Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
I'll challenge you to play pre-nerf iron hands in maelstrom, because the BFS list would have zero problems running you over.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SeanDrake wrote: Aww shame that whiny bitch itc players masquerading as play testers just gutted an entire army so the meta could stay the same and favour themselves.
Expect the next batch of tournaments to e back being won by 95% elder and imp soup and not a gak will be given by the community as they have not been told to be upset.
Meh honestly makes me glad I don't play 8th unless I have too the game was pretty gak when GW were ot being manipulated by an outside bussiness
Rofl
I love people who dont play that think they have informed opinions.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/17 22:41:36
As someone who's played vs IH in 3 separate events, all of which were different. Maelstrom, ITC and pure house rules. It didn't matter what missions we were playing. Literally didn't matter one bit. I got railroaded all 3 times. I was playing my Chaos Knights.
Yeah, I can safely say ITC has nothing to do with their power. A buddy of mine brought a mid-tier IH army against my CSM and I just got pubstomped by turn 3, in an eternal war game.
Smirrors wrote: Ferrios becomes a very situational pick not an auto-include which is a great thing.
Even IH flyers which are good are not necessarily an auto include.
Which IMO is exactly what a special character should be - something you base your list and theme around as being situational for what you're trying to build around, not an auto-include
I wonder how many black primed vehicles are going up on ebay atm?
"Courage and Honour. I hear you murmur these words in the mist, in their wake I hear your hearts beat harder with false conviction seeking to convince yourselves that a brave death has meaning.
There is no courage to be found here my nephews, no honour to be had. Your souls will join the trillion others in the mist shrieking uselessly to eternity, weeping for the empire you could not save.
To the unfaithful, I bring holy plagues ripe with enlightenment. To the devout, I bring the blessing of immortality through the kiss of sacred rot.
And to you, new-born sons of Gulliman, to you flesh crafted puppets of a failing Imperium I bring the holiest gift of all.... Silence."
- Mortarion, The Death Lord, The Reaper of Men, Daemon Primarch of Nurgle
It is actually good to see Games Workshop receiving feedback players' community and come out with quick results.
It would have been unimaginable during the heyday of pre-White Dwarf Ynnari and pre-nerf Knight-Castellans.
I hope Games Workshop could produce similar results in the future whenever any faction, not just Iron Hands, performs far better than other factions competitively.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/18 01:21:41
Sagittarii Orientalis wrote: It is actually good to see Games Workshop receiving feedback players' community and come out with quick results.
It would have been unimaginable during the heyday of pre-White Dwarf Ynnari and pre-nerf Knight-Castellans.
I hope Games Workshop could produce similar results in the future whenever any faction, not just Iron Hands, performs far better than other factions competitively.
I really hope this is a watershed moment for the hysterical types.
There has been an increase of toxic people needling at the game since the IH codex dropped - trying to gloat in their self-justifications of their age old hatred. A number of them don't even play the game. They just came to pick over what they thought was a rotting corpse.
Finally, we get to see that the community has power and GW is becoming responsive. Finally, lazy posts about GW not making enough money on the kits can die.
I'm not sure that follows. Showing the community has power and GW will 'be responsive' demonstrates that hysteria works and being reasonable doesn't.
If anything your 'watershed moment' is launching point for MORE hysteria.
It something I'd hate to see, but I don't see this as anything about gloating, 'age old hatred' or 'rotting corpses.' Just GW giving in to pressure. While the rules change was overall positive this time, there isn't any guarantee it will be next time.
Voss wrote: It something I'd hate to see, but I don't see this as anything about gloating, 'age old hatred' or 'rotting corpses.' Just GW giving in to pressure. While the rules change was overall positive this time, there isn't any guarantee it will be next time.
I simply hope players to show same degree of enthusiasm when balance problem rises above the surface in the future.
Be it Imperial Fists, Salamanders, Aeldari flyers and grotesques after Psychic Awakening, etc.
If not, then perhaps people were more concerned about Iron Hands being a momentary outlier rather than the whole state of the balance.
Voss wrote: I'm not sure that follows. Showing the community has power and GW will 'be responsive' demonstrates that hysteria works and being reasonable doesn't.
Agreed. Reasonable feedback is often ignored. Hysteria CAN'T be ignored, even when it is unwarranted.
