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If the armour protection can keep up and remain largely invulnerable to the ranged weaponry of common soldiery then melee remains viable.

And that's why full suit of armor made a knight nearly impenetrable to melee attacks that didn't involve spikes and warhammers, whereas it shrunk into a cuiraisse during early gunpowder era and disappeared completely around 1914. And it stil doesn't solve the 40k problem of hulking green monsters that can take any amount of precision hits with a bayonet before going down. It can swing it's weapon faster than a human (muscles=speed, no matter what fantasy novels tell you), it can deliver stronger blow that will be impossible to parry by a human, and it has almost no weak points compared to a human. Oh, and it has longer arms thanks to it's apelike posture, so it has the reach advantage in melee. It'd be like fencing a grizzly bear, good luck with that.
   
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 catbarf wrote:
By the end of WW1, Sturmtruppen outfitted for trench raiding weren't using bayonets; they carried stocked, drum-fed Luger pistols appropriated from the Artillery corps, the MP18 submachine gun, and grenades. Their American counterparts were gearing up with M1897 shotguns (initially equipped with a sword bayonet, but eventually dropped), Browning Automatic Rifles (no bayonet), and Thompson submachine guns (also no bayonet). With an automatic or semi-automatic firearm there just isn't a need for a knife to do damage when the weapon itself is far more capable, and that's even when the expectation was that these would be used in point-blank trench warfare.

I've heard a lot of soldiers who sharpened their trenching shovels for that purpose, too, because they were just rifleman who didn't have any of those guns. Interestingly, the Germans tried to get shotguns banned and threatened to chop off the hand of any soldier found with shotgun shells on their person if captured.

In the close quarters of a trench, a shotgun can be dreadfully effective, and we have fully automatic shotguns available today. Modern warfare doesn't face a lot of trenches, but they do include a lot of indoor and cave fighting, which isn't that dissimilar in ranges to the trenches.

In 40K, this translates to the shotguns and carbines having shorter ranges, but also being Assault versus the "standard" small arms of the rifles like the Lasrifles (though the Boltguns were carried like SMGs and Carbines). Of course, that was when moving and shooting with Rapid Fire really curtailed your range abilities.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/12 19:03:14


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Cobleskill

I seem to recall a passage in a book, which could have been from an old IG codex, the infantryman's primer, or a novel, a passage in which a medic was patching a dressing on top of a lethal sound so that the sufferer could 'get back in the fight'. The point of it being that the medic knew that it was a mortal wound, but not an immediately lethal one. To shore up the OP's point about the ineffectiveness of danger combat.

But I agree with a later posted that wounds in 40k should be looked at as critical wounding, not an outright killing blow.

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Hydrostatic Shock is one helluva effective means of stopping the threat.

   
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I'm a bit confused by the folks who are saying armour isn't a thing anymore. Do Kevlar vests and other body armour like things not factor in? What about full on riot gear?

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Annandale, VA

 Blndmage wrote:
I'm a bit confused by the folks who are saying armour isn't a thing anymore. Do Kevlar vests and other body armour like things not factor in? What about full on riot gear?


Body armor capable of stopping rifle rounds has only become a thing in the last two decades. Kevlar vests don't stop rifle rounds and never have. Riot gear doesn't stop even pistol bullets; it's meant to guard against thrown rocks and bottles.

So nowadays you need NIJ Level III armor to stop intermediate-caliber rifle rounds, or Level IV to stop armor-piercing rifle rounds. A single 10x12 plate of AR500 steel to cover your abdomen, with a thickness sufficient for Level III, weighs around eight pounds. If you go with ceramic plates instead, they're lighter, but can be broken by a sharp blow, and must be discarded after successfully stopping a round.

If you catch a rifle round on the plate, it'll knock you on your ass- better than being dead, but there's a good chance you might crack a rib and wind up a casualty anyways. If you take a hit that clips a major artery in the neck, arm, shoulder, or leg, the armor won't help. Or you might get shot in the face, and so far there's no way to armor that. Happens a lot when people take cover and the only thing really exposed is their head. I'm not aware of any ballistic helmet that can stop an armor-piercing rifle round at high velocity.

