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Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Alrighty in corner 1 we have Logan Grimnar! A Norse king in terminator armor being driven into battle on a wolf driven chariot.




In Corner 2 We have a sisters of battle exorcist.. a pipe organ that shoot missiles




In corner 3 we have Eldar Exodites (this is warhammer epic but it's till warhammer) LITERAL ELF DINO RIDERS



In corner 4 we have an Ork riding a squig.. THIS IS NOT AN AGE OF SIGMAR MINI THIS IS 40K


and last buyt not least we have eldar harliquins, clown space elves who are one of the more ELITE Eldar units




WHAT THE feth ABOUT THIS SETTING SEEMS GROUNDED AND UNABSURD TO YOU!?



Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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epronovost wrote: The combat experience of a captain is used to command troops (and of course participate in the operation the lead). They are officers, not commandos. A captain is supposed to lead troops. That's their entire "raison d'être".
You are using real world logic. That is the problem here.

epronovost wrote:I'm arguing that the video game Space Marine makes a mockery of the lore of Space Marine (and logic) by having a captain go around a mission basically by his lonesome without leading a deployment of troops, basically doing what one of the 100 members of the 1st company or the unknown number of members of the 10th company would be doing, making this game's story and setting complete garbage.
Uriel Ventris would like a word.


Well why the hell are captains in 40K leading troops then? Why are they commanding a company worth of soldiers, just like our captains. Why does the game systems seems to want to make us believe these units are commanding officers (being both HQ and possessing command abilities). Yes, 40K respects that aspect of the real world. If you wanted a Space Marine champion with decades of experience and cool special gear, you have company champions just for that. You also have 1st company veterans just for that too. Hell you even have Honor Guards just for that. Why is suddenly everybody defending the concept of a captain (not any of the other previously mentioned) acting alone instead of leading troops?
Because Space Marine Captains do *both*. They command, and they are elite combatants as well. 40k is a setting where leaders most often lead from the front, and are oftentimes the strongest fighters of their forces.

I find it strange that you complain about something so completely ubiquitous in this setting. This is not real life. This is 40k. You can make that distinction, can't you?

A Town Called Malus wrote:I'd like to put forth that if we are to consider Space Marine as a true depiction of the capabilities of a Space Marine then I feel it is only fair that we extend the same courtesy to Fire Warrior in which a soldier of the literal lowest rank in the Tau military succeeds in killing countless guardsmen, space marines, chaos space marines, a Titan and a greater daemon on his first ever mission.
Oh, there's absolutely stuff that exists only for game purposes, and neither game should be taken as "true canon" - I'm simply saying that the whole "Space Marine does solo stuff is unrealistic!" is a stance which isn't supported by background material.

Vatsetis wrote:Somehow Im able to both deny the SM even the most basic mobility but at the same time pretend they are the best at everything...
You do the latter by being sarcastic and disingenuous with your points. You have a veritable diploma in slippery slope logic, and in strawman construction.

Instead of understanding the slightest bit of nuance, you flit between "Space Marines are the best at everything hahaha look how unreasonable that is!!" and "Space Marines are incapable of anything". Both are complete fabrications.

Problem is the amount of desbelieve suspension that you need just for SM to do the most basic stuff.
But your suspension of disbelief for walking fungus monsters, giant bipedal Titans, sentient murder robots, literal space daemons, and psychic powers is fine?

What parts of 40k *do * you actually enjoy? What parts *are* accepted in your suspension of disbelief? I'm curious.


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You know that in any complex system tragedy and comedy can exist side by side... Or are you so naive that you cant understand such mixture??
   
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Vatsetis wrote:
You know that in any complex system tragedy and comedy can exist side by side... Or are you so naive that you cant understand such mixture??
I don't know - can you not understand it?

I ask again, as you refuse to put it in writing - what parts of 40k *are* rational to you? What parts *do* you like? What things *are* accepted in your suspension of disbelief? Psychic powers? Daemons? Power armour? Sentient walking fungi?

Make your points crystal clear, or risk them being lost.


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Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






"Space Marines are cartoons because they can fit through doors" is an interesting take.
   
Made in us
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Vatsetis wrote:
Sure but funnily enough thats were oversized and overweight SM are ment to do their job... At least in a significant number of occasions.

Canonically, most of the battlespaces in 40K do not have corridors that are a significant impediment to Space Marines. Nor have I seen much evidence to the contrary.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






 Insectum7 wrote:

Canonically, most of the battlespaces in 40K do not have corridors that are a significant impediment to Space Marines. Nor have I seen much evidence to the contrary.

See but because the VC used rat tunnels during the Vietnam War that means Space Marines can't use corridors. /s
   
Made in gb
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Vatsetis wrote:
Sure but funnily enough thats were oversized and overweight SM are ment to do their job... At least in a significant number of occasions.