Voss wrote: I'm not sure that follows. Showing the community has power and GW will 'be responsive' demonstrates that hysteria works and being reasonable doesn't.
Agreed. Reasonable feedback is often ignored. Hysteria CAN'T be ignored, even when it is unwarranted.
Hysteria is even easier to ignore. The only reason this got changed at all is because we had just a crap ton of actual evidence backing up the IH being OP as balls (As well as rumors stating that there was a miscommunication with the playtesters that had a lot of them on the horn to GW after the book dropped).
I think people forget that literally every change that's ever been made to the game has been met with hysteria(ESPECIALLY on dakka). There was a period of time where people were 100% sure that the Sisters of battle beta codex was going to be the end of all space marines because of blessed bolters, and look how that turned out. Pre-8th ed was entirely hysteria top to bottom and it didn't change anything until there was actual data to back things up.
Also, just as a side bar, being emphatic in your declarations isn't hysteria. The guy who went through all tournament statistics post IH launch and found out they had a 78% win rate was pretty emphatic about them being OP, but that wasn't hysteria at all.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/18 03:52:40
Voss wrote: I'm not sure that follows. Showing the community has power and GW will 'be responsive' demonstrates that hysteria works and being reasonable doesn't.
Agreed. Reasonable feedback is often ignored. Hysteria CAN'T be ignored, even when it is unwarranted.
Hysteria is even easier to ignore. The only reason this got changed at all is because we had just a crap ton of actual evidence backing up the IH being OP as balls (As well as rumors stating that there was a miscommunication with the playtesters that had a lot of them on the horn to GW after the book dropped).
I think people forget that literally every change that's ever been made to the game has been met with hysteria(ESPECIALLY on dakka). There was a period of time where people were 100% sure that the Sisters of battle beta codex was going to be the end of all space marines because of blessed bolters, and look how that turned out. Pre-8th ed was entirely hysteria top to bottom and it didn't change anything until there was actual data to back things up.
Also, just as a side bar, being emphatic in your declarations isn't hysteria. The guy who went through all tournament statistics post IH launch and found out they had a 78% win rate was pretty emphatic about them being OP, but that wasn't hysteria at all.
Being rational is not hysteria. I was certain they were OP as well.
There's a difference between people being upset and letting GW know and posts like I listed on page 4.
It's also not the first time GW reacted on feedback in 8th. We got Emperor's Children and World Eater Cult troops because of that for example, which were also very good changes. And that was quite at the start of the edition. People acting like this is something new have a very short memory.
Warhammer 40,000 wrote:So, we have an internal rules team and around 20 playtesters. Lets say, they all play 3 games a week with a new Codex. That's around 40 games being played a week. So, perhaps 100-120 games get played in the playtest period. They catch LOADs of things that need tweaking, and discuss points values, how rules work together, the way they interact with various enemies etc.
Release day rolls round. We sell (picking a number out of the air) 50,000 copies of Codex: Orks. That means 50,000 games being played on day one. Maybe another 50,000 games being played day 2.
In 2 days, the community has played 100,000 games or more, against every possible enemy, and every possible scenario. They spot a few things our playtesters didn't (it's a vast and complex game after all!) and pass it on to us at 40kfaq@gwplc.com.
Our rules writers, eager to make sure everyone's gaming experience is as good as it can be, take those questions and produce these FAQ documents.
For our rules team and playtesters to get through 100,000 games, they would need to play 3 games a week for almost 5 years. We reckoned you guys didn't want to wait that long, you see!
So some seemingly obvious things slip through. Is it due to incompetence, lack of due diligence, work load or some other reason? I do not know.
So is that to mean that 3 games a week is really all they can stomach of the game they play test ? As well I call total BS on some of that PR hot air. Some of these things, on their face just scream OP and they did from game 1. I'm talking core rules and not just the marines supplements. Maybe they should find the time to play like a game a day for the week ? That I think might help a little bit.
Well 20 people each using the new codex 3 times a week is 60, so not sure how they got 40 there. But that post is in response to new books, specifically the most recent release.
Bear in mind those 20 playtesters will work across all gw games probably and need to also regression test the older factiona for balance ch ages or new rule adjustments ala chapter approved. I agree 40 a week with the new product is fairly low for what you imagine, but when the reality of normal working hours and other factors like other games come into it, that's a decent effort.
