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Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

 alextroy wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
That's a massive discount of points, 7ppm for the basic boy is simply not gonna happen, let alone 6ppm or 5ppm ones. I like the concept of making boyz cheaper every 10 models, but they realistically should be designed around the 9-8-7 ppm costs. I'm also against free upgrades, make big shootas better instead, for example with a flat AP-1 at half or even full range.
If we all agree that Boyz are so overpriced at 9 points a model for 10 models, then making them cost less after the first 10 models doesn't really fix anything. The first 10-12 models need to be appropriately priced for Trukk Boyz.

As for free upgrades, I think every unit should be costed in a way that front loads basic upgrades and the squad leader into the base points of the unit. Only then will the rules both encourage larger units and units that look like 40K units are supposed to look. Nobody is going to shell out 5 points for a Big Shoota, but they just might take a free Big Shoota if they have already paid for it anyway. Such a fundamental change in unit Matched Play cost would change the math on MSU units, especially the one that come barebones. It's like a more nuanced form of Power Level.


I don't mind 9ppm boyz to be honest, in 2000 points games that's a very cheap cost for the basic troop. The fact that they currently don't worth 9ppm to me means that they should be improved, not that they need a points drop.

Cheap but useless outside spam is a bad concept, and I'd rather keep boyz as they are then having super cheap spammable boyz.

Same for big shootas, make them worthy of 5 points instead of being free but still a garbage option with no impact on the game. Free big shootas look ok on some vehicles but still bring massive dice rolling for close to no result, except maybe during the speedwaaagh. I prefer making them more expensive but with a dakka weapon with heavy bolter profile (native AP-1 and D2) for example. Less shots (for points) but more powerful.

 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

 Blackie wrote:
I don't mind 9ppm boyz to be honest, in 2000 points games that's a very cheap cost for the basic troop. The fact that they currently don't worth 9ppm to me means that they should be improved, not that they need a points drop.

Cheap but useless outside spam is a bad concept, and I'd rather keep boyz as they are then having super cheap spammable boyz.

Same for big shootas, make them worthy of 5 points instead of being free but still a garbage option with no impact on the game. Free big shootas look ok on some vehicles but still bring massive dice rolling for close to no result, except maybe during the speedwaaagh. I prefer making them more expensive but with a dakka weapon with heavy bolter profile (native AP-1 and D2) for example. Less shots (for points) but more powerful.
But I though the entire point of boyz was being a spammable unit? They have always been the toughest of the spammable units, but spammable none the less. That's their entire modus operandi in 40K fiction.
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought




 alextroy wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
I don't mind 9ppm boyz to be honest, in 2000 points games that's a very cheap cost for the basic troop. The fact that they currently don't worth 9ppm to me means that they should be improved, not that they need a points drop.

Cheap but useless outside spam is a bad concept, and I'd rather keep boyz as they are then having super cheap spammable boyz.

Same for big shootas, make them worthy of 5 points instead of being free but still a garbage option with no impact on the game. Free big shootas look ok on some vehicles but still bring massive dice rolling for close to no result, except maybe during the speedwaaagh. I prefer making them more expensive but with a dakka weapon with heavy bolter profile (native AP-1 and D2) for example. Less shots (for points) but more powerful.
But I though the entire point of boyz was being a spammable unit? They have always been the toughest of the spammable units, but spammable none the less. That's their entire modus operandi in 40K fiction.


What stops them being spammable at 9 points? 100 bodies is still less than half an army. Them not being worth spamming at 9 points is the issue, not the ability to do so.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 alextroy wrote:
But I though the entire point of boyz was being a spammable unit? They have always been the toughest of the spammable units, but spammable none the less. That's their entire modus operandi in 40K fiction.


Not really. The ork hordes in the lore aren't just boyz, they are all kinds of orks. It's worth noting that most orks refer to all other orks as "boyz" unless they are bigger than them.
It's also highly problematic for the game itself to allow them to be spammed to that extend.

At least in 5th boyz used to be a unit that was able to outfight most rank and file units from other armies and shoot just as well as them, even if you didn't spam them. Top competitive lists could run as little as 40 (18 in a bw+12 in a trukk) and still get value from them, and even horde lists like the kan wall would just bring 80-100.