Perhaps is some sort of comedy.


Space marines aren't huge though. Or overweight. Concerns about their height and weight are greatly exaggeraged. 7 to 7 and a half feet tall by pretty much every relevant source. As for weight, I'm pretty sure plenty horses and other animals weigh more and thr earth doesn't collapse beneath them.

Comedy's a thing in 40k, but orks are the funny gitz of the setting.
..

greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




 Insectum7 wrote:
Vatsetis wrote:
Sure but funnily enough thats were oversized and overweight SM are ment to do their job... At least in a significant number of occasions.

Canonically, most of the battlespaces in 40K do not have corridors that are a significant impediment to Space Marines. Nor have I seen much evidence to the contrary.


Well thats because if SM couldnt actually perform their tasks it will be absurd in a non functional level... so the setting sort of creates its own rules... call it the "Hollywood Logic"... like represented in the film "Last action Hero".

But you know, its sort of "funny" that the naval assault experts of the IOM are so huge and cumbersome (going to ignore weight in space conditions, altough it pretty obvious that 40K ship have gravity due to the art depictions).
   
Made in gb
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Vatsetis have you read a shred of Space Marine background or do you get all your info from memes and 4chan?
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




Deadnight wrote:
Vatsetis wrote:
Sure but funnily enough thats were oversized and overweight SM are ment to do their job... At least in a significant number of occasions.

Perhaps is some sort of comedy.


Space marines aren't huge though. Or overweight. Concerns about their height and weight are greatly exaggeraged. 7 to 7 and a half feet tall by pretty much every relevant source. As for weight, I'm pretty sure plenty horses and other animals weigh more and thr earth doesn't collapse beneath them.

Comedy's a thing in 40k, but orks are the funny gitz of the setting.
..


IMHO Astartes have grown so bloated and out of proportion that they have invaded the design space of almost all other factions... for instance Primaris are ment to be more "tacticool" and in a sense realistic than firstborn marines... but they have that very orky vibe of "bigger is better" and "put as many gun barrells on a chassis as possible... more dakka... more hits". Not my taste.
   
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Vatsetis wrote:Well thats because if SM couldnt actually perform their tasks it will be absurd in a non functional level... so the setting sort of creates its own rules...
Wow! You finally realised what we've all been telling you, and that it was fruitless in the first place to be complaining how Space Marines don't follow conventional real world logic, because 40k doesn't follow the rules of the real world!
But you know, its sort of "funny" that the naval assault experts of the IOM are so huge and cumbersome (going to ignore weight in space conditions, altough it pretty obvious that 40K ship have gravity due to the art depictions).
Those same art depictions that show that Space Marines are easily capable of moving and navigating through ship interiors and corridors? But you can ignore the gravity?


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 Flipsiders wrote:
As Gert mentioned previously, there are tons of examples of Space Marine captains operating solo and winning anyways. That's just how Space Marine captains are.


Have you ever considered that this is actually false. The only example he provided was Uriel Ventris leading a strike team on board of a Hive Ship to kill a Norn Queen and defeat the invasion of a planet. If we ignore the fact that according to the fluff about Norn Queens it would be the equivalent of a tactical squad destroying a Warlord Titan with bolters, that's still an officer leading a team. It's not a full size company, but at least it's still leading a group of soldier. Also, yes 40K fluff is often illogical, not because it needs to be, or because it wants to be. In some case, this is true like for how orks behave, how titans and close combat can be a thing, but even more often then that, it's illogical because the writing is absolutely terrible. Bad writers who don't know what they are doing, who don't know what they are saying, like Raven Guards hiding in plain sight because the author forgot that Space Marines can see in the dark or Uriel Ventris threatening death itself with a plasma grenade despite the fact a plasma grenade is standard equipment on every single eldar warriors, or killing a Norn Queen on board a hive ship with man portable weapons and explosives, or a hundred Space Marines of the Raven Guard fighting an open field battle against a Tyranid horde down to the captain armed with lightning claws dueling and defeating the Hive Tyrant on his own. These are all terrible writers who simply didn't thought about what they were writing for a single second, if it made sense either from a logical and realist point of view or from a in-universe perspective and in all those cases, its both it's ilogical and inconsistent storytelling that doesn't respect the rules of the 40k universe itself. 40K fluff is filled with bad writers. Taking what bad writers say for granted is how you turn a good universe with some of its own internal logic, but still consistent and turn it into a complete farce where flanderization runs rampant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Because Space Marine Captains do *both*. They command, and they are elite combatants as well. 40k is a setting where leaders most often lead from the front, and are oftentimes the strongest fighters of their forces.


