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Spoletta wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
As long as boyz are slugga, choppa, shoota, big shoota, rokkit and a nob, I don't think you will ever find a correct points value for them.
You have like ten datasheets in the codex that are essentially boyz+1 (burnas, lootas, kommadoz, nobz, storm boyz, tankbustas...), with either the same or better weapons and extra rules. The only thing that makes them special is objective secured which almost never matters because they die too quickly to make use of it.

Without adding anything that just boyz can do, either the extra rules and gear is worth the extra points and you don't run boyz, or it's not and you get boyz spam with all other variants being obsolete again.

The only thing that would make orks bring boyz without spamming them would be upgrades similar to the trukk boyz specialist mob. For example, they could bring back 'ard boyz as an upgrade you can put on one mob per army.
Or add a stratagem that allows you to slap extra specialist mobs on boyz.


That's my same position on most of the troops in the game.
There shouldn't be an arms race between troops and elites with the "most efficient one" being the one taken at all times.

The efficient ones should be the elites. The troops should be the ones that interact best with the rest of the army and its theme.
You either are choke full of single targeted buffs which by their nature work best on high model count units (which typically are the troops), like Admech, Necrons and now Tyranids, or your troops interact very well with the underlying mechanics of the faction, like rubrics.

Orks have very bad single targeted buffs/stratagems, so there is no reason to play big mobz of boyz, and everyone ends up taking the elite versions. If the warbosses granted a single target buff which made a unit immune to morale, maybe you would see more boyz around.


It's ironic you mention the last part, because we did quite literally have something that was like that with Breakin Eads, but GW in their infinite wisdom made it a once per phase strat that costs 2CP as well as still inflict the D3 mortal wounds.

I do agree though, that you can tell why boyz fell out of favour partly because we pretty much lost all the inherent rules support that made boyz work overnight. Mob rule was gutted, we lost Warboss and Nob morale support, we didn't get any real buffs for taking big units, lost Unstoppable Green Tide AND the KFF was nerfed.
   
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Correct. The biggest issue is always going to be morale. The next biggest is delivery options. At the moment the only "cost efficient" way to get there is walking and that isn't a smart way to use boyz unless you are running green tide and can absorb the absolutely horrendous losses you will incur before you get stuck into combat.

Every other delivery option is over priced or functionally useless. A regular trukk is 70pts and only guarantees a 2nd turn charge, but at that point your army is paying 160pts for 10 boyz, or 16ppm, almost Space Marine prices. And if the trukk pops which isn't hard against dedicated anti-tank fire, that unit is functionally dead/ignorable until turn 2-3.

Trukk Boyz, the one per detachment unit are useful because they can get out, move and charge turn 1, this gives them a massive turn 1 thread range of 38' or an average of 30. I could see boyz in trukkz being used if this became the norm for those trukkz, but otherwise no.

Da Jump. It got nerfed with the change of Waaagh energy, it got nerfed because you need a successful charge afterwards and Ere We Go itself was nerfed so you have to re-roll both dice instead of choosing 1 and of course the weirdboy himself got nerfed in a points increase. All told its not reliable.

All the same problems as far as ere we go are the same for tellyporta strike, too unreliable to make the charge.

Movement, I just don't understand how a guardsmen can move 6, but an Ork who is as tall as a Marine can only move 5. A Faction renowned for running across the board is somehow slower than the guardsmen. Doesn't make any sense.

 Tomsug wrote:
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on the forum. Obviously

Yeah orks being move 5 is weird. I suppose its a reference to how they used to be I2, but they also had Furious Charge to compensate. You'd think that a race of barbaric aliens who's preferred way of fighting is to just charge in would move a bit faster than a Necron.

They should really be move 6 base.
The fact that you have to take a specific clan to get your infantry to move that fast is just silly.

Trukks are overpriced, imo. Back in 5th ed they were 35pts iirc, and that seemed fair.
I really don't understand the design philosophy in the 9th ed codex. They nerfed green tide, KFF and psychic powers to encourage you to go mechanized, but they also made trukks expensive and you can't charge out of them, meaning that your small squad of poorly armored infantry is target practice for a turn. They may be T5 now, but they still only have one wound and GW hasn't learned from 7th ed and made everything highly lethal again with the dice spam.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/23 14:14:35


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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Trukks are overpriced, imo. Back in 5th ed they were 35pts iirc, and that seemed fair.


