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Made in us
Been Around the Block




You've got to be insane to think MTG is anywhere near as expensive as 40k. Having played both extensively, I could build a fun and very strong casual deck for less than the cost of a single infantry box. I still have decks from more than a decade ago that still hold up and are fun to play with. Nor do I need several hundred dollar decks to play competitive when drafts exist. If you want to play competitive 40k you better be prepared to take out a second mortgage these days with the meta shifting every other month.

That's not even mentioning money for paints, brushes, tools, books and all the other random expenses required for the hobby. It's not even a comparison.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




redboi wrote:
You've got to be insane to think MTG is anywhere near as expensive as 40k. Having played both extensively, I could build a fun and very strong casual deck for less than the cost of a single infantry box. I still have decks from more than a decade ago that still hold up and are fun to play with. Nor do I need several hundred dollar decks to play competitive when drafts exist. If you want to play competitive 40k you better be prepared to take out a second mortgage these days with the meta shifting every other month.

That's not even mentioning money for paints, brushes, tools, books and all the other random expenses required for the hobby. It's not even a comparison.



?? Having played both I can say you are really looking at MTG with some rose colored shades. Sure, you can play competitive draft pretty cheap, that's about it however. If you play the old formats for competitive MTG, those decks and singles will cost you a pretty penny if you want to have a competitive chance. As well following the standard builds, getting new sets as they drop and following the competitive money cards for the best decks will cost you a good amount in that as well. Draft is about the only format done regularly that you don't pay a ton for.

There are many expensive and recurring expenses for Magic, you don't usually pay it all at the start. Warhammer has a large outlay over a smaller time period however once that is done, it's generally cheaper to maintain one army or the countless magic decks and trading stock to keep up with everything in MTG.

For instance, I've had my guard army pretty much done for years now. I had to add nothing to it to keep up with the current meta trends or have my army usable. Anything I wanted to add to it has been simply for desire and not for need and even then I think I've spent like 200$ over the past two years on it. I assure you if I was keeping up with MTG standard that cost would be easily three or four times as much over the same time period if not more.

Draft is simply the cheapest and best example for cheap magic. As for casual decks, sure casual magic decks are cheap but outside private play groups it can be hard to find people to play casual as everyone is much more geared towards standard ideals and all the sweat that brings with it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/21 08:09:20


 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






And draft isn't even that cheap. You're spending ~$15 per draft at most stores (and if you aren't prize support is nonexistent), so if you're playing in your local FNM every week that's $60/month. If you want to draft more to be competitive that number goes up. And if you want to win at drafting you have to ignore the value of the cards, passing that expensive foil mythic rare in favor of a powerful common your deck needs. So you can forget about extracting full value from those packs you're drafting with, unless you enjoy losing.

Contrast that with the price of playing 40k where $60-100 per month buys you a kit or two, enough that most adults aren't going to have enough free time to finish building and painting more than that within a month. And unlike drafting there's no ongoing cost once you finish building the army. The draft player spends their $720+ per year on drafting and has nothing at the end of it all, only more $15 drafts to buy. The 40k player spends their $720 on a decent starter army and has an army they can keep playing with forever with no expenses outside of rulebook updates.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slipspace wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
If you're going to try to argue that you can play MTG with a free starter deck (that loses 95% of the time or worse against anyone not using the free starter deck) then you need to compare it to playing 40k with paper tokens and a pirated pdf of the rules.


A much more accurate analogy would be comparing it to one of the 40k starter sets. Both provide the bare minimum required to play but don't really offer enough to actually compete meaningfully with more established players. For that you'll need more cards/models. Your 40k analogy extended to MtG would mean playing MtG with printed cards rather than official ones, which is almost free. So MtG is still cheaper but they're both in the same ballpark.