Indeed and will be doing BOTH not one or the other, but both. They are field officers, they will fight in front lines just like their troops do, often where the fight is the thickest and they will command and direct their troops while doing so. They will not leave their company under the command of some less experimented and less talented sergeant. At worst they might lead a strike team for an absolutely vital mission that will require the best of the best in their company to succeed, but they would not go solo do stuff unless the writer has placed them in a "sole survivor" or "cut off from your troops by accident" type of scenario.

I find it strange that you complain about something so completely ubiquitous in this setting. This is not real life. This is 40k. You can make that distinction, can't you?


indeed and a lonesome Warboss would be equally ridiculous, a lonesome Autarch going all commando would be absurd, a Imperial Guard senior officer leaving his regiment behind to go commando is dumb. It's especially dumb in a universe and in an organization that has plenty of people whose job it is to go in alone (or in very small group) to conduct special missions. If the company champion didn't exist it would make sense to call the captain the champion and of his company, but alas, the fluff says that the Company Champion is the the champion of the company because that's what those words means. That's why the Captain isn't the best psyker in the company either nor the most faithful and keeper of the tradition, nor the tech expert, nor a field medic. You can make this distinction correct? If you can accept this distinction why can't you seem to accept that for the poor Company Champion or the poor Scout Master? Why are these people, who exist in the fluff just as much as Librarians or Techmarines not get their specialty and job recognized? You know how to make the difference between stuff that make sense within a universe and just terrible writing about that universe do you? gak writing exist, you don't need to eat it and say yum-yum, that is so tasty.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/08/13 19:07:09


 
   
Made in gb
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Buckle up kids this one's a doozy.
Spoiler:

epronovost wrote:
I'm not arguing against that at all. I'm arguing that the video game Space Marine makes a mockery of the lore of Space Marine (and logic) by having a captain go around a mission basically by his lonesome without leading a deployment of troops, basically doing what one of the 100 members of the 1st company or the unknown number of members of the 10th company would be doing, making this game's story and setting complete garbage.

Personally, I find it hilarious that because I dared to present an image of an environment found Space Marine as an example of standard Imperial architecture, that you've decided to go on this huge rant about how much you hate the game. Hey in CoD: MW2 you can lie down in front of a tank in a ghillie suit in the mission set in Pripyat and not get spotted, does that mean Pripyat doesn't exist?

Well why the hell are captains in 40K leading troops then? Why are they commanding a company worth of soldiers, just like our captains.

Having the same rank name doesn't mean they do the same thing. A captain of a naval vessel doesn't lead a company of troops so obviously they aren't real captains. Captain America often acts alone or leads a small elite team rather than a company but he obviously isn't a real captain either. What about a Army/Navy lawyer who also holds the rank of captain, they aren't leading troops into battle so they must not be real captains. Hell, what about the various Khans, Wolf Lords, Marshalls, and Commanders of other Chapters that don't follow Codex specific language, they can't be real captains either.

Why does the game systems seems to want to make us believe these units are commanding officers (being both HQ and possessing command abilities). Yes, 40K respects that aspect of the real world. If you wanted a Space Marine champion with decades of experience and cool special gear, you have company champions just for that. You also have 1st company veterans just for that too. Hell you even have Honor Guards just for that.

Have you considered that captain is an honorific as well as a rank and that being a captain doesn't mean you must lead troops into battle at all times and can instead delegate command to a senior Sergeant (who BTW is still going to have decades if not longer of combat experience) if a more vital mission presents itself, such as securing a weapon that has the potential to win a war with one shot?

Why is suddenly everybody defending the concept of a captain (not any of the other previously mentioned) acting alone instead of leading troops?

Until the situation with the Inquisitor shows up, Titus's goal is to link up with the rest of the 2nd Company and save Manufactorum Ajakis as well as a Warlord Titan. Only when a specific opportunity presents itself does Titus put the initial mission on standby to try and secure a weapon he is led to believe will win the war for Graia. That's when Titus, Sidonus, and Leandros leave for their own side quest. The 2nd Company is all still there fighting around Ajakis to secure it for reinforcements, then Chaos shenanigans happen and the Blood Ravens show up.

epronovost wrote:
The only example he provided was Uriel Ventris leading a strike team on board of a Hive Ship to kill a Norn Queen and defeat the invasion of a planet.


You want some more?
Kayavan Shrike leads his command squad to eliminate a Chaos device that will cause immense destruction and to kill the Alpha Legion Daemon Prince, Kernax Voldorius, while the rest of his Company and that of Korsarro Khan's take on the bulk of the Alpha Legion and their cultist allies forces.
Watch Captain Artemis leads a Kill Team in an attempt to neutralise an Ork Warboss and stop a Waaaaagh! in it's tracks before it reaches a vital Imperial port.
Captain Daerys Arrun of the Silver Skulls leads a strike team in an attempt to kill Huron Blackheart while the rest of his Company secures a Refinery.
Aethon Shaan of the Raven Guard leads a specialised team to capture the renegade Ardaric Vaanes.

