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Footprint is something I haven't seen talked about much. You have a sizeable investment of gretchin and boyz, march your boyz in long rectangular boxes. If you have a thirty man block, march them 3x10, with the narrow end at the front, and remove causalities from the back. This makes the important part of your footprint smaller, allowing you to get more units of boyz in on the action. It can deny you a few extra bodies in an assault if you can get a large enough squad there, but it blew my mind in terms of effectiveness when I started doing it.

Editing out all the costs, using a touch screen, is driving me fething bonkers! Bibbitybibbtybibbity!
This is everything I own, WYSIWYG.

++ Brigade Detachment +12CP (Orks) [128 PL, 15CP, 2,304pts] ++

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Clan Kultur: Goffs (yes Goffs)

Detachment CP [12CP]

Runtherd: Grabba Stikk, Squig Hound

Runtherd: Grot Lash, Grot-Prod

+ HQ +

Big Mek in Mega Armour: Grot Oiler, Kombi-Rokkit, Kustom Force Field, Power Klaw

Warboss: Attack Squig, Da Killa Klaw, Follow me Ladz!, Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw, Warlord

Weirdboy: 4. Fists of Gork, 5. Da Krunch, Warphead

Weirdboy: 3. Da Jump

+ Troops +

Boyz: 3x Tankbusta Bombs
. Boss Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. 29x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa

Boyz: 2x Tankbusta Bombs
. Boss Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. 24x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa

Boyz
. Boss Nob: Choppa, Kombi-Skorcha
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. 17x Ork Boy W/ Shoota

Gretchin
. 20x Gretchin

Gretchin
. 20x Gretchin

Gretchin
. 10x Gretchin

+ Elites +

Meganobz
. Boss Meganob w/ PK: Kombi-Rokkit
. Meganob W/ PK: Kustom Shoota
. Meganob W/ PK: Kustom Shoota
. Meganob W/ PK: Kustom Shoota
. Meganob W/ PK: Kustom Shoota

Mek: Choppa, Grot Oiler, Kustom Mega-Slugga

Nobz: Ammo Runt
. Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Big Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Big Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Power Klaw, Slugga
. Nob: Power Klaw, Slugga
. Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Choppa, Slugga

Painboy: Power Klaw

Tankbustas
. 7x Tankbusta: 7x Rokkit Launcha
. Tankbusta w/ Pistols: Pair of Rokkit Pistols

+ Fast Attack +

Deff Kopta (just the one)
. DeffKopta: Kopta Rokkits

Warbikers
. Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Slugga
. 4x Warbiker: 4x Stikkbombs

Wartrakk (Index) (I really like these)
. Wartrakk: Twin Big Shoota
. Wartrakk: Twin Big Shoota

+ Heavy Support +

Deff Dread
. Deff Dread: Big Shoota x2, Dread Klaw x2

Killa Kans
. Killa Kan: Big Shoota, Buzzsaw
. Killa Kan: Kan Klaw, Rokkit Launcha

Killa Kans
. Killa Kan: Drilla, Grotzooka

+ Dedicated Transport +

Trukk (Classic design from the Build&Paint kit): Big Shoota

++ Fortification Network (Orks) ++

Clan Kultur: No + Fortification +

Mekboy Workshop


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flandarz wrote:
Did you make sure your Weirdboy was within 9" of the Skarboyz? Remember that you get a +1 to Psyker Tests as long as 10 Ork Models are close to you. With a full 30 model unit of Boyz (and Command Reroll) you should only be failing your Da Jump maybe once every 30 tries or so?

Yeah, I know... I had moved the Weirdboy, but not the SkarBoyz, forgetting about the buff and just not thinking. Even if I had had the buff, my rolling was abysmal. Failing (yup) the Da Jump two (yup) turns in a row (yup) was painful (shoot me). The SkarBoyz were hella far back (Vanguard map, I dropped them in my back corner out of range and sight) and did not bother moving them, banking on the Da Jump (guess what I will not be doing, again) to get them across the field. By turn 3, when it successfully manifested, I had so little left and had removed only a handful of models from his forces and then failed the charge, so the SkarBoyz ate all the fire. It was, very much, a game of "Getting fethed by Murphy" (that which may have gone wrong, did.)

Just such a painful board-wipe. It was the 2nd time I had faced this guy and his 1000 points of IG

I did manage to win my first match in the game I played after the one against the IG, today. Small victory that I do not really count as I was playing someone in a position similar to my own, just a few games behind. He is learning the game and has a Nurgle army and had been forgetting several abilities on his warlord and a couple other units. He had also kept his Hellbrute out of LoS while his plague balloon thing (it had dual plague flamers, which wiped a 20-strong unit of grots) was "hey diddle diddle, straight up the middle". We both laughed as his psyker farted (Plagued Winds?) my Nobz out of existence. Full squad of 10 wiped (ba dum tss) But by the end of turn 4, he had realized some mistakes and was not in a good.position so we called it and are giving it another crack, tomorrow. I am looking forward to the rematch with his having a greater comprehension of his forces.