It's lazy effort when being play testers is part of their job, do some over time to grind out them games. Hire more play testers with all the super expensive new kit money they are pulling in. If they want to say they put out a quality top tier product they should actually put out that level of effort in all the quality. Not say how they give an ok effort to try and kind of half heart it so it's ok. Their prices aren't ok prices.
I suggest they use some of that money they save by not having an editor to hire more play testers who actually want to work hard at it.
Wow, who says they dont work hard at it, who says those playtesters aren't full time playtesters? You have more of an issue with the price than the rules it seems.
Imagine you have to play 1 game of sigmar narrative 1 game open play and 1 game of matched, then a meeting engagements game. Oh then do the same with 40k, an open, a narrative and then a matched play with an army, then an apoc game, then a kill team game. Then do that for all armies, on a 37.5 hour week.
If all they can pump out is 3 games a week, I can safely say they are not working that hard. I can say this as I play games of 40k, and various other ones. I can also say if I had said job I would be quite eager to put the best data out there for the customers. I have issue with the price when you should get what you pay for. If they want to run it top dollar, they should be giving top quality, that's how it works. If it was cheap, I could at least say, " eh, you know you get what you pay for. " This isn't cheap but that has little to do with their lack of end results. I don't think you needed much playing with say IH to see, hey, there's a problem here.
Also, why would you ever need to play test open play ? That whole point of that is anything goes, if there is anything wrong with it, the players literally have all the agency to fix it. Frankly, I think most players of the game wouldn't mind over time as a GW play tester, I'd even relish it because I'd like to know things like this don't happen and I could say, honestly, I did my very best. GW has a habit of putting out excuses and never really says they will do better. I just can't believe so many people want to give them a pass when if results ended up this borked for most of us, we'd be fired, or at the very least a stern warning. Why is it that the bigger the company the less you expect from them ? It's really boggling and probably why they get away with it, people
You don't need to be a game designer to know when mistakes were made, you don't need to program a game to realize if it sucks. I'd go so far as to say most of the player base that comments on here has as much experience or more I'd say than some of these play testers with the product over the decades of its life. At least more than enough to warrant an objective view point on what is working and not.
At the end, would just be great if they ever said " Hey, we're sorry, we'll fix it and make sure these issues don't happen again and if they do, we'll admit it and work on it. " Instead all it end up being is excuses and shrugs and " Hey, we tried ! "
Edit: Glad to see GW pumped the brakes on the IH a bit. Well done.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/18 05:49:53
SeanDrake wrote: Aww shame that whiny bitch itc players masquerading as play testers just gutted an entire army so the meta could stay the same and favour themselves.
Expect the next batch of tournaments to e back being won by 95% elder and imp soup and not a gak will be given by the community as they have not been told to be upset.
Meh honestly makes me glad I don't play 8th unless I have too the game was pretty gak when GW were ot being manipulated by an outside bussiness
Rofl
Right having one army dominating is obviously so good. But guess entitled marine players feel if they don't win automatically game is broken.
SeanDrake wrote: Aww shame that whiny bitch itc players masquerading as play testers just gutted an entire army so the meta could stay the same and favour themselves.
Expect the next batch of tournaments to e back being won by 95% elder and imp soup and not a gak will be given by the community as they have not been told to be upset.
Meh honestly makes me glad I don't play 8th unless I have too the game was pretty gak when GW were ot being manipulated by an outside bussiness
Rofl
Right having one army dominating is obviously so good. But guess entitled marine players feel if they don't win automatically game is broken.
Just mute the donkey, it admits it does not play, it's just braying for attention.
Daedalus81 wrote: I really hope this is a watershed moment for the hysterical types.
There has been an increase of toxic people needling at the game since the IH codex dropped - trying to gloat in their self-justifications of their age old hatred. A number of them don't even play the game. They just came to pick over what they thought was a rotting corpse.
Finally, we get to see that the community has power and GW is becoming responsive. Finally, lazy posts about GW not making enough money on the kits can die.
But we all know they won't.
It might be worth archiving the most hysterical and shrill quotes from threads like this, for the next time.
