Where on earth is the IH/RG FAQs?

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**Aenar**

At 110 points Feirros is still very good imho. Signum array, repair, shoot and hit in melee like a brick. He's good.

**EricDominus**

TheAvengingKnee wrote:
Quasistellar wrote:
With ironstone and repair nerfs, I’m not really sure the invuln for vehicles really needed removed. This change effectively removes Feirros from tournament play consideration IMO.

This removes him from normal game consideration, he’s trash now, if they dropped him 20 points maybe he’d be worth it.

Azrael wants a small talk with you.

**Orodhen**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Quasistellar wrote:
With ironstone and repair nerfs, I’m not really sure the invuln for vehicles really needed removed. This change effectively removes Feirros from tournament play consideration IMO.

He's only 110 points and is quite effective all around. He just won't be a deathball master.

There's no way he was properly priced with his original rules at 110 points. Now he fits in line with other named characters, and still at a decent price.

**VladimirHerzog**

TheAvengingKnee wrote:
Quasistellar wrote:
With ironstone and repair nerfs, I’m not really sure the invuln for vehicles really needed removed. This change effectively removes Feirros from tournament play consideration IMO.

This removes him from normal game consideration, he’s trash now, if they dropped him 20 points maybe he’d be worth it.

he still heals for a flat 3 and he can give an invuln to centurions/aggressors, he's perfectly fine at his pts cost. with the previous aura, he was wayy undercosted.

**topaxygouroun i**

TheAvengingKnee wrote:
Quasistellar wrote:
With ironstone and repair nerfs, I’m not really sure the invuln for vehicles really needed removed. This change effectively removes Feirros from tournament play consideration IMO.

This removes him from normal game consideration, he’s trash now, if they dropped him 20 points maybe he’d be worth it.

Not sure that you are aware how much other armies' characters are priced.

**tneva82**

Necron overlords look at him with envy.

**Quasistellar**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Quasistellar wrote:
With ironstone and repair nerfs, I’m not really sure the invuln for vehicles really needed removed. This change effectively removes Feirros from tournament play consideration IMO.

He's only 110 points and is quite effective all around. He just won't be a deathball master.

Effective at what? Why would you take him over a captain with chapter master strat? 5++ invuln on marine infantry isn’t exactly great. He’s effectively just a tech marine that can repair MAYBE an extra couple wounds and give BS2+ to one unit. Remember he himself only has a 5++ invuln and WS3+, so he isn’t exactly amazing in combat. I really can’t see using him for anything but the love of the model.

**Galas**

EricDominus wrote:
TheAvengingKnee wrote:
Quasistellar wrote:
With ironstone and repair nerfs, I’m not really sure the invuln for vehicles really needed removed. This change effectively removes Feirros from tournament play consideration IMO.

This removes him from normal game consideration, he’s trash now, if they dropped him 20 points maybe he’d be worth it.

Azrael wants a small talk with you.

Yeah, lol. Calling Feirros useless even in normal play is just typical dakkadakka hysteria. Hes an absolute beast of a support character, that can even defend himself in meele.

You know how much I pay for a damm Cadre Fireblade and what he actually does?!

Quasistellar wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Quasistellar wrote:
With ironstone and repair nerfs, I’m not really sure the invuln for vehicles really needed removed. This change effectively removes Feirros from tournament play consideration IMO.

He's only 110 points and is quite effective all around. He just won't be a deathball master.

Effective at what? Why would you take him over a captain with chapter master strat? 5++ invuln on marine infantry isn’t exactly great. He’s effectively just a tech marine that can repair MAYBE an extra couple wounds and give BS2+ to one unit. Remember he himself only has a 5++ invuln and WS3+, so he isn’t exactly amazing in combat. I really can’t see using him for anything but the love of the model.

He shoots better, buffs better, heals, and is better in meele than a captain with chapter master strat. And does not cost 3 CP.

**VladimirHerzog**

Quasistellar wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Quasistellar wrote:
With ironstone and repair nerfs, I’m not really sure the invuln for vehicles really needed removed. This change effectively removes Feirros from tournament play consideration IMO.

He's only 110 points and is quite effective all around. He just won't be a deathball master.