The super-boring armies that just flooded the board with as many boyz as possible only rose to popularity with 7th edition's codex which pretty nerfed every other competitive playstyle into the ground. Same thing happened again during the index era and later during 8th edition's codex. Each time all other playstyle sucked, orks would default to spamming the only good unit in the codex as often as possible.

Orks being spammable is just a symptom of the current ork codex being horrible, not an intentional design decision. It's just that orks have had horrible codices for a loooong time which makes people mistake it for an army identity.

In other words, we don't need or want the ability to field a boring skew army back, we need boyz to actually be worth their points and not dead weight, even if you just bring 30.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Mutilatin' Mad Dok




Sedona, Arizona

Dudeface wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
I don't mind 9ppm boyz to be honest, in 2000 points games that's a very cheap cost for the basic troop. The fact that they currently don't worth 9ppm to me means that they should be improved, not that they need a points drop.

Cheap but useless outside spam is a bad concept, and I'd rather keep boyz as they are then having super cheap spammable boyz.

Same for big shootas, make them worthy of 5 points instead of being free but still a garbage option with no impact on the game. Free big shootas look ok on some vehicles but still bring massive dice rolling for close to no result, except maybe during the speedwaaagh. I prefer making them more expensive but with a dakka weapon with heavy bolter profile (native AP-1 and D2) for example. Less shots (for points) but more powerful.
But I though the entire point of boyz was being a spammable unit? They have always been the toughest of the spammable units, but spammable none the less. That's their entire modus operandi in 40K fiction.


What stops them being spammable at 9 points? 100 bodies is still less than half an army. Them not being worth spamming at 9 points is the issue, not the ability to do so.


The sheer volume of available firepower and kill potential stops them from being spammable at 9 points.

In order to earn their price tag, from a durability stand point, Boyz would need to have heavy moral mitigation (something similar to ATSKNF in that only one of them can run away, or straight fearless above 10 models in the unit), and 1-2 more durability increases; an extra wound, an armor save that matters (4+), a minor FNP (6+), something.

I know that sounds like a lot, but think about this: Boys were 6 PPM, and (effectively) fearless until they hit 10-or-less models in a unit, back when armies had maybe a third of their current firepower and overall killiness. Current boys have received a 3 point price bump, and the thorough nerfing of every single protective measure they had, in exchange for +1 toughness and a fairly minor damage boost (which doesn't make up for the nerfs to how many models can actually fight in combat). They have, in very real terms, become less durable and less dangerous and 50% more expensive.

It's really not hard to mow-down 100 boys - damn near half your total points - in the current game. A couple of measures can be taken to make those boys slightly more durable, but they're so bad that they don't often don't pay for themselves in terms of boys saved.

 welshhoppo wrote:

I like my Orks how I like my Emperor, dead.
 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

 alextroy wrote:

But I though the entire point of boyz was being a spammable unit? They have always been the toughest of the spammable units, but spammable none the less. That's their entire modus operandi in 40K fiction.


Well, 9ppm models in 2000 points games are the book definition of a spammable unit IMHO . If they're good they'd be spammed, they don't need to be cheaper to be taken in large numbers considering how massive the standard size of a 40k game is. Unless you mean 200+ boyz for a proper horde, then we disagree on the horde concept.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/06 07:50:49


 
   
Made in us
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





The whole point of boyz was to be a horde unit that could do things by itself besides tarpitting, but in 8th the scale shift kinda hurt that. Moving on to 9th the ap helped them, but they lost a lot of charge reliability, peppering things with deffskullz rokkits, morale, reliable deepstrike, and perma advance and charge. They kinda went from a cheap unit that could tarpit, but was better at doing other things, to an expensive unit that can only tarpit.
They have to reduce the price and buff them.

"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

 Blackie wrote:
 alextroy wrote:

But I though the entire point of boyz was being a spammable unit? They have always been the toughest of the spammable units, but spammable none the less. That's their entire modus operandi in 40K fiction.


Well, 9ppm models in 2000 points games are the book definition of a spammable unit IMHO . If they're good they'd be spammed, they don't need to be cheaper to be taken in large numbers considering how massive the standard size of a 40k game is. Unless you mean 200+ boyz for a proper horde, then we disagree on the horde concept.
I'm pretty sure that 9ppm is far from spam territory. Not when there are plenty of models available in the 5 to 7 point range in some armies. Ork Boyz are too expensive to spam given how little you get back for the investment.
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

Yes, they are currently too expensive for what they do. I argued that 9ppm isn't expensive and pretty spammable IF the unit were good.