The point being that while you can get body armor today that will stop basic battlefield threats, the amount of your body you can feasibly have protected is small, so it's not something you can count on. Level III/IV plates are thick and inflexible, and just generally suck to wear- there's a legitimate case to be made that in many situations, the immobility and weight of body armor outweighs the protection it provides. Special forces tend to stay lightweight for this reason- if you look up photos of, say, Navy SEALs, they're usually wearing just a compact plate carrier and a lightweight helmet intended to stop fragmentation and pistol rounds.

So, yeah, while materials science continues to improve and there are some novel technologies on the horizon, body armor is not the bulwark it was in the medieval era. Modern combat is all about avoiding getting shot, and equipment that compromises a soldier's ability to do that ends up sitting in the FOB.
   
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most "bulletproof" vest would be perforated by most readily available rifle FMJ projectiles. Add in a solid penetrator(steel, tungsten, depleted uranium) and most man portable defensive gear is basically ineffective. you might as well be an Ork with all the tshirt saves you'll need to make.

Also, if you've ever been shot and take a hit to the vest, it's more akin to having a roided-up Jose Canseco take a bash brothers swing at your chest. which for all intents and purposes, is what happens kinetic energy wise. scale it up to .75, add in mass-reactive self guided rocket propelled projectiles and boom. But 40k has such things a power armour, rosarius, divine intervention so melee will still be a necessity. cuz, ya know, someone made this all up...on purpose!
   
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 Blndmage wrote:
I'm a bit confused by the folks who are saying armour isn't a thing anymore. Do Kevlar vests and other body armour like things not factor in? What about full on riot gear?


Depends on what the armor is for. Body armor these days, at least for most modern militaries, is usually designed to be effective against fast moving kinetic penetrators like bullets or shrapnel. It's not that great against slower piercing and stabbing weapons. I suppose it would provide token protection against light slashing weapons, but a solid combat knife wielded by the average dude stands a reasonable chance at penetrating the vest.

But knives aren't what we encounter. Shrapnel is far, far more concerning, as one piece of shrapnel getting in the wrong place can spell the end. By comparison, direct fire is far less concerning, because humans are rather small targets at range, and they get harder to hit when they start shooting back at you. Artillery on the other hand pretty much punches everyone in the face in a wide radius, often exploding above the ground to shower you with light dainty kisses. Hence the Kevlar helmet and jacket.

One thing to consider is that we simply don't encounter anything like what 40k has. We train to fight against human armies. Things like swarms of hormagaunts aren't exactly a threat on the modern battlefield. If, say, housecats decided to go on millions strong rampaging hordes every now and then, we'd probably develop some very nasty solutions.

Ranged combat would still be the focus though. Ranged combat is the only really effective way to conduct a defense-in-depth. Not to mention, it's really exhausting to run across the battlefield, fight in close combat, then do it over and over again. Rather shoot, really.
   
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I seem to recall reading that wearing body armour today to stop bullets can end up weighing more than a full suit of plate armour.

Another important factor to consider is that battles are a lot longer in duration now. You might be patrolling and fighting and then patrolling again in that armour. Granted you can jump in a car for some of it, but you might spend far longer active in a battle situation.
Whilst in the past the battle would be brutal and bloody, but often as not it would be over in hours because after a certain point both sides are exhausted. Eventually you pull back and lick your wounds and regroup.

Special forces groups might even spend days or weeks out on a mission; so not only have they got to carry weapons and armour, but also survival gear, food water etc.... So, again, weight becomes a huge factor.



Exosuits (power armour) from what I gather aren't even being looked at in that context, far too complex for a battle situation as if anything breaks you're totally out of action until you strip it off. Then you've left high tech equipment in the field or you've got to be rescued and pulled out. Though I've heard that they are looking at them for mobile bases to replace forklift trucks and such. So that you can have much smaller and more rugged terrain setups. Helicopters and Harriers and such which need very small staging areas can then have a mobile base setup very fast and you've got people in power suits who can lift the weapons and armour and fuel into place even if the ground under foot is rough.

