with about 50% of their armor turn 1.

At the very least they have forced you to deploy like a bonehead. Orks just have way too many stupid tools to increase their mobility. Plus 5+ invo bubbles in a army that pays only for a 6+ save on the regular and most of their guns have multiple shots to make up for their poor BS so on average they hit about the same as other shooting armies BUT they can also roll like gods and kill way to much for their points.

You might want to actually flip through an ork codex before you go on spouting even more nonsense about how orks work in your imagination.

More than half of the stuff you just wrote in that post is flat out wrong.

Why would you make such a claim like...half of everything I said was wrong. Without saying what is actually wrong. In fact - every single thing I mentioned is true.

He did say what was wrong. I'll quote it for you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:
You should at least know what you are talking about before complaining.

1) Nob bikers are a terrible, terrible unit that is almost twice as much points per model than shining spears and worse in every possible way.
2) Only ork infantry can fight twice
3) Huge nob biker units charging turn one are a minimum investment of 479 points (10 nobz+warboss) and 3 CP for that stunt, with at least two nob bikers not getting to fight as they need to bridge the gap to the warbosses's aura. Magnus warp-timing himself and crushing a unit of his choice is cheaper (CP and points), does more damage and is more durable. And sees zero play because he is bad.
4) Storm boyz cannot assault after getting their "super move" without a nearby warboss - with the same "super move" being available to space marine bikers, except they don't suffer casualties from it. Nerf please.
5) Ork armor that can pull off any remotely reliable assault turn one would be limited to the deffkilla wartrike and vehicles that somehow managed to keep pace with its 20" move (evil suns relic bonebreaka?). Only one ramming speed per turn makes this strategy more "one armored unit" rather than "50% of their armor".
6) Bubble wrapping is not "deploying like a bonehead", not bubble wrapping is.
7) Right now the most common save characteristic in the ork army 4+, 6+ is limited to boyz, burnas, lootas, tank bustas, gretchin and a few characters
8) Outside of two or three exceptions orks weapons do not have more shots than their imperial or chaos counterparts and usually cost more points and have less range than those.

To sum it up, Xenomancer has obviously not played against any of the things he complains about recently nor watched a game where those were used nor bothered to read up the rules. He has zero right to complain about anything at all.

Right here.

Lol, I mean if he can't even catch that from the thread, there's definitely no way Xenomancer actually ever bothered to read through the Ork codex in any meaningful way.

Well, maybe it's just hard reading any post that isn't a direct, quoted reply to his own posts?

 flandarz wrote:
Well, maybe it's just hard reading any post that isn't a direct, quoted reply to his own posts?

I mean, Jidmah's post is on the same page, not several pages back. Heck, you could reply to me fine and I didn't quote you.

I know. I was being facetious. I kinda think it might be a common issue here though. Especially in YMDC, I see a lot of folks answering the OP question days after it was already answered. So, I figure he just clicked "quote" and replied without reading the rest of the thread.