90 boyz are 810-840 points depending on the nobz' weapons. That's not even half budget of a standard list.

If adepta sororitas can field 100+ models hordes, at 9+ ppm, orks can easily bring 180 these days (1620-1680 points). They don't want to do it because boyz are trash, but they are already cheap enough to go full horde style. You don't see gretchins spam for the same reason, they're cheap enough to be spammed but they're trash and won't work.

I definitely prefer an effective horde of 80-100 models than a crappy one of 150-180 dudes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/07 07:57:01


 
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought




 alextroy wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
 alextroy wrote:

But I though the entire point of boyz was being a spammable unit? They have always been the toughest of the spammable units, but spammable none the less. That's their entire modus operandi in 40K fiction.


Well, 9ppm models in 2000 points games are the book definition of a spammable unit IMHO . If they're good they'd be spammed, they don't need to be cheaper to be taken in large numbers considering how massive the standard size of a 40k game is. Unless you mean 200+ boyz for a proper horde, then we disagree on the horde concept.
I'm pretty sure that 9ppm is far from spam territory. Not when there are plenty of models available in the 5 to 7 point range in some armies. Ork Boyz are too expensive to spam given how little you get back for the investment.


I think you're confusing spam with "take 200 of them". Spamming simply means to take as many as means allow, would you rather have orks be worth 9 points and field 100-150 of them or have guardsmen stats and field 200+?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Dudeface wrote:

Again though morale being a damage "double dip" is the issue. The point of the morale process is to punish units suffering heavy losses, orks are fluff wise only fearless or whatever rather fluff equivalent is, when they're in large numbers. Them running or performing worse after taking losses makes sense.

Marines in a 5 man unit should also be subject to morale, but it should just be harder to apply to them, in part from unit size and also due to higher leadership.

I'm not all for nids ignoring it either, it should have a different impact on them, maybe alter how well they respond to the synaptic commands or their ability to swarm etc. But they're up there with daemons for those most likely to ignore psychological impact of losses.


The problem as we have it right now in 9th is that almost every other faction in the game does not give a flying fig about Morale, where as with orkz, its such a massive known issue that we build our entire lists around the concept of MSU to minimize morale effects because to not do so is almost to auto-lose.

Space Marines are Functionally Immune to morale.
Grey Knights are Functionally Immune to morale.
Custodes are Functionally Immune to morale.
Necrons are Functionally Immune to morale.
Nidz are Functionally Immune to morale.
Imperial Guard are Functionally Immune to morale. (Their infantry squads can fail morale but they are forced to go MSU anyway)

The list goes on. The only main factions that has to care about morale right now in 9th is Orkz.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought




SemperMortis wrote:
Dudeface wrote:

Again though morale being a damage "double dip" is the issue. The point of the morale process is to punish units suffering heavy losses, orks are fluff wise only fearless or whatever rather fluff equivalent is, when they're in large numbers. Them running or performing worse after taking losses makes sense.

Marines in a 5 man unit should also be subject to morale, but it should just be harder to apply to them, in part from unit size and also due to higher leadership.

I'm not all for nids ignoring it either, it should have a different impact on them, maybe alter how well they respond to the synaptic commands or their ability to swarm etc. But they're up there with daemons for those most likely to ignore psychological impact of losses.


The problem as we have it right now in 9th is that almost every other faction in the game does not give a flying fig about Morale, where as with orkz, its such a massive known issue that we build our entire lists around the concept of MSU to minimize morale effects because to not do so is almost to auto-lose.

Space Marines are Functionally Immune to morale.
Grey Knights are Functionally Immune to morale.
Custodes are Functionally Immune to morale.
Necrons are Functionally Immune to morale.
Nidz are Functionally Immune to morale.
Imperial Guard are Functionally Immune to morale. (Their infantry squads can fail morale but they are forced to go MSU anyway)

The list goes on. The only main factions that has to care about morale right now in 9th is Orkz.