No, my analogy was correct. Playing with a free demo deck in MTG is a one-time teaching tool that does not work in normal games. Playing 40k with pirated rules and paper cutouts for models is a one-time teaching tool that does not work in normal games. You can't compare a free teaching demo in MTG to the cost of playing the real game in 40k, which is what you're trying to do.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/21 08:25:31


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut




I think magic is much easier to start with. You can get casual decks for almost free and then just be content with some random drafts/sealed events and play kitchen magic. Almost 0 start up cost and time investment required unlike for warhammer. You have to buy paints, tools and models and then spend 100ish hours just to have a small army done before you even get much enjoyment out of the game.

After that first phase the 2 games get more similar though. If you want to play in any of the more competitive magic formats you have to start spending money and the difference in how much you pay for your game is probably close to 0. Having competitive magic decks and 40k armies is both costly. With 40k you pay a bit more in time and magic in cash but total investment is close.

But totalt cost for the hobby isnt that important since when you are hooked and deep in to it you will have spent thousands of dollars after a few years no matter what hobby it is. But were magic wins in this comparison is how easy and cheap it is to start and then add to it. All you need is some money and perhaps someone who can give you some duplicates of cheap/worthless but useful cards. And 0 time investment and need to glue fingers together.

Having to pay huge amounts(for what is seen as some plastic toys) for plastic and then have a part time job just to Assemble/paint the stuff so you can play is daunting for newer players. If it at least were cheaper it might seem more worthwhile to start.

Each time I get back to playing magic I just draft a few times. Buy a deck for a couple of hundred, play it for some months and then sell it. Almost 0 extra time needed to get back in to it since the core rules havent changed. Doing the same with 40k is about the same cost but the time needed is on a different level. Takes me longer to paint new units than I have to wait for my new cards to arrive in the mail and learning new rules, armies and meta foe 40k takes more than 10x as long as for magic. "No ever quits magic. There is only a difference in how long their break lasts"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/21 10:13:49


 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




AngryAngel80 wrote:
redboi wrote:
You've got to be insane to think MTG is anywhere near as expensive as 40k. Having played both extensively, I could build a fun and very strong casual deck for less than the cost of a single infantry box. I still have decks from more than a decade ago that still hold up and are fun to play with. Nor do I need several hundred dollar decks to play competitive when drafts exist. If you want to play competitive 40k you better be prepared to take out a second mortgage these days with the meta shifting every other month.

That's not even mentioning money for paints, brushes, tools, books and all the other random expenses required for the hobby. It's not even a comparison.



?? Having played both I can say you are really looking at MTG with some rose colored shades. Sure, you can play competitive draft pretty cheap, that's about it however. If you play the old formats for competitive MTG, those decks and singles will cost you a pretty penny if you want to have a competitive chance. As well following the standard builds, getting new sets as they drop and following the competitive money cards for the best decks will cost you a good amount in that as well. Draft is about the only format done regularly that you don't pay a ton for.

There are many expensive and recurring expenses for Magic, you don't usually pay it all at the start. Warhammer has a large outlay over a smaller time period however once that is done, it's generally cheaper to maintain one army or the countless magic decks and trading stock to keep up with everything in MTG.

For instance, I've had my guard army pretty much done for years now. I had to add nothing to it to keep up with the current meta trends or have my army usable. Anything I wanted to add to it has been simply for desire and not for need and even then I think I've spent like 200$ over the past two years on it. I assure you if I was keeping up with MTG standard that cost would be easily three or four times as much over the same time period if not more.

Draft is simply the cheapest and best example for cheap magic. As for casual decks, sure casual magic decks are cheap but outside private play groups it can be hard to find people to play casual as everyone is much more geared towards standard ideals and all the sweat that brings with it.

You are comparing top level MTG with casual 40k. You're being disingenuous and you know it. The vast majority of magic is played super casual. I don't need a new $200 wombo combo to play magic. Fact remains that I can build several decks for like $100, play them for a couple months, then sell them if I want and basically break even or often times MAKE MONEY as cards tend to gain value over time.

For competitive, again I can drop $10 for a draft whenever I feel the itch and be on an equal footing to everyone else there and even win some prizes from it. You absolutely can not do that with 40k.