"The 75mm gun is firing. The 37mm gun is firing, but is traversed round the wrong way. The Browning is jammed. I am saying "Driver, advance." and the driver, who can't hear me, is reversing. And as I look over the top of the turret and see twelve enemy tanks fifty yards away, someone hands me a cheese sandwich."
Warhammer 40,000 wrote:So, we have an internal rules team and around 20 playtesters. Lets say, they all play 3 games a week with a new Codex. That's around 40 games being played a week. So, perhaps 100-120 games get played in the playtest period. They catch LOADs of things that need tweaking, and discuss points values, how rules work together, the way they interact with various enemies etc.
Release day rolls round. We sell (picking a number out of the air) 50,000 copies of Codex: Orks. That means 50,000 games being played on day one. Maybe another 50,000 games being played day 2.
In 2 days, the community has played 100,000 games or more, against every possible enemy, and every possible scenario. They spot a few things our playtesters didn't (it's a vast and complex game after all!) and pass it on to us at 40kfaq@gwplc.com.
Our rules writers, eager to make sure everyone's gaming experience is as good as it can be, take those questions and produce these FAQ documents.
For our rules team and playtesters to get through 100,000 games, they would need to play 3 games a week for almost 5 years. We reckoned you guys didn't want to wait that long, you see!
So some seemingly obvious things slip through. Is it due to incompetence, lack of due diligence, work load or some other reason? I do not know.
So is that to mean that 3 games a week is really all they can stomach of the game they play test ? As well I call total BS on some of that PR hot air. Some of these things, on their face just scream OP and they did from game 1. I'm talking core rules and not just the marines supplements. Maybe they should find the time to play like a game a day for the week ? That I think might help a little bit.
Well 20 people each using the new codex 3 times a week is 60, so not sure how they got 40 there. But that post is in response to new books, specifically the most recent release.
Bear in mind those 20 playtesters will work across all gw games probably and need to also regression test the older factiona for balance ch ages or new rule adjustments ala chapter approved. I agree 40 a week with the new product is fairly low for what you imagine, but when the reality of normal working hours and other factors like other games come into it, that's a decent effort.
It's lazy effort when being play testers is part of their job, do some over time to grind out them games. Hire more play testers with all the super expensive new kit money they are pulling in. If they want to say they put out a quality top tier product they should actually put out that level of effort in all the quality. Not say how they give an ok effort to try and kind of half heart it so it's ok. Their prices aren't ok prices.
I suggest they use some of that money they save by not having an editor to hire more play testers who actually want to work hard at it.
Wow, who says they dont work hard at it, who says those playtesters aren't full time playtesters? You have more of an issue with the price than the rules it seems.
Imagine you have to play 1 game of sigmar narrative 1 game open play and 1 game of matched, then a meeting engagements game. Oh then do the same with 40k, an open, a narrative and then a matched play with an army, then an apoc game, then a kill team game. Then do that for all armies, on a 37.5 hour week.
If all they can pump out is 3 games a week, I can safely say they are not working that hard. I can say this as I play games of 40k, and various other ones. I can also say if I had said job I would be quite eager to put the best data out there for the customers. I have issue with the price when you should get what you pay for. If they want to run it top dollar, they should be giving top quality, that's how it works. If it was cheap, I could at least say, " eh, you know you get what you pay for. " This isn't cheap but that has little to do with their lack of end results. I don't think you needed much playing with say IH to see, hey, there's a problem here.
Also, why would you ever need to play test open play ? That whole point of that is anything goes, if there is anything wrong with it, the players literally have all the agency to fix it. Frankly, I think most players of the game wouldn't mind over time as a GW play tester, I'd even relish it because I'd like to know things like this don't happen and I could say, honestly, I did my very best. GW has a habit of putting out excuses and never really says they will do better. I just can't believe so many people want to give them a pass when if results ended up this borked for most of us, we'd be fired, or at the very least a stern warning. Why is it that the bigger the company the less you expect from them ? It's really boggling and probably why they get away with it, people
You don't need to be a game designer to know when mistakes were made, you don't need to program a game to realize if it sucks. I'd go so far as to say most of the player base that comments on here has as much experience or more I'd say than some of these play testers with the product over the decades of its life. At least more than enough to warrant an objective view point on what is working and not.