Marines seem that way because they're not in big enough unit sizes for it to kick in. Drop 6 marines of 10 and the remaining unit has reasonable odds to lose a model or two.
Grey knights are the same more or less although I don't know much of their 9th ed books admittedly.
Custodes don't come in large enough units to be impacted.
Necrons are not functionally immune, morale will really hurt warrior blobs (which aren't seen any more conveniently)
Nidz are an 8th ed book and use an outdated design paradigm
IG are an 8th ed book and use an outdated design paradigm

You missed the biggest culprit imo: Sisters, they can take 20 power armour bodies and auto pass the checks using miracle dice which should overwise really hurt them

Again all you've done is highlight the following issues:
- 8th ed books are showing their age
- the current morale system is skewed to a horde control mechanic
- this isn't a specific ork issue
- 9th rewards MSU for all armies

Edit - the summary of this thread is make boyz immune to current core mechanics designed to control hordes in order to make hordes viable. It's pointless rehashing this, either the morale system as-is needs to go or ork boyz need tweaking to make the risk acceptable. Odds are it won't be resolved this edition and once the other 3 big horde factions get books I'm sure they won't be alone, but it's not going to be resolved easily either. Personally I expected a goffs supplement which would conveniently sort ork infantry out with a slew of subfaction buff/strats but blood axes got that for whatever reason.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/07 13:58:36


 
   
Made in us
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





Only way boyz would be good is if they got back their whole complement of buffs.

"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Dudeface wrote:

Marines seem that way because they're not in big enough unit sizes for it to kick in. Drop 6 marines of 10 and the remaining unit has reasonable odds to lose a model or two.
Grey knights are the same more or less although I don't know much of their 9th ed books admittedly.
Custodes don't come in large enough units to be impacted.
Necrons are not functionally immune, morale will really hurt warrior blobs (which aren't seen any more conveniently)
Nidz are an 8th ed book and use an outdated design paradigm
IG are an 8th ed book and use an outdated design paradigm

You missed the biggest culprit imo: Sisters, they can take 20 power armour bodies and auto pass the checks using miracle dice which should overwise really hurt them

Again all you've done is highlight the following issues:
- 8th ed books are showing their age
- the current morale system is skewed to a horde control mechanic
- this isn't a specific ork issue
- 9th rewards MSU for all armies

Edit - the summary of this thread is make boyz immune to current core mechanics designed to control hordes in order to make hordes viable. It's pointless rehashing this, either the morale system as-is needs to go or ork boyz need tweaking to make the risk acceptable. Odds are it won't be resolved this edition and once the other 3 big horde factions get books I'm sure they won't be alone, but it's not going to be resolved easily either. Personally I expected a goffs supplement which would conveniently sort ork infantry out with a slew of subfaction buff/strats but blood axes got that for whatever reason.


Except Marine players haven't been taking full squads of 10 in years if not longer. There is no benefit to taking a blob of 10 when they allow you to combat squad into squads of 5 anyway. So besides a few outliers, Marines do not care about Morale.

That is basically the argument for most of the armies in the game right now. We know for a fact Custodes are going to LD11 because why not. And unless they really screw up, Nidz will still be immune to morale. So, for a faction which has morale problems, there is no reason to not take MSU. With how many nerfs they piled onto ork troops I thought they could at least keep their old Mob Rule

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in de
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle




I don't think Nids will be immune to morale. So far every morale immunity has been translated to "ignores modifiers to attrition" and I think the same will apply to Nids in range of synapse.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/07 18:04:40


 
   
Made in us
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





I really hope that nids and guard don’t lose their morale stuff, I really want one of the proper hordes to succeed at a horde list.

"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I don't think Nids will be immune to morale. So far every morale immunity has been translated to "ignores modifiers to attrition" and I think the same will apply to Nids in range of synapse.


Except again for the factions which never cared about morale in the first place, IE Power armor armies. I do really like Custodes getting LD11, just as a little last "Feth you orkz" note by the creators that they thought about morale and just want it to impact the NPC races .

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought




SemperMortis wrote:
Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I don't think Nids will be immune to morale. So far every morale immunity has been translated to "ignores modifiers to attrition" and I think the same will apply to Nids in range of synapse.


Except again for the factions which never cared about morale in the first place, IE Power armor armies. I do really like Custodes getting LD11, just as a little last "Feth you orkz" note by the creators that they thought about morale and just want it to impact the NPC races .


Honestly I think you need to accept that orks are not the bravest warriors in the cosmos and that as a horde unit they should be vulnerable to mechanics designed to control hordes. Oddly in 3 andn5 man units, marines tend to not notice these kicking in. Again direct your angst at the fact the morale mechanics are unrefined and not... thematic I guess? Rather than just moaning about orks being npcs.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Dudeface wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I don't think Nids will be immune to morale. So far every morale immunity has been translated to "ignores modifiers to attrition" and I think the same will apply to Nids in range of synapse.