You can play MTG for as little or as much money as you want, even close to free. If you want to play 40k you are dropping several hundred dollars minimum just to get started before even getting books and supplies

Anyone who has played both knows how silly this argument is.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/21 14:49:21


 
   
Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator





Lincolnton, N.C.

I like eBay and rescuing minis on the cheap.

My beloved 40K armies:
Furry Emperor's Children
Order of Saint Pan Thera


DR:80S+++G+M+B++IPw40K(3)00-D++A+++/cWD233R---T(M)DM+ 
   
Made in ca
Eternally-Stimulated Slaanesh Dreadnought





Rzhev

Slipspace wrote:
 Excommunicatus wrote:
So... paper tokens and pirated .pdfs but you're paying for Dark Imperium?

Except to deliberately skew the numbers, why?


I'm specifically saying the opposite of that. I'm saying the nearest 40k analog for a free starter deck in Magic is something like Dark Imperium. If you are going to claim you can play 40k for cheap using paper tokens then the same applies to Magic using photocopied cards.


I can see how it isn't entirely clear, but I was responding to jidmah.

I agree that if you're going to bring pirated rules and counts as tokens into it then the logic extends to photocopied/pirated cards
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Courageous Space Marine Captain





SoCal

We used to play Magic during lunch breaks at my old job. It was super cheap to get a deck of cards, less costly than an upscale burrito, and we had games for months. Then some jerk face brought in his tournament deck and shut it all down. Rather than spend money to catch up with the meta or bring our A game or whatever toxic page 5 nonsense, we just stopped playing with him and continued to enjoy near-free MtG.

When I tried to get friends into casual 40k, none would buy the models or books and I had to supply everything. It was not cheap. Even supplying EM4 minis for generic tabletop rulesets costs more than casual Magic. A lot more. The comparison only exists for people with so little chill they think the only way to play is to compete with near-strangers at a store or other venue.

   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Virginia

I'm sorta price immune but only on stuff that I want. I sometimes wonder if GW couldn't triple or quadruple their sales if they cut prices in half. For example, I never made the mercenary Empire army or Vampire Counts army I wanted to build simply because playing an infantry army in WHFB cost an arm, a leg and maybe another appendage to get into.
   
Made in au
Deadshot Weapon Moderati





Newcastle NSW

What has the price of some card game got to do with the OP's post?

The Four Winds Tribe has returned to claim the Underhive for House Escher


Deathwatch Kill Team: W9 D0 L2
 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






 Rolsheen wrote:
What has the price of some card game got to do with the OP's post?


Because certain people like to compare apples to oranges, or wargames to wine, Ferraris and golf, or wargames to CCGs.




A GW fan walks into a bar, buys the same drink as yesterday but pays more.

""Unite" is a human word, ... join me or die."

If you break apart my posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






It's hilarious to see people claiming that MTG is cheap, right after WOTC announced their latest scheme to milk the cash cow of cardboard crack addicts with $25 "premium" packs. At least with GW you know what you're buying, you aren't spending piles of money and hoping RNG gives you something useful.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in gb
Sneaky Striking Scorpion





Midlands, UK

The apples-to-oranges hobby comparison is daft, and I'm not sure why people do it. There's hobbies out there that are virtually free and hobbies that are eye-wateringly expensive. Whether you want to argue GW is cheap or expensive, there's another hobby you can compare it against to 'prove' your point, except it's a pointless comparison. All that matters is whether the cost of this particular hobby is acceptable, to you.

Personally, I'm fine with it. I have a decent disposable income, and I'm quite frugal in most other aspects of my life. Little plastic soldiers are my primary indulgence, where the frugal part of my brain is quite happy to switch off and buy all the things. That's not to say that I totally ignore the price - I tend to buy through my FLGS at a good discount and have a place that I pre-order things from that does an even bigger discount on pre-orders. As others have said, the main concern here is new blood. The higher the prices rise, surely it must get harder to get new people into the hobby. Those of us who've been collecting for years are well and truly immersed in it, and we'll grumble but continue to pay. Somebody new? I fear they'll take one look at the price for a box and walk away.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Gig Harbor, WA

The thing that bothers me about GW price increases is that they appear completely arbitrary, and there is never any discounts or sales. And nothing ever. . .ever. . .gets cheaper.