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Crescent City Fl..

The IOTV with plates ect weighed in at 35 lbs or more.
It's been several years so I can't remember exactly.
All I recall is I wanted one is size medium or large but was issued one in a size too big and it was extremely frustrating. Ideally you want armor to be a little small, more snug fitting than loose fitting.
If it doesn't fit correctly it just makes everything more difficult to do. I want to say I remember the plates were suppose to stop a 7.62 but they would need to be replaced as soon as possible if it took a hit.

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 Overread wrote:
I seem to recall reading that wearing body armour today to stop bullets can end up weighing more than a full suit of plate armour.

Another important factor to consider is that battles are a lot longer in duration now. You might be patrolling and fighting and then patrolling again in that armour. Granted you can jump in a car for some of it, but you might spend far longer active in a battle situation.
Whilst in the past the battle would be brutal and bloody, but often as not it would be over in hours because after a certain point both sides are exhausted. Eventually you pull back and lick your wounds and regroup.

Special forces groups might even spend days or weeks out on a mission; so not only have they got to carry weapons and armour, but also survival gear, food water etc.... So, again, weight becomes a huge factor.



Exosuits (power armour) from what I gather aren't even being looked at in that context, far too complex for a battle situation as if anything breaks you're totally out of action until you strip it off. Then you've left high tech equipment in the field or you've got to be rescued and pulled out. Though I've heard that they are looking at them for mobile bases to replace forklift trucks and such. So that you can have much smaller and more rugged terrain setups. Helicopters and Harriers and such which need very small staging areas can then have a mobile base setup very fast and you've got people in power suits who can lift the weapons and armour and fuel into place even if the ground under foot is rough.

Well realistically - if you have the tech to make an exosuit - you have the tech to make it totally automated. Ether by remote or autonomous. The future of combat is probably going to be full of robots.

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Most of you are the problem these days.
Oh my .005 mil of whatever is awesome. Yours isnt.
Same with GW. Theyve forgotten how to joke as well.

Otherwise thered be a Jorus Bronsun, who caused the great rift,.
Or the Suchess Megiahan and Haruid. Who ran away from the hive when things got tough.
   
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the ancient wrote:
Most of you are the problem these days.
Oh my .005 mil of whatever is awesome. Yours isnt.
Same with GW. Theyve forgotten how to joke as well.

Otherwise thered be a Jorus Bronsun, who caused the great rift,.
Or the Suchess Megiahan and Haruid. Who ran away from the hive when things got tough.


...what?

 
   
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 Elbows wrote:
the ancient wrote:
Most of you are the problem these days.
Oh my .005 mil of whatever is awesome. Yours isnt.
Same with GW. Theyve forgotten how to joke as well.

Otherwise thered be a Jorus Bronsun, who caused the great rift,.
Or the Suchess Megiahan and Haruid. Who ran away from the hive when things got tough.


...what?

Seconded. What?

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Right, but it still doesn't make any sense...?

 
   
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I suspect Orks are the reason we see melee in 40k.

They’re hard wired for close combat. Much as a nice loud gun is desired, a big choppa and satisfying wet crunches are more desired.

Consider their numbers, and how hard (background wise) they are to keep down.

They’re super numerous in the Galaxy, so your troops will need more than basic HTH training to deal with them.

And Space Marine HTH specialists exist because of their entire ethos - horrific, maximum violence in a single strike. They’re not just there to kill, they’re there to kill so spectacularly and overwhelmingly enemy morale plummets.

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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I suspect Orks are the reason we see melee in 40k.

They’re hard wired for close combat. Much as a nice loud gun is desired, a big choppa and satisfying wet crunches are more desired.

Consider their numbers, and how hard (background wise) they are to keep down.