Except again for the factions which never cared about morale in the first place, IE Power armor armies. I do really like Custodes getting LD11, just as a little last "Feth you orkz" note by the creators that they thought about morale and just want it to impact the NPC races .


Honestly I think you need to accept that orks are not the bravest warriors in the cosmos and that as a horde unit they should be vulnerable to mechanics designed to control hordes. Oddly in 3 andn5 man units, marines tend to not notice these kicking in. Again direct your angst at the fact the morale mechanics are unrefined and not... thematic I guess? Rather than just moaning about orks being npcs.


If we are going to get into fluff as rationale for a game wide rule only targeting reliably 1 faction and no others....you are going to have a bad time also, and which has previously been covered, Morale doesn't necessarily represent merely running away, it could be tactical retreats, it could be models lost to take care of the wounded, (Battlefield math, it takes 2 men to take care of 1 wounded) it could be a host of other things. The problem I have with it is that its only impactful against 1 faction atm. To put the ire into perspective, imagine if GW came out with a new mechanic which said ALL models have to be within 2' of 2 other models at all times or they are destroyed. Suddenly fielding 5 man Elite squads means you lose the last 2 models when the other 3 are killed. Losing 40% of your unit due to a poorly implemented rule would be a bit of a buzz kill wouldn't it? Well, that is currently how Horde units are currently designed...except its closer to 45%.

You are correct in a way though. GW is trying to use Morale to "control" ork horde units, but in their wonderfully hamfisted style they over did it by a factor of about 10. They stripped all useful stratagems from Horde units, they stripped most character support, they stripped a special rule which incentivized max unit size they buffed Blast weapons to target hordes more reliably and finally they changed Mob rule for Orkz so that it doesn't really benefit them at all which leaves them fully exposed to morale. There is a reason why in 8th you saw 120+ model hordes and now in 9th you see the competitive lists not even taking 10 troop models. GW has massively over corrected and instead of making hordes slightly less competitive they have utterly destroyed them. Unfortunately for a lot of Ork units, that nerf also impacts them as well which is a problem GW needs to address OR as mentioned, implement the poorly written rule fairly across the factions. IF orkz have to suffer from morale, so should every other faction in proportion not to the fluff, but to their average army size at 2k points. So if morale kills 45% of Ork horde units, then it should kill 20%(ish) of elite units, as opposed to what it currently is which is it never matters.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in eu
Smokin' Skorcha Driver





United Kingdom

Had a thought while discussing things in the Ork tactics thread:

What if the 1:4 spanner:burna/loota system were ported over to boys mobs, but in a 1:9 ratio?

So a mob of 30 boys would in fact be 27 boys and 3 nobs.

This obviously doesn't resolve the morale issues being discussed, but it would give boys mobs a bit more bite to justify the points cost per model. Suddenly a mob has 3 Power Klaws or whatever you choose to arm them with and thus hits harder in CC, and is more likely to be of use when they reach the enemy.

So 3 mobs of 10 and a single mob of 30 have the same amount of nobs, but with the latter you get more punching power out of your total number of troops slots.

Obviously you're adding points to the unit to pay for the Big Choppas/Klaws/whatever, but I would say the cost of 3 Big Choppas or Klaws is leaps and bounds more justifiable than the equivalent cost of Big Shootas or Rokkits.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/09 04:28:20


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

[/spoiler]
SemperMortis wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I don't think Nids will be immune to morale. So far every morale immunity has been translated to "ignores modifiers to attrition" and I think the same will apply to Nids in range of synapse.


Except again for the factions which never cared about morale in the first place, IE Power armor armies. I do really like Custodes getting LD11, just as a little last "Feth you orkz" note by the creators that they thought about morale and just want it to impact the NPC races .


Honestly I think you need to accept that orks are not the bravest warriors in the cosmos and that as a horde unit they should be vulnerable to mechanics designed to control hordes. Oddly in 3 andn5 man units, marines tend to not notice these kicking in. Again direct your angst at the fact the morale mechanics are unrefined and not... thematic I guess? Rather than just moaning about orks being npcs.