Very few businesses operate that way. Additionally their overseas pricing also seems completely arbitrary and nonsensical.

   
Made in us
[DCM]
Courageous Space Marine Captain





SoCal

 Grimtuff wrote:
 Rolsheen wrote:
What has the price of some card game got to do with the OP's post?


Because certain people like to compare apples to oranges, or wargames to wine, Ferraris and golf, or wargames to CCGs.



We should only be comparing GW prices to Mantic's, Medge's, Gates of Antares' and the like? Fine. I just put in an order for some Wargames Atlantic IG minis at GW's 2003 price per mini.

   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike





 Excommunicatus wrote:
So... paper tokens and pirated .pdfs but you're paying for Dark Imperium?

Except to deliberately skew the numbers, why?

Because the official starter set for WH40k is Dark Imperium (assuming that you could actually play pick-up games with the content... you cannot), while the official starter sets for MtG are either free decks or theme/event decks in the 10-20€ range. The one making a dishonest comparison was peregrine, who claimed that playing WH40k with pirated rules and proxies was the same as playing magic with real cards.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ishagu wrote:
You're not addressing the fact that 40k can be extremely cheap and you can play kill team for a tiny investment.

I'm bored of the magic discussion. Magic is a card game and not a direct comparison to 40k - there's no painting of miniatures involved. You may as well be comparing 40k to gaming.


You were the person comparing WH40k to golf. So you surrender that your original point was idiotic?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/22 06:13:18


 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch






 argonak wrote:
The thing that bothers me about GW price increases is that they appear completely arbitrary, and there is never any discounts or sales. And nothing ever. . .ever. . .gets cheaper.

Very few businesses operate that way. Additionally their overseas pricing also seems completely arbitrary and nonsensical.



I think very few, if any, companies in the gaming world are capable of operating the way GW can at the moment. They have a target and captive audience. You don't need sales if your products are selling like crazy. There's no point. Only GW knows the full numbers, but I suspect they're good. What other game company can afford to actually have retail stores? (and who else would risk staffing them with a single person). GW plays by their own rules...and it's work for them. No point in changing, unfortunately.

 
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike





AngryAngel80 wrote:
If you play the old formats for competitive MTG, those decks and singles will cost you a pretty penny if you want to have a competitive chance.

The old formats are dying out and you only need all those expensive cards you want to play those old formats competitively. There is no more need to own a black lotus than to own a Warlord Titan.

As well following the standard builds, getting new sets as they drop and following the competitive money cards for the best decks will cost you a good amount in that as well.

As described further up in the thread, you must compare competitive magic to competitive WH40k. In that case, WH40k isn't cheaper either.

Draft is about the only format done regularly that you don't pay a ton for.

Also commander and any casual format. Not even considering pauper.

There are many expensive and recurring expenses for Magic, you don't usually pay it all at the start. Warhammer has a large outlay over a smaller time period however once that is done, it's generally cheaper to maintain one army or the countless magic decks and trading stock to keep up with everything in MTG.

Once again comparing casual WH40k gaming to competitive MtG. For casual MtG investing 60€ per year easily keeps all you commander and 60 card casual decks up to date.

For instance, I've had my guard army pretty much done for years now. I had to add nothing to it to keep up with the current meta trends or have my army usable. Anything I wanted to add to it has been simply for desire and not for need and even then I think I've spent like 200$ over the past two years on it. I assure you if I was keeping up with MTG standard that cost would be easily three or four times as much over the same time period if not more.

So did you keep up with the current meta for WH40k? Did you buy a castellan, smash captains, dawn eagle captains? If not, how is that different from not buying a new standard deck but just keeping the one you have?
Are you sure you aren't you the one seeing this through rose-tinted glasses because your army happens to be one of the most competitive ones and thus needs little to no adjustment?
For me, updating my 6k points of orks to a top tournament standard would cost hundreds of euros, same for my 3k points of death guard. And those have cost me no less than the hundreds of thousands of magic cards I have - despite playing magic twice as long as WH40k.