Maybe they're overpriced, but when they were 35ppm and seemed fair a single heavy bolter hit could kill them instantly, it was a shock not to lose 4+ in a single turn if they were the target priority. They are now much much more resilient than they used to be, just losing more than 2 in one turn is not expected on a regular basis, even if they are the top priority.

I think most of the units that need trukks are overpriced, maybe trukks could get a 5-10ppm drop but I like them as they are. If anything I'd add some melee ability in order to justify their costs, instead of making them cheaper. Now put Lootas, Tankbustas, Flash Gitz in line with more reasonable prices instead. Make boyz worthy of their 9ppm price tag also. Then trukks won't feel overpriced. Rhinos aren't and they're basically the same thing.

 
   
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 Blackie wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Trukks are overpriced, imo. Back in 5th ed they were 35pts iirc, and that seemed fair.


Maybe they're overpriced, but when they were 35ppm and seemed fair a single heavy bolter hit could kill them instantly, it was a shock not to lose 4+ in a single turn if they were the target priority. They are now much much more resilient than they used to be, just losing more than 2 in one turn is not expected on a regular basis, even if they are the top priority.

I think most of the units that need trukks are overpriced, maybe trukks could get a 5-10ppm drop but I like them as they are. If anything I'd add some melee ability in order to justify their costs, instead of making them cheaper. Now put Lootas, Tankbustas, Flash Gitz in line with more reasonable prices instead. Make boyz worthy of their 9ppm price tag also. Then trukks won't feel overpriced. Rhinos aren't and they're basically the same thing.


Trukkz were over priced in those editions as well. You paid 35pts for the likely chance of killing your own models. You HAD to take 6-9 of them to have a chance of 2-3 getting across the table. They still are flimsy compared to similar options other factions have and they are in need of some kind of role outside of "Im a transport and then I might eat ovewatch". I think a 10ppm price cut along with going to WS3+ would be fair. At that point their weapon upgrades don't seem like a complete waste of time, though I would change those so you can use ALL your attacks on them as opposed to 1.

I do second your point though that instead of other price cuts it would make more sense to make those units WORTH taking at their current values. A lot of our "infantry" choices are kind of suspect atm. Tankbustas are too unreliable, lootas and burnas don't do enough dmg still, Nobz are over priced. really the only infantry I take are Kommandos and Trukk boyz and only because they mesh with my alphork strike list.

 Tomsug wrote:
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Yeah a lot of the specialist orks are expensive for what they offer. The balancing isn't great.

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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah a lot of the specialist orks are expensive for what they offer. The balancing isn't great.


The balancing is terrible, but realistically look at the tournament lists placing right now in regards to the infantry that are being taken.

You have MSU Stormboyz/Kommandos who are being used to cap objectives and do actions, you might have 1 unit of MSU troops, either grots or occasionally boyz, they serve the exact same purpose but help by reducing CP expenditure. That is it. Believe it or not, there are a host of reasons but the one similarity is that they all have morale problems and are too flimsy for what they can deliver.

Lootas don't put out enough dmg and in big mobz they die to morale.
Tankbustas can't move and shoot now without losing 50% of their dmg output, and in big squads they die to morale and targeted enemy fire.
Shoota boyz put out next to nothing dmg wise and with a 6+ save and morale issues aren't worth it.
Choppa boyz are fine dmg wise but in mobz they lose to leadership
Kommandos...honestly, in my opinion, they are the only infantry unit orkz have which can stand on its own 2 legs atm.
Nobz, a more heavily over priced boy compared to the over priced boy. 1 more base attack than a Snagga and 1 more wound, apparently Marines get this for 3pts, Nobz get it for 7.
Stormboyz just faster choppa boyz, they would be fine except that as mentioned morale and price reduces them to MSU role.

This edition is incredibly deadly, and a 6+ armor save isn't going to do much to help reduce incoming dmg, which means you need to either make them so cheap that they can absorb the casualties, so deadly that only a couple need to actually make it to combat or increase durability. GW has done none of those things for any of the above mentioned units except for Kommandos in my opinion.