If we are going to get into fluff as rationale for a game wide rule only targeting reliably 1 faction and no others....you are going to have a bad time also, and which has previously been covered, Morale doesn't necessarily represent merely running away, it could be tactical retreats, it could be models lost to take care of the wounded, (Battlefield math, it takes 2 men to take care of 1 wounded) it could be a host of other things. The problem I have with it is that its only impactful against 1 faction atm. To put the ire into perspective, imagine if GW came out with a new mechanic which said ALL models have to be within 2' of 2 other models at all times or they are destroyed. Suddenly fielding 5 man Elite squads means you lose the last 2 models when the other 3 are killed. Losing 40% of your unit due to a poorly implemented rule would be a bit of a buzz kill wouldn't it? Well, that is currently how Horde units are currently designed...except its closer to 45%.

You are correct in a way though. GW is trying to use Morale to "control" ork horde units, but in their wonderfully hamfisted style they over did it by a factor of about 10. They stripped all useful stratagems from Horde units, they stripped most character support, they stripped a special rule which incentivized max unit size they buffed Blast weapons to target hordes more reliably and finally they changed Mob rule for Orkz so that it doesn't really benefit them at all which leaves them fully exposed to morale. There is a reason why in 8th you saw 120+ model hordes and now in 9th you see the competitive lists not even taking 10 troop models. GW has massively over corrected and instead of making hordes slightly less competitive they have utterly destroyed them. Unfortunately for a lot of Ork units, that nerf also impacts them as well which is a problem GW needs to address OR as mentioned, implement the poorly written rule fairly across the factions. IF orkz have to suffer from morale, so should every other faction in proportion not to the fluff, but to their average army size at 2k points. So if morale kills 45% of Ork horde units, then it should kill 20%(ish) of elite units, as opposed to what it currently is which is it never matters.
[spoiler]

What if there was a two-part kunnin plan in place?
1) Ruin all your ork boy hordes, knowing people will dump their now "useless" units, with the intent to sell you the "better" kommandos etc.
2) next edition, improve the green tide again & re-sell you new boxes of Boyz.
Wash/rinse/repeat edition after edition....
What if??
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought




SemperMortis wrote:
Spoiler:
Dudeface wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I don't think Nids will be immune to morale. So far every morale immunity has been translated to "ignores modifiers to attrition" and I think the same will apply to Nids in range of synapse.


Except again for the factions which never cared about morale in the first place, IE Power armor armies. I do really like Custodes getting LD11, just as a little last "Feth you orkz" note by the creators that they thought about morale and just want it to impact the NPC races .


Honestly I think you need to accept that orks are not the bravest warriors in the cosmos and that as a horde unit they should be vulnerable to mechanics designed to control hordes. Oddly in 3 andn5 man units, marines tend to not notice these kicking in. Again direct your angst at the fact the morale mechanics are unrefined and not... thematic I guess? Rather than just moaning about orks being npcs.


If we are going to get into fluff as rationale for a game wide rule only targeting reliably 1 faction and no others....you are going to have a bad time also, and which has previously been covered, Morale doesn't necessarily represent merely running away, it could be tactical retreats, it could be models lost to take care of the wounded, (Battlefield math, it takes 2 men to take care of 1 wounded) it could be a host of other things. The problem I have with it is that its only impactful against 1 faction atm. To put the ire into perspective, imagine if GW came out with a new mechanic which said ALL models have to be within 2' of 2 other models at all times or they are destroyed. Suddenly fielding 5 man Elite squads means you lose the last 2 models when the other 3 are killed. Losing 40% of your unit due to a poorly implemented rule would be a bit of a buzz kill wouldn't it? Well, that is currently how Horde units are currently designed...except its closer to 45%.

You are correct in a way though. GW is trying to use Morale to "control" ork horde units, but in their wonderfully hamfisted style they over did it by a factor of about 10. They stripped all useful stratagems from Horde units, they stripped most character support, they stripped a special rule which incentivized max unit size they buffed Blast weapons to target hordes more reliably and finally they changed Mob rule for Orkz so that it doesn't really benefit them at all which leaves them fully exposed to morale. There is a reason why in 8th you saw 120+ model hordes and now in 9th you see the competitive lists not even taking 10 troop models. GW has massively over corrected and instead of making hordes slightly less competitive they have utterly destroyed them. Unfortunately for a lot of Ork units, that nerf also impacts them as well which is a problem GW needs to address OR as mentioned, implement the poorly written rule fairly across the factions. IF orkz have to suffer from morale, so should every other faction in proportion not to the fluff, but to their average army size at 2k points. So if morale kills 45% of Ork horde units, then it should kill 20%(ish) of elite units, as opposed to what it currently is which is it never matters.