Effective at what? Why would you take him over a captain with chapter master strat? 5++ invuln on marine infantry isn’t exactly great. He’s effectively just a tech marine that can repair MAYBE an extra couple wounds and give BS2+ to one unit. Remember he himself only has a 5++ invuln and WS3+, so he isn’t exactly amazing in combat. I really can’t see using him for anything but the love of the model.

He always heals a flat 3, and he can heal two vehicles.

giving BS 2+ to a vehicle is super strong, especially since they get free rerolls on their 1's

Giving an invuln to big infantry (aggressors / centurions) isnt nothing.

His gun and axe can actually kill stuff

hes super tanky compared to most non storm shield HQs because of his gravis armor.

Compare that to a tech-priest Dominus, which isnt a bad HQ already.

**Karol**

repulsors without inv, are going to be dead too fast IMO. Maybe flyers will do better, but still it is a big difference vs some armies.

**Not Online!!!**

Still got that 6+++ right?

**TheAvengingKnee**

Karol wrote:
repulsors without inv, are going to be dead too fast IMO. Maybe flyers will do better, but still it is a big difference vs some armies.

I have a feeling you are right, lots of flyer spam lists.

Also this makes me very glad I didn’t buy some of the newer units pre faq.

**Quasistellar**

I just think that these repair + invuln nerfs are a little too much when done all at once. Feirros wasn’t the problem. It’s the doctrine + calculated fury that’s the problem.

The cp increase on strats was great and needed, though.

**bullyboy**

be careful with the flyer spam, I have a feeling this will be addressed in CA as a combat for Eldar armies too.
Overall, this is a great response from GW, even though we shouldn't have been here in first place. If people are crying because they bought a ton of models chasing the meta....well, you should damn well know better. If too good to be true, caveat emptor.
Hey, at least you got a solid 2 weeks run at being overly busted, right?

**Aaranis**

Saying Feirros is useless at 110 pts when Cawl costs 190 and a near-useless Dominus is 90 is beyond insane. 40k is dead to me for now, it's unplayable. Played a 2v2 game yesterday against UM and IF and they basically destroyed us both with just bolter Aggressors with Guilliman and IF bolter Centurions. Not even remotely fun to wait for their 600 dice rolls just to roll 300 saves and lose everything.

**Xenomancers**

DominayTrix wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Their own playtesters aren't incompetent by any stretch of the imagination.

They just aren't playing with ITC or other common 'tournament'(read: house) rules...and frankly, I've been thinking for awhile that the external playtesters are using this as a way to get a leg up for tournaments.

There's some clear evidence that their playtesters are either braindead or completely incompetent. Look at the infinite exploding 6s ruling that somehow made it through. Look at the Tau Tigershark AX-1 that had a macro weapon on a non-titanic model that has a minimum move speed with the page number for where you can find the macro rules that explain how that model is literally NEVER able to fire that gun. There are some problems that are functionally broken without interacting with any other rules outside of their own and a playtester following the RAW would find the problems immediately. Not a single playtester checked to see if it had the Titanic keyword? Not a single playtester applied the FAQ to the Imperial Fist Bolter Drill RAW?

This is completely different from "Castellans don't need a point increase" and going "just kidding 100 pt increase" a few months later. Balance is subjective and is effected by tons of outside variables like ITC rules, ETC rules, and player skill. They mess up basic functional things and that's a playtesting issue at its core unless they stopped asking "does it work?" before they ask "does it work as intended?"

There was a tyranid monster in the imperial armor index that doubled your strength on an attack on 6 to wound.....Double strength on a 6 TO WOUND. lol.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
repulsors without inv, are going to be dead too fast IMO. Maybe flyers will do better, but still it is a big difference vs some armies.

Yes...Ironhands still have the option to take a deredeo dread though...Which is also better than everyone elses deredeo too. Realloy though - respulsors without a -1 damage aren't worth their cost.

**Ordana**

Not Online!!! wrote:
Still got that 6+++ right?

a 5++ to ignore multiple wounds with a single roll vs a 6+++ per wound. Its a big, and needed, nerf.

**Luke_Prowler**

The closest comparison would be a MABig Mek with a KFF, who is more expensive than Feirros and the Spess Mahreen is still better in every way barring only be being able to give the 5++ to infantry.

Besides, I chiefly remember a lot of people clamoring about how space marine infantry needs invulnerability saves to be good... and then saying invulnerability saves aren't good on space marines once Feirros was revealed...