 Rismonite wrote:
Footprint is something I haven't seen talked about much. You have a sizeable investment of gretchin and boyz, march your boyz in long rectangular boxes. If you have a thirty man block, march them 3x10, with the narrow end at the front, and remove causalities from the back. This makes the important part of your footprint smaller, allowing you to get more units of boyz in on the action. It can deny you a few extra bodies in an assault if you can get a large enough squad there, but it blew my mind in terms of effectiveness when I started doing it.

Yeah, who knew Napoleonic tactics would be valid in the 41st millennium? With 'battalion' attack columns preceded by Grot 'skirmishers' - we should use biker 'cavalry' to complete the scene :-) Had a game vs Praetorian IG, looked so much like a re-run of an obscure Peninsula battle.

Though I normally go for a wider column on a non-City board, your three wide ones fit City 'roads' better, and their length mean the Pain Boy (if you run one) is away from the danger. Do you find a problem with 30mm bases, or are yours still on 25mm?

Tried an alternative tactic last tournament (as recent matches made me give up the concept of conventional fire power). 3 weirdboys, one warboss and remaining pts into boys. The idea was to do all the dmg with smite spam. It worked to some degree, as i never failed a smite with +3 pretty much all the time, and often d6 dmg. But you take lots of perils, so if you wanna try this at home bring a painboy or two. The output was roughly 9dmg/turn. Played evil suns to get smite range faster

Weakness is you cant select targets and short range. The boys add some wounds with shooting and melee.
Strength: reliable and board controll

Failing Da Jump twice in a row is really unlucky, don't let that put you off the psychic power! That's just the nature of the psychic phase. Early on in the game it should be possible to get that +3 to cast from the Weirdboy's Waaagh! Energy ability, and rolling a 7+ on 2D6+3 is far more likely than not, particularly with a command re-roll. All the same, sometimes you fail, but thems the breaks. Congratulations on your win. Building up a solid set of tactics takes a long time in this game and I've always found Orks to be a fairly nuanced army to play compared to others.

If you are haumted by such bad luck with da jump, maybe start taking the gitbones relic for another +1 to cast. With boys and that giving +4 on 7+ to succed and command reroll available you would be need a new level of bad luck to fail.

Gitbones also increase the chance of exploding more likely, so his "luck" could swing the other way and kill his weirdboy in two turns.

 Jidmah wrote:
Gitbones also increase the chance of exploding more likely, so his "luck" could swing the other way and kill his weirdboy in two turns.

Then bring a painboy. Also perils does maximum of 3 mortal wounds, painboy cant insta die round one unless sniped in some way. Usually the jump is only essential the first turn by my experience.

OK, so with 2,304 points to work with, it's pretty obvious that in 2k games, there's not a whole lot of wiggle room for you to work with, but it also sounds like you play at least some 1k games, where 2,304 points is a lot of flexibility.

And you're committing to Goffs. Honestly, I dislike Goffs because I always feel like they're a "win more" mechanic that only really comes in big when you've already gotten lucky with your charge rolls, psychic rolls etc and you get to kill a bunch more stuff, Deffskullz Evil Sunz etc I just like a lot more. But it's your call.

Here's my Dirt Simple 1k horde list:

Warboss w/PK
Big Mek w/KFF

30x choppa boyz
30x choppa boyz
10x shoota boyz

Painboy

2nd Battalion

Weirdboy
Weirdboy

Gretchin
Gretchin
Gretchin

This is going to be a solid list to teach you the fundamentals of how you should run a horde contingent. It doesn't ALWAYS have to be your whole list, but you should know how a list works if it IS your whole list because it gives you only one thing to concentrate on. Personally I would always run Sunz here, but you can run Goffs if you wish.

If it were me running this list, I would deploy a line of grots in the front, with the plan of grot shielding the biggest single source of enemy fire (if they have a Punisher tank, or a Riptide, or whatever, this is what you Shield against). I would use Mob Up to absorb the 10-man squad, Warpath then Da Jump a squad turn 1, and if they make it in I would spend 3 on Get Stuck In Lads. I would position all boyz within 9" of the big mek and 3" of the painboy and rely on 5++ 6+++ to keep them alive.

Ideally I would spend about 4-5cp on a Grot Shield then on offense turn 1, and I would conserve at least 5CP for an Insane Bravery+Endless Green Tide combo if my opponent is stupid and leaves one of my 30-blocks with a couple alive, relying on morale to wipe them out.

The actual micro-management gameplay is going to come from your blocks of boyz that you successfully charge in with. Using your pile-in moves, you'll want to sweep as many toothless shooty units/vehicles into the combat as possible, and surround anything you're able to in order to prevent shooting turn 1. Don't forget that even if you've only got a chaff line to fight in your first round of combat, you can pile in 3" to get anything else within 1" and use Get Stuck In to get even farther forward. The primary goal of the first squad is tying up and distraction, not killing.

