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Regular Dakkanaut





Moreover, from a financial point of view, it's easy to say 'base your business on original works' - but if nobody wants to buy your models because there's no implicit tie-in to lore which they have grown to enjoy, they're less likely to buy your model. Nobody is going to buy my generic M1 Abrams hover tank if it doesn't fit into 40k, Star Wars, HALO, Infinity, etc. etc.


But that's true of any business regardless of the sector you work in.
Sinking time into sculpting copies, proxies/alternatives, spinoff or fully original IP is a gamble all around financially speaking. No 3D sculptor/game designer, regardless of skill level and passion are guaranteed a living from doing this. This is a luxury good sector after all. It's a dream job, and in some cases works out for certain individuals or teams; but it's the similar financial risks involved for self-start cupcake bakeries and investing in tulip farms.

But I don't feel that forcing 3D modelers to produce original works is strictly conducive to that community continuing to exist. Especially because many 3D modelers produce derivative works because it's what they're initially interested in.

As mentioned earlier, there's certainly still ample room for derivative work based within the IPs, that aren't just copied parts, like new different non-SM themes, or factions without formal rules. Or alternatives to flying metal box tanks.
There seems to be growing oldhammer communities too, people who want to play in older editions/styles or homebrew updates where there def weren't models for every unit/weapon option.

But we also need more originality for the community to keep going, otherwise we get into the tailspin of copycats copying copycats and underselling each other versus actual growth. Then what's the point?
I could be wrong, but I think the community is reaching saturation for world war space trenchers...at least for that one particular aesthetic style of the genre.

There was allegedly a time when there was no D&D, or PP or GW products. And then there were; because someone took a financial gamble on creating something that wasn't the same historical battle game/miniatures ad infinitum.
   
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Esteemed Veteran Space Marine






Northumberland

@Overread - While that's an admirable ideal, as you point out - it's an extreme ideal. The reality is that most people don't want to play not-Stormcast with Stormcast rules. What they want is almost Stormcast, with Stormcast rules. You see this all the time in the Forgeworld News and Rumours thread. Forgeworld releases a model, and the majority of the comments are not dichotomies of 'I hate it!' and 'I love it!'. Instead, you get, 'It's good, but I'd love it with...' or, 'I wish they'd just done....'.

My point here is that this market has popped up because 3D modeling offers the ability to take an 'almost there' design, and make it exactly what the community wanted without moving away from the original appeal. And hence the hot water - it's almost GW, because the community want GW, but just not quite like that. That's why all proxy armies are unlikely to be a thing - because GW's ideas have immense resonance, but will never satisfy everyone. You'll never eradicate the source of these infringements, because you'd literally have to strip away a portion of what it means to be human. No piece of art has ever been 'original' - it's all adaptation until we get right back to imitating nature.

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Longtime Dakkanaut





Sarouan wrote:
Still, there is something that is common from backers : a lot of them buy with some potential use in game in mind, be it D&D or Warhammer. How many are purely doing it for just painting ? Even collection or buying them "just in case" tends to be linked with games.

Pure original work isn't selling as much as you'd like it to be, that's what I see. While some people would like to buy something that some well known company doesn't already sell, it's always with a game setting in mind most of the time - be it a female goblin paladin or a sister of battle with a unique pose.

That's why I totally understand GW protecting their IP, but I also get 3D sculptors trying to appeal to a market audience that is known for being bigger than others or even backers wanting to have cheap W40k proxies that are also visually appealing to them.

In the end, money rules all and no one is clean or better than the other. It's all about personnal interests.


The market for those that buy STLs for just painting purposes are the same % that buy regular models/busts/75mm stuff for just painting. Small fraction of the market but I do see enough busts and larger scale figures for painting STLs on sale that there's some market for it just like boutique brands can put out resin kits.

But outside of that signal digit (or low double digit) percent that does paint thing just for display the rest of us want another use. My issue is the things I want STLs for aren't popular enough generally to support a lot of creators and they tend to find that if they add enough grimdark in they triple their subscriber base. Or, in the case of my love of Shadowrun, just not enough market for that genra mixing.
   
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Northumberland

PondaNagura wrote:
Moreover, from a financial point of view, it's easy to say 'base your business on original works' - but if nobody wants to buy your models because there's no implicit tie-in to lore which they have grown to enjoy, they're less likely to buy your model. Nobody is going to buy my generic M1 Abrams hover tank if it doesn't fit into 40k, Star Wars, HALO, Infinity, etc. etc.