 Tomsug wrote:
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After finally getting some games in...
honestly i am quite concerned about boys and their corestatline cost, which impacts a lot of the specialists.

Basically, for me atleast, there is a mainline issue and then there is side issues.

The mainline issue to me is, the fact that boys are completely non durable compared to certain fast assault units in a pts/wound/ durability effects and SV rate.

3 boy wounds cost 27 pts, a warbika is 25.
The closest thing comparatively is the shoota boy to the warbika, which shoots more, has a better gun, has the same ammount of wounds, has only 1 body which is better for morale, has a SV4+ and a native -1 to hit. nvm movement.
Basically you pay less and get more.

Squig riders show the same result but reach S 6 and T6 which are important break points due to the wound chart....

It is not helped by the fact that a truck is basically an ork buggy variant without comparable firepower in the slightest.

Spoiler:
Side line issues are stuff that is just annoying in regards to equipment, f.e. Ork boy nob being SV 6+ (all other nob or nob equivs SV4+ atleast, having no access to a shoota if you want to field shoota boys. thanks no models no rules principle.

Heavy rockits are annoying (unless your' bad moons). Which is incidentally why tankbustas are... ok... they do what they are supposed to but only because of an trick in regards to bonus BS.

Komandos got a new kit..... and got no option for shootas.. but he you can now have a souped up shoota and an big shoota and a rockit, but turning them into a shooting unit still isn't something you are allowed... because the 4th edition dex clearly was wrong when he described the shoota as favourite weapon of the humble boy and its derivatives.

Loootas don't have a trick for better bs, ergo they end up in the suck sphere, ( if the killblasta would've been dakka 5/3 then it might've been a diffrent tune for small units) but also forced Mek in 5 is annoying, nvm morale.

Stormboys are fine, but kommandos do their job better for cheaper. ( as do squig riders and koptas and warbikas and the buggy variants)


Basically, thesis. So long boy wounds are more expensive than better armored, armed and mobile wounds so long boys remain a niche pick at best.
Which incidentally would put boys atleast 1 pts cheaper just by wounds, i am more inclined to think though in regards to the far better toughness, armament and SV overall that boys should be 2-3 ppm cheaper. Shoota boys even more.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/11/29 09:02:49


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 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
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Sounds about right - especially since neither warbikers nor hogriders are super strong.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/29 09:32:21


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I actually think that boys almost should have stayed T4 and went to W2 instead. I have no idea how this would affect things but I think Nobz were W2 and didn't break the game
   
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 fraser1191 wrote:
I actually think that boys almost should have stayed T4 and went to W2 instead. I have no idea how this would affect things but I think Nobz were W2 and didn't break the game


2W wouldn't have done much TBH and I think it would have been even worse in some cases given the plethora of D2 or higher weaponry being spammed by other armies. You're basically giving an ideal target for the weapons that ramshackle helps ignore, so you're even less incentivized to take boyz than you already were in a buggy oriented list. For foot lists, they would die just as fast to the anti-infantry people can put out nowadays (watch how a min squad of incubi just carve through a boyz squad), considering that right now it's a mixture of a morale issues and KFF nerf + loss of Unstoppable Green Tide strat that murdered boyz centric lists.

As noted by previous posters, boyz just don't have anything that makes them stand out as useful compared to their specialized variants. GW would need to give them something bespoke in terms of pre-game upgrades (i.e. ard boyz) or more inherent support within the army structure before they're seen as a troop tax at best.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/30 13:49:17


 
   
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 fraser1191 wrote:
I actually think that boys almost should have stayed T4 and went to W2 instead. I have no idea how this would affect things but I think Nobz were W2 and didn't break the game


I think that would have been worse for the game honestly and would actually hurt space marines of all flavors (sadly loyalists only but hopefully pointy marines get their second wound soon) as people would be even more incentivized to run D2 weapons in their take all comers/tournament lists. I think T5 was a good idea, and if GW had left mob rule in place you would see ork boyz on the table as acceptable but not amazing troops. now give them the 6+++ ignore wounds for all infantry and mob rule back then you have a pretty good that people will take but not be game breaking (at current points)

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Orks are fine at 1W/T5.

It's just boyz that aren't working.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/30 15:18:45


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 Jidmah wrote:
Orks are fine at 1W/T5.