This is going to be a really autopilot, simple list, that pretty much just teaches you how to execute on a basic ork strategy. It sounds like from your references to Skarboyz, misunderstanding the benefits of Evil Sunz and not making use of the Weirdboy buff, you need to drill down on a couple of the fundamentals of how the horde block works - and that's OK, I'm not trying to put you down or call you stupid.

For higher point level games, I'd incorporate a small, fast moving shooting contingent. I'd add in the following to make the list into 1500 points:

-7x tankbustas riding in a trukk
-one Trakk
-4 warbikers
-5 meganobz

The trakk and bikers primary job would be securing objectives around the map, but they can chew away at light chaff units and make a nuisance of themselves. Make sure all 4+sv units are under the KFF bubble top of turn 1 just in case you get the second turn, you want to retain the aspect of your army that makes AP greater than -1 useless.The Meganobz take a tellyporta to the battlefield, which means you'll need to be a bit more conservative since you want to make sure your horde core can still use the most vital stratagems: Grot Shield, Get Stuck In, Insane Bravery, Endless Green Tide. Anything you have the opportunity to stash out of line of sight, to make fitting most of your army under the KFF easier, you should do so.

Finally, to move it up to a full 2k list, change over from a double Battalion to a Brigade, add your heavy supports, the rest of your boyz, some extra gretchin for objective grabbing, and your Nobz.

Your list works worst at 2k unfortunately because you create an obvious target unit in the nobz which necessitates your grot shields to save them from plasma and other 2d weapons. If I were to improve your model pool, my first buy would be a Bonebreaka battlewagon to contain the nobz mek and warboss, allowing your boyz to just get to battle via two uses of Warpath+Da Jump from your weirdboys. Load them up to the full +3 for each cast - if they pop after the second, it doesn't matter, we only need them for two and if they survive to run around smiting once in a while, well great, that's nice. Then the KFF can shift to just protecting the Trakks, Trukk, Wagon and Dreads and the boyz rely just on the painboy and their saves.

I would strongly tell you to consider evil sunz as your primary subfaction type, because the +1 to charge off deep strike really really is critical for Ork lists like this to thrive. but if you are committed to goffs, the extra damage your units that do get in will do hopefully will offset a few failed charges. I just find it the biggest feelsbad moment in the game so I build my army to mitigate it.

I have to stress that you collection isn't so bad it's impossible for you to win. You have a good list. You just have to learn the ork battleplan and I think that starts with stripping your army down to a basic level and learning how the infantry block that will be the core of your list wants to fight.

I did manage to win my first match in the game I played after the one against the IG, today. Small victory that I do not really count as I was playing someone in a position similar to my own, just a few games behind. He is learning the game and has a Nurgle army and had been forgetting several abilities on his warlord and a couple other units

This sounds like the kinds of games you might like to continue to look for. I don't mean that these are games for winning but games for learning. It sounds like you are still fairly new yourself so play with people who are also new and enjoy the games. I'm not saying don't play with a more experienced crowd but the best thing to do is play games to help you become a stronger player and maybe have more fun.

The Scotsman has given you a very good start for your list. My suggestion is that if you want to run a true Greentide, you'll want 120 Boyz, minimum. The goal of a Greentide isn't to take down your opponent's army. It's to have so many bodies on the board that your opponent can't stop you from gaining VP from Objectives. So many that they don't have any chance to wipe them all.

Moriarty wrote:

 Rismonite wrote:
Footprint is something I haven't seen talked about much. You have a sizeable investment of gretchin and boyz, march your boyz in long rectangular boxes. If you have a thirty man block, march them 3x10, with the narrow end at the front, and remove causalities from the back. This makes the important part of your footprint smaller, allowing you to get more units of boyz in on the action. It can deny you a few extra bodies in an assault if you can get a large enough squad there, but it blew my mind in terms of effectiveness when I started doing it.

Yeah, who knew Napoleonic tactics would be valid in the 41st millennium? With 'battalion' attack columns preceded by Grot 'skirmishers' - we should use biker 'cavalry' to complete the scene :-) Had a game vs Praetorian IG, looked so much like a re-run of an obscure Peninsula battle.

Though I normally go for a wider column on a non-City board, your three wide ones fit City 'roads' better, and their length mean the Pain Boy (if you run one) is away from the danger. Do you find a problem with 30mm bases, or are yours still on 25mm?

Still on the tiny bases, I've been on a hiatus for six months so I haven't had anybody really pressuring me to switch. I need to dig back in to what has changed and rebase some models.

Noooo!

Nothing saying you have to re-base has come from GW, so save yourself the time & trouble. Not to mention getting more Boyz in combat:

"To target an enemy unit, the attacking model must either be within 1" of that unit, or within 1" of another model that is itself within 1" of that unit"

On 25mm base you get _two_ models within 1" of the enemy, and _two more_ models within 1" of _them_, as 25mm<1".

 flandarz wrote:
The Scotsman has given you a very good start for your list. My suggestion is that if you want to run a true Greentide, you'll want 120 Boyz, minimum. The goal of a Greentide isn't to take down your opponent's army. It's to have so many bodies on the board that your opponent can't stop you from gaining VP from Objectives. So many that they don't have any chance to wipe them all.