But that's true of any business regardless of the sector you work in.
Sinking time into sculpting copies, proxies/alternatives, spinoff or fully original IP is a gamble all around financially speaking. No 3D sculptor/game designer, regardless of skill level and passion are guaranteed a living from doing this. This is a luxury good sector after all. It's a dream job, and in some cases works out for certain individuals or teams; but it's the similar financial risks involved for self-start cupcake bakeries and investing in tulip farms.


I certainly agree. It is a risk all businesses take. The thrust of my point was not that I encourage this, but that I understand why derivative works arise. They're gambles, but mitigated gambles. The risk of failure is higher when attempting something totally out of the box. And yes, this is a 'luxury' market - but once upon a time so was having dyed clothes. Just because a business is currently a 'luxury' or niche market, does not mean it cannot assume a core component of the economy or society. It's only a question of cultural emphasis.

=PondaNagura]
But I don't feel that forcing 3D modelers to produce original works is strictly conducive to that community continuing to exist. Especially because many 3D modelers produce derivative works because it's what they're initially interested in.

As mentioned earlier, there's certainly still ample room for derivative work based within the IPs, that aren't just copied parts, like new different non-SM themes, or factions without formal rules. Or alternatives to flying metal box tanks.
There seems to be growing oldhammer communities too, people who want to play in older editions/styles or homebrew updates where there def weren't models for every unit/weapon option.

But we also need more originality for the community to keep going, otherwise we get into the tailspin of copycats copying copycats and underselling each other versus actual growth. Then what's the point?
I could be wrong, but I think the community is reaching saturation for world war space trenchers...at least for that one particular aesthetic style of the genre.

There was allegedly a time when there was no D&D, or PP or GW products. And then there were; because someone took a financial gamble on creating something that wasn't the same historical battle game/miniatures ad infinitum.


Of course, I also agree. There's room for a gamut of almost-there designs. I'm suggesting that forcing TOTAL originality is an extreme that is also unconducive to encouraging the growth of the 3D modelling community. We need a balance of space to grow, but security to initate ourselves into the environment by producing designs which are desired. But certainly, there is a flood of the same types of designs - but you always need to acknowledge that perhaps the reason you percieve it as a flood is because it doesn't interest YOU. THat's not an accusation, but it's subjective. I too am bored of 'not-WW1' Sci-fi designs. But for a die-hard WW1-in-Space fan, perhaps there is not enough. Supply and demand rule the economy.

Also - D&D and GW did take the gamble. But it wasn't unprecedented - the popularity of Tolkein in the period both arose was, and still is, MASSIVE. And Tolkein was massive, because LotR drew on folklore and mythology which is culturally hardwired into his audience. Tolkein succeeded because in the era he was writing, a cultural renaissance placed significant emphasis on harking back to Anglo-Saxon, Norse and Brythonic tales. So even his gamble in publishing wasn't unprecedented.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/12 20:33:11


 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

I actually think the 3D print market iwll grow the art bust/painting segment of the market significantly.

Because a lot of those models are bigger than 28-32mm which puts a LOT of people who are average painters off. Even those who are very keen painters still have to budget carefully when those models, in resin, can cost hundreds.

3D printing is MUCH cheaper for them on a per model basis and it also lets them have a degree of room to experiment. If it doens't work they can "print another". Which is fantastic when the models would normally be super expensive; and when many are limited production runs.

When you've dragon 1 of only 50 ever made and you've spent £300 on it you REALLY won't want to risk spoiling it.




So I can see 3D printing really enabling that market; both for those who buy printed models from merchants (not a huge disparity in price, but slightly cheaper in general and often not limited runs at the very least); and those printing at home on their own.

Sure the printed still costs and most won't want to waste them either, but it really opens that market up a lot more.

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+1 for that Overread. I've started learning 3D modelling and buy/print from vendors precisely because they offer me models which are in franchises I like, but aren't limited to wargaming load-outs or omitted for gameplay balance reasons. Hence my above comments on the 'almost-but-not-quite' aspect of 3D designs. There is a tendency for gamers to assume that because many of these minis come with a game system, that is the sole reason anyone could be interested in them. Hence, it devolves into an open-shut case of protecting the game IP or dismantling GW's hegemony. There's no middle ground for people who like the general idea of a model, but want something slightly different (and, of course, legally there can't be a free clause for middle-ground modellers).