It's just boyz that aren't working.


Pretty much this. I think if they revised how Mob Rule/morale support within the army works (since let's be real, it's pretty much only relevant for boyz), made Painboyz/Painbosses allow you to replenish D3 or 2D3 BOYZ casualties in the case of the Painboss, and other support units like the WAAAGH! Banner filling in for the loss of the strat, boyz could be more palatable as a unit. Shootas needs a general overhaul as a weapon though.
   
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 Grimskul wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Orks are fine at 1W/T5.

It's just boyz that aren't working.


Pretty much this. I think if they revised how Mob Rule/morale support within the army works (since let's be real, it's pretty much only relevant for boyz), made Painboyz/Painbosses allow you to replenish D3 or 2D3 BOYZ casualties in the case of the Painboss, and other support units like the WAAAGH! Banner filling in for the loss of the strat, boyz could be more palatable as a unit. Shootas needs a general overhaul as a weapon though.


If you fixed morale for them they would still need a useful delivery method.

You can either foot slog it which requires green tide style list to have a chance of getting any across the table or you have to have another means of delivery. ATM Boyz have neither available to them. Ere we go got nerfed, Evil sunz +1 charge got nerfed, so now you are left with "Da Jump" and "Teleporta" which drops boyz off 9' from the enemy which sounds good, but then you remember they will be stuck with no ability to do much besides some desultory pistol shots. On your opponents turn they will double tap everything that was transported turn 2.

I would really like to see Trukkz in general gain the Trukk boy special rules. At that point you could see a return to trukk boyz. And if they did do that, you could justify the insane price for the Trukk.

 Tomsug wrote:
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SemperMortis wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Orks are fine at 1W/T5.

It's just boyz that aren't working.


Pretty much this. I think if they revised how Mob Rule/morale support within the army works (since let's be real, it's pretty much only relevant for boyz), made Painboyz/Painbosses allow you to replenish D3 or 2D3 BOYZ casualties in the case of the Painboss, and other support units like the WAAAGH! Banner filling in for the loss of the strat, boyz could be more palatable as a unit. Shootas needs a general overhaul as a weapon though.


If you fixed morale for them they would still need a useful delivery method.

You can either foot slog it which requires green tide style list to have a chance of getting any across the table or you have to have another means of delivery. ATM Boyz have neither available to them. Ere we go got nerfed, Evil sunz +1 charge got nerfed, so now you are left with "Da Jump" and "Teleporta" which drops boyz off 9' from the enemy which sounds good, but then you remember they will be stuck with no ability to do much besides some desultory pistol shots. On your opponents turn they will double tap everything that was transported turn 2.

I would really like to see Trukkz in general gain the Trukk boy special rules. At that point you could see a return to trukk boyz. And if they did do that, you could justify the insane price for the Trukk.


Very valid point. I feel like in 9th ed this is less of an issue than in 8th where the majority of objectives aren't as close to the middle and the game board is smaller, but I do definitely agree that its unwieldy handling large mobz of boyz with the new coherency rules. Should boyz have something close to a pre-game move that reflects how much they want to get stuck in? Give them a 5" headstart similar to how Bonesplitterz get their pre-game "hunting" move. Not sure if this is thematic or impactful enough, but I do agree Trukkz should have the Trukk boy rule baseline, it really feels like they don't have a purpose beyond that anyways.
   
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 Grimskul wrote:


Very valid point. I feel like in 9th ed this is less of an issue than in 8th where the majority of objectives aren't as close to the middle and the game board is smaller, but I do definitely agree that its unwieldy handling large mobz of boyz with the new coherency rules. Should boyz have something close to a pre-game move that reflects how much they want to get stuck in? Give them a 5" headstart similar to how Bonesplitterz get their pre-game "hunting" move. Not sure if this is thematic or impactful enough, but I do agree Trukkz should have the Trukk boy rule baseline, it really feels like they don't have a purpose beyond that anyways.


The smaller table size is definitely good for boyz, but remember that no-mans land is still 18' on average. That means just to get across no mans land with ork boyz takes 2 full turns with advancing 3' as well. 10+7 = 17. SO at best you can expect a turn 2 charge if your opponent doesn't move back away from your incredibly slow moving infantry list. So that means you are leaving mobz of boyz fully exposed for at least 2 shooting phases just to get them stuck into CC, and during those 2 turns they effectively have 0 impact on the game since their shooting is paltry at best.