At the end, would just be great if they ever said " Hey, we're sorry, we'll fix it and make sure these issues don't happen again and if they do, we'll admit it and work on it. " Instead all it end up being is excuses and shrugs and " Hey, we tried ! "
Edit: Glad to see GW pumped the brakes on the IH a bit. Well done.
Well that's what they did essentially, they admitted they jumped the gun and ignored external feedback due to deadlines.
But the plastic kits are top quality, those are the prices you're complaining about. The rules which you don't like are contained in 1 product, the price of plastic kits is irrelevant to the quality of their rules, many people get the kits to collect or hobby without playing with them.
Each playtesters gets 3 games with 1 book specifically in a week. I'm glad you have the spare time to manage 60+ games of 40k a week so you can use all armies more than 3 times.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/18 06:14:28
Warhammer 40,000 wrote:So, we have an internal rules team and around 20 playtesters. Lets say, they all play 3 games a week with a new Codex. That's around 40 games being played a week. So, perhaps 100-120 games get played in the playtest period. They catch LOADs of things that need tweaking, and discuss points values, how rules work together, the way they interact with various enemies etc.
Release day rolls round. We sell (picking a number out of the air) 50,000 copies of Codex: Orks. That means 50,000 games being played on day one. Maybe another 50,000 games being played day 2.
In 2 days, the community has played 100,000 games or more, against every possible enemy, and every possible scenario. They spot a few things our playtesters didn't (it's a vast and complex game after all!) and pass it on to us at 40kfaq@gwplc.com.
Our rules writers, eager to make sure everyone's gaming experience is as good as it can be, take those questions and produce these FAQ documents.
For our rules team and playtesters to get through 100,000 games, they would need to play 3 games a week for almost 5 years. We reckoned you guys didn't want to wait that long, you see!
So some seemingly obvious things slip through. Is it due to incompetence, lack of due diligence, work load or some other reason? I do not know.
So is that to mean that 3 games a week is really all they can stomach of the game they play test ? As well I call total BS on some of that PR hot air. Some of these things, on their face just scream OP and they did from game 1. I'm talking core rules and not just the marines supplements. Maybe they should find the time to play like a game a day for the week ? That I think might help a little bit.
Well 20 people each using the new codex 3 times a week is 60, so not sure how they got 40 there. But that post is in response to new books, specifically the most recent release.
Bear in mind those 20 playtesters will work across all gw games probably and need to also regression test the older factiona for balance ch ages or new rule adjustments ala chapter approved. I agree 40 a week with the new product is fairly low for what you imagine, but when the reality of normal working hours and other factors like other games come into it, that's a decent effort.
It's lazy effort when being play testers is part of their job, do some over time to grind out them games. Hire more play testers with all the super expensive new kit money they are pulling in. If they want to say they put out a quality top tier product they should actually put out that level of effort in all the quality. Not say how they give an ok effort to try and kind of half heart it so it's ok. Their prices aren't ok prices.
I suggest they use some of that money they save by not having an editor to hire more play testers who actually want to work hard at it.
Wow, who says they dont work hard at it, who says those playtesters aren't full time playtesters? You have more of an issue with the price than the rules it seems.
Imagine you have to play 1 game of sigmar narrative 1 game open play and 1 game of matched, then a meeting engagements game. Oh then do the same with 40k, an open, a narrative and then a matched play with an army, then an apoc game, then a kill team game. Then do that for all armies, on a 37.5 hour week.
If all they can pump out is 3 games a week, I can safely say they are not working that hard. I can say this as I play games of 40k, and various other ones. I can also say if I had said job I would be quite eager to put the best data out there for the customers. I have issue with the price when you should get what you pay for. If they want to run it top dollar, they should be giving top quality, that's how it works. If it was cheap, I could at least say, " eh, you know you get what you pay for. " This isn't cheap but that has little to do with their lack of end results. I don't think you needed much playing with say IH to see, hey, there's a problem here.