**Daedalus81**

Luke_Prowler wrote:
The closest comparison would be a MABig Mek with a KFF, who is more expensive than Feirros and the Spess Mahreen is still better in every way barring only be being able to give the 5++ to infantry.

Besides, I chiefly remember a lot of people clamoring about how space marine infantry needs invulnerability saves to be good... and then saying invulnerability saves aren't good on space marines once Feirros was revealed...

Its nuts, right? He's the perfect guy to lead dead-hard primaris marines and dreadnoughts into melee.

**ERJAK**

Quasistellar wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Quasistellar wrote:
With ironstone and repair nerfs, I’m not really sure the invuln for vehicles really needed removed. This change effectively removes Feirros from tournament play consideration IMO.

He's only 110 points and is quite effective all around. He just won't be a deathball master.

Effective at what? Why would you take him over a captain with chapter master strat? 5++ invuln on marine infantry isn’t exactly great. He’s effectively just a tech marine that can repair MAYBE an extra couple wounds and give BS2+ to one unit. Remember he himself only has a 5++ invuln and WS3+, so he isn’t exactly amazing in combat. I really can’t see using him for anything but the love of the model.

Because taking a chapter master in an IH list is already a waste of points and cp. Most of the good units have 2+ rerolling already. His melee is decent with the relic axe but now that 's THREE CP you're spending on him (or you can throw away 40pts on a Thammer, not great either) and you'll do more damage over the course of a game with Feirros's shooting than the captain's melee most of the time(5-6 turns versus maybe 3) and Feirros can still melee pretty well.

If you're taking a captain over feirros you're doing it wrong. Now you might take a LIBRARIAN over feirros, but that's a different discussion.

**Xenomancers**

Luke_Prowler wrote:
The closest comparison would be a MABig Mek with a KFF, who is more expensive than Feirros and the Spess Mahreen is still better in every way barring only be being able to give the 5++ to infantry.

Besides, I chiefly remember a lot of people clamoring about how space marine infantry needs invulnerability saves to be good... and then saying invulnerability saves aren't good on space marines once Feirros was revealed...

I believe you get a 5++ aura for ors for like 70ish points. It is also OP but less of an issue because they dont also have a billion free rules like ironhands did.

The 5++ for infantry is still really good.

**Suzuteo**

I woke up, heard the news from my friend, felt sad, went back to sleep. I woke up, heard the news from my friend, and for a moment, I did not know whether I was dreaming or if I had gone utterly insane.

**Xenomancers**

ERJAK wrote:
Quasistellar wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Quasistellar wrote:
With ironstone and repair nerfs, I’m not really sure the invuln for vehicles really needed removed. This change effectively removes Feirros from tournament play consideration IMO.

He's only 110 points and is quite effective all around. He just won't be a deathball master.

Effective at what? Why would you take him over a captain with chapter master strat? 5++ invuln on marine infantry isn’t exactly great. He’s effectively just a tech marine that can repair MAYBE an extra couple wounds and give BS2+ to one unit. Remember he himself only has a 5++ invuln and WS3+, so he isn’t exactly amazing in combat. I really can’t see using him for anything but the love of the model.

Because taking a chapter master in an IH list is already a waste of points and cp. Most of the good units have 2+ rerolling already. His melee is decent with the relic axe but now that 's THREE CP you're spending on him (or you can throw away 40pts on a Thammer, not great either) and you'll do more damage over the course of a game with Feirros's shooting than the captain's melee most of the time(5-6 turns versus maybe 3) and Feirros can still melee pretty well.

If you're taking a captain over feirros you're doing it wrong. Now you might take a LIBRARIAN over feirros, but that's a different discussion.

No it's not...you overwatch on 5's rerolling. You are literally unchargeable. Plus with neg to hit modifiers are still quite popular and reroll ALL hits is big vs them. For like 78 points and 2 CP you can get all of that...It's not auto include like another marine army but it still offers a lot of benefits...not a waste.

**Quasistellar**

Luke_Prowler wrote:
The closest comparison would be a MABig Mek with a KFF, who is more expensive than Feirros and the Spess Mahreen is still better in every way barring only be being able to give the 5++ to infantry.

Besides, I chiefly remember a lot of people clamoring about how space marine infantry needs invulnerability saves to be good... and then saying invulnerability saves aren't good on space marines once Feirros was revealed...