Only reason I don't want ork boyz to get that free move before hte game starts is that it would lead to games where the entire ork army is able to get into CC turn 1 without paying a premium on transports/units. If 9ppm boyz can reliably get charges off turn 1 then the meta will suffer. My alphork strike list pulls that trick off fairly well, but I am paying 9ppm + 70pts for the Trukk boyz, 150pts for the Koptas, 75pts for the warbikes and 120ish for the Kommandos. You still wouldn't see blobs of 30 but you would see 6-12 blobs of 10 because why wouldn't you?

 Tomsug wrote:
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If our buff characters were still good and boyz has the same special rules as 8th at a more reasonable price, we might see normal boyz more. Kommandos and stormboyz don’t really go at the same pace as painboyz and big meks.

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 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
If our buff characters were still good and boyz has the same special rules as 8th at a more reasonable price, we might see normal boyz more. Kommandos and stormboyz don’t really go at the same pace as painboyz and big meks.


Very true. Stormboyz/kommandos tend to outpace buffing characters. But if you made our buffing characters worthwhile you could theoretically get away with horde style again. Painboy needs to get buffed to either 5+ or as someone else mentioned, changed to bring back D3 dead per turn. KFF...well, it needs to be buffed back to 5++ and keep its current rules, otherwise whats the point? WAAAAGH banner and warboss need better auras for boyz.

 Tomsug wrote:
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Honestly, warboss as auto pass morale and waaaagh banner as +1 to hit would be great. For the painboy 3d3 boyz would honestly make it worth it, an apothecary is able to revive much more expensive stuff.
I’d maybe make that the dok though, and the painboy is still able to give out a feel no pain?

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 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Honestly, warboss as auto pass morale and waaaagh banner as +1 to hit would be great. For the painboy 3d3 boyz would honestly make it worth it, an apothecary is able to revive much more expensive stuff.
I’d maybe make that the dok though, and the painboy is still able to give out a feel no pain?


3d3 boyz returned honestly would be too much.

That said compare the 2

Apothecary 75 points, SM stats, 3+ 4 wounds, 3 attacks, frag and crack grenades, bolt pistol, chainsword (so makes 4 attacks too, Str 4 ap-1 D1)
bestows a 6+++ within 6" and can be used to heal one model D3 wounds at end of movement

can be upgraded to

Chief Apothecary 110 points, same as above but can use the heal ability twice

special note for both, do not need to take up an elite slot if you take a veteran squad

Painboy 70 points, ork stats, 6+ save 4 wounds, 4 attacks, power claw (str 10, AP-3, D2) and urty syringe (wounds nonvehicles on a 2_ with no AP D1)
bestows a 6+++ within 3", can be used to heal up to 2 wounds on a 2+ but may inflict a mortal wound on a 1

or as HQ
Painboss 80 points, 1 more wound for 5, and gets a 4+ armor save, gives up other weapons for 1 profile str7 AP-2 D2 weapon, same might do a mortal wound when healing


to compare:
The ork models do not have a gun or grenades but their CC is a whole lot scarier. Painboy 6+ armor sucks painboss has the 4+ sicne the painbody used to be part of a nobx squad as an option, and said nobz are a 4+ that was an odd choice. Painboy has an arguably worse weapons but also does not take an elite slot and can fill an hq requirement. Apothecary being able to be taken at no slot requirement is pretty good since their elites are a lot better than the orks elites for the most part. The fact that the painboy 1/6 of the time hurts the model is... dumb from a competitive standpoint, lore wise though its spot on (might be cool to have a narrative tabel of "doc upgrades" that are rolled for when healed in crusade). As for the rest I would prefer the restore 2 wounds to D3 wounds. That said it would be cool to add D3 single wound models back into play if the unit selected has only 1 wound models not counting the Nob.

As a final note in a comparison the Apothecary is much better at thier job, the Orks pay the points for harder hitting in melee but thats really not somethign they lack in any way so i would gladly trade some of that for better heals. points for points I think the Apothecary is a little better but not liek orders of magnitude better, just more synergy with the army.