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A brief update from Orc King:-

Unfortunately due to a confusion in our products by Patreon and a company that complained about intellectual property the Orc King Space War patreon is suspended. We have tired of sending emails to Patreon and especially of deleting everything they ask of us, but their unwillingness to help us correct this situation has led us to consider this project lost.


From what I've heard through the grapevine elsewhere, Games Workshop has basically blanked Orc King's attempts to do what Dark Gods and everyone else did (aka tweak sculpts until GW leaves them alone). As far as they're concerned, anything and everything he does is infringing and his 'Space War' line needs to go out of business now.

This looks inconsistent at first until you realise that Orc King did what very few other Patreon owners (or none, really) have ever done. He literally made a like for like identical copy of one of their models. And GW's response to that has been to effectively burn his house down and give him none of the dialogue/give and take they seem to indulge in with other creators over his other sculpts (whether legally tenable or not).

There's a very clear message being sent there. Tread on our toes that much, and we'll salt the godamm earth with you. Which, in all fairness, is actually not unreasonable.


 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

A few of Dark Gods designs were very much nearly copies and I've seen a few others that were exceptionally close, but don't appear to have had the same treatment.


This might purely be a case where negotiations fell apart. If he was constantly having to "take things down that they ask of us" perhaps Orc King wasn't sending things to GW for approval first (either because they didn't want too or because they and GW had a vastly different interpretation of what was and wasn't ok). So it turned into a continual battleground.


Certainly GW is under no obligation to allow or work with independent creators, so if there are those causing problems or not playing ball the right way - and we have to accept that sometimes culture/language barriers might be a part of that - then they will just keep issuing copyright claims where appropriate.


It's a shame to see things like that happen, but as you say if the two parties can't come to mediation in the middle then GW does have the upper hand when their IP and its likeness is being used.



I've never bought any of his stuff but I've seen it around and he's got some neat designs. Hopefully his OK patreon remains viable

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Bristol

 Ketara wrote:
Which, in all fairness, is actually not unreasonable.


Yes it is.

The Laws of Thermodynamics:
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 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
Which, in all fairness, is actually not unreasonable.


Yes it is.


If his creations are infringing on GW's designs then its not. In the end its just GW doing what any firm would do - protecting their system.
GW don't have to mediate, they've chosen to do so likely because its actually easier and cheaper for them in the long run - its much cheaper and simpler to have creators approach you for approval than it is to let them put stuff up, start selling it and then you have to find them and challenge them. It's also cheaper because it generates less bad-will from the community (community support costs) and less angry emails.


But if GW and a creator can't come to agreeable negotiation or terms it might well be that they end up just having to keep issuing CD takedowns if a designer is continually not coming to them for approval and is fundamentally at odds with copyright with their style and approach to models.


Note that the choice to take the patreon down was the creators, neither patreon nor GW actually issued a formal "take this whole thing down". Their actions have forced it down of course, but there was still the option for the creator to keep it open, they'd just have had to have found a design style that wasn't going to keep pinging takedown requests.



Again part of this could simply be cultural/language barriers. Or even just GW not being fast enough in replies to queries and such.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/14 13:42:21


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There are some incredibly naive views of the function of litigation in the real world ITT

GW's 40k is itself a derivative Sci-Fi IP and they use their vast warchest to bully smaller creators with litigation. They consistently overreach beyond what even courts have found to be reasonable (such as attempting to copyright "space marine" and even bringing a lawsuit up regarding it).

Some small creators absolutely do infringe on GW copyright. The vast majority do not. GW is attempting to paint with a wide brush to maintain their market dominance.

This is bad for consumers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/14 14:00:37


 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Everything created is derivative of something else. That's how a lot of creations just are.


GW were indeed more foolish with regard to IP and copyright in the past, the Space Marine situation and Chapterhouse were disasters and in part because GW's head of legal for copyright wasn't even trained in that field let alone experienced. Ergo he was fine writing stern letters but not equipped to actually defend in court nor to make proper evaluations.

Right now, from what I've seen, GW is behaving more logically and within the boundaries that are more likely to side with them if things went to court.
That doesn't mean they are right every single time of course; nor that they could not be challenged. However they appear more willing to work through things in general and appear to be being more specific with their targeting.




