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Made in au
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Advanced Space Crusade is what became Tyranid Attack, the first GW game I bought.

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your mind

If I had a stable home then I would buy old editions and collect them. I had had RT, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. Lots of books. About ten years of WD. All that was lost. Now I have much of the 2nd Ed and RT stuff in PDF but it isn’t the same as the old books.

   
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Yeah, I'd much rather leaf thru an old book than a PDF any day.

For myself, there is something familiar about looking thru RT or STD and it makes me feel good. Memberberries are great.

A PDF is a great way to aquire information but actually turning a page is a manual of arms that I like.
   
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Advanced Space Crusade was an odd game, by the standards of the other games around at the time. While Advanced Heroquest was just that - another dungeon-bash game with more rules - ASC wasn't just a fiddlier version of Space Crusade. Rather than a game of ASC being a single mission into a hiveship, you were playing out an entire assault - the Space Marine player was responsible for controlling three different assaults, each with leading and trailing waves, and reserves to commit to any assault as required.

Rather like WHQ: Blackstone Fortress, a single game would include multiple different tactical combat sessions as you search for the vital organs* of the hiveship, and encountered the defending Tyranids as they awake from stasis. Tyranid Attack reduced that strategic element in favour of a more simple tactical game.

The game came with three squads of Space Marine scouts and six Tyranid Warriors, but included rules in the force list for just about every Space Marine infantry squad and character available at that time, and also Genestealers, Hybrids and Chaos Marine and Ork mind slaves for the Tyranids. White Dwarf added rules for Orks and Imperial Guard assault forces instead of Marines.

* including it's anus, to much sniggering.
   
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Do we have any particular fans of Blood Bowl in here?

I’ve a copy of the Companion and Star Players, complete with the cards.

I’m not really that into Blood Bowl, so happy to move them on

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Is that for the current version MDG?

I still play with all of the original stuff, just because I had some custom pitches (that weren't cheap) and in grognard fashion don't want to replace my range rulers!

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Advanced Space Crusade was an odd game, by the standards of the other games around at the time. While Advanced Heroquest was just that - another dungeon-bash game with more rules - ASC wasn't just a fiddlier version of Space Crusade. Rather than a game of ASC being a single mission into a hiveship, you were playing out an entire assault - the Space Marine player was responsible for controlling three different assaults, each with leading and trailing waves, and reserves to commit to any assault as required.

Rather like WHQ: Blackstone Fortress, a single game would include multiple different tactical combat sessions as you search for the vital organs* of the hiveship, and encountered the defending Tyranids as they awake from stasis. Tyranid Attack reduced that strategic element in favour of a more simple tactical game.

The game came with three squads of Space Marine scouts and six Tyranid Warriors, but included rules in the force list for just about every Space Marine infantry squad and character available at that time, and also Genestealers, Hybrids and Chaos Marine and Ork mind slaves for the Tyranids. White Dwarf added rules for Orks and Imperial Guard assault forces instead of Marines.

* including it's anus, to much sniggering.


That sounds pretty cool actually. I remember that it was more of a wargame in that you had a points value for different units (and could have 'mind slaves' as the Tyranid player, and chuck pretty much any miniature you had into the game as a result, Orks etc)

I would love to get hold of some RT-era marines, painted up in suitably gaudy colours (to go with the tile pieces) and play the game just using them.

About the last point, was just looking at the sphincter doors! Ah to have a young and naiive mind, can't remember thinking anything of those at the time

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Nah, for 2nd Ed, I think? Maybe 3rd.

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Looking through my ASC rulebook, the Tyranid force list included Warriors with deathspitters or paired boneswords, Zoats, Genestealers, Hunter-Slayers (what are now Termagants with fleshborers) and Grabber-Slashers (in the 1991 catalogue as the "Big Squig" with a huge claw out the top of its head). Ten there were Genestealer Hybrids using the same selection of weapons as in Space Hulk, and then the mind-slaves - Orks with bolters, Gretchin with flintlock rifles and a Chaos Space Marine squad. the mind-slaves were clearly a way to use the Orks, Gretchin and Chaos Marines from Space Crusade.