I'm of the opinion that based on his comments, he hates running the green tide style of just removing models and hoping you have enough models to win on objectives. But he is heavily invested in having a solid block of ork boyz, so I think it'd be somewhat silly to not assume that any eventual 2k list isn't going to be relying on a boyz block core.

There's multiple ways you can take a list with 2 large units of boyz though, because with just two units it's only 2 turns to Da Jump both squads directly at the enemy lines, and they work as great distractions/designated die-ers for any kind of ork list.

Personally I find the actual green tide "bring so many bodies your opponent can't kill them in 5 turns" to be the most boring way to play orks, and most of my lists will either bring a fast armored contingent to go with my boyz block, or extra deep strikers to make an alpha strike list.

the_scotsman wrote:


I'm of the opinion that based on his comments, he hates running the green tide style of just removing models and hoping you have enough models to win on objectives. But he is heavily invested in having a solid block of ork boyz, so I think it'd be somewhat silly to not assume that any eventual 2k list isn't going to be relying on a boyz block core.

There's multiple ways you can take a list with 2 large units of boyz though, because with just two units it's only 2 turns to Da Jump both squads directly at the enemy lines, and they work as great distractions/designated die-ers for any kind of ork list.

Personally I find the actual green tide "bring so many bodies your opponent can't kill them in 5 turns" to be the most boring way to play orks, and most of my lists will either bring a fast armored contingent to go with my boyz block, or extra deep strikers to make an alpha strike list.

I do not plan on fielding more than 90 Boyz and 60 Gretchin and that is already twice as many as I would prefer. You are correct; Green Tide is not my style of play. It is boring, expensive and a waste of everyone's time. And I am no longer relying on Da Jump to even go off, either. Dice. Are. Unreliable. If I want boyz in their face, it will be by Deepstrike, so that the unit is not on the board to get shot when Da Jump fails to manifest.

Honestly, my issue has become "8th is pretty gakky for melee armies when facing shooting armies" and that is the majority of the match-ups that I will face. Having to completely bypass movement, in order to "reliably" make it to charge range,.is terrible game design and Da Jump is lip-service, at best. While we are on the subject of lip-service, so is Dakka Dakka Dakka (yeah, it can be handy, but will mostly be additional slugga and shoota shots, because of weight of dice. Units with fewer shots having to rely on DDD are going to fall behind because Dice. Are. Not. Reliable.

There are a few things I could add/remove to make a decent 40k Orks list, but I also do not want to be a douchebag and waste people's time by taking so long to set up and move my units. (Sorry if considering the opponent's life is "too much" for the average player who just wants to win to comprehend) so I am not going to commit to a full Green Tide list (It already takes me too long to do gak, as it is.)

"Weight of dice" does, indeed, improve the over-all theoretical average of the results. In practice, though, DICE! ARE! NOT! fething! RELIABLE!

Can I use Grot Shields more than once a turn? Which version of 8th should I be playing? Rules As Written core book, but Chapter Approved Missions?

fething... Just shoot me.

Meh, my Orks have been Shoota Boyz since 3rd edition. With 2 attacks each Orks are good enough at combat that they don't need to base their strategy on it. Being able to shoot, however, is very very important. Not useful advise where they already have sluggas and choppas, I know, but I just find it weird to go all in on close combat when Orks have some incredible bonuses to shooting.

My experience, with Ork shooting has been:
- Roll handfulls of dice
- Look for 6's
- Roll extra shots
- Score a couple wounds out of a handful of hits
- Enemy makes their armour saves, maybe a wound gets through.
(Meanwhile, the enemy hits on 2-3 and re-rolls 1's and has AP so I am just bleeding bases and causing minimal wounds, myself)

My dice rolling must just be ass, compared to everyone else's. Yet more evidence that I am not meant to be successful at anything in my life. A doormat. My purpose of existence is to be a gak-sponge and soak up everyone's ass-gravy.

 General Malarky wrote:
My experience, with Ork shooting has been:
- Roll handfulls of dice
- Look for 6's
- Roll extra shots
- Score a couple wounds out of a handful of hits
- Enemy makes their armour saves, maybe a wound gets through.
(Meanwhile, the enemy hits on 2-3 and re-rolls 1's and has AP so I am just bleeding bases and causing minimal wounds, myself)

My dice rolling must just be ass, compared to everyone else's. Yet more evidence that I am not meant to be successful at anything in my life. A doormat. My purpose of existence is to be a gak-sponge and soak up everyone's ass-gravy.

Look, you clearly have some sort of personal issues, coming on here and displaying them for everyone isnt going to help you. 40k is a game, games are meant to be fun, if you're not having fun, stop beating yourself up, just play another game. Your worth as a human being should not be determined by the results of the dicerolls you get. I don't mean to be mean but if the smallest speedbump is enough to make you loath yourself, then maybe you should consult an expert. I say this for your own good.