Draft is simply the cheapest and best example for cheap magic. As for casual decks, sure casual magic decks are cheap but outside private play groups it can be hard to find people to play casual as everyone is much more geared towards standard ideals and all the sweat that brings with it.

Yeah, that's the same for WH40k. Outside of play groups you are bound to find competitive people sooner or later, meaning you need to upgrade the army you built in 7th/with Index rules/before the last CA to compete.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
We used to play Magic during lunch breaks at my old job. It was super cheap to get a deck of cards, less costly than an upscale burrito, and we had games for months. Then some jerk face brought in his tournament deck and shut it all down. Rather than spend money to catch up with the meta or bring our A game or whatever toxic page 5 nonsense, we just stopped playing with him and continued to enjoy near-free MtG.

When I tried to get friends into casual 40k, none would buy the models or books and I had to supply everything. It was not cheap. Even supplying EM4 minis for generic tabletop rulesets costs more than casual Magic. A lot more. The comparison only exists for people with so little chill they think the only way to play is to compete with near-strangers at a store or other venue.


If you need more than a single book to run your army, Just the books will even get close to a top magic deck in standard.
For the price of some starters you could build a top deck here D: And building 2 good decks to play with friends is easy for most magic players.

Also people still bring up page 5 :O it has not even been a thing in forever, and it was all about not being toxic.



 argonak wrote:
The thing that bothers me about GW price increases is that they appear completely arbitrary, and there is never any discounts or sales. And nothing ever. . .ever. . .gets cheaper.

Very few businesses operate that way. Additionally their overseas pricing also seems completely arbitrary and nonsensical.



I would like to point out, that GW does have Discounts in there boxes at times.
And why it may not seem it, GW not doing sales often and in the way a lot of busness do it is actually quite good for the consumer.
Probably would be worth them doing some at times, But the never ending revolving sales can and often is quite bad if your not paying attention.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/22 06:36:27


 
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike





 Peregrine wrote:
And draft isn't even that cheap. You're spending ~$15 per draft at most stores (and if you aren't prize support is nonexistent), so if you're playing in your local FNM every week that's $60/month. If you want to draft more to be competitive that number goes up. And if you want to win at drafting you have to ignore the value of the cards, passing that expensive foil mythic rare in favor of a powerful common your deck needs. So you can forget about extracting full value from those packs you're drafting with, unless you enjoy losing.

Except the vast majority of expensive rare and mything cards are also bombs in draft. Out of all $10+ foils of the current set only two are trash for drafts, and one might be picked anyways.
If you do well enough, you also get packs which you just can hold until your next draft, making it a lot cheaper.
Oh, and many drafts do rare re-picks to handle this exact problem.

Contrast that with the price of playing 40k where $60-100 per month buys you a kit or two, enough that most adults aren't going to have enough free time to finish building and painting more than that within a month. And unlike drafting there's no ongoing cost once you finish building the army. The draft player spends their $720+ per year on drafting and has nothing at the end of it all, only more $15 drafts to buy. The 40k player spends their $720 on a decent starter army and has an army they can keep playing with forever with no expenses outside of rulebook updates.

So much fact-twisting...
- $100 is almost twice as much as the draft costs, and "a kit or two" often enough means "not even a full unit". Building and painting a box that's below $60 is a work for three evening for me, and most people here appear to have much more time than that.
- The "Nothing" you are left with after all those drafts are probably 140+ rares and mythic rares and huge pile of playable commons and commons which easily build into a very decent casual deck and with some investment even into a competitive standard deck.
- Comparing a competitive draft player to a casual 40k player who doesn't give a damn whether his army is competitive - again

A much more accurate analogy would be comparing it to one of the 40k starter sets. Both provide the bare minimum required to play but don't really offer enough to actually compete meaningfully with more established players. For that you'll need more cards/models. Your 40k analogy extended to MtG would mean playing MtG with printed cards rather than official ones, which is almost free. So MtG is still cheaper but they're both in the same ballpark.