The Advanced Rules section allows you to use the blips and board tiles from Space Hulk, and a suggestion to use Chaos SPace Marines instead of proper Loyalist ones. Basically the only difference is that you get to add the Androids and Dreadnought from Space Crusade to the Marine force list.
   
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Interesting stuff. There was definitely a different type of character to the Tyranid stuff back then. It felt a lot more creepy (I think that's the term I would use). As though whoever had done the design work had recently watched The Thing and think there was a bit of Alien/facehugger and body horror in there too. Contrast with the more modern representation of Nids, as a heaving wave of chitin and fangs charging forward to overwhelm and rip to pieces. No less terrifying, but I think a different type of concept.

There was an awful lot of quite disturbing imagery I seem to recall, people being absorbed into walls or the floor and having tentacles wrapped around them. I think a lot of it was some of the earlier Adrian Smith black and white work as well, so in technical terms really well done. Will have a look around and see what I can find..

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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I disagree.

Tyranids were a half-realised idea that took a bunch of models from a different range (Genestealer Cults) and then added in even more minis from other ranges (the "Mind Slaves") to bulk up their numbers.

I have the issue of WD where they were given their first Rogue Trader/1st Ed army list and there are, as we know them today, only 4 actual Tyranid units (Warriors, Termagants, Carnifexes and Genestealers). Everything else, from Brood Brothers to Squigs (of all things), now belong to someone else, or simply aren't part of the game anymore (the aforementioned "Mind Slaves").

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Sorry that wasn't written very clearly, I was referring to the artwork/style rather than the miniatures specifically - I know there were only a handful of sculpts available back then (and obviously didn't sell many, going on the price I have just seen on eBay for one of the tiny metal Nid/spider things).

So if you have a look at some of the art around the time of ASC there is a pretty gross organic/absorption and body-horror style running through a lot of it. Remember it very strongly as it really gave me the creeps as a kid! Not that the later stuff doesn't, but there is something worse about having a giant spider/flesh sack use it's proboscis to start going down the back of your shirt...



Perhaps not the best example, there was a lot more of this kind of stuff, will have a look through some old WDs.

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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

That artwork is all through the Tyranid Attack book (which makes sense given where that game came from originally), and you're right, there are some creepy critters in those pictures between all the Warriors and Genestealers. The Tyranid stuff in there is loads of fun, and even has concepts for things that wouldn't see the light of day for many years (like Gargoyles).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/12 15:28:56


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 Pacific wrote:
Sorry that wasn't written very clearly, I was referring to the artwork/style rather than the miniatures specifically - I know there were only a handful of sculpts available back then (and obviously didn't sell many, going on the price I have just seen on eBay for one of the tiny metal Nid/spider things).

So if you have a look at some of the art around the time of ASC there is a pretty gross organic/absorption and body-horror style running through a lot of it. Remember it very strongly as it really gave me the creeps as a kid! Not that the later stuff doesn't, but there is something worse about having a giant spider/flesh sack use it's proboscis to start going down the back of your shirt...



Perhaps not the best example, there was a lot more of this kind of stuff, will have a look through some old WDs.


Landsknecht mohawk space marines! Now I want to make a squad

   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Well those were the original scouts. They had that mohawk.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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Recently, a couple of my friends have convinced me to look at 2nd edition 40k, and a year later I've found myself completely down the metal mini rabbit-hole.

Initially, the similarity to the Warhammer Fantasy rules was what drew me in (I had fond memories of playing 7th ed. WHFB, despite my low points level/hobby skills). But what really keeps me engaged is just the feel of 2nd Ed.

While Rogue Trader was probably too clunky to have a decent amount of models, 2nd has the right amount of crunch and scale that it suits my gaming needs. While it is much more complicated, I enjoy the extra granularity, and I understand a bit more of the "beer and pretzels" mentality. I very much doubt anyone would claim 2nd Ed. to be balanced, but it feels like balance was sort of missing the point.