They’re super numerous in the Galaxy, so your troops will need more than basic HTH training to deal with them.

And Space Marine HTH specialists exist because of their entire ethos - horrific, maximum violence in a single strike. They’re not just there to kill, they’re there to kill so spectacularly and overwhelmingly enemy morale plummets.


It's a real shame GW didn't give more ranges weapons to Ork boys. I'd take Orks with bolters or shootas with nearly the same profile if it were still available. I've found Ork shooting lists that I have played have done much better than I had expected and I'd like more of that. I was fielding a lot of shoota boys at the end of last edition and shoota boys in trukks were doing well this edition prior to the codex. Don't know if that sort of thing would still work, haven't played a game with the new codex yet.

I'm almost tempted to start a guard army if I ever start a new army or play again. A superior hand to hand army. Fix bayonets! Charge!

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OP seems to have missed WW1 completely. They tried what he suggested many times. Complete with the captain executing anyone who refused to go over the top.

In fact the whole schtick of the Imperial Guard and their stupid commanders and Commisars is a skit on the idiotic British Generals of WW1. The Germans called the British "Lions led by Donkeys". Watch a series called Black Adder Goes Forth on the web - you can easily imagine it being set in an Imperial Guard Bunker!
   
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Fixture of Dakka




 Gareth_Evans wrote:
OP seems to have missed WW1 completely. They tried what he suggested many times. Complete with the captain executing anyone who refused to go over the top.

In fact the whole schtick of the Imperial Guard and their stupid commanders and Commisars is a skit on the idiotic British Generals of WW1. The Germans called the British "Lions led by Donkeys". Watch a series called Black Adder Goes Forth on the web - you can easily imagine it being set in an Imperial Guard Bunker!

Just bring tissues for the last episode.

Personally I've always thought it's a mix of terror tactics from Marines and you may as well train some people for melee as Eldar, Dark Eldar, Orks and later Tyranids are definitely going to use close combat.

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Annandale, VA

 Gareth_Evans wrote:
OP seems to have missed WW1 completely. They tried what he suggested many times. Complete with the captain executing anyone who refused to go over the top.

In fact the whole schtick of the Imperial Guard and their stupid commanders and Commisars is a skit on the idiotic British Generals of WW1. The Germans called the British "Lions led by Donkeys". Watch a series called Black Adder Goes Forth on the web - you can easily imagine it being set in an Imperial Guard Bunker!


Eh, 'lions led by donkeys' is more myth than fact, stemming from the overwhelming majority of accounts of WW1 coming from enlisted. Even maligned generals like Haig learned over the course of the war and replaced obsolete doctrine with novel advances in tactics- human wave attacks were dropped after 1914-1915, replaced with fire-and-maneuver, aerial bombing, night raids, and machine gun barrage in support of infantry. These generals were pioneers in the development of modern combined-arms warfare.

In many cases, decisions which appeared, to the men, to be acts of incompetence were borne out of greater strategic necessity. For example, Haig was forced to order the attack at the Somme a month and a half earlier than he wanted, before complete artillery support was available, because the French Army was on the brink of revolt at Verdun and desperately needed relief. To his men, this seemed like an act of idiocy- the fact that the French Army was in danger of giving up entirely was most certainly not public knowledge.

If anything, it was the French insistence on the élan vital that drove their use of mass infantry assault. But when later supplemented by creeping barrage, gas, and aerial reconnaissance, they saw much greater success. The French offensives at Verdun from October to December of 1916 were, in their own right, surprisingly modern military strategy, and ultimately won the battle.

Blackadder is a great watch; just... keep in mind it's fiction.

All that said, you are right; direct human wave attacks don't work against WW1-era weaponry, let alone modern.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/14 21:30:47


 
   
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San Jose, CA

Gareth_Evans wrote:OP seems to have missed WW1 completely. They tried what he suggested many times. Complete with the captain executing anyone who refused to go over the top.