My gaming group had a player who got three Mirrodin pre-constructed decks for free at a convention. He played those three decks without investing a single cent once a week for almost five years before leaving for a job. The win rate of those decks is no worse than the win rate of a pile of DI primaris.

No, my analogy was correct. Playing with a free demo deck in MTG is a one-time teaching tool that does not work in normal games. Playing 40k with pirated rules and paper cutouts for models is a one-time teaching tool that does not work in normal games. You can't compare a free teaching demo in MTG to the cost of playing the real game in 40k, which is what you're trying to do.

So using official tools is the same as breaking the law through copyright infringement? That's a stretch, even for you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Rolsheen wrote:
What has the price of some card game got to do with the OP's post?


Someone claimed that we should be lucky because WH40k is one of the cheapest hobbies there is.
I made list of hobbies which are cheaper.
Bunch of 40k veterans got their panties in a twist because MtG was on that list and feel like they have to defend the urban myth of MtG being more expensive than WH40k with twisted facts and fallacies to justify why their hobby is "better".

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/22 06:58:28


 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Jidmah wrote:
Because the official starter set for WH40k is Dark Imperium (assuming that you could actually play pick-up games with the content... you cannot), while the official starter sets for MtG are either free decks or theme/event decks in the 10-20€ range. The one making a dishonest comparison was peregrine, who claimed that playing WH40k with pirated rules and proxies was the same as playing magic with real cards.


Who cares what the "official" starter is? The point is that the free MTG demo decks are not real MTG. They are not legal decks, and they aren't going to win against real decks because WOTC is not dumb enough to give away viable decks for free. They are nothing more than a visual aid for walking someone through the rules as they learn how to play, comparable to showing how 40k works with a pirated pdf and some paper tokens to represent models. The 40k starter set is a viable option to play a real game (remember, Kill Team exists) and start a larger collection, comparable to MTG's for-purchase starter decks and intro bundles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jidmah wrote:
Except the vast majority of expensive rare and mything cards are also bombs in draft.


And? If you're in the third pack and you're taking an off-color bomb rare that you can't play over a strong in-color removal spell you're trying to lose and shouldn't be drafting. Obviously there are cases where you take the valuable card because it is your best option for winning games, but the point is that you can't consider the packs you're drafting with to have any inherent value because the optimal play often conflicts with extracting maximum value from the cards.

- $100 is almost twice as much as the draft costs, and "a kit or two" often enough means "not even a full unit".


It's only twice as much if you assume only one draft per week, not two. At two drafts per week $100 is less than the cost of drafting.

And yes, sometimes you have to buy multiple kits to build a large unit. But that's not always the case. An IG squad is a single infantry kit, 1/3 of a HWS box, and maybe some conversion bits from the pile. A Rhino is a single kit. A Tau crisis suit squad is a single kit. Etc. There are plenty of units where a single kit is all you need.

Building and painting a box that's below $60 is a work for three evening for me, and most people here appear to have much more time than that.


Maybe if you're painting to a basic tabletop standard and not doing anything too challenging. In my experience a single box is more like 5-10 evenings at minimum, spread out over a month or more because I have a lot of other things to do. Maybe if you're minimally employed and have no other hobbies or family commitments or anything like that you can build multiple kits per month, but I can't imagine that's the standard.

- The "Nothing" you are left with after all those drafts are probably 140+ rares and mythic rares and huge pile of playable commons and commons which easily build into a very decent casual deck and with some investment even into a competitive standard deck.


Assuming you rare drafted instead of trying to win, and assuming you finish this investment before the format rotates and it's all worthless. If you're trying to build a constructed deck buying packs is only the second-worst option available because buying packs and then drafting with them is even worse. If you have any interest in constructed then you buy specific cards online and avoid the RNG at all costs.

- Comparing a competitive draft player to a casual 40k player who doesn't give a damn whether his army is competitive - again


It's entirely fair. I'm not talking about high-level competitive players who spend obscene piles of money on drafting many times per week, this is about the typical FNM player who shows up to their local store regularly and wants to have a decent chance of winning. The comparable 40k player is perfectly capable of doing that without buying a new army multiple times per year to chase the metagame like the high-level competitive players.