2nd Edition seems to be right at the point where GW was gearing up for larger games than Rogue Trader, but still trying to focus on playing for narrative or fun, rather than the current emphasis on tournament play. While 9th is likely to be much better in that regard, playing 2nd feels a bit more fun to me. It's less about the result of the game, or how the result is derived, and more on the process of exploring the setting and worlds which GW had created with 40k.


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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Well, you say that, but wait until you get into a big HTH combat situation that involves more than 2 squads.

There's a reason why 2nd Ed's rules were perfected when they applied them to Necromunda.



This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/13 01:32:59


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All Hail 3rd edition hive tyrant. Hail!

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AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
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 Cryonicleech wrote:
Recently, a couple of my friends have convinced me to look at 2nd edition 40k, and a year later I've found myself completely down the metal mini rabbit-hole.

Initially, the similarity to the Warhammer Fantasy rules was what drew me in (I had fond memories of playing 7th ed. WHFB, despite my low points level/hobby skills). But what really keeps me engaged is just the feel of 2nd Ed.

While Rogue Trader was probably too clunky to have a decent amount of models, 2nd has the right amount of crunch and scale that it suits my gaming needs. While it is much more complicated, I enjoy the extra granularity, and I understand a bit more of the "beer and pretzels" mentality. I very much doubt anyone would claim 2nd Ed. to be balanced, but it feels like balance was sort of missing the point.

2nd Edition seems to be right at the point where GW was gearing up for larger games than Rogue Trader, but still trying to focus on playing for narrative or fun, rather than the current emphasis on tournament play. While 9th is likely to be much better in that regard, playing 2nd feels a bit more fun to me. It's less about the result of the game, or how the result is derived, and more on the process of exploring the setting and worlds which GW had created with 40k.


Exalted for eloquence.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Well, you say that, but wait until you get into a big HTH combat situation that involves more than 2 squads.

There's a reason why 2nd Ed's rules were perfected when they applied them to Necromunda.




Tweaks.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/13 21:04:16


   
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Regarding RT era Tyranids: There's a short story by Ian Watson from late 1st ed about Scouts infiltrating a hive ship that has some disturbing imagery in it. (And we all know Ian Watson can't describe a chair without making you want to take a shower.) Victims who have been impregnated with larvae in Aliens 'kill meee' style, and so on.

But I generally agree with HBMC:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Tyranids were a half-realised idea that took a bunch of models from a different range (Genestealer Cults) and then added in even more minis from other ranges (the "Mind Slaves") to bulk up their numbers.


From what I gather, it was none other than Epic Hive War that finally kicked the Tyranids into high gear, detailing all the bio-tanks and now-classic infantry like Hormagaunts and generally making them a cohesive galactic force. Well, that's what Andy Chambers said at the time anyway. 2nd ed Codex Tyranids for 40K followed shortly afterward.

The model designs themselves stayed wonderfully varied and creepy for years afterward, even into 3rd. I never really liked it when Jes Goodwin unified the look of the whole range in 4th edition. The older models were much more diverse, like an entire space-going ecology. Looking back at the 2nd ed 40K and Epic ranges, the little toothy wormy Rippers looked totally different to the infantry, which looked totally different to the slug-like 'tanks', which looked nothing like the spidery Bio-Titans, and so on... but they did all look as if they'd evolved on the same planet and had all decided to come across space to eat you. Very War against the Chtorr.

Post-4th, the Tyranids look more like one hundred different breeds of alien dog. As if there's just one ancestral species that has engineered itself into every other form. Which is fine as an aesthetic and background choice, but I prefer the older 'entire predatory biosphere that invades and eats other biospheres' feel.

But getting back on topic while sticking with Tyranids: The old-school item I've been chasing for a while now is the Doom of the Eldar boardgame. The third in the cardboard-counter 'Wargame Series' (the first two being Battle for Armageddon and Horus Heresy).