Also, why would you ever need to play test open play ? That whole point of that is anything goes, if there is anything wrong with it, the players literally have all the agency to fix it. Frankly, I think most players of the game wouldn't mind over time as a GW play tester, I'd even relish it because I'd like to know things like this don't happen and I could say, honestly, I did my very best. GW has a habit of putting out excuses and never really says they will do better. I just can't believe so many people want to give them a pass when if results ended up this borked for most of us, we'd be fired, or at the very least a stern warning. Why is it that the bigger the company the less you expect from them ? It's really boggling and probably why they get away with it, people
You don't need to be a game designer to know when mistakes were made, you don't need to program a game to realize if it sucks. I'd go so far as to say most of the player base that comments on here has as much experience or more I'd say than some of these play testers with the product over the decades of its life. At least more than enough to warrant an objective view point on what is working and not.
At the end, would just be great if they ever said " Hey, we're sorry, we'll fix it and make sure these issues don't happen again and if they do, we'll admit it and work on it. " Instead all it end up being is excuses and shrugs and " Hey, we tried ! "
Edit: Glad to see GW pumped the brakes on the IH a bit. Well done.
Well that's what they did essentially, they admitted they jumped the gun and ignored external feedback due to deadlines.
But the plastic kits are top quality, those are the prices you're complaining about. The rules which you don't like are contained in 1 product, the price of plastic kits is irrelevant to the quality of their rules, many people get the kits to collect or hobby without playing with them.
Each playtesters gets 3 games with 1 book specifically in a week. I'm glad you have the spare time to manage 60+ games of 40k a week so you can use all armies more than 3 times.
The plastic kits mean nothing, if the rules are borked. They may be a model company but if they got rid of the game, people would mostly stop buying the models, that is the long and short of it. One really does push the other by a large margin.
The books are not cheap either, and those are the rules, you can find the kits worth every penny I have the right to disagree, on some kits I would agree though but that isn't the reason for this talk.
Unless you are claiming these rules for the game are free ? If they are free, then you know what ? I wouldn't even complain about how awful they are. That I can promise you.
As well, if I was a play tester, I wouldn't be needing to play all these games on my free time I'd squeeze most in on company time and still put in my own if the task warranted it.
That said, I really don't care who is to blame. I just want the problem spotted and fixed, that's it and I think that is reasonable for everyone to want at this point going forward with all books.
If you want to get hung up on me finding some of their model kits less than priced sane or worth it, keep up with that hoss, but I am saying you pay for the rules too and not a small amount. So yes I do expect quality from them too, unless you are saying GW are making the rules all free now and if so please please tell me because I thought they cost money as well. ( Outside of being a pirate, as we all know that can be done )
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/18 06:43:44
Rules have never been this cheap actually. The rules themselves come for peanuts in the starter boxes, and the marine codex is 20 euro.
That said, they still do sell those rules, so you should expect a certain level of quality.
This time they screwed up, but at least they were honest about it and fixed the issue.
I would be quite agry if it happened again though.
Spoletta wrote: Rules have never been this cheap actually. The rules themselves come for peanuts in the starter boxes, and the marine codex is 20 euro.
That said, they still do sell those rules, so you should expect a certain level of quality.
This time they screwed up, but at least they were honest about it and fixed the issue.
I would be quite agry if it happened again though.
The marine codex only comes out cheaper if you just buy the basic codex, factor in the supplements which most marine players get and it went up in price, at least in the US. It was a clever move on their part to break up the cost over two or more books. Assuming you buy all the supplements the main marine book is way more expensive and some people will buy more than one supplement with it.
Spoletta wrote: Rules have never been this cheap actually. The rules themselves come for peanuts in the starter boxes, and the marine codex is 20 euro.
That said, they still do sell those rules, so you should expect a certain level of quality.
This time they screwed up, but at least they were honest about it and fixed the issue.
I would be quite agry if it happened again though.
The marine codex only comes out cheaper if you just buy the basic codex, factor in the supplements which most marine players get and it went up in price, at least in the US. It was a clever move on their part to break up the cost over two or more books. Assuming you buy all the supplements the main marine book is way more expensive and some people will buy more than one supplement with it.
It has content enough for one or two campaign books. Unless you're buying 3+ supplements you weren't going to get things cheaper than this most likely. Like the Black Legion has to get at least one Vigilus book and a lot of CSM builds are locked away into the other one. SM still have some content locked away in Viglilus, but it's generally on a lower power level than the codex and supplements so you'd do it mostly for flavour.