If we ignore the fact that according to the fluff about Norn Queens it would be the equivalent of a tactical squad destroying a Warlord Titan with bolters, that's still an officer leading a team.

I'm sure the Chapter that specialises in killing Xenos armed with a neurotoxin designed to kill Synapse creatures is in no way going to be effective against the Xenos Synapse creature. No way at aaaaaaall.

Indeed and will be doing BOTH not one or the other, but both. They are field officers, they will fight in front lines just like their troops do, often where the fight is the thickest and they will command and direct their troops while doing so. They will not leave their company under the command of some less experimented and less talented sergeant. At worst they might lead a strike team for an absolutely vital mission that will require the best of the best in their company to succeed, but they would not go solo do stuff unless the writer has placed them in a "sole survivor" or "cut off from your troops by accident" type of scenario.

The story of Space Marine is both of those things. It's not representative of general operations and nobody is pretending it is. You just have a rage on for hating the game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/13 19:42:16


 
   
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epronovost wrote:
 Flipsiders wrote:
As Gert mentioned previously, there are tons of examples of Space Marine captains operating solo and winning anyways. That's just how Space Marine captains are.


Have you ever considered that this is actually false.
I mean, is it false? Plenty of canon sources cite this as truth.
The only example he provided was Uriel Ventris leading a strike team on board of a Hive Ship to kill a Norn Queen and defeat the invasion of a planet.
I also cited Sicarius doing similar in Knights of Macragge, and Ventris doing this repeatedly in multiple of his novels.
If we ignore the fact that according to the fluff about Norn Queens it would be the equivalent of a tactical squad destroying a Warlord Titan with bolters, that's still an officer leading a team.
And Titus was leading a team. The team just happened to be split up across the surface of Graia. What he was doing was hardly inconsistent with what we have often been shown Space Marine Captains doing.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Because Space Marine Captains do *both*. They command, and they are elite combatants as well. 40k is a setting where leaders most often lead from the front, and are oftentimes the strongest fighters of their forces.


Indeed and will be doing BOTH not one or the other, but both. They are field officers, they will fight in front lines just like their troops do, often where the fight is the thickest and they will command and direct their troops while doing so. They will not leave their company under the command of some less experimented and less talented sergeant. At worst they might lead a strike team for an absolutely vital mission that will require the best of the best in their company to succeed, but they would not go solo do stuff unless the writer has placed them in a "sole survivor" or "cut off from your troops by accident" type of scenario.
But that's exactly what Uriel Ventris *did* on Tarsis Ultra - left his company to do a mission with some Deathwatch which he wasn't the commander of, and left his sergeant to command his troops on the field.

Everything you complain about Titus doing, Ventris already did. You can say that what Ventris did was stupid, but you can't say that it's inconsistent. Also, Space Marine also *is* an example of the "cut off from your troops" trope at the start of the game - you're explicitly separated after the assault on the Kill Kroozer.

I find it strange that you complain about something so completely ubiquitous in this setting. This is not real life. This is 40k. You can make that distinction, can't you?
a Imperial Guard senior officer leaving his regiment behind to go commando is dumb.
Gaunt's Ghosts, anyone? There's plenty of times where senior staff of the Tanith 1st go on solo missions or otherwise in tiny kill teams to go fight the enemy.

Gaunt does this all the time, and he's a Colonel-Commissar.
It's especially dumb in a universe and in an organization that has plenty of people whose job it is to go in alone (or in very small group) to conduct special missions.
Except this is universe which has established that their leaders often lead these small group incursions, no matter their rank or strategic importance.

This is common in 40k.
If the company champion didn't exist it would make sense to call the captain the champion and of his company, but alas, the fluff says that the Company Champion is the the champion of the company because that's what those words means.
So why is Captain Sicarius the Knight Champion of Macragge, when he has both a Company Champion, and a Chapter Champion? Why does Calgar go toe to toe with an Avatar when that should be the Chapter Champion's job? Why do Space Marine Captains even carry their sacred relic weapons, when they would be more useful on these company champions who seemingly never show up?

The company champion exists when the Captain doesn't want to play protagonist. It's that simple.
That's why the Captain isn't the best psyker in the company either nor the most faithful and keeper of the tradition, nor the tech expert, nor a field medic.
In Chapters where those roles are shared, Captains absolutely *are* those. Examples being the Thousand Sons (whose Captains were nearly all masterful psykers) and Word Bearers (whose Captains were also Chaplain equivalents too).
You can make this distinction correct? If you can accept this distinction why can't you seem to accept that for the poor Company Champion or the poor Scout Master?
It's funny you bring in Scout Master, because Telion, a Marine so talented that he has been offered placement in the Honour Guard three times (to my recollection), often goes on solo missions and operations, despite being a high ranking officer within the Scout Company.