My gaming group had a player who got three Mirrodin pre-constructed decks for free at a convention. He played those three decks without investing a single cent once a week for almost five years before leaving for a job. The win rate of those decks is no worse than the win rate of a pile of DI primaris.


And my gaming group had a player who got some free space marines from a guy who was quitting and played with those marines for years. And she had a win rate comparable to a MTG player trying to use some preconstructed decks without investing any additional money.

So using official tools is the same as breaking the law through copyright infringement? That's a stretch, even for you.


Shrug. Bury your head in the sand and pretend that more than 5% of 40k players never pirate rulebooks if you want, but in the real world virtually everyone has a drive full of pirated copies and the first advice they're going to give a new player is "download the rulebook and see if it's interesting".

PS: lots of people also drive over the speed limit, smoke pot, etc, even though those things are illegal.

Someone claimed that we should be lucky because WH40k is one of the cheapest hobbies there is.


And it's a true claim. All of my non-40k hobbies are more expensive than 40k. My airplane cost $45,000 to buy and at least $1,500/month in ongoing costs. My camera gear is at least $2-3,000, plus the cost of travel to the locations I'm photographing. I just got back from a ~$2,000 hiking trip and I'll probably do it again next year if the schedules line up. Hell, I've even got thousands of dollars in MTG cards sitting in a box because they have too much sentimental value to ever recover that investment. The only thing that gets 40k even close to those numbers is chasing down OOP kits on ebay.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/22 07:36:04


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in au
Deadshot Weapon Moderati





Newcastle NSW

 Jidmah wrote:

 Rolsheen wrote:
What has the price of some card game got to do with the OP's post?


Someone claimed that we should be lucky because WH40k is one of the cheapest hobbies there is.
I made list of hobbies which are cheaper.
Bunch of 40k veterans got their panties in a twist because MtG was on that list and feel like they have to defend the urban myth of MtG being more expensive than WH40k with twisted facts and fallacies to justify why their hobby is "better".


So it was you who derailed this thread, please stop talking about some card game. I'm sure there is a more appropriate thread you can go to where you'll be welcomed with open arms.

The Four Winds Tribe has returned to claim the Underhive for House Escher


Deathwatch Kill Team: W9 D0 L2
 
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike





OK.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut








Honestly give it up sadly most people lurking on these forums are so used to getting reemed by GW that they now enjoy it’s a strange mix of battered wife/Stockholm syndrome mixed with the sunk cost fallacy and a touch of elitism because they happy to drop £1000’s of pounds on mass produced plastic toy soldiers.

GW said it best years ago “ our customers are special and unusual people”

Your last point is especially laughable and comical, because not only the 7th ed Valkyrie shown dumber things (like being able to throw the troopers without parachutes out of its hatches, no harm done) - Irbis 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






SeanDrake wrote:


Honestly give it up sadly most people lurking on these forums are so used to getting reemed by GW that they now enjoy it’s a strange mix of battered wife/Stockholm syndrome mixed with the sunk cost fallacy and a touch of elitism because they happy to drop £1000’s of pounds on mass produced plastic toy soldiers.

GW said it best years ago “ our customers are special and unusual people”


Alternatively, 40k just isn't that expensive if you're an adult with a decent job. I can buy new 40k stuff as fast as I can paint it without having any effect on the budget, and GW cutting their prices in half would have zero impact on my buying habits.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Not as Good as a Minion






Brisbane

Don't bring that attitude in here. We are a forum filled with all ages and all means, there's no place for "just be richer" here.

Thank you

I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own... 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






 motyak wrote:
Don't bring that attitude in here. We are a forum filled with all ages and all means, there's no place for "just be richer" here.

Thank you


Guy above him compared GW customers to beaten wives...
But the somewhat obvious comment that if you have a decent & stable salary you can afford to pay for miniatures is somehow an attack against poor people?
   
