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Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Kanluwen wrote:

Also, because Cadia's the best. Deal with it.

Good talk!

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Hardened Veteran Guardsman





 Kanluwen wrote:
 waefre_1 wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

And that answers the question not one bit. The hits connected. AP-4 means no save. No dodging or armour. So what makes your little Cadians harder to wound than an Ork? Or a Rhino?

Ever tried to squash a fly with bare hands?

Yes. Either I miss (due to hairs the fly has which can detect the minute pressure variations that precede something big intersecting with the fly's temporospatial coordinates), or the fly gets squished. Usually the latter

See, harder to wound.

 waefre_1 wrote:
...Either I miss...

Nnnnno, harder to hit. If I do hit, it's pretty easy to wound (and remember, "taking a wound" means "becoming combat ineffective", not necessarily "instagibbed". Even if you don't kill the fly, you can still stun or injure them with a near miss and while I'm not going to pretend I'm an expert on DEW or anything, I'd have to imagine that a similarly near-miss with a Volcano Cannon would still cause some pretty nasty thermal injuries to a person).

I get the point you're aiming (pun intended) at here, but the reason I had that parenthetical about fly hairs is that the reason that swatting flies with you bare hands is that flies have a phenomenal capacity for dodging shots, not tanking them. Flyswatters and rolled-up newspapers are better for flyswatting due to them causing less of a pressure differential than a hand (due to perforations and roundness respectively, IIRC), and thus making it harder for the fly to sense its impending doom.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/14 19:58:35


 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Gathering the Informations.

Yes, and the reason I made the point I did is that the argument initially made was that the shot hit and wounded but now for some reason we're talking about armor not being a thing while still grousing about the harder to wound status.

Someone already blew the stratagem. You still wounded on anything but a 1 or a 2. The fly is already dead or already dodged or cover interspersed or whatever. It's a pointless metric to be upset about at that point.

This whole thing is just a repeat of the "Conscripts can destroy a baneblade in one round of shooting!".

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Kanluwen wrote:
This whole thing is just a repeat of the "Conscripts can destroy a baneblade in one round of shooting!".



The good ol' days!

   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Guess H.B.M.C. was right.
This is something y'all should be used to by now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/14 22:07:11


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Powerful Pegasus Knight






Well back to the Bolt Action grind

"Don't Feed the Troll"

ETC is the forum equivalent of a short bus. 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





If we're still talking about the damn strat that ignores wound rolls of 1 or 2, and you're seeking a narrative to explain it, the way Whitewolf RPGs explained similar rules was "Rolling with the punch" - the idea being that it still hit me, but because I fought in a planet spanning war that destroyed my homeworld, I learned how to move with the impact, provided the wound was not too egregious (which is why I can only do it when the wound roll is 1 or 2). Moving with the impact this way takes mental focus (which is why I have to burn a strat, and it's not always on).

If all of those conditions are met, then moving with the impact allows me to remain combat effective- not necessarily unwounded, but healthy enough to stay conscious and continue to aim and fire.

If the shot isn't from a particularly powerful weapon (ie. only does 1 damage), I can also move with that impact to make more of the armour I'm wearing.

There's the narrative.
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




PenitentJake wrote:
If we're still talking about the damn strat that ignores wound rolls of 1 or 2, and you're seeking a narrative to explain it, the way Whitewolf RPGs explained similar rules was "Rolling with the punch" - the idea being that it still hit me, but because I fought in a planet spanning war that destroyed my homeworld, I learned how to move with the impact, provided the wound was not too egregious (which is why I can only do it when the wound roll is 1 or 2). Moving with the impact this way takes mental focus (which is why I have to burn a strat, and it's not always on).

If all of those conditions are met, then moving with the impact allows me to remain combat effective- not necessarily unwounded, but healthy enough to stay conscious and continue to aim and fire.

If the shot isn't from a particularly powerful weapon (ie. only does 1 damage), I can also move with that impact to make more of the armour I'm wearing.

There's the narrative.


That isn't narrative. That's fanon mindcaulk for nonsense.

And even if wasn't, it still doesn't justify why it works for teenage conscripts from one planet, but not 30 year vets from another, let alone genetically engineered supersoldiers, nigh-immortal aliens, spirits or super-technomagic tanks forged outside reality itself.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/16 02:08:40


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Voss wrote:


That isn't narrative. That's fanon mindcaulk for nonsense.


If so, it's "Nonsense" that has been employed by other games to explain similar rules.

Voss wrote:

And even if wasn't, it still doesn't justify why it works for teenage conscripts from one planet, but not 30 year vets from another, let alone genetically engineered supersoldiers, nigh-immortal aliens, spirits or super-technomagic tanks forged outside reality itself.


See, that's what I thought too. But after arguing with HBMC, I figured I should reread the article to make sure I had my sh*t right, cuz he's pretty passionate about this and it wasn't really fair of me to argue against him so hard without due diligence.

The Whiteshield thing is a whole other strat, and has nothing to with Cadia Stands, which is the strat everyone's got their knickers in a twist about, and it is available to all Cadian infantry, not just Whiteshields.

And the reason the other factions don't have to learn to roll with the punches is that they have other defense mechanisms- Marines tend to rely on their armour instead- and it also makes the fine motor control necessary to do this a bit more difficult. Small and medium Nids and Eldar do it with speed, which is more of a dodge effect, big nids have bulk and chitin; crons rely on living metal. Now what I can't explain is why Old Marines can't transhuman while Primaris can- a similar rule with different fluff, but here I'm with HBMC, cuz the fluff explanation for this strat (though it's rules are similar to Cadia stands) is in the name of the strat, and both Old Marines and Primaris DO have transhuman physiology.