Um, I think people were almost universally referring to vehicles, and NOT infantry.

5++ save on 3+ (2+ in cover) armor save infantry isn't all that amazing compared to how a 5++ affects orks. Don't get me wrong, it's not nothing, to be sure, but you're taking crazy pills if you think a save that only comes into play on -3 or more weapons is as good as a save that actually increases the base save of a model.

Anyway, I tire of arguing the point, as what's done is done. IDK why people construe what I'm saying as "iron hands didn't need nerfs". Oh wait yes I do, it's the internet and it's forums, lol!

**Not Online!!!**

Quasistellar wrote:
Luke_Prowler wrote:
The closest comparison would be a MABig Mek with a KFF, who is more expensive than Feirros and the Spess Mahreen is still better in every way barring only be being able to give the 5++ to infantry.

Besides, I chiefly remember a lot of people clamoring about how space marine infantry needs invulnerability saves to be good... and then saying invulnerability saves aren't good on space marines once Feirros was revealed...

Um, I think people were almost universally referring to vehicles, and NOT infantry.

5++ save on 3+ (2+ in cover) armor save infantry isn't all that amazing compared to how a 5++ affects orks. Don't get me wrong, it's not nothing, to be sure, but you're taking crazy pills if you think a save that only comes into play on -3 or more weapons is as good as a save that actually increases the base save of a model.

Anyway, I tire of arguing the point, as what's done is done. IDK why people construe what I'm saying as "iron hands didn't need nerfs". Oh wait yes I do, it's the internet and it's forums, lol!

You still get 2 Warpsmiths with an invulnerable combined and better equipment for less points.
I don't see the issue.

**tneva82**

Necron overlord gives +1 to hit, advance and charge move(last one real handy for army with crappy h2h units...) for INFANTRY. No 5++ around, meagre h2h ability, no good shooting ability...Yey. Amazing character!

Necrons would kill for character like that. But yeah guess marine characters needs to be uber super mega good to not be worthless junk

**SeanDrake**

Aww shame that whiny bitch itc players masquerading as play testers just gutted an entire army so the meta could stay the same and favour themselves.

Expect the next batch of tournaments to e back being won by 95% elder and imp soup and not a gak will be given by the community as they have not been told to be upset.

Meh honestly makes me glad I don't play 8th unless I have too the game was pretty gak when GW were ot being manipulated by an outside bussiness

Rofl

**Ishagu**

Feirros is still undercosted, but this is better.

Something needs to be done about mixing Doctrines and traits.

**Continuity**

SeanDrake wrote:
Aww shame that whiny bitch itc players masquerading as play testers just gutted an entire army so the meta could stay the same and favour themselves.

Expect the next batch of tournaments to e back being won by 95% elder and imp soup and not a gak will be given by the community as they have not been told to be upset.

Meh honestly makes me glad I don't play 8th unless I have too the game was pretty gak when GW were ot being manipulated by an outside bussiness

Rofl

It's true, before the FAQ when I saw my opponent pull out his 3 IH repulsors death castle against my chaos marines, all I thought was "thank god we are playing maelstrom and not ITC"

**Waaaghpower**

Continuity wrote:
SeanDrake wrote:
Aww shame that whiny bitch itc players masquerading as play testers just gutted an entire army so the meta could stay the same and favour themselves.

Expect the next batch of tournaments to e back being won by 95% elder and imp soup and not a gak will be given by the community as they have not been told to be upset.

Meh honestly makes me glad I don't play 8th unless I have too the game was pretty gak when GW were ot being manipulated by an outside bussiness

Rofl

It's true, before the FAQ when I saw my opponent pull out his 3 IH repulsors death castle against my chaos marines, all I thought was "thank god we are playing maelstrom and not ITC"

Can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but yeah. Maelstrom is way less good for Iron Hands than ITC. Iron Hands are still great no matter the game mode, but they're much better when the rules give you vast amounts of points for just sitting back and shooting.
(Seriously. In an ITC game, if you can sit on one solitary objective and spray bullets every turn, assuming you picked your secondaries properly and the game goes to turn 6, you can still get 30 out of 42 possible victory points with very little effort. For every turn left after you wipe the board, you get an extra two points. This ruleset massively favors any army that can maximize DPS and durability over map control, which is incidentally what Iron Hands excel at.)