Spoletta wrote: Rules have never been this cheap actually. The rules themselves come for peanuts in the starter boxes, and the marine codex is 20 euro.
That said, they still do sell those rules, so you should expect a certain level of quality.
This time they screwed up, but at least they were honest about it and fixed the issue.
I would be quite agry if it happened again though.
The marine codex only comes out cheaper if you just buy the basic codex, factor in the supplements which most marine players get and it went up in price, at least in the US. It was a clever move on their part to break up the cost over two or more books. Assuming you buy all the supplements the main marine book is way more expensive and some people will buy more than one supplement with it.
It has content enough for one or two campaign books. Unless you're buying 3+ supplements you weren't going to get things cheaper than this most likely. Like the Black Legion has to get at least one Vigilus book and a lot of CSM builds are locked away into the other one. SM still have some content locked away in Viglilus, but it's generally on a lower power level than the codex and supplements so you'd do it mostly for flavour.
Just because GW is utterly buggering chaos players isn't a reason I should rejoice for loyal marines to only have to buy two books for the low price of 70$.
Let me clarify yes, the basic marine codex is large for its cost. I'm not arguing that, I'm saying if you want all the bang for your buck you aren't just buying that book, you're getting the supplement to go with it. Which is yes, cheaper than what chaos has to do but we all know they like to smack down chaos. ( Sorry Chaos )
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/18 07:29:20
Spoletta wrote: Rules have never been this cheap actually. The rules themselves come for peanuts in the starter boxes, and the marine codex is 20 euro.
That said, they still do sell those rules, so you should expect a certain level of quality.
This time they screwed up, but at least they were honest about it and fixed the issue.
I would be quite agry if it happened again though.
The marine codex only comes out cheaper if you just buy the basic codex, factor in the supplements which most marine players get and it went up in price, at least in the US. It was a clever move on their part to break up the cost over two or more books. Assuming you buy all the supplements the main marine book is way more expensive and some people will buy more than one supplement with it.
It has content enough for one or two campaign books. Unless you're buying 3+ supplements you weren't going to get things cheaper than this most likely. Like the Black Legion has to get at least one Vigilus book and a lot of CSM builds are locked away into the other one. SM still have some content locked away in Viglilus, but it's generally on a lower power level than the codex and supplements so you'd do it mostly for flavour.
Just because GW is utterly buggering chaos players isn't an reason I should rejoice for loyal marines to only have to buy two books for the low price of 70$.
Let me clarify yes, the basic marine codex is large for its cost. I'm not arguing that, I'm saying if you want all the bang for your buck you aren't just buying that book, you're getting the supplement to go with it. Which is yes, cheaper than what chaos has to do but we all know they like to smack down chaos down. ( Sorry Chaos )
*bitter ironwarrior splintter ramblings acompanied with angry shovel shaking.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
tneva82 wrote: Yeah you 100% need at least 1 supplement. And if you want to vary your units you need more to get the supplement that's optimal for your units.
It's just another case of cashgrab gw.
And I remain ardent that Gw new is just gw +PR Division.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
The plastic kits mean nothing, if the rules are borked. They may be a model company but if they got rid of the game, people would mostly stop buying the models, that is the long and short of it. One really does push the other by a large margin.
Considering how GW manage their resources, I would highly doubt that.
You doubt if they stopped the game their sales would dry up ? I mean you can think that, I'm pretty sure the company might survive for a long while on IP rights but I bet they'd lose a hell of a lot of money in the slow spiral downward.
The plastic kits mean nothing, if the rules are borked. They may be a model company but if they got rid of the game, people would mostly stop buying the models, that is the long and short of it. One really does push the other by a large margin.
Considering how GW manage their resources, I would highly doubt that.
TBH that's probably correct, a lot of people use the minis for the game and the setting, without which they're just expensive alternate pieces for some other game, or display items.
But I just disagree that the quality of the plastic kits is determined by the rules behind them, they're premium kits and well designed regardless of rules.
tneva82 wrote: Yeah you 100% need at least 1 supplement. And if you want to vary your units you need more to get the supplement that's optimal for your units.
It's just another case of cashgrab gw.
And I remain ardent that Gw new is just gw +PR Division.
5300 | 
2800 | 
3600 | 
1600 | 