Market dominance is an odd one to throw in here because in a sense the designers are also working within the bounds of GW Market Dominance by providing alternatives that work within the GW Ecosystem (and which are intended to be as such).
I've yet too or not really seen any evidence of GW going after 3D designers who are clearly working way outside of providing alternatives to GW models for GW games. Granted they have gone after those making busts, which you could argue is outside of GW's remit as they don't make them (and if they have they are super rare); but again its typically of GW copyright style content.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/14 14:04:06


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 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
Which, in all fairness, is actually not unreasonable.


Yes it is.


It's one thing when Games Workshop comes after you for making something that works in their game system using publicly available concepts. It's another when you literally copy every facet of one of their sculpts. I'm hardly a GW fanboy, but come on.

Sure, Games Workshop should theoretically stop at just taking down that one sculpt. But I don't feel like you get to complain about being overly persecuted when you're literally doing the thing they're nailing you for. Shouting 'But I only killed one person' when you're getting sentenced for three murders might be technically correct, but it doesn't win you much sympathy in my eyes. He didn't just accidentally tread on their IP whilst dancing near the line, he walked right over it and jumped up and down laughing. And so they're driving him out of business. What did he expect?

They're making a very, very clear example of him.


 
   
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Let's rephrase it to illustrate why it is unreasonable:

"You made something that is a direct copy of our work. You now cannot sell anything, including things that are not direct copies of our work."

Takedowns of actual duplication of protected IP are reasonable. The salted earth strategy of attempting to block ALL that creator's sculpts, whether infringing duplication or original but related, derivative works, is not.

   
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 Psychopomp wrote:
Let's rephrase it to illustrate why it is unreasonable:

"You made something that is a direct copy of our work. You now cannot sell anything, including things that are not direct copies of our work."

Takedowns of actual duplication of protected IP are reasonable. The salted earth strategy of attempting to block ALL that creator's sculpts, whether infringing duplication or original but related, derivative works, is not.



If you randomly and without cause kick the crap out of someone's younger brother, they may well choose to do the same to you next time you meet them down a dark alleyway. It might not be legal, but it's still going to happen and nobody is going to feel sorry for you just because they're bigger than you.

I'm aware the two aren't exactable translatable occurrences, but the point I'm making with the analogy (before people start questioning the difference in ethical seriousness, or role of law, or whatever nitpicking irrelevancy they fancy focusing on today) is that nasty actions often have consequences in the real world. In this particular instance, Orc King actually directly pirated and sold/profited from a design (aka committed a crime against and at the expense of) made by a very large wealthy company. The result is that the very large wealthy company in question may now choose to use that size and wealth to make life difficult for the pirate in ways unrelated to that initial crime.

Hate to say it, but that's life, and my sympathy is limited. It might not necessarily be legal, and some higher plane zen interpretation of morality would probably look down on it, but that's sort of how things work in the real world. If you don't want to risk the other party coming for you, don't commit the crime in question. They're not abducting his children as insurance after all, they're just waggling their eyebrows threateningly to stop other websites from hosting him. What they're doing is actually LESS illegal than what this guy did to them in the first place. He could still escalate if he wanted to do so (aka open his own website to sell from and up the ante).

Instead, he's choosing to grumble and walk away. Which was probably the smart move. He took a risk, tried to kiss someone's metaphorical girlfriend uninvitedly out of nowhere, and got caught by their partner. Now that partner's landed him a metaphorical shiner and told him not to come within eyesight of their girl in future or he'll get beaten up. So he'll have to walk home by a different road in future or risk starting another confrontation. Too bad, so sad.

