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 endlesswaltz123 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
The more counters there are to invuln saves in the game, the happier I am.

They are definitely over used at the moment, so having to worry a little more when you put invul saves in your lists can't be a bad thing.

Also, for all we know, this thing could cost 220 points.

The problem is armies that have Inv saves baked into their point cost, so it is not an option.

Over proliferation of Inv saves is an issue, it will always be an issue, but the solution is to remove them from models and adjust the point costs, not to start making it easy to spam ignore inv.

I don't see this issue.
This weapon doesn't ignore invul saves.
This weapon ignores saves. Period.

Saying that it is unfair because you pay for invul saves, is the same as saying as this weapon is unfair because you pay for a 1+ and this things ignores it.

It's the same as saying that this weapon inflicts mortal wounds, like many other weapons do. It's nothing new.

 Kanluwen wrote:
It's also been trash the entire time it's been in the Codex proper rather than FW.

FW ones were gak too. Hasn't been good since 3rd - 5th edition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pottsey wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
It's 1 shot weapon on a large T7 13 Wounds 3+ save model that easily gets bracketed and becomes worse at hitting and costs nearly 200pts. It still needs to hit, and still needs to wound. They can get three of them in a Tau army. No one has a hard time killing T7 3+ save vehicles, they are going to shoot once and then die on average. On the off chance they live they will likely be bracketed to BS 5+ and die shortly thereafter.

If a Tau army wants to build around these Railguns they can take 10 shots a turn, not limited to 3 shots a turn. More if we include Broadsides which one would assume would be weaker but still deadly. 22+ Railgun shots should be doable if we count 6 per Broadsides squad with an expected 3 Broadsides able to upgrade to Magna Rail Rifles.

I'm waiting to see things like the Tiger Shark. It has to be better than the Hammerhead one, and it has 2 of them.

 Aenar wrote:

Pottsey wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
It's 1 shot weapon on a large T7 13 Wounds 3+ save model that easily gets bracketed and becomes worse at hitting and costs nearly 200pts. It still needs to hit, and still needs to wound. They can get three of them in a Tau army. No one has a hard time killing T7 3+ save vehicles, they are going to shoot once and then die on average. On the off chance they live they will likely be bracketed to BS 5+ and die shortly thereafter.

If a Tau army wants to build around these Railguns they can take 10 shots a turn, not limited to 3 shots a turn. More if we include Broadsides which one would assume would be weaker but still deadly. 22+ Railgun shots should be doable if we count 6 per Broadsides squad with an expected 3 Broadsides able to upgrade to Magna Rail Rifles.

Hammerheads don't come in squadrons, it's 0-1 unit size. So max 3 Hammerhads + 1 Longstrike in a list. And currently it's a 725 points investment for 4 T7 W13 3+ models.

So it is fine that a model with that Return exists so that it May insta bracket the supposedly most durable daemonengine to the last and outright removes the 2 Dino bots? Which btw are all only minimally cheaper?!

Yeah that is absolutely magnificently healthy.

 Aenar wrote:

Pottsey wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
It's 1 shot weapon on a large T7 13 Wounds 3+ save model that easily gets bracketed and becomes worse at hitting and costs nearly 200pts. It still needs to hit, and still needs to wound. They can get three of them in a Tau army. No one has a hard time killing T7 3+ save vehicles, they are going to shoot once and then die on average. On the off chance they live they will likely be bracketed to BS 5+ and die shortly thereafter.

If a Tau army wants to build around these Railguns they can take 10 shots a turn, not limited to 3 shots a turn. More if we include Broadsides which one would assume would be weaker but still deadly. 22+ Railgun shots should be doable if we count 6 per Broadsides squad with an expected 3 Broadsides able to upgrade to Magna Rail Rifles.

Hammerheads don't come in squadrons, it's 0-1 unit size. So max 3 Hammerhads + 1 Longstrike in a list. And currently it's a 725 points investment for 4 T7 W13 3+ models.

These Railguns are not only found on Hammerheads. There is a high capacitance railgun that takes 2 shots for 1 Hammerhead and Gunrigs are cheaper then Hammerheads (Currently) and have 2 railguns each. That's an extra 7 shots.