I don't accept that distinction, because GW don't. According to GW, Captains *do* act as champions and frontline heroes, because GW decided that that's how leaders act in 40k.
You know how to make the difference between stuff that make sense within a universe and just terrible writing about that universe do you? gak writing exist, you don't need to eat it and say yum-yum, that is so tasty.
And you well know that I'm happy to call out writing that negatively influences the world, and harms it. This ain't it.

I don't see the harm in Space Marine Captains acting more like mythological heroes where leadership means leading from the front and being an action hero - that's a *feature* of the setting to me, not a bug.

You say "makes sense in universe" - the universe we have been presented with indicates that Captains doing this *is* normal. Therefore, it makes sense in-universe. Honestly, if I saw a Space Marine Captain who refused to do any front-line work, I'd be more surprised about that than one who kept going to the front lines.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/13 19:54:59



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Made in ca
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 Gert wrote:

Personally, I find it hilarious that because I dared to present an image of an environment found Space Marine as an example of standard Imperial architecture, that you've decided to go on this huge rant about how much you hate the game. Hey in CoD: MW2 you can lie down in front of a tank in a ghillie suit in the mission set in Pripyat and not get spotted, does that mean Pripyat doesn't exist?


It does mean that CoD: MW2 isn't informative on how that specific war looked like on the terrain and in reality. It's just convenience. Trying to say well in that game it was possible so reality must be like that is rather stupid.

Having the same rank name doesn't mean they do the same thing. A captain of a naval vessel doesn't lead a company of troops so obviously they aren't real captains. Captain America often acts alone or leads a small elite team rather than a company but he obviously isn't a real captain either. What about a Army/Navy lawyer who also holds the rank of captain, they aren't leading troops into battle so they must not be real captains. Hell, what about the various Khans, Wolf Lords, Marshalls, and Commanders of other Chapters that don't follow Codex specific language, they can't be real captains either.


That's why I specifically referred to a US army captain in a combat unit, you know the equivalent of a Space Marine Captain. A US army captain in a combat unit is just like a Space Marine captain down to the number of people under their command.


Have you considered that captain is an honorific as well as a rank and that being a captain doesn't mean you must lead troops into battle at all times and can instead delegate command to a senior Sergeant (who BTW is still going to have decades if not longer of combat experience) if a more vital mission presents itself, such as securing a weapon that has the potential to win a war with one shot?


If the sergeant is just as good, he should do it. Or the Scout Master should do it, his the infiltration and stealth specialist after all, or the 1st company should form a strike squad to do it. A captain could lead a strike force or a small group in some occasion, but completely alone on purpose is absurd.

epronovost wrote:
mand squad to eliminate a Chaos device that will cause immense destruction and to kill the Alpha Legion Daemon Prince, Kernax Voldorius, while the rest of his Company and that of Korsarro Khan's take on the bulk of the Alpha Legion and their cultist allies forces.
Watch Captain Artemis leads a Kill Team in an attempt to neutralise an Ork Warboss and stop a Waaaaagh! in it's tracks before it reaches a vital Imperial port.
Captain Daerys Arrun of the Silver Skulls leads a strike team in an attempt to kill Huron Blackheart while the rest of his Company secures a Refinery.
Aethon Shaan of the Raven Guard leads a specialised team to capture the renegade Ardaric Vaanes.


Congratulation, your examples of Captains fighting alone all include the word teams and all include the characters commanding troops during most of the book, but accomplishing specific objectives within a battle with a team. Also one of your example is a member of the Deathwatch which all operates as commandos for the Inquisition.


I'm sure the Chapter that specialises in killing Xenos armed with a neurotoxin designed to kill Synapse creatures is in no way going to be effective against the Xenos Synapse creature. No way at aaaaaaall.


Of course it makes no sense at all. How are you going to apply that toxin through the mountains of armored chitin as hard as a titan's armor, the psychic shield and its mind melting psychic powers? Having poison to kill it is fine, applying it with the means of a few Space Marines is absurd. They are not carrying a six meters long "power needle" nor a battery of armor piercing missiles designed to pierce the armor and shields of overlord titans to deliver a deadly payload of poison. Could a grenade kill the pilot of a Titan? Absolutely. Does that mean you have a way to deliver that grenade inside the cockpit where it would be deadly? Absolutely not.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/13 20:14:54


 
   
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epronovost wrote:That's why I specifically referred to a US army captain in a combat unit, you know the equivalent of a Space Marine Captain. A US army captain in a combat unit is just like a Space Marine captain down to the number of people under their command.
Up until the point when the US Army Captain isn't 7 foot tall genetically engineered freak, with walking tank armour, a relic sword and shield, and lives in a fictional universe where single combat and melee are considered smart tactical manoeuvres.