In fact the whole schtick of the Imperial Guard and their stupid commanders and Commisars is a skit on the idiotic British Generals of WW1. The Germans called the British "Lions led by Donkeys". Watch a series called Black Adder Goes Forth on the web - you can easily imagine it being set in an Imperial Guard Bunker!


For that matter, watch all of them.

Also, ranged combat is great...its called artillery!
   
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100 meters? Why are you standing so close to your enemy? The internet just told me this:
The AK-47 and AKM, with the 7.62×39mm cartridge, have a maximum effective range of around 400 meters (1,300 ft) and can travel up to 800 meters (2,600 ft).
   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And Space Marine HTH specialists exist because of their entire ethos - horrific, maximum violence in a single strike. They’re not just there to kill, they’re there to kill so spectacularly and overwhelmingly enemy morale plummets.

More proof that the Eighth Legion is the best legion.
   
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 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Ernestas wrote:
So even if we assume 1:34 kill ratio...


That was 1:34 over a century ago.

Our ability to kill with ranged weaponry has massively increased since then. As an example, on the first day of the battle of the Somme the British suffered ~57,000 casualties, of which ~19,000 were killed.

That was only 3 years after the end of the Moro rebellion. Since then we have developed machine guns with much higher rates of fire, more powerful explosive ordnance, nuclear weapons etc.


Heavy weapons existed back then too. Like back then, today too there are situations when you can't have or your heavy weapons are disabled or used against you. Vietnam is a great example of modern conflict where melee is very feasible and modern military force could be slaughtered by a better motivated and prepared enemy fighting on their home ground.

I have. That's why I made the comment I did.

You are writing fictional posts about a fictional subject.

There is nothing that can be offered as real-world examples that will prove or disprove your point.

I'm not entirely sure what your point is, to be honest, but I think it's that melee is more powerful than shooting in general (and that this can be applied to the fictional 40k universe).


Because this is half-joking, half serious thread which combines modern day realism with stuff that exist in W40k. People automatically believe that when you are shot by modern rifle, you are pretty much dead. People believe with absolute faith that no melee is possible and modern firepower is absolute. I want to challenge that faith. Though, your faith in your flas...lasgun is commendable guardsmen!

I'd like those reading suggestions if you don't mind.


Certainly, I'm attaching perfect example of most recent lore where melee is displayed realistically. These are veteran guardsmen entrenched in mountain next to choke point with unlimited ammunition and plenty of heavy weapons. They are fighting that is essentially simple humans who charge them over range through killing zone into melee charging them from extreme range with no cover. No tricks. No futuristic tech. Just simple, caveman age technology vs modern firepower. In this story guardsmen get destroyed hard by their attackers. Listen in order to understand why melee is so effective in W40k and can be in ours too.


This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2020/02/22 09:25:51


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Annandale, VA

 Ernestas wrote:
Heavy weapons existed back then too. Like back then, today too there are situations when you can't have or your heavy weapons are disabled or used against you.


The US troops in the Philippines didn't have 'heavy weapons' (what passed for heavy weapons at the time- field artillery pieces and early crew-served machine guns are NOT comparable to modern belt-feds issued on a platoon basis).

They still had an incredibly lopsided kill ratio.

 Ernestas wrote:
Vietnam is a great example of modern conflict where melee is very feasible and modern military force could be slaughtered by nothing more than savages with clubs.


No it isn't. Melee combat did not happen with any kind of regularity in Vietnam, even in conditions perfectly suited to it. Jungle warfare in Vietnam wasn't even particularly different (in terrain) from jungle warfare in the Philippines, and we already know how that went.

This is nonsense. Where are you getting your information?

 Ernestas wrote:
I'm attaching perfect example of most recent lore where melee is displayed realistically. These are veteran guardsmen entrenched in mountain next to choke point with unlimited ammunition and plenty of heavy weapons. They are fighting that is essentially simple humans who charge them over range through killing zone into melee charging them from extreme range with no cover. No tricks. No futuristic tech. Just simple, caveman age technology vs modern firepower. In this story guardsmen get destroyed hard by their attackers. Listen in order to understand why melee is so effective in W40k and can be in ours too.