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 G00fySmiley wrote:
 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Honestly, warboss as auto pass morale and waaaagh banner as +1 to hit would be great. For the painboy 3d3 boyz would honestly make it worth it, an apothecary is able to revive much more expensive stuff.
I’d maybe make that the dok though, and the painboy is still able to give out a feel no pain?


3d3 boyz returned honestly would be too much.

That said compare the 2

Apothecary 75 points, SM stats, 3+ 4 wounds, 3 attacks, frag and crack grenades, bolt pistol, chainsword (so makes 4 attacks too, Str 4 ap-1 D1)
bestows a 6+++ within 6" and can be used to heal one model D3 wounds at end of movement

can be upgraded to

Chief Apothecary 110 points, same as above but can use the heal ability twice

special note for both, do not need to take up an elite slot if you take a veteran squad

Painboy 70 points, ork stats, 6+ save 4 wounds, 4 attacks, power claw (str 10, AP-3, D2) and urty syringe (wounds nonvehicles on a 2_ with no AP D1)
bestows a 6+++ within 3", can be used to heal up to 2 wounds on a 2+ but may inflict a mortal wound on a 1

or as HQ
Painboss 80 points, 1 more wound for 5, and gets a 4+ armor save, gives up other weapons for 1 profile str7 AP-2 D2 weapon, same might do a mortal wound when healing


to compare:
The ork models do not have a gun or grenades but their CC is a whole lot scarier. Painboy 6+ armor sucks painboss has the 4+ sicne the painbody used to be part of a nobx squad as an option, and said nobz are a 4+ that was an odd choice. Painboy has an arguably worse weapons but also does not take an elite slot and can fill an hq requirement. Apothecary being able to be taken at no slot requirement is pretty good since their elites are a lot better than the orks elites for the most part. The fact that the painboy 1/6 of the time hurts the model is... dumb from a competitive standpoint, lore wise though its spot on (might be cool to have a narrative tabel of "doc upgrades" that are rolled for when healed in crusade). As for the rest I would prefer the restore 2 wounds to D3 wounds. That said it would be cool to add D3 single wound models back into play if the unit selected has only 1 wound models not counting the Nob.

As a final note in a comparison the Apothecary is much better at thier job, the Orks pay the points for harder hitting in melee but thats really not somethign they lack in any way so i would gladly trade some of that for better heals. points for points I think the Apothecary is a little better but not liek orders of magnitude better, just more synergy with the army.



Painboyz would be just as good, they inherently know how orks work, and orks are incredibly resilient. I believe it was the 3rd Ed dex that said that boyz parts could be sewn on to another ork with 99.99% of success without rejection. The painboy also doesn’t have better melee lol, cause you’re not throwin him in there.

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 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Honestly, warboss as auto pass morale and waaaagh banner as +1 to hit would be great. For the painboy 3d3 boyz would honestly make it worth it, an apothecary is able to revive much more expensive stuff.
I’d maybe make that the dok though, and the painboy is still able to give out a feel no pain?


3d3 boyz returned honestly would be too much.

That said compare the 2

Apothecary 75 points, SM stats, 3+ 4 wounds, 3 attacks, frag and crack grenades, bolt pistol, chainsword (so makes 4 attacks too, Str 4 ap-1 D1)
bestows a 6+++ within 6" and can be used to heal one model D3 wounds at end of movement

can be upgraded to

Chief Apothecary 110 points, same as above but can use the heal ability twice

special note for both, do not need to take up an elite slot if you take a veteran squad

Painboy 70 points, ork stats, 6+ save 4 wounds, 4 attacks, power claw (str 10, AP-3, D2) and urty syringe (wounds nonvehicles on a 2_ with no AP D1)
bestows a 6+++ within 3", can be used to heal up to 2 wounds on a 2+ but may inflict a mortal wound on a 1

or as HQ
Painboss 80 points, 1 more wound for 5, and gets a 4+ armor save, gives up other weapons for 1 profile str7 AP-2 D2 weapon, same might do a mortal wound when healing


to compare:
The ork models do not have a gun or grenades but their CC is a whole lot scarier. Painboy 6+ armor sucks painboss has the 4+ sicne the painbody used to be part of a nobx squad as an option, and said nobz are a 4+ that was an odd choice. Painboy has an arguably worse weapons but also does not take an elite slot and can fill an hq requirement. Apothecary being able to be taken at no slot requirement is pretty good since their elites are a lot better than the orks elites for the most part. The fact that the painboy 1/6 of the time hurts the model is... dumb from a competitive standpoint, lore wise though its spot on (might be cool to have a narrative tabel of "doc upgrades" that are rolled for when healed in crusade). As for the rest I would prefer the restore 2 wounds to D3 wounds. That said it would be cool to add D3 single wound models back into play if the unit selected has only 1 wound models not counting the Nob.