As to the actual topic of this thread, orks can be played in other ways than green tide. I've started associating orks with mechanized lists more than horde lists since both players at my store play with Morka/Gorka's more often than not. with the amount of models you have access to, experiment to find a playstyle/list that fits what youre looking for in the game. I recomment TableTop Simulator on Steam to test out new units before buying them.

LOL in probably 20 games I've played against orks this eddition Da Jump has NEVER failed to cast.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 General Malarky wrote:
My experience, with Ork shooting has been:
- Roll handfulls of dice
- Look for 6's
- Roll extra shots
- Score a couple wounds out of a handful of hits
- Enemy makes their armour saves, maybe a wound gets through.
(Meanwhile, the enemy hits on 2-3 and re-rolls 1's and has AP so I am just bleeding bases and causing minimal wounds, myself)

My dice rolling must just be ass, compared to everyone else's. Yet more evidence that I am not meant to be successful at anything in my life. A doormat. My purpose of existence is to be a gak-sponge and soak up everyone's ass-gravy.

Take 30 shoota boys. Give them more dakka.
That's 30 natural hits If you are free bootas with a +1 thats 45 hit. With 5-6 generating additional hits - easily 60 hits in best case scenario. Youll wound with half on 4's or 1/3 on 5's. Take 30 wounds on you (x) It's likely dead.

You cannot use Grot Shields more than once a phase, no. Here's the deal, buddy. If you want to foot slog, you either have to be tough enough to withstand fire over multiple rounds, or fast enough to get there without taking fire. Boyz are neither of these. You'd be better off bringing a few max-size Nobs, since atleast they got 4+ instead of 6+. I agree with Scotsman; your Boyz are only gonna work for you if you Da Jump them OR if you take so many that your opponent will have trouble eliminating them all. If you wanna be stubborn and not take the advice folks are giving you, then you can't really complain about losing.

I'll agree that large armies just take too long. No one likes a Greentide list. It's boring and lame. Then you need to change your list so it's not in that psuedo-Greentide area. Orkz have a bunch of different options for list building. You could grab a Wartrike, some Flyers, and some Battlewagons and go with a highly mobile Speedfreekz. You could go with Lootas, a SSAG, Gork, etc. and run a more stationary Shooting list. The thing is that you kinda gotta commit. You're taking bits and pieces of a bunch of different units, none of which really synergize with each other.

Another thing is that, when you play Orkz, you have to be ready to take losses. A lot of them. You aren't playing Knights or Eldar Flyers, where it could take two or three turns to take down a unit. Orkz are squishy. Be able to accept that you're gonna have casualties, or don't play Orkz.

Lastly, DDD has a 1 in 18 chance of giving you another shot on a BS5+ model. That is, indeed, unreliable. However, Da Jump has a 58% chance of succeeding without ANY bonus. This goes up to like a 92% chance if you got 30 Boyz nearby. That IS reliable. Ork charges, even without Evil Suns, succeed around 52% of the time at 9". Compared to the 28% chance that any army without 'Ere We Go has, that is pretty damn reliable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also 100% agree with Vlad. You are obviously not having fun playing 40k. If you're spending you limited time on this planet doing something you hate, you're wasting your life. Find something you DO enjoy. If you like the lore, but the wargame isn't your thing, there are multiple 40k videogames for you. There is also Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader, the 40k pen and paper games. Or, you can do like many other people do: just skip the wargame entirely and focus on collecting and painting. You could read the novels as well. There's a ton of ways to enjoy 40k without actually playing the wargame. Find one that works for you.

 Xenomancers wrote:
LOL in probably 20 games I've played against orks this eddition Da Jump has NEVER failed to cast.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 General Malarky wrote:
My experience, with Ork shooting has been:
- Roll handfulls of dice
- Look for 6's
- Roll extra shots
- Score a couple wounds out of a handful of hits
- Enemy makes their armour saves, maybe a wound gets through.
(Meanwhile, the enemy hits on 2-3 and re-rolls 1's and has AP so I am just bleeding bases and causing minimal wounds, myself)

My dice rolling must just be ass, compared to everyone else's. Yet more evidence that I am not meant to be successful at anything in my life. A doormat. My purpose of existence is to be a gak-sponge and soak up everyone's ass-gravy.

Take 30 shoota boys. Give them more dakka.
That's 30 natural hits If you are free bootas with a +1 thats 45 hit. With 5-6 generating additional hits - easily 60 hits in best case scenario. Youll wound with half on 4's or 1/3 on 5's. Take 30 wounds on you (x) It's likely dead.

you only get +1 if a unti withing 24 inches of that unit destroyed an enemy unit in that phase for freebootas, not a flat +1 to hit all the time.

assumign you task 30 shotas in a unit 60 shots, 20 hit, 10 get another shot meaning 3 more hits. 23 ap- str 4 hits. though tis is also assuming all 30 are in 18 inch range

if they do get the +1 hit its 30 hits, 10 more shots and 5 from there so 35 ap-0 str 4 hits.

it is not bad, but there is a reason most ork players mix and match units. I when running green tide rock 10 shootas, 20 slugga/choppa. advance turn 1, shoot shootas to pick off a few models and pick out shoota boyz first on casualties (they go in the back) usually i can only pick 1-2 wounds off a squad after saves in actual practice, but assuming they cannot deal with the whole unit in thier next turn those boyz will do some dmg. (this assumes they were not dajumped or arriving via tellyporta which an ork player shoudl be doing, but as you can only have a few untis use these and a true green tide has at least 180 buys it means some have to hoof it.)