What about it? I'll summarize so nobody else has to sit through it.

-Hordes of Genestealer-controlled civilians attack a Guard defensive position as a human wave, and are cut down en-masse without effect.
-The narrator says that they can hold them off indefinitely, despite the incredible degree to which they are outnumbered.
-The civilians throw themselves from a nearby cliff onto the defensive lines, breaking things on impact and clogging it up with their bodies.
-The narrator sees this and shoots himself.

So, what can we take from this? Even in GSC-centric 40K fiction, human wave attacks don't work, and it takes the Guard building their defensive position with an incredibly obvious weakness for an alternative strategy to work.

It might as well have been a couple of Pashtuns with hand grenades. Literally nothing in that excerpt provides a justification for human wave attacks being effective.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/18 14:29:34


 
   
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It might as well have been a couple of Pashtuns with hand grenades. Literally nothing in that excerpt provides a justification for human wave attacks being effective.


like i said, Wave assaults have been preetty ineffective on their own for some time and probably will be until we are at a point were we can once again outnumber bullets casually with no supply issues at all.

Infiltration assault tactics on the other hand can work.

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What about it? I'll summarize so nobody else has to sit through it.

-Hordes of Genestealer-controlled civilians attack a Guard defensive position as a human wave, and are cut down en-masse without effect.
-The narrator says that they can hold them off indefinitely, despite the incredible degree to which they are outnumbered.
-The civilians throw themselves from a nearby cliff onto the defensive lines, breaking things on impact and clogging it up with their bodies.
-The narrator sees this and shoots himself.

So, what can we take from this? Even in GSC-centric 40K fiction, human wave attacks don't work, and it takes the Guard building their defensive position with an incredibly obvious weakness for an alternative strategy to work.

It might as well have been a couple of Pashtuns with hand grenades. Literally nothing in that excerpt provides a justification for human wave attacks being effective.


I'm not sure if we had listened to a same video. It proved that despite having every advantage, completely melee force just overpowered modern style army.

-There was a massive effect of those human wave effects which you utterly had missed. Psychological.
-That is misunderstanding the context.
-This tactic was extremely effective.
-Thus human wave assault won. It had its desired effect.


The US troops in the Philippines didn't have 'heavy weapons' (what passed for heavy weapons at the time- field artillery pieces and early crew-served machine guns are NOT comparable to modern belt-feds issued on a platoon basis).

They still had an incredibly lopsided kill ratio.


Those weapons were issued in widespread use from the moment they became practical and yes, they are comparable in effectiveness when they are firing.

Furthermore, these kill ratios are not lopsided. They are in fact favorable. You see, I do not count bugs which I crush beneath my boot as an act of violence as they are utterly beneath my consideration. I do not count how much oxygen soldiers will consume on their mission as it is utterly pointless. I do not count how much ammo soldiers will fire in war as ammunition is just too easily to replace. You count such silly things in order to justify your own pointless beliefs. People who often are sent into melee in W40k are not soldiers. In whatever faction they are so beneath the notice of their betters that my previous comparisons holds true. Chaos slavemasters will send their slaves just to see them being ripped to shreds as it amuses them. Tyranids will create literal mountains of dead hormogaunts as they are so cheap. Ork mere boys should be considered more as a symptom of Ork spores rather than an actual combatant. They are in Ork society as kids are in ours. They might one day become something of value, but for all intents and purposes they are utterly and completely useless and no matter how many you kill, the biggest impact they will have in their misreable lives is when they die and seed surrounding countryside with dozen more Orks.

No it isn't. Melee combat did not happen with any kind of regularity in Vietnam, even in conditions perfectly suited to it. Jungle warfare in Vietnam wasn't even particularly different (in terrain) from jungle warfare in the Philippines, and we already know how that went.

This is nonsense. Where are you getting your information?