DotE was about Iyanden Craftworld getting nibbled on by the Nids, and it features lots of 1st edition gribblies, including possibly the best forgotten Tyranid creature ever: the Protoid! Like the Blob, but Tyranidified!

For some reason Doom of the Eldar is a lot more pricey on the secondhand market than the first two. But having played a friend's copy, I don't really think the game itself is good enough to justify the asking prices. What do the knowledgeable folks here reckon--how does DotE compare to the other two in the series?

Anyway, anyone interested in the old-school stuff could do worse than to check out the Wargame Series games. Be warned they had their share of typos and errors (including the combat table in BfA).
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Yeah, it was the Hive War stuff that brought Tyranids into focus for the first time. It's where staples of the game now like H-Gaunts, Gargoyles and Lictors got their start, and where things like Hive Tyrants were finally pinned down with a real look and menace to them (2nd Ed had rules for them, but that was it).

You're right there there was a bigger emphasis on worm-like (and slug-like) things that dominated the Tyranid 'tanks', but thanks to Jes bringing everything back to a singular core concept, we now have a number of those Epic creatures reimagined into forms that fit the Tyranid aesthetic (Trygons, Haruspex and, my personal fav from the Epic days, the Exocrine).

And I love my 2nd Ed Tyranid Codex. Fantastic book.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/15 09:34:37


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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
You're right there there was a bigger emphasis on worm-like (and slug-like) things that dominated the Tyranid 'tanks', but thanks to Jes bringing everything back to a singular core concept, we now have a number of those Epic creatures reimagined into forms that fit the Tyranid aesthetic (Trygons, Haruspex and, my personal fav from the Epic days, the Exocrine).


Well, as noted, I see that reimagining as unnecessarily constraining. I liked the older variety and felt it fit the Tyranid aesthetic just fine. It felt like an entire planet's worth of species was attacking. The Earth equivalent would be not only humans but lizards, spiders, hagfish, cassowaries, blue whales, viruses and slime moulds all united by a single consciousness, out to conquer the galaxy together.

(Again, I don't know if David Gerrold's War against the Chtorr series was among the inspirations for Andy C's take on the Tyranids, but those books feel very much like a depiction of a slow-motion Tyranid invasion. Especially book 4.)

Jes's visual revamp feels more like the equivalent of humans engineering themselves into flying people, mole people, crab people, etc. and filling the roster that way. One species diversifying into a hundred niches. It makes the Nids more like a single 'race', which to me is less alien or interesting.



The integrated weapons were a much better idea than the living swords / guns they used to carry around, though. And we can definitely agree that the Exocrine was the coolest of the old slug-tanks.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And I love my 2nd Ed Tyranid Codex. Fantastic book.


My first Codex! Read it so often the cover's almost come off.

"If only we could befriend these creatures, think what we could learn from them--" [REDACTED BY IMPERIAL ORDER]

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/15 12:07:18


 
   
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On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

I remember that 2nd ed Nid codex being so nasty! Think I got flattened by them every time I played a game against them..

Zenithfleet wrote:
Regarding RT era Tyranids: There's a short story by Ian Watson from late 1st ed about Scouts infiltrating a hive ship that has some disturbing imagery in it. (And we all know Ian Watson can't describe a chair without making you want to take a shower.) Victims who have been impregnated with larvae in Aliens 'kill meee' style, and so on.



Ah I think you mean the section in the Space Marine novel. Where the three main protagonists (I think they have been advanced to full marines by this point) are amongst a vanguard that have landed on the Alien ship.

Quite cool in the way that the ship is asleep and not really aware of their presence, and there are remains of unknown (non-Tyranid) species inside. Then poor Biff, who thunks too much, realises that the Zoat 'ambassador'(!)they have encountered (and they are speaking to) is actually trying to play for time so the rest of the ship can wake up!

Quite interesting how much of that has been subsequently ret-conned back into the background (the Zoat for example)

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Pretty sure I’ve got that novel somewhere. Really should read it at some point.