This message was edited 15 times. Last update was at 2021/08/14 21:35:26



 
   
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It also matters how the works are derivative.
As mentioned earlier on D&D and GW used Tolkien as a basis for their early IP.
Tolkien estate took D&D creators to task and made them change certain trademark terms D&D had no right to use; but then the estate also pulled a chapterhouse prequel trying to argue "dragon" wasn't public domain iirc Regardless the outcome forces hobbits to become halfings and gnomes, ents to be treants, and make future editions go past just tolkien copycat and dip into the deeper roots of public domain folklore to explore ideas for supplements and creatures.
The hobby/game is probably better for it.
GW actually had a license to make LotR content in the 80s. (Likely) the same artists/sculptors worked on early WHFB/40k orks,which is why they are very visually similar to the LotR content (if anything that explains the no balrog wings on bloodthrister conversions, the in the 2000's agreement). Making art and models from written text is transformative work. To my knowledge JRRT never had proper concept sketches for any of his creations, they were all adapted to those media by artists much later.
40k's warp space has monsters trope and psyker burnout is derivative of "The Game of Rat and Dragon" short story, only GW decided that the monsters at held at bay by forcefields, and gothic elements of protection like wards, faith and gargoyles; and not
Spoiler:
>25yr old young psychics partnered with house cats in psychically propelled football space pods, shooting light bombs at FTL monsters. No, really that's the plot. meow

We can all make derivatives from the same source material so long as we aren't using direct copies of physical media, like art and models that's distinct (and therefore copyrightable), or trademarked words. It's why we can make another space soldiers fighting space 'bugs', so long as it's not called Starship Troopers, Aliens, Starcraft, etc; we can also make extra things fit into those visual narratives, there's wiggle room in using the "style" of a thing, as style is not copyrightable. But it would take a longer post to break down specifics of what is and isn't under that umbrella, and even then it sometimes does come down to court decisions to determine that.

Like the presentation of GW's limited edition catachan character as an homage to Carl Weather's "Predator" character, aesthetically derivative...unless someone paints him with different skin tone and uniform. Then derivative nature becomes less obvious, if outright erased.

This is not to say GW doesn't get Tolkien-estatesque and try to overreach what is and isn't in their IP domain.

   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 Psychopomp wrote:
Let's rephrase it to illustrate why it is unreasonable:

"You made something that is a direct copy of our work. You now cannot sell anything, including things that are not direct copies of our work."

Takedowns of actual duplication of protected IP are reasonable. The salted earth strategy of attempting to block ALL that creator's sculpts, whether infringing duplication or original but related, derivative works, is not.



We should note that GW didn't salt the earth - they simply issues take downs for what they felt required take downs. That the communication between them and the creator had fallen apart means that it sounds like the creator was too close - in GW's view - but wasn't willing or unable to back down without serious work and redesign. So they were getting more and more take down statments from GW/Patreon as a result.

It doesn't sound like GW shut everything down - their other Patreon is running fine. It just means that project was simply not workable because it infringed too much at the core of the designs.

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Maybe I should grab some Saurian STLs before GW goes after them. They're much nicer than GW's Saurus. Don't have a 3D printer though, lol.
   
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UK

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Maybe I should grab some Saurian STLs before GW goes after them. They're much nicer than GW's Saurus. Don't have a 3D printer though, lol.



I was collecting STLs 6 months before owning a printer
Granted I was just after one designer at the time, but yeah sometimes you can grab stuff early. There's a few good lizard campaigns out there and patreon backing can get you a lot of them in advance of owning a printer before they go up in price as they go on general sale. If you're interested drop me a pm as I've been casually collecting a bunch of lizardmen ones

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If you're talking about the OnePageRules Saurians, I think they're safe, they changed a couple of weapons/poses a while ago which I assume was on GW's request, so I'd imagine the rest are 'approved'... Aztec themes on lizardpeople is, like ghosts with weapons, surely too broad/generic a thing for them to have too much sway over.

Archvillain games also have some up this month that should definitely be safe, they're much more towards dino-people than regular GW lizards.

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 Overread wrote:
I do agree having a "use" for models helps drive sales and copying GW works easily to meet both needs.

I'd just rather see someone take an army - like Stormcast - and use them purely as a construction base. So using the models rough volume (height); base size and core properties (eg mage, ranged, close combat - varied weapons etc....) and then going wild with something that might look nothing like a stormcast.

BUT that you could put on the table and play as a stormcast army.

At least that's at the extreme end of artistic freedom.


Interestingly enough, someone did this. They made a "knight builder" inspired by dark souls armors that has proxies for almost all the basic Stormcast infantry. There's even a bike-riding model to proxy the mounted units. The only thing missing are wings for the flying units, but you can kitbash that with some effort. No monsters or hero characters yet, but I think those are coming eventually.
   