Made in ca
Eternally-Stimulated Slaanesh Dreadnought





Rzhev

The beaten wives comment should have attracted mod attention for sure, on a forum where the rules are applied logically and consistently. This is Dakka, however, and rules are applied by throwing a dart at a board.

Regarding a decent and stable salary (whatever that means), the mod's explicit words were to not bring "that attitude" meaning "just be richer" in here. At no point did they say you couldn't make the connection between being a good little wage-slave and buying plastic crack.

The Fall of Kronstaat IV
Война Народная | Voyna Narodnaya | The People's War - 2,898pts painted (updated 18/09/19)
Волшебная Сказка | Volshebnaya Skazka | A Fairy Tale (updated 07/10/19, ep9 - Разорение | Razoreniye | Downfall)
Kabal of The Violet Heart (updated 18/09/19)

You know, if there's one thing I've learnt from being in the Army, it's never ignore a pooh-pooh. I knew a Major who got pooh-poohed; made the mistake of ignoring the pooh-pooh. He pooh-poohed it! Fatal error! 'Cause it turned out all along that the soldier who pooh-poohed him had been pooh-poohing a lot of other officers who pooh-poohed their pooh-poohs. In the end, we had to disband the regiment.
 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 motyak wrote:
Don't bring that attitude in here. We are a forum filled with all ages and all means, there's no place for "just be richer" here.

Thank you


Good thing I never said "just be richer". Someone made a ridiculous claim about how everyone who is ok with GW prices is unreasonable and irrational, I pointed out a legitimate reason for not caring about GW prices. I have plenty of sympathy for people who are stuck in terrible low-paying jobs, but that doesn't change the fact that lots of us are making enough that 40k is a cheap hobby and GW's prices don't matter.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Peregrine wrote:
SeanDrake wrote:


Honestly give it up sadly most people lurking on these forums are so used to getting reemed by GW that they now enjoy it’s a strange mix of battered wife/Stockholm syndrome mixed with the sunk cost fallacy and a touch of elitism because they happy to drop £1000’s of pounds on mass produced plastic toy soldiers.

GW said it best years ago “ our customers are special and unusual people”


Alternatively, 40k just isn't that expensive if you're an adult with a decent job. I can buy new 40k stuff as fast as I can paint it without having any effect on the budget, and GW cutting their prices in half would have zero impact on my buying habits.



Ding,ding,ding we have a winner proving my point only took 20min, defends prices while making implications about my age and swinging his epeen about his salary. As a nice touch demonstrates questionable judgements about his buying habits “special and unusual as GW would say.

As for your crass comments I guess you could interpret them as saying if your a man child with a job and no commitments such as a family or a home to pay for then you can spend a large amount on mass produced plastic toy soldiers, however as an Englishman and a gentleman I would never try to comment on the personnel situation of another poster.

I however will say that I have socks older than most GW customers and have a nice job with a family and my own home, as such that gives me a certain perspective on value. I will say that my gaming PC which is the basis of my other main hobby probably cost more than the average annual salary in the US, just recently I have added a rtx 2080ti gfx cards for £1000, an Alienware 34” ulrawidescreen monitor £1200 and a new Samsung SSD for £108. So I think we can agree I could pay GW excessive overinflated prices but I have the willpower not to oh and that is how you swing your epeen


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Peregrine wrote:
 motyak wrote:
Don't bring that attitude in here. We are a forum filled with all ages and all means, there's no place for "just be richer" here.

Thank you


Good thing I never said "just be richer". Someone made a ridiculous claim about how everyone who is ok with GW prices is unreasonable and irrational, I pointed out a legitimate reason for not caring about GW prices. I have plenty of sympathy for people who are stuck in terrible low-paying jobs, but that doesn't change the fact that lots of us are making enough that 40k is a cheap hobby and GW's prices don't matter.



Wow even for perri you absolutely feel the condescension dripping off that comment.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/22 16:06:47


Your last point is especially laughable and comical, because not only the 7th ed Valkyrie shown dumber things (like being able to throw the troopers without parachutes out of its hatches, no harm done) - Irbis 
   
 
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