 General Malarky wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


I'm of the opinion that based on his comments, he hates running the green tide style of just removing models and hoping you have enough models to win on objectives. But he is heavily invested in having a solid block of ork boyz, so I think it'd be somewhat silly to not assume that any eventual 2k list isn't going to be relying on a boyz block core.

There's multiple ways you can take a list with 2 large units of boyz though, because with just two units it's only 2 turns to Da Jump both squads directly at the enemy lines, and they work as great distractions/designated die-ers for any kind of ork list.

Personally I find the actual green tide "bring so many bodies your opponent can't kill them in 5 turns" to be the most boring way to play orks, and most of my lists will either bring a fast armored contingent to go with my boyz block, or extra deep strikers to make an alpha strike list.

I do not plan on fielding more than 90 Boyz and 60 Gretchin and that is already twice as many as I would prefer. You are correct; Green Tide is not my style of play. It is boring, expensive and a waste of everyone's time. And I am no longer relying on Da Jump to even go off, either. Dice. Are. Unreliable. If I want boyz in their face, it will be by Deepstrike, so that the unit is not on the board to get shot when Da Jump fails to manifest.

Honestly, my issue has become "8th is pretty gakky for melee armies when facing shooting armies" and that is the majority of the match-ups that I will face. Having to completely bypass movement, in order to "reliably" make it to charge range,.is terrible game design and Da Jump is lip-service, at best. While we are on the subject of lip-service, so is Dakka Dakka Dakka (yeah, it can be handy, but will mostly be additional slugga and shoota shots, because of weight of dice. Units with fewer shots having to rely on DDD are going to fall behind because Dice. Are. Not. Reliable.

There are a few things I could add/remove to make a decent 40k Orks list, but I also do not want to be a douchebag and waste people's time by taking so long to set up and move my units. (Sorry if considering the opponent's life is "too much" for the average player who just wants to win to comprehend) so I am not going to commit to a full Green Tide list (It already takes me too long to do gak, as it is.)

"Weight of dice" does, indeed, improve the over-all theoretical average of the results. In practice, though, DICE! ARE! NOT! fething! RELIABLE!

Can I use Grot Shields more than once a turn? Which version of 8th should I be playing? Rules As Written core book, but Chapter Approved Missions?

fething... Just shoot me.

Dice are unreliable, but the chance of failing to cast Da Jump with a +3 (which you will often have access to, even if you lose models typically you don't lose more than 30 before your first cast if you run 60 boyz) is astronomical in 40k terms - almost nothing can be more reliable, as you have to roll snake eyes then roll another 1 on the CP re-roll. Weirdboyz will always survive the first perils of the warp hit, which even with +3 is still only about 1 in 5, though it definitely feels like more! I usually intend my weirdboyz to cast exactly twice, and then if they're alive after that great, and if not..no biggy. So I have two units in my army I want to Da Jump, which is typically 2x30 boyz. It is also worth noting that the big strength of da jump is that it works turn 1, which as you've learned can be really important as gunlines can put out quite a bit of damage if you don't have anything tying them up and forcing fall backs.

My recommendation to you is literally to run about 2/3 of what you just said. 60 boyz, 40 gretchin, just to get your 6 troops and get either 10 or 12 command points from detachments (depending if you go brigade or not). And after that run the units you actually want to run, vehicles and elites.

You can't Grot Shield more than once per turn in normal rules. That's why I said you should use it to block the biggest single shooting attack in the enemy roster - a punisher tank, or a riptide, or something buffed by a stratagem. If you include a unit that relies on GS to survive out in the open, like footslogging tankbustas, IMO that weakens your list overall because it forces you to protect that unit rather than being able to single out a unit of your enemy's that you'd like to block. That's why I'm not super jazzed about including the unit of Nobz in your list until you get them a transport.

Orks are one of the most iconic close combat races in 40k and have been for years. The lore and the novels are packed with brutal close combat fights between Orks and every Space Marine that's ever been from the God Emperor himself to the lowliest scout.

And yet, reading 4 pages of this, it seem that the iconic melee fighters of the game don't even stand a chance in close combat, assuming they even get there first.

The fault is not the OP. The fault is a horribly, unbalanced game, that is more concerned with quick sales and the giant killer robot toy of the month.

Rarely does this happen in other games systems I play, where even players of mediocre ability have a better chance than this.

My advice to the OP is this: pull the plug on 40k and invest your valuable time and money on another non-GW game.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Orks are one of the most iconic close combat races in 40k and have been for years. The lore and the novels are packed with brutal close combat fights between Orks and every Space Marine that's ever been from the God Emperor himself to the lowliest scout.