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 Ketara wrote:
A brief update from Orc King:-

Unfortunately due to a confusion in our products by Patreon and a company that complained about intellectual property the Orc King Space War patreon is suspended. We have tired of sending emails to Patreon and especially of deleting everything they ask of us, but their unwillingness to help us correct this situation has led us to consider this project lost.


From what I've heard through the grapevine elsewhere, Games Workshop has basically blanked Orc King's attempts to do what Dark Gods and everyone else did (aka tweak sculpts until GW leaves them alone). As far as they're concerned, anything and everything he does is infringing and his 'Space War' line needs to go out of business now.

This looks inconsistent at first until you realise that Orc King did what very few other Patreon owners (or none, really) have ever done. He literally made a like for like identical copy of one of their models. And GW's response to that has been to effectively burn his house down and give him none of the dialogue/give and take they seem to indulge in with other creators over his other sculpts (whether legally tenable or not).

There's a very clear message being sent there. Tread on our toes that much, and we'll salt the godamm earth with you. Which, in all fairness, is actually not unreasonable.


I think you're drawing the wrong conclusion here. GW has nothing to do with Orc King not being able to get their patreon back online, this is purely a patreon issue. You will note Orc King did not say they were communicating with GW, only that they were communicating with Patreon.

If you go back and look at Dark Gods and others who got hit but were able to get back online, they mostly all have two things in common:

1. They all communicated directly with GW legal to resolve the problem points.
2. They were all on Kickstarter or non-Patreon platforms.

By law, Patreon and other platforms are liable for IP infringement on their platforms and as such have a legal obligation to enforce copyright and IP. In practical terms this means that they do nothing until they receive a strike/takedown notice, at which point they will shut the offending content down entirely, even if the takedown strike is specific about the problem only being one specific photo, etc. Kickstarter, Patreon, etc are not subject matter experts, they don't know an ork from an orc from an orruk, nor can/will they differentiate those from an ogfe, goblin, or even a Necron, so they play it safe and go for the maximalist interpretation of the offense, which is to clamp down on everything.

From experience, Kickstarter is willing to provide details such as who provided them notice and a copy of the notice itself, etc so creators can attempt to work out the problems directly with the IP holder. To some extent Kickstsrter also communicates with both parties to coordinate stuff and ensure issues are resolved to the satisfaction of all parties before re-platforming the offendibg campaign. This is why Dark Gods were able to reach out to GW and fix the problems and continue the project on kickstarter.

From the sounds of it, in Orc Kings case the problem is either:

1. Patreon is not as communicative and cooperative as kickstarter and others are and did not provide Orc King with a copy of the notice or relevant contact info (Orc King only says "a company" instead of GW, which leads me to believe that Orc King doesn't know for sure that GW is behind it) and isn't willing to be the niddleman between Orc King a d GW to resolve the issues or expose itself to risk by allowing the campaign to continue, etc

or

2. Patreon did provide Orc King the details and Orc King hasn't figured out that it needs to be in contact with GW directly to resolve the issues because Patreon isnt going to know or understand the specific details of the complaint or how to properly resolve them and that sort of resolution can only come from direct communication amd coordination between the infringing party and the complaining party.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/15 15:25:15


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Sympathy for the Devil, or: The Project Log from Hell

Ma55ter_fett wrote:It reads like the ramblings of a Nigerian lobotomized Shakespeare typed into a cellphone with a very aggressive autocomplete function.
 
   
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Killer Klaivex







chaos0xomega wrote:


I think you're drawing the wrong conclusion here. GW has nothing to do with Orc King not being able to get their patreon back online, this is purely a patreon issue. You will note Orc King did not say they were communicating with GW, only that they were communicating with Patreon.


I appreciate that you've written an extensive post here, but you're missing the crucial fact that similar issues have arisen through Patreon many times. The classic recent case would be 3DArtGuy and his various GW-centric sculpts, but there have been others. In all of those cases, much as with Kickstarter, it's simply been a case of tweaking or removing certain items and GW removes their objection/C&D.

The Kickstarter cases were unusual because they were part of a wider recent pattern of GW throwing out C&D's for stuff that they had previously been willing to let slide in the resin market. In other words, they're now treating the 3D market in a slightly more authoritarian and more legally questionable fashion (albeit inconsistently). The reason for this shift in attitude is unknown (or arguably imagined to some - the joy of opinion).