As a final note in a comparison the Apothecary is much better at thier job, the Orks pay the points for harder hitting in melee but thats really not somethign they lack in any way so i would gladly trade some of that for better heals. points for points I think the Apothecary is a little better but not liek orders of magnitude better, just more synergy with the army.



Painboyz would be just as good, they inherently know how orks work, and orks are incredibly resilient. I believe it was the 3rd Ed dex that said that boyz parts could be sewn on to another ork with 99.99% of success without rejection. The painboy also doesn’t have better melee lol, cause you’re not throwin him in there.


its still said in modern books about painboys being abel to mix and match parts, just read about it in a caiphus cain book i was rereading (just did the whole series so not sure the title but the one on an ice world in a mining area where they discover necrons)

In the comparison as with all unit comparisons fluff should have very little to do with game balance. If a player is not throwing the painboy into combat that is the player choosing to ignore a lot of the game design of the unit. You can't say the power claw and urty syringe do not matter when the model has the option to use them and can put a hurting on something with it. now like a warboss or big mek you have to be careful what combat you put them in, but skirting a painboy into a combat on the edges when there is a large unti of boyz can add quite a few casualties per turn they are engaged or even make the difference against a strong unit like a dreadnaught. An apothecary simply cannot do this nearly as well as thier combat is a bit anemic comparatively.

Its also fine to argue you want painboys to be more like field medics than actual close combat models liek the current design, I might even agree that i would prefer that but game design wise I think painboyz/bosses are about on par with apothecaries for the points (painboyz being slightly worse) when looking at offensive and defensive capacity, hence the conclusion

"As a final note in a comparison the Apothecary is much better at thier job, the Orks pay the points for harder hitting in melee but that's really not something they lack in any way so i would gladly trade some of that for better heals. points for points I think the Apothecary is a little better but not like orders of magnitude better, just more synergy with the army"

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Having the melee is like putting a 3” heavy weapon on something; you’re never going to use it. Ever.
Apothecaries in space marines are just way better, not even through synergy. You just kinda brute force revive much better models, and prevent wounds from slipping off much more expensive things.
Oh yeah, in 9th the only real utility the painboy had was stripped away, you used to be able to do a small little ranged heal which could hit ghaz, but that’s not even a thing anymore. They’re not even good in green tide lists because the 6+ Fnp is alright against d1, but as soon as your enemy starts putting mid strength multi damage stuff into boyz they just melt and the painboy is worthless.
I also don’t get the whole durability being the same point?, marines can access a 5+ invuln easy, have just better saves, and much more durable meatshields. Orks are t5, but you don’t get too much on top of that.
You don’t even save too many boyz, cause a lot of your losses are due to morale now, not even shooting.

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I feel like maybe GW is trying to write the codex to encourage specific feels.

Like y'all are saying, boys only seem to work as a green tide. Maybe that's exactly what they're for.

I've been out of the loop for a while tho.

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 Blndmage wrote:
I feel like maybe GW is trying to write the codex to encourage specific feels.

Like y'all are saying, boys only seem to work as a green tide. Maybe that's exactly what they're for.

I've been out of the loop for a while tho.

Boyz just kinda don’t work, even green tide is better done as something like kommandos. Only skew list I really see working for orks is massed t8

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Unpopular take, but I think Boyz need some players to just keep running them and see what happens.

Because I agree with the logic that you can just snipe out a bunch of boyz in a few units and then they lose loads to morale. And I agree with all the problems outlined compared to where things were in 8th.