40k isn't reality. Why are we applying real life logic to this? What does applying real life logic *do* for the setting? In what way would this better 40k?


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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
epronovost wrote:That's why I specifically referred to a US army captain in a combat unit, you know the equivalent of a Space Marine Captain. A US army captain in a combat unit is just like a Space Marine captain down to the number of people under their command.
Up until the point when the US Army Captain isn't 7 foot tall genetically engineered freak, with walking tank armour, a relic sword and shield, and lives in a fictional universe where single combat and melee are considered smart tactical manoeuvres.

40k isn't reality. Why are we applying real life logic to this? What does applying real life logic *do* for the setting? In what way would this better 40k?


It does follow this concept of reality. In real life, in a combat unit, a captain leads around 60 to 200 people. The same is true for Space Marine Captain. Both have the same battlefield role. They are both field officers. They both command troops in combat zones and participate in the combat in question. Sure, they look different don't have the same weapons and don't use the same tactics, neither do the US army captains of WW1 and those of today even if their job, ranks, function, number of men under their command is the same as it was. The truth is that in both our universe and 40K universe captains do the jobs of captains. Just like in our universe humans poo and in 40K universe humans also poo.
   
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epronovost wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
epronovost wrote:That's why I specifically referred to a US army captain in a combat unit, you know the equivalent of a Space Marine Captain. A US army captain in a combat unit is just like a Space Marine captain down to the number of people under their command.
Up until the point when the US Army Captain isn't 7 foot tall genetically engineered freak, with walking tank armour, a relic sword and shield, and lives in a fictional universe where single combat and melee are considered smart tactical manoeuvres.

40k isn't reality. Why are we applying real life logic to this? What does applying real life logic *do* for the setting? In what way would this better 40k?


It does follow this concept of reality. In real life, in a combat unit, a captain leads around 60 to 200 people. The same is true for Space Marine Captain. Both have the same battlefield role. They are both field officers. They both command troops in combat zones and participate in the combat in question.
I'm sorry, but that's not enough to claim that they should function exactly the same, because that misses the crucial details that Space Marines are not human, and that 40k does not function like the real world.

Sure, they look different don't have the same weapons and don't use the same tactics, neither do the US army captains of WW1 and those of today even if their job, ranks, function, number of men under their command is the same as it was. The truth is that in both our universe and 40K universe captains do the jobs of captains.
Except that you note that they have different tactics - tactics which include "going solo to beat the enemy leader in single combat because I'm a badass".

40k is not reality. GW have made it very clear that their Captains are not like real life captains.
Just like in our universe humans poo and in 40K universe humans also poo.
Because we have been shown no evidence to suggest otherwise. However, the same cannot be said for Captains, who are regularly shown to go off and perform solo feats of daring and might.

Again - that's just how 40k is, and I don't see what's problematic about that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/13 20:26:17



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epronovost wrote:
It does mean that CoD: MW2 isn't informative on how that specific war looked like on the terrain and in reality. It's just convenience. Trying to say well in that game it was possible so reality must be like that is rather stupid.

Pripyat is in Ukraine, it's where the Chernobyl plant was. The point I'm making here is that by your bad logic because one section of the game doesn't conform to reality (in SM's case it's background), none of it does. Which is an absurd stance to take.

That's why I specifically referred to a US army captain in a combat unit, you know the equivalent of a Space Marine Captain. A US army captain in a combat unit is just like a Space Marine captain down to the number of people under their command.

An equivalent to a US Army captain would be an Astra Militarum captain because the organisations are far more similar.
The equivalent of a SM Captain would be a feudal Lord but with genetic enhancements, Power Armour and future weapons.

If the sergeant is just as good, he should do it. Or the Scout Master should do it, his the infiltration and stealth specialist after all, or the 1st company should form a strike squad to do it. A captain could lead a strike force or a small group in some occasion, but completely alone on purpose is absurd.

Where did I say all SM Captains operate alone all the time? You had false conceptions of Space Marine and I corrected you.
And just to argue your point, not all strike forces can call upon Scout or Veteran support. And have you ever heard of the phrase "If you want something done, do it yourself"? A Captain could trust a Sergeant to command the Company for a short absence but not necessarily for a vital/time-sensitive/extremely dangerous mission. The only difference in the duties of the Sergeant at that point would be "keep doing what you're doing but you get to tell more people what to do". If that Captain dies, that Sergeant would continue to lead the Company until a new Captain was selected. Being a senior Sergeant doesn't entitle you to the Captaincy, just like being 1st Captain doesn't mean you'll be the next Chapter Master.

epronovost wrote:
Congratulation, your examples of Captains fighting alone all include the word teams and all include the characters commanding troops during most of the book, but accomplishing specific objectives within a battle with a team. Also one of your example is a member of the Deathwatch which all operates as commandos for the Inquisition.