Sigh, not melee combat. Engagement ranges. Lack of heavy firepower. That argument is to prove that there are plenty of wars where it is impossible to control engagement ranges or use superior range, accuracy and optics in real war.

Okay, so I gather you are not particularly familiar with firearms. That's fine.

Raw caliber tells you very little- that's just the diameter of the projectile. It says nothing about the shape of the projectile, its mass or the energy behind it. Kinetic energy is a more useful measure

The .38-caliber revolver in question, which was somewhat ineffective against the Moros (as Vaktathi said, lots of it was hearsay from guys who missed their targets) was firing .38 Long Colt, which is a 125gr projectile traveling at 235m/s, for an energy of 224J.

.45ACP, the round that replaced it, is a 230gr projectile traveling at 255m/s, for an energy of 483J.

9x19 NATO- also .38-caliber- is a 124gr projectile traveling at 373m/s, for an energy of 560J. It's more powerful than .45ACP despite being a .38-caliber round.

And .223, the most common modern rifle caliber, is a 55gr projectile at 990m/s, for an energy of a whopping 1,715J.

The stopping power myth is the idea that raw caliber is the most important thing in terminal effect. It has been soundly debunked, over and over again, for the past fifty years, and the holdouts are people who simply refuse to accept the evidence.


You continuously ignore my points. When it comes to stopping power sheer kinetic energy does not matter, size does. Medieval cannon ball might have as much kinetic energy as a modern bullet, but I won't believe that even you will argue that getting directly hit by a cannon ball will have less convincing power for you to stop than a modern bullet. You have a right mind when you mention qualities of a round itself, but largely they are irrelevant and most bullets are designed for ballistic performance and thus they are pretty much identical. You also ignore one of the reason why rifles were replaced by assault rifles. Their larger, more powerful rounds were too powerful to for their intended targets. In a very same way why some anti tank guns were not used, because they would just overpenetrate their intended targets.

In June 2010, the U.S. Army announced it began shipping its new 5.56mm, lead-free, M855A1 Enhanced Performance Round to active combat zones.[141] This upgrade is designed to maximize performance of the 5.56×45mm round, to extend range, improve accuracy, increase penetration and to consistently fragment in soft-tissue when fired from not only standard length M16s, but also the short-barreled M4 carbines


When I dig little further:

It uses the same components as the M855-a jacket, a penetrator, and a metal slug. But the new round contains some subtle changes (see Figure 1). The copper cup, from which the jacket is formed, is reverse-drawn, the opposite of how the M855 jacket is drawn. The hardened steel penetrator is almost twice as heavy as the one used in the M855 and is fully exposed instead of hiding beneath the softer copper jacket.


So, this round has doubled its cap size. What is a massive departure from what previous round was designed to do thus proving my point that new rounds are designed for penetration effect and not soft tissue damage. Article expands deeper on how new round is better, mostly its improvements are tied with more predictable performance which makes round more dependable. Also, improvements in manufacturing and eco friendliness. Considerable portion of soldiers had expressed that their 0.223 caliber lacks stopping power. This is why military improves ammunition which it gives out and considers increasing caliber of their main small arms.

https://www.army.mil/article/48657/evolution_of_the_m855a1_enhanced_performance_round

Also no, 0.223 exhibit yawning behavior like all projectiles do. It is more tied to quality of ammunition.


One of the most popular calibers for concealed carry handguns is .380, 9mm (also a .38-cal, but with more powder than .380) is the most common handgun cartridge in the world, and .45 is increasingly unpopular (often referred to as '.45 AARP' because the guys willingly carrying it are almost universally over 60 and have no idea what they're doing), so no. Where did you even get that?


Article briefly touches people concerns with high calibers. Furthermore, you are moving debate goals here. 0.38 cal is a proof that people prefer higher calibers for their stopping power. Now you suddenly ignore an entire argument and somehow to you 0.38 cal is the same as 0.223 cal.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/behold-10-best-guns-home-defense-66642


Yeah, that's called 'missing the target'. And the answer to what you do when another comes is 'reload'.