But... you look at some of the armies winning tournaments, and they really aren't bringing that much shooting. Admittedly they may just charge and massacre a blob of 30 boyz - but its a different narrative to the one usually described here. DE Coven lists for instance. Marine lists with bags of Vanguard Vets, melee Deathwatch etc. The days of walking into an Ad Mech bullet wall seem to be receding.

I mean its kind of masochistic - but the only way to test a skew in a meta is to keep running into the wall and see what is actually appearing against you on the table.
   
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Tyel wrote:
Unpopular take, but I think Boyz need some players to just keep running them and see what happens.

Because I agree with the logic that you can just snipe out a bunch of boyz in a few units and then they lose loads to morale. And I agree with all the problems outlined compared to where things were in 8th.

But... you look at some of the armies winning tournaments, and they really aren't bringing that much shooting. Admittedly they may just charge and massacre a blob of 30 boyz - but its a different narrative to the one usually described here. DE Coven lists for instance. Marine lists with bags of Vanguard Vets, melee Deathwatch etc. The days of walking into an Ad Mech bullet wall seem to be receding.

I mean its kind of masochistic - but the only way to test a skew in a meta is to keep running into the wall and see what is actually appearing against you on the table.


The issue isn’t necessarily that green tide can’t work, it’s just why not just do with kommandos, stormboyz, and trukk boyz. Maybe some deffkoptas too.

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Italy

Tyel wrote:
Unpopular take, but I think Boyz need some players to just keep running them and see what happens.

Because I agree with the logic that you can just snipe out a bunch of boyz in a few units and then they lose loads to morale. And I agree with all the problems outlined compared to where things were in 8th.

But... you look at some of the armies winning tournaments, and they really aren't bringing that much shooting. Admittedly they may just charge and massacre a blob of 30 boyz - but its a different narrative to the one usually described here. DE Coven lists for instance. Marine lists with bags of Vanguard Vets, melee Deathwatch etc. The days of walking into an Ad Mech bullet wall seem to be receding.

I mean its kind of masochistic - but the only way to test a skew in a meta is to keep running into the wall and see what is actually appearing against you on the table.


To accomplish what goal? Boyz don't have staying power nor significant shooting/melee ability. There's plenty of stuff in the ork codex that does the same job (whatever job you assign to those poor bastards) but better. The only real good reason to take boyz is the trukk boyz combo, which is already used. I use it as well.

It also depends on the meta, in my area it's much more common to face armies with plenty of tools to deal with infantries and light vehicles and not many proper anti tank, as the consensus about tanks is that they suck .

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/02 08:04:17


 
   
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Tyel wrote:
Unpopular take, but I think Boyz need some players to just keep running them and see what happens.

Because I agree with the logic that you can just snipe out a bunch of boyz in a few units and then they lose loads to morale. And I agree with all the problems outlined compared to where things were in 8th.

But... you look at some of the armies winning tournaments, and they really aren't bringing that much shooting. Admittedly they may just charge and massacre a blob of 30 boyz - but its a different narrative to the one usually described here. DE Coven lists for instance. Marine lists with bags of Vanguard Vets, melee Deathwatch etc. The days of walking into an Ad Mech bullet wall seem to be receding.

I mean its kind of masochistic - but the only way to test a skew in a meta is to keep running into the wall and see what is actually appearing against you on the table.


I'm fairly sure that almost every somewhat experienced ork player has tried to see what happens quite a few times. I'm fairly sure almost everyone has these models lying around.

Thing is, tide doesn't work well, it's too slow, does to little damage and is killed off too easily. The old codex had a bunch of tools to combat these issues and all of them, without exception, have been taken away.

The amount of shooting and melee current armies bring wouldn't be sufficient to handle a green tide backed by a reliable da jump, a 5++ KFF, endless green tide, advance and charge each turn, morale immunity and a Thrakka that can be healed. But all of that is gone, and the shooting of a somewhat TAC army is absolutely sufficient to wipe hordes of T5/6+/6++/6+++ hordes across the board that now have to get by with 120 points less than previous editions.

the_scotsman and me recently had a math brawl on how much staying power a horde of boyz has against 2x the DA combat patrol box. The result is that an army not optimized to take on boyz running a random bag of marine models worth 1k points could easily wipe out 1k points of boyz in two turns if all goes well, but latest in three turns.

Essentially, that oppinion is unpopular because both theory and practice have proven it wrong.

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