And yet, reading 4 pages of this, it seem that the iconic melee fighters of the game don't even stand a chance in close combat, assuming they even get there first.

The fault is not the OP. The fault is a horribly, unbalanced game, that is more concerned with quick sales and the giant killer robot toy of the month.

Rarely does this happen in other games systems I play, where even players of mediocre ability have a better chance than this.

My advice to the OP is this: pull the plug on 40k and invest your valuable time and money on another non-GW game.

If you look at the tournament performance of orks, the discussion in the thread and the ork tactics thread, and that is the summary you take from all of this, I have the following work which will probably also convince you that 40k is the worst game ever, your faction stands no chance, melee is broken and everything sucks:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Orks are one of the most iconic close combat races in 40k and have been for years. The lore and the novels are packed with brutal close combat fights between Orks and every Space Marine that's ever been from the God Emperor himself to the lowliest scout.

And yet, reading 4 pages of this, it seem that the iconic melee fighters of the game don't even stand a chance in close combat, assuming they even get there first.

The fault is not the OP. The fault is a horribly, unbalanced game, that is more concerned with quick sales and the giant killer robot toy of the month.

Rarely does this happen in other games systems I play, where even players of mediocre ability have a better chance than this.

My advice to the OP is this: pull the plug on 40k and invest your valuable time and money on another non-GW game.

If you look at the tournament performance of orks, the discussion in the thread and the ork tactics thread, and that is the summary you take from all of this, I have the following work which will probably also convince you that 40k is the worst game ever, your faction stands no chance, melee is broken and everything sucks:

Spoiler:

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.

Nobody expects Orks to be invincible. Nor do I expect Orks to win every game. That would be silly. And yet, It is supposed to be a fun hobby.

To buy, file, glue, undercoat, paint, and varnish over 100+ Orks, is not a 5 minute job.
For most people, it's a 5 month job.

There is nothing more soul-crushing than putting in that time and effort, putting those minis on the table, and then having to remove them 30 seconds later, because GW is pushing it's killer robot of the month, and your minis never stood a chance anyway.

Other games and systems handle things a lot better.

Are Orks doing so well in tournaments because people show up with green carpets with more wounds than can be shot out in a game, as well as drawing out the game's duration to prevent subsequent turns from happening while also controlling points by sheer volume that the opponent cannot even hope to compete?

Cos that sounds like what they are supposed to be doing and that is dirty fething pool.

Also, it would invalidate them being considered "a strong force" because they are ruining the fun of the game in exchange for an easy win.

 General Malarky wrote:
Are Orks doing so well in tournaments because people show up with green carpets with more wounds than can be shot out in a game, as well as drawing out the game's duration to prevent subsequent turns from happening while also controlling points by sheer volume that the opponent cannot even hope to compete?

Cos that sounds like what they are supposed to be doing and that is dirty fething pool.

Also, it would invalidate them being considered "a strong force" because they are ruining the fun of the game in exchange for an easy win.

a lot of tournaments have goen to chess clocks specifically so you cannot just ride out the clock.

orks are a pretty good book but as repeated they have to dedicate to all mechanized or all boyz and honeslty all boyz does the best. it invalidates every single anti tank weapon your opponent brings and they do not have the shots to deal with you. all mech invalidates all the antiinfantry and orks have cheap enough (poitns wise) models that you bring enough to weather the storm and get stuck in. mixed mech/infantry armies do not work we lack the durability to let an opponent use thier anti tank and anti infantry weapons to full effect without negating one or the other

Part of the issue orks have in pick up games is when people list tailor to your faction. It is hard to make a list that can face down 180+ ork boyz rocking 6+ inv and 6+ fnp rolls and also face off against a imperial knight list. I cannot tell you the amount of times I find a game and suddenly the other player is on thier phone or pencil up tweeking thier list to now have flamers in every squad and the tools to deal with horde (which then surprises them as they get to see an all mech army put on the table as i wait till lists are modded now to unpack my models with my take all comers unmodified list.)

That's why I like my Freebooterz list. I went up against a Tau player, and he thought that I would be charging in waves of Boyz, so he stayed bundled up in a FTGG gaggle. So, when I just decided to shoot him from range for 3 turns, he was hurting.

Like the others said, you have options outside of running as many bodies as you can. But you have to commit. Between Lootaz, Smashas, and SAGs, we got a surprising amount of range to stay back and fire on the enemy. Put a Gork or a few Dreadz into a Tellyporta, use your ranged options to target AT, then drop them in. Tell us what kind of list you wanna run, and we can help you build it.

 General Malarky wrote:
Are Orks doing so well in tournaments because people show up with green carpets with more wounds than can be shot out in a game, as well as drawing out the game's duration to prevent subsequent turns from happening while also controlling points by sheer volume that the opponent cannot even hope to compete?

Cos that sounds like what they are supposed to be doing and that is dirty fething pool.