But they are, they just work around it by going msu so you basically kill the unit outright rather than reducing for morale. Boyz can come in 10s don't forget which largely negates morale losses if that was the main problem (when I think it's just a factor).

But as I said before, give it 12 months and week see if chaos marines, guard, daemons and nidz all start up threads when they get the same.
   
Made in de
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ccs wrote:
What if there was a two-part kunnin plan in place?
1) Ruin all your ork boy hordes, knowing people will dump their now "useless" units, with the intent to sell you the "better" kommandos etc.
2) next edition, improve the green tide again & re-sell you new boxes of Boyz.
Wash/rinse/repeat edition after edition....
What if??


Ruining everything that has been competitive for at least the following two editions has been a major theme for every ork codex. Nob bikers, lootas and kanz still haven't recovered from being competitive in 5th.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/09 07:47:40


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Orks are not a melee army
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Lootas had their short mob up time in the sun. Anyway I don’t think GW will throw us any bone soon, but if one was thrown, I would rather it be to stuff that was never ever good, like flash git’s and nauts rather than boyz

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 addnid wrote:
Lootas had their short mob up time in the sun. Anyway I don’t think GW will throw us any bone soon, but if one was thrown, I would rather it be to stuff that was never ever good, like flash git’s and nauts rather than boyz


It's quite telling about the quality of lootas that you had to more than tripple their output in order to make them competitive

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Stand up for science!
 
   
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Dudeface wrote:


But they are, they just work around it by going msu so you basically kill the unit outright rather than reducing for morale. Boyz can come in 10s don't forget which largely negates morale losses if that was the main problem (when I think it's just a factor).

But as I said before, give it 12 months and week see if chaos marines, guard, daemons and nidz all start up threads when they get the same.


As mentioned already in the thread, Boys MAIN problem is Morale.

You can break Boyz into 3 competitive playstyles.
1: Horde
2: Trukk Boyz
3: Deep strikers

For ork boyz to be competitive they need to be good at those 3 things, either all of them, some of them or at the very least 1 of them. At the moment, they aren't good at any of them.

For Horde to work, Morale more then anything else needs to be fixed. You can negate their lack of speed by sheer numbers. It wouldn't be a 1 thing fixes everything but it would definitely help. You would also need to give them character support so that they have bubble areas they can benefit from things. Painboy giving more than a 6+ would be nice, a KFF going back to 5++ would be even better.

For Trukkboyz to be good you need to again address Morale AND you need to incentivize trukkboyz. At the moment they are only competitive in the 1 per detachment specialist mob and that isn't enough to make them competitive. 3 units of boyz spread over 3 separate detachments isn't a good playstyle for trukkboyz.

For deep strikers to be competitive you again need to fix morale AND you need to make assault from deepstrike reliable. At the moment GW nerfed that style by taking away +1 to charge from Evil sunz and by nerfing Weirdboyz making them both more expensive and less reliable.

As far as your other comment about waiting for the next few codex's...well that really is moving the goal posts since we've had both codex's released before Orkz and AFTER orkz all of which didn't give a flying fig about Morale. So saying "Well....maybe the next ones will have similar problems" isn't really helpful nor is it likely to be true.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
Had a thought while discussing things in the Ork tactics thread:
What if the 1:4 spanner:burna/loota system were ported over to boys mobs, but in a 1:9 ratio?
So a mob of 30 boys would in fact be 27 boys and 3 nobs.
This obviously doesn't resolve the morale issues being discussed, but it would give boys mobs a bit more bite to justify the points cost per model. Suddenly a mob has 3 Power Klaws or whatever you choose to arm them with and thus hits harder in CC, and is more likely to be of use when they reach the enemy.
So 3 mobs of 10 and a single mob of 30 have the same amount of nobs, but with the latter you get more punching power out of your total number of troops slots.
Obviously you're adding points to the unit to pay for the Big Choppas/Klaws/whatever, but I would say the cost of 3 Big Choppas or Klaws is leaps and bounds more justifiable than the equivalent cost of Big Shootas or Rokkits.