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On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

Sorry man - spoilers!

Definitely think that book is one of the strongest narrative influences on what 'modern' space marines became. Really, I don't think there is anything in the book that stands out now as apocryphal in terms of background that no longer fits (there is maybe one bit in terms of one of the opponents they face - I won't spoil it for you MDG if you don't know as it's brilliant and you will chuckle ) It's certainly not bolter porn by any means, and as the story tracks the main protagonists from joining a chapter and through their career it actually gets inside the heads of the marines and makes them a lot more relatable.

I think probably the best Ian Watson book, I enjoyed the Inquisitor trilogy but thought it tailed off with Chaos Child.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/16 13:04:46


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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Pacific wrote:
Then poor Biff, who thunks too much, realises that the Zoat 'ambassador'(!)they have encountered (and they are speaking to) is actually trying to play for time so the rest of the ship can wake up!
Isn't that when the Zoat rips poor Biff's head off?

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On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

SPOILERS MAN!! (MDG hasn't read it yet.. ) But yes..

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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

There's a statute of limitations on spoilers.

If he finds out spoilers from a 28 year old book, then that's kinda on him.

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"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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Pacific wrote:I remember that 2nd ed Nid codex being so nasty! Think I got flattened by them every time I played a game against them..


I only got in a few games of 2nd ed before 3rd arrived, so my main memory of 2nd ed Tyranids is the amazing talent of my Hive Tyrant at landing venom cannon scatter shots on the Warrior brood to his left instead of the Marines he was aiming at.

To this day I still think of the Thudd Gun template as an essential part of basic 2nd ed kit, as important as dice, range rulers and the cardboard Ork Dreadnaught that can't be hit if you turn it sideways.

Great fluff in that book though. The whole opening section especially--it starts quietly, with odd reports of lifeless worlds out on the fringe that nobody bothers to worry about, until the slow realisation of a curious Inquisitor that the galaxy is in Big Trouble.

Pacific wrote:
Zenithfleet wrote:
Regarding RT era Tyranids: There's a short story by Ian Watson from late 1st ed about Scouts infiltrating a hive ship that has some disturbing imagery in it. (And we all know Ian Watson can't describe a chair without making you want to take a shower.) Victims who have been impregnated with larvae in Aliens 'kill meee' style, and so on.



Ah I think you mean the section in the Space Marine novel. Where the three main protagonists (I think they have been advanced to full marines by this point) are amongst a vanguard that have landed on the Alien ship.

Quite cool in the way that the ship is asleep and not really aware of their presence, and there are remains of unknown (non-Tyranid) species inside. Then poor Biff, who thunks too much, realises that the Zoat 'ambassador'(!)they have encountered (and they are speaking to) is actually trying to play for time so the rest of the ship can wake up!

Quite interesting how much of that has been subsequently ret-conned back into the background (the Zoat for example)


That's probably it. I read an excerpt in White Dwarf around the 160s or so.

The Zoat business reminds me of the 1982 Bruce Sterling story 'Swarm', in which the mindless alien bugs instinctively grow an intelligent, self-aware variant just to deal with the pesky humans who are meddling with their hive, and then presumably reabsorb it once its job is done.

There's some RT-era Tyranid fluff I've never managed to track down, about the attack on the Galactic Luxor and so on. I first saw it in BFG Magazine in 3rd ed, but it left me scratching my head wondering where and when it was first published--it had that 'old recycled fluff' style to it rather than newly written material.


H.B.M.C. wrote:There's a statute of limitations on spoilers.

If he finds out spoilers from a 28 year old book, then that's kinda on him.


His sled sinks at the end when he finds out they were all in it together and the river to paradise is a lie, but at least he didn't kill his kids because she was a clay pot all along.
   
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Ireland

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
There's a statute of limitations on spoilers.

If he finds out spoilers from a 28 year old book, then that's kinda on him.

Remind me of that if you ever sit down to read a murder mystery. Spoiler tags are not hard to use.
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

You must be fun at parties.

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