Also, it would invalidate them being considered "a strong force" because they are ruining the fun of the game in exchange for an easy win.

Again, it only sounds like that because you are reading what you want to read. Look at actual ork tournament-winning lists, and you can see that while some definitely do feature the kind of objective focused game you're describing, many don't, and instead just use a couple of boyz squads Da Jumped at the enemy to tie up gunlines while the actual list tends to operate more on a combination of melee, shooting, elite units, and horde units. While they definitely do maximise their command points pool, they almost always do that with copious amounts of 10-man gretchin squads.

In almost any competitive list unless it's going super heavy on alpha strike/tabling there is far more focus on units intended to score rather than kill. Looking the top 25 lists from adepticon is a great way to see the kind of structure of common competitive ork lists: Typically you've got something big and killy, a bunch of MSU units there to fill out brigades/battalions and maximise command points, and a couple 30-blocks of boyz for da jump to shut down shooters.

Those lists are slightly out of date as they are from when loota bombs so 2 out of the 4 ork lists in the top 16 made use of the loota mob up thing you can no longer do post-FAQ.

If you look at your collection and go:

Ok do I have weirdboyz and a couple 30-blocks of boyz I can da jump? Yes.

OK do I have several squads of gretchins to max out on CP's? Yes.

OK do I have some kind of big scary unit like a gorkanaut, morkanaut, meganobz, or several deff dreads I can Tellyport in and spend Cp on murdering stuff? Yes.

Then you have a solid ork collection that you can structure similarly to the ork lists that are and continue to be winning and placing high in tournaments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
++ Battalion Detachment (Orks – Bad Moons) ++
HQ: Weirdboy: Da Jump, Weirdboy Staff

HQ: Weirdboy: Da Fist, Weirdboy Staff

Troops: 10x Grots

Troops: 10x Grots

Troops: 10x Grots

++ Brigade Detachment (Orks – Deff Skulls, Vigilus) ++
HQ: Big Mek on Warbike: KMG, KFF

HQ: Big Mek on Warbike: KMG, KFF
HQ: Big Mek: Grot Oiler, Warlord: Sniping, Relic: Souped-up Gun

Troops: 10x Grots

Troops: 10x Grots

Troops: 10x Grots

Troops: 10x Grots

Troops: 10x Grots

Troops: 10x Grots

Elites: 5x Kommandoes: 5x Big Shoota x2, Tankbusta Bomb

Elites: Mad Doc Grotznic

Elites: 5x Kommandoes: 5x Big Shoota x2, Tankbusta Bomb

Fast Attack: Deff Koptas: Twin Big Shootas, Big Bomms

Fast Attack: Deff Koptas: Twin Big Shootas, Big Bomms

Fast Attack: Deff Koptas: Twin Big Shootas, Big Bomms

Heavy Support: Mek Guns: Smasha

Heavy Support: Mek Guns: Smasha

Heavy Support: Mek Guns: Smasha

++ Battalion Detachment (Orks – Bad Moons) ++
HQ: Ork Warboss: Relic: Powerclaw

HQ: Weirdboy: Weirboy Staff

Troops: 10x Boys: 10x Shoota, 1x Tankbusta bombs, Big Choppa

Troops: 30x Boys: 30x Shoota, Big Choppa, 3x Tank Busta Bombs

Troops: 30x Boys: 30x Shoota, Big Choppa, 3x Tank Busta Bombs

Look at this list. This list won 3rd place at one of the single biggest warhammer 40k GT's 3 months ago, and nothing has changed since then regarding this list. It does not rely on spamming boyz ad nauseum. It does not rely on totally leaving zero targets capable of being shot by anti-vehicle weapons. It does not rely on the loota bomb gimmick. It does not rely on a million smasha gunz, it runs exactly 3 to unlock a brigade as they're the cheapest HS choice that pulls its weight.

It does prioritize objectives over killing, and if you wanted to do that you'd trim out a little bit of the MSU in favor of some more in-your-face elements like the meganobz in deep strike.

 General Malarky wrote:
Yet more evidence that I am not meant to be successful at anything in my life. A doormat. My purpose of existence is to be a gak-sponge and soak up everyone's ass-gravy.

If you think you're crap, you are.

I know this sounds like hippy-dippy new-age BS, but your own attitude has a huge impact on how things go for you. You say that things never go right for you. Consider that your pessimism may be a major cause, rather than simply the logical result.

---

As for the game, people have given you good advice. Thing is, you need to take it. If you play Orks the way you think they should be played, and consistently lose, then you're not playing them in a competitive way. Playing non-competitively is fine, unless your opponent is playing to win. Then it sucks and you'll feel bad, because it's an unfair, and unfun match-up. So play differently or find some opponents who share your play style.

I mean, it's the same for any competitive game, right? You wouldn't bring a fun themed deck to a Magic: The Gathering tournament, would you? But those can be super fun to play with casual friends. I have a super-fun "everything must be on fire" deck that I *know* is non-competitive, but it's fun anyway as long as I don't try it out against a deck made to smash everything in sight by turn 3.