Orc King's patreon simply got squashed. No tweaking, no discussion, no dialogue. I'm reading elsewhere (so caveat emptor as always with backchannel chat) that this is because GW issued Patreon with a blanket C&D for the patreon, and unlike in case of people like 3DArtGuy, simply aren't willing to let him make tweaks and keep the rest. They consider his whole line to infringe, period, no discussion, feedback, or room for negotiation. They don't want to talk about it or work with him. They just want the patreon gone. So after trying to talk to GW, trying to discuss a compromise, trying to plead with Patreon; it's all come to nothing for Orcking and the channel remains closed.

The reason for this shift in attitude (because most of the Space War range infringes no more or less than lots of stuff) is debatable, but it seems likely to be down his active piracy of their recent limited edition Assassin model that GW is using to promote Warhammer +. That's a line none of those other patreons stepped across.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/08/15 15:38:46



 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Another point is that he got that model out before GW have released theirs. In a sense that's a huge bug for GW even way back in the Chapterhouse days. It's why we have the whole "no models no rules" aspect to codex/battletomes now.

It's one thing to make counts as and stand ins; its another to copy GW's design and bring it to market before GW even have theirs in the market.




And yep 3DArtGuy and others who run Patreons have negotiated/been approached by GW.

That said GW are free to not negotiate if they feel that its not in their interests. They don't have to work with someone if they don't want too.

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Regular Dakkanaut





"Unfortunately due to a confusion in our products by Patreon and a company that complained about intellectual property the Orc King Space War patreon is suspended. "
This phrasing is to feign ignorance. They know well which company complained, and Patreon has communication procedures in place for things like this, in this case they knowingly violated the Authenticity clause in the guidelines:
As a creator, you may not post creations that infringe on others’ intellectual property rights.

Continuing Space Wars, particularly after the Sniper-sob-head post, is a liability to Patreon. If they're smart, OK won't try pushing anything GW-ish on their more generic content page, at least as blatant. I think they had some meso-american primaris sculpts in process, if they just stuck to conversion bits they should be fine.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




It definitely looks like a case of Orc King taking things too far by outright copying a not-yet-released limited edition model and GW deciding to take the nuclear option because of that. Other sculptors have had a more open dialogue with GW - I think this thread has details of the not-Eldar KS and the not-Nighthaunt Patreons - so it seems GW is willing to work with some producers but there's a line somewhere between "compatible with" and "outright copy".

All these sculptors should know they're operating in a grey area in many cases, with the mechanisms for enforcing IP law not on their side. That makes the decision by Orc King much more of a self-inflicted injury to me compared to some of the other examples ITT.
   
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Killer Klaivex







Red Pilgrim Miniatures is in trouble.

Hello everyone. That day has come, after all someone (we roughly know who) threw a strike on my page on patreon now it is blocked. A letter to support has been sent, let's see what they have to say. And what the result of this whole story will be. Most likely, it will be disappointing. Yes, my miniatures have a visual resemblance to GW products, but if you look at it, there is no direct borrowing. The armor and weapons is similar, but made differently, there are no chaptee marks that are under copyright on the soldiers. Well, if they not count as such a Maltese cross or a skull. I'm not even talking about generic infantry like the Desert Hawks. In general, the news is disappointing, I don't know what to do next. And if everything is more or less clear with the infantry (I'll go to myminifactory and cults with them), then there will be problems with an alternative to space marines, as far as I know they are banned there too. Judging by the story with DuncanShadow and his Eldar titan, everything is very strict and totalitarian there too. Perhaps it makes sense to create a website and sell STL models already there, but this takes time. On the other hand, I want to once again thank my patrons and just the people who supported me and my work. Regardless of how it ends - thank you very much. Hold the line! And I send my ardent greetings to GW. There are from a man who has led Bretons, Black Templars and Abaddon's Black Legion into battle for almost 20 years, and who has brought GW a gigantic mountain of money over the years.


Also, DMG Minis is reactivating, and says that even though he's been left alone, GW is going after his merchants (which is a bit strange).


 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 Ketara wrote:

Also, DMG Minis is reactivating, and says that even though he's been left alone, GW is going after his merchants (which is a bit strange).



I think some of this is because of key-words the merchants sometimes use to advertise their products.

A Blog in Miniature

The Swarm Arises

Do you ever notice, sometimes, there's an extra post? 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Halifax

It's a pity people can't sell non-GW stuff.

   
 
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