I never argued Captains would fight alone. The Deathwatch example was to prove that Captains can operate without commanding their entire Company. The Deathwatch has Watch Companies which Artemis commands one of.

Of course it makes no sense at all. How are you going to apply that toxin through the mountains of armored chitin as hard as a titan's armor, the psychic shield and its mind melting power. Having poison to kill it is fine, applying it with the means of a few Space Marines is absurd. Could a grenade kill the pilot of a Titan, absolutely, does that mean you have a way to deliver that grenade absolutely not.

With the weapons that are designed to kill Xenos, you know the Specialist Ammunition weapons with shells that melt flesh, penetrate armour and set fire to their innards. Of course all of these Astartes are also not only Veterans of their Chapter but also receive additional training and conditioning to make them even more effective against Xenos. Deathwatch Astartes are put in a torture device that forces them to live out the deaths of other Astartes at the hands of Xenos to increase their hatred and Xenophobia to a point where utter annihilation is the only thing they consider. And Titans, especially the larger ones, are known to be vulnerable to commando raids. If you get inside the leg and plant some bombs, that Titan is scunnered for days until repairs can be made.

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 Gert wrote:

With the weapons that are designed to kill Xenos, you know the Specialist Ammunition weapons with shells that melt flesh, penetrate armour and set fire to their innards. Of course all of these Astartes are also not only Veterans of their Chapter but also receive additional training and conditioning to make them even more effective against Xenos. Deathwatch Astartes are put in a torture device that forces them to live out the deaths of other Astartes at the hands of Xenos to increase their hatred and Xenophobia to a point where utter annihilation is the only thing they consider. And Titans, especially the larger ones, are known to be vulnerable to commando raids. If you get inside the leg and plant some bombs, that Titan is scunnered for days until repairs can be made.


And those munitions aren't capable killing outright freakin' carnifex, it takes a couple of volleys, yet I'm to believe it can injure a creature with a chitin the thickness of an entire carnifex itself (maybe more) and a powerful psychic shield that can repel titan strength weaponry? Yeah, a heavy machinegun can do that...sure...that's not terrible mind melting stupidity.

Titans are vulnerable to some infantry raids because they are a vehicles. A person can get inside of them. Norn Queen and other bio-titans are monsters. You can't get inside them (or if you are congratulation you have been eaten). No matter how much they hate them, a handful of Space Marines can't kill tyranid bio-titans by their lonesome. They need other titans or superweapons of epic proportions or an entire army of them, especially not the single most powerful Tyranid organism.

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Do you actually know what a Norn-Queen is? It's a giant reproductive organism. It doesn't have psychic powers or weapons of any kind. They don't leave the Bioships.
What you are describing is a Heirophant Bio-Titan.

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 Gert wrote:
Do you actually know what a Norn-Queen is? It's a giant reproductive organism. It doesn't have psychic powers or weapons of any kind. They don't leave the Bioships.
What you are describing is a Heirophant Bio-Titan.


Norn Queen are a reproductive organism that lives in symbiosis an inside a Dominatrix, the largest and most powerful bio-titans of the tyranids, a monster that exceeds in power and strength Heirophants by quite a margin. Turns out that the Hive Mind, which is the collective consciousness of all Norn Queens, isn't dumb to the point of not considering its most important organism worthy of the best protection and defense available.

Seriously, most of Uriel Ventris books could be described as "my OC Space Marine Captains defeats the strongest dudes in every faction". It's basically professionally published bad fanfiction level of writing. It's filled with idiocies like that or the "I scared death with a weapon carried by Eldar militia".

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Vatsetis wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Vatsetis wrote:
Sure but funnily enough thats were oversized and overweight SM are ment to do their job... At least in a significant number of occasions.

Canonically, most of the battlespaces in 40K do not have corridors that are a significant impediment to Space Marines. Nor have I seen much evidence to the contrary.


Well thats because if SM couldnt actually perform their tasks it will be absurd in a non functional level... so the setting sort of creates its own rules... call it the "Hollywood Logic"...
It's just straight up logic that an Imperial ship requires passages large enough to fit members of the mechanicum with extra arms, heavy armor and big hats. It also makes sense that the same corridors are large enough to fit Terminator Armor, since Terminator Armor is actually derived from protective armor for plasma core maintenence. It also makes sense that many ship corridors be large enough to move various sizes of equipment through them.