But squishy humans- those strong enough to survive the fall of Cadia, well, some of them learned to Roll With It Baby. They can't always do it, cause it's freaking hard. As mentioned before, even when they have the mental stamina to attempted, they can't twist out of a particularly heavy hit (wound roll of 3+), and twisting their armour into the path of the shot isn't effective against high damage attacks (the other half of the strat, which no one is really complaining about).

And look, if you've decided that you hate the rule and rules like it (transhuman) because of the impact it has on the game (and HBMC does- his HATRED of this rule AND transhuman burns as bright as the freakin sun), that's okay. We can talk about that. I'm not even sure the rule is great for the game. In another thread, where HBMC was ranting about these two strats, rather than simply say they shouldn't exist (like he did in his response to me), he actually proposed changes to the rule that would have made it feel more acceptable to him, and some of them weren't bad.

It's okay to hate the rule. It's okay to want to change it. It's okay to want it gone.

But there are dozens of examples of people surviving against the odds or doing crazy, insane, miraculous things right here in the real world that are no more unrealistic than the scenario I described. You don't have to invalidate my explanation in order to justify hating the rule. I know a dude who was hit by a truck doing 50 kph dead on and thrown 15 feet without dropping the lighter he was holding. I had three friends go over a five story balcony- one hung on in a coma for five days before leaving us, another broke both legs and the third got up and staggered around in shock until the ambulance arrived. Sh*t like this does happen whether YOU think it's realistic or not. I've been there. The guy who got up? His controlling player burned the strat. The other two didn't. One per turn, right?

(Sorry Louie.. But you always did have the best sense humour, and I know you'd laugh it off if you were still here... even if you never understood me and my "Nerd games" RIP)

These types of occurrences, because of their rarity, are best represented by strats (if it all). They are meant to be extraordinary feats that happen rarely, if at all. Only a handful of these kind of events will ever happen in any given battle.

I personally don't mind these rules, because I feel like their limitations prevent or at least mitigate abuse. One unit can do this once per turn. Not a game breaker- for me anyway.

This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2021/10/16 03:20:40


 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

PenitentJake wrote:
If so, it's "Nonsense" that has been employed by other games to explain similar rules.


'Rolling with the punch' might be a decent mechanic for, like, a barroom brawl game, but it's downright stupid as a justification for shrugging damage in a sci-fi battlefield context.

You can't 'roll with' a bullet to mitigate its damage.

PenitentJake wrote:
These types of occurrences, because of their rarity, are best represented by strats (if it all).


We've always had weird one-off events. The Guardsman that rolls three sixes on his armor save, or the missile launcher that rolls a 1 to wound him.

The difference is that those rare and statistically improbable events were rare and statistically improbable because they were mediated by dice. Stratagems are rock-solid reliable, at the limitation of requiring CP and only being usable once per turn. They're not rare occurrences and there's nothing extraordinary about them when you can use them whenever you want.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/16 13:58:00


   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





 catbarf wrote:


We've always had weird one-off events. The Guardsman that rolls three sixes on his armor save, or the missile launcher that rolls a 1 to wound him.

The difference is that those rare and statistically improbable events were rare and statistically improbable because they were mediated by dice. Stratagems are rock-solid reliable, at the limitation of requiring CP and only being usable once per turn. They're not rare occurrences and there's nothing extraordinary about them when you can use them whenever you want.


This is the best response I've seen to any of the posts I have made in this thread and others like it. So good, in fact, that there isn't really a comeback.

Nice work.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Why are Catachans S4?

It doesn't make sense that they're as strong as marines.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:
Why are Catachans S4?

It doesn't make sense that they're as strong as marines.


Better question, why isn't their a Space Marine Chapter headquartered on their home planet since the locals are such badasses? Base S5 Marines

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Gathering the Informations.

SemperMortis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Why are Catachans S4?

It doesn't make sense that they're as strong as marines.


Better question, why isn't their a Space Marine Chapter headquartered on their home planet since the locals are such badasses? Base S5 Marines

Same reason there wasn't one on Cadia.

The planet's Guard tithes are considered important.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Kanluwen wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Why are Catachans S4?

It doesn't make sense that they're as strong as marines.


Better question, why isn't their a Space Marine Chapter headquartered on their home planet since the locals are such badasses? Base S5 Marines

Same reason there wasn't one on Cadia.

The planet's Guard tithes are considered important.


... I mean...technically cadia doesn't have guard tithes anymore....just saying

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in ie
Ship's Officer





SemperMortis wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Why are Catachans S4?

It doesn't make sense that they're as strong as marines.


Better question, why isn't their a Space Marine Chapter headquartered on their home planet since the locals are such badasses? Base S5 Marines

Same reason there wasn't one on Cadia.

The planet's Guard tithes are considered important.


... I mean...technically cadia doesn't have guard tithes anymore....just saying


You talk like being destroyed makes it exempt.


 
   
Made in us
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?




Noctis Labyrinthus

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Kan plays Cadians, so he doesn't care. That's the simple answer. He doesn't want to admit it (and certainly never would), but that's the truth.




I certainly don't play Cadians or any guard regiment and I also don't care.
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






TBF Cadia is both the name of a System and a Planet within that system. Then on top of that there's the Cadian Gate which is an area of space outwith the System.
Cadian Regiments garrisoned all of this and still sent thousands more out into the galaxy at large. They are also often used as training Regiments sent to worlds that are sending out their own newly raised armies. Or older Regiments get settled status, a rarity but it still happens, and then take up arms again when the time comes.
To suggest that since Cadia the planet is gone therefore there should be no more Cadian Regiments is just ludicrous
   
 
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