If a small force of Americans could hold off a much greater force of Moros, in unfavorable terrain, armed with poor weapons for the task (ever try reloading a double-action revolver under stress?), what makes you think a modern force with modern weaponry would be less effective?


That is called "hitting your target". You assume ideal conditions where everyone is calm, have time to aim their individual shots. These are not combat conditions nor how human psyche operates. Why modern force would be less effective? Because their weapons have less stopping power than before. Though, not exactly because of introduction of automatic fire. That argument was more to show that existing stopping power is insufficient against suitably determined foe by W40k standards.

Because the rifle carrying it is more effective in every way, even in close combat.


That is sadly a myth. Rifle is long, it requires aiming. It is difficult to quickly shift your angle of attack. It also requires reloading. There is a reason why we have an entirely separate class of guns specially designed for close quarters. Typical melee armament is some sort of sword and a pistol. Pistol is quicker to aim if it comes to duel over range and a sword is superior in close quarters in cutting down enemy opponent. It has wider arc of attack, it is more deadly, it has far greater psychological impact, it doesn't need to reload, it is infinitely more reliable and it can provide intimate defense where assault rifle is next to useless when opponent stands right next to you.

They were carrying commercial-bought shotguns, weapons intended for hunting birds. Nobody on a modern battlefield who has the option takes a shotgun over a carbine- they exist purely as specialized breaching tools and for firing less-lethal ammunition. A modern day rifle is objectively better than a modern shotgun in close quarters, let alone a vintage side-by-side or M1897.


It is like saying that bullets from previous age doesn't hurt. Like I had established previously, when technology matures sufficiently, there aren't any revolutionary improvements made anymore. Modern weapons are more efficient, but they do not have those God like differences in performance which you keep on claiming. In addition, your arguments are disingenuous. That shotgun was a standard army issue weapon.

That is not how pulse lasers work. Please, just, go read a Wikipedia entry or something. They don't work by evaporation. They're not severely impacted by atmospheric conditions. You might as well be arguing that bullets don't work in the rain because the bullets will get knocked off course.

Look, I mean this in the nicest possible way: You do not really understand what you are talking about. Can I give you some reading suggestions on the evolution of military small arms design if this is something you're interested in?


I did read and they are severely impacted by atmospheric conditions. In fact these are major limitations of even existing laser weaponary which we have and want to use today. Furthermore, as power increases so does various physical effects.



This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/19 07:36:12


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Ork mere boys should be considered more as a symptom of Ork spores rather than an actual combatant. They are in Ork society as kids are in ours.


How can you compare those big green hulky things to kids??

They are rowdy, dumb, funny, mean, irrational...
...
...
oh god...
...



I will never face again a green wave list with the same eyes...


I'm a child slaughterer...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/19 10:57:00


 
   
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 Ernestas wrote:


Sigh, not melee combat. Engagement ranges. Lack of heavy firepower. That argument is to prove that there are plenty of wars where it is impossible to control engagement ranges or use superior range, accuracy and optics in real war.


What measurement are you using to justify your argument that the US was lacking heavy firepower in Vietnam? Infantry had weapons like the M60 and M16 which massively increased their potential firepower over previous conflicts (Korea and WW2). They also had helicopter support, also equipped with M60s. The US dropped over 3 times as many bombs in the Vietnam war than it did over both theatres of WW2. They had fething Napalm.

I'm failing to see "lack of heavy firepower" in the US's approach to the Vietnam conflict. The failure of the US military in Vietnam was political and doctrinal. The focus on kills as the measure of success of operations etc. was misguided and contributed to the mindsets of command which led to atrocities like My Lai. The revelation of those kinds of atrocities absolutely tanked support for the war back home, which was already pretty low to begin with once the US casualties started to tick up, which had the knock on effect of damaging the morale of the US forces (not gonna feel happy that you're stuck halfway round the world because you got unlucky in a lottery and to top it off when you get home you get lumped in with people who massacred women and children).

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/02/19 16:23:27


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