Yes, as Space Marines get larger in size, it becomes less and less plausible. I'm not expecting Centurions to get to the same places a Mk7 Firstborn can. But they don't have to. And always there are still Scouts, which are basically just big dudes.


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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epronovost wrote:

Norn Queen are a reproductive organism that lives in symbiosis an inside a Dominatrix, the largest and most powerful bio-titans of the tyranids, a monster that exceeds in power and strength Heirophants by quite a margin. Turns out that the Hive Mind, which is the collective consciousness of all Norn Queens, isn't dumb to the point of not considering its most important organism worthy of the best protection and defense available.

Norn Queens are part of a Hive Ship and are the production point for most Tyranid organisms. They don't go near the battlefield. The Imperium has encountered exactly one Norn Queen throughout all the Tyrannic Wars and it was the one that Ventris and the Deathwatch killed. Which only made things worse in the long run because for every Norn Queen that dies more grow on other Hive Ships, its called the Hydra Effect.
   
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Yeah Marines fight Hive ships by boarding them and damaging/destroying vital organs.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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epronovost wrote:
mean that CoD: MW2 isn't informative on how that specific war looked like on the terrain and in reality. It's just convenience.


Modern Warfare 2 is possibly the biggest modern example of falsified history. He’s might be fething with you. If someone says MW2 I’m definitely never taking anything they say seriously. And very much to the point, Pripyat in the game is definitely not going to be a 1:1 recreation of Pripyat irl.

In space Marine almost every ceiling is going to be at least two feet taller than the main character. It’s a third person game, that’s where the POV is. If they do use a lower ceiling, it’s for a specific section of the game where the challenge is not being able to see past the guy. Everything in that game is design driven, you’ve been right since a page ago.

I think there’s another level. Even using a captain at all is because of the TT design. Marines are really good at killing in the setting. However for 23 years the basic marine hasn’t been able to even scratch the armor save of a single enemy model in most games they were in. Ridiculously, the basic marine was a background chump and the only model who could do anything impressive is a close combat HQ character. That’s it, that’s the reason a captain with one or two buddies star in the space marine vidya game and in the space wolf mobile game. Otherwise the main character could easily have been a vet or troop like Kais was. it might even have been more of a shooter.
   
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The Modern Warfare series isn't falsified history it's alt history. The point I was trying to make was the despite certain aspects of the game not pertaining to reality the locations were fairly accurate, which is what I was trying to present with images from Space Marine. It doesn't matter if Titus can take on a million Orks and CSM because the environments the game takes place in are accurate to the background of 40k.
   
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Curvaceous wrote:
Everything in the 40k video games including the architecture has a glaring game design cause and a flimsy in-universe explanation to paper it over. Just like the romantic oil paintings and the bayeux tapestry, it’s not even meant to be anatomically or architecturally accurate.
What's to stop the same being said of *all* 40k media? Such as Space Marines being able to move through buildings unhindered - another in-universe explanation to allow Space Marines to do what they do. Is that just another "flimsy" explanation?

At which point, what *is* accurate to what 40k is meant to be?

I'm not saying the games are canon, but what I am asking is what reason have we to believe that the architecture presented in that game isn't accurate to the rest of 40k? After all, the whole thing is a fictional universe, with flimsy in-universe explanations - but if those explanations are all we're given, and they contribute positively to the setting overall, why should they not be considered truthful in setting?


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You can rely on the sourcebooks: chapter approved articles and background sections. There are two reasons. One, they aren’t encumbered by things like needing space for the point of view or video game “camera,” having to make shooting galleries and other fun sequences, and for the odd circumstance of having one or two characters instead of two or more squads.

Second and more importantly, they’re the source. The reason the vidya was made and the reasons people buy it are the concepts from the source material.

And sometimes it’s like watching a 110 minute movie. It doesn’t tell you everything, doesn’t tell you the cellular biology of the gremlins from gremlins, so while that likely exists in-universe you’ll never find out what it is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But like we know the ceilings need to be high for the game camera and the gameplay. What’s the equivalent that for the 2019 updated chaos codex, or widdle Jes Goodwin sitting next to all that taped-together a4?

In space marine the vidya they had to make arches 9+ feet high cause it’s a video game and had to make the captain fight by himself because it’s a video game

In a source book, they don’t have technical constraints and they also don’t have a plot to compromise for the way a novel does. The source books say a marine is about the same height as a mass produced pre-hung interior door in 2021. And it’s just words on paper with no rules of literature to really effect it/

Also space marine is a derivative work based on the source material and the source material is just itself. To some extent the current codexes are merchandising that’s derivative of the ‘90s sources but they are largely reprinting and paraphrasing those older ones so that’s often ok.

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