It wouldn't help in the slightest honestly. You are still going to lose close to 50% of your mob to morale/attrition before it gets into CC and honestly the most efficient build for a Nob is double choppas rather then 30pts for PKs or 15pts for Big choppas since most of the time that extra pip of dmg is ignored by the plethora of -1dmg rules floating around. I would rather have a nob with 5 attacks base then a nob with 3 PK attacks.

 Jidmah wrote:
 addnid wrote:
Lootas had their short mob up time in the sun. Anyway I don’t think GW will throw us any bone soon, but if one was thrown, I would rather it be to stuff that was never ever good, like flash git’s and nauts rather than boyz

It's quite telling about the quality of lootas that you had to more than tripple their output in order to make them competitive


The trick was to Mob Up a 15 and a 10 man loota squad (1CP), Give them exploding 5s (2CP) have them shoot twice (3CP) and then if shot at in return use Grot shields to protect them (1CP and 30-60 grots) And what you got was 25 lootas which averaged 47(ish) hits a turn with what amounts to a Autocannon. You could roll a bit hotter and get 3 shots which gave you a roughly 50% increase in hits but you were just as likely to roll a 1, so you likely saved another CP for a CP Re-roll.

if you did NONE of the above you ended up with 25 lootas generating a grand total of....16.6 hits So its rather telling that the only time lootas were competitive (Barely) was when you sunk 6CP a turn into them (Sometimes 7-8) and as you mentioned you had to TRIPLE their output for them to become useful. And This so annoyed the competitive armies that they complained in such droves that within that edition GW nerfed them so that at best you could only take 15 lootas to do this trick which cut their dmg potential in half.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
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SemperMortis wrote:

It wouldn't help in the slightest honestly. You are still going to lose close to 50% of your mob to morale/attrition before it gets into CC and honestly the most efficient build for a Nob is double choppas rather then 30pts for PKs or 15pts for Big choppas since most of the time that extra pip of dmg is ignored by the plethora of -1dmg rules floating around. I would rather have a nob with 5 attacks base then a nob with 3 PK attacks.


That's a fair enough assessment. I'm still trying to spitball a way of justifying the 9ppm cost (other than fixing their morale, which needs to happen regardless of anything else changing) rather than just saying "make boys cheaper".

Still, I wouldn't say no to replacing 6 S4 attacks with 10 S5 attacks for free. It's not a lot but it would add up.
   
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There’s no point in justifying the 9 ppm thing because orks aren’t really meant to be that way. Orks are one of those weird things where your quality comes from quantity… but also quality in some part. A drop to 7 (cause we lost kff and reliable deepstrike/charge) would be great.

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I'm pretty sure the core of Orks is quantity and volatile quality, which pair nicely together since power units end up being either ridiculously cost-effective or totally useless and are numerous enough to average it all out.
...or at least, that's how I understand it.
Orks are weird, who knew?

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 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
There’s no point in justifying the 9 ppm thing because orks aren’t really meant to be that way. Orks are one of those weird things where your quality comes from quantity… but also quality in some part. A drop to 7 (cause we lost kff and reliable deepstrike/charge) would be great.


Points costs have all changed. Gretchins used to be 3, trukks 30, etc... and that's true for other armies as well. Infantries and vehicles for marines were all much cheaper. 9ppm boyz simply reflect 9th edition general points costs. At 9ppm it's very possible to spam lots of boyz, 100 boyz don't even cost half budget of a standard game. We already have quantity, compare a footslogging ork list to a SM one: we field 3x bodies or even more, just like in the past.

Take buggies and mek gunz, they used to be 40ish and 30ish points, then GW re-shaped them into more powerful (and expensive) units. Now they are finally both good. Why shouldn't boyz be the same? More expensive than they used to be but much more reliable, having better stats/rules/synergies. I'd certainly prefer going this way: making them better rather than making them cheaper. In 3rd edition choppa boyz (troop) and trukk boyz (fast attack) were 9ppm and both very good and spammable.

Considering how crowded 9th edition tables already are 7ppm boyz could make sense only if standard games were lowered to 1500 points. And then lots of stuff should also need to get massive points drops, starting with gretchins. But at that point, even with a lower standard game size, we'll go back to hordes of super cheap stuff, exactly the kind of thing GW doesn't want anymore (thankfully!).

I don't think it's realistic, or even fair, to make units like boyz really cheap considering the current state of 40k.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/10 08:23:13


 
   
 
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