Pottsey wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
It's 1 shot weapon on a large T7 13 Wounds 3+ save model that easily gets bracketed and becomes worse at hitting and costs nearly 200pts. It still needs to hit, and still needs to wound. They can get three of them in a Tau army. No one has a hard time killing T7 3+ save vehicles, they are going to shoot once and then die on average. On the off chance they live they will likely be bracketed to BS 5+ and die shortly thereafter.

If a Tau army wants to build around these Railguns they can take 10 shots a turn, not limited to 3 shots a turn. More if we include Broadsides which one would assume would be weaker but still deadly. 22+ Railgun shots should be doable if we count 6 per Broadsides squad with an expected 3 Broadsides able to upgrade to Magna Rail Rifles.

What other sources they have for hammerhead rail weapon than hammerhead in the GW codex(so not FW)? Note the broadside rail weapons are different weapons. You can't count them as these as stats will be different and we don't know yet. Odds are though as before it's the weaker version.

tneva82 wrote:

Pottsey wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
It's 1 shot weapon on a large T7 13 Wounds 3+ save model that easily gets bracketed and becomes worse at hitting and costs nearly 200pts. It still needs to hit, and still needs to wound. They can get three of them in a Tau army. No one has a hard time killing T7 3+ save vehicles, they are going to shoot once and then die on average. On the off chance they live they will likely be bracketed to BS 5+ and die shortly thereafter.

If a Tau army wants to build around these Railguns they can take 10 shots a turn, not limited to 3 shots a turn. More if we include Broadsides which one would assume would be weaker but still deadly. 22+ Railgun shots should be doable if we count 6 per Broadsides squad with an expected 3 Broadsides able to upgrade to Magna Rail Rifles.

What other sources they have for hammerhead rail weapon than hammerhead in the GW codex(so not FW)? Note the broadside rail weapons are different weapons. You can't count them as these as stats will be different and we don't know yet. Odds are though as before it's the weaker version.

Tidewall Gunrigs are in the codex and have effectively the same rail weapon as the hammerhead only 2 shots each and possibly 3 shots with Kauyon. They might be one to watch out for with Markerlight support. I would be temped to outflank it with Breachers inside.

Gunrigs hit on a 5+ though. And the extra shots with Kauyon are not only turn 3 onwards but within 12" as well.

Yeah gunrigs are a non-issue because of their BS, even weaker defensive profile and unlike the drone-port the unit inside the rig can't shoot the railguns with their BS.

Spoletta wrote:

I don't see this issue.
This weapon doesn't ignore invul saves.
This weapon ignores saves. Period.

Saying that it is unfair because you pay for invul saves, is the same as saying as this weapon is unfair because you pay for a 1+ and this things ignores it.

Except that anti-vehicle weapons should be ignoring armour saves because they're explicitly anti-armour weapons.

This is why no one cares that meltas are AP-5 or that Dark Lances are AP-4. Because they're literally designed to penetrate armour.

(Incidentally, this is something that should be better reflected in vehicles having better armour saves in general so that the extra penetration makes more difference, compared to anti-infantry and mid-range weapons.)

However, just outright ignoring invulnerable saves - on a weapon with absolutely insane damage, no less - is a completely different kettle of fish. It's bad for gameplay and it's bad for fluff because there's absolutely no reason why a weapon like this should be able to outright invalidate invulnerable saves.

As others have said, if there are too many invulnerable saves in the game, the solution is to remove or weaken them and adjust those units accordingly. Hell, we've even seen this to an extent with Storm Shields, Wraiths etc. having been redesigned to remove 3++ saves from the game. The solution is *not* to de facto bring D-weapons back but only for certain armies.

Pottsey wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Pottsey wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
It's 1 shot weapon on a large T7 13 Wounds 3+ save model that easily gets bracketed and becomes worse at hitting and costs nearly 200pts. It still needs to hit, and still needs to wound. They can get three of them in a Tau army. No one has a hard time killing T7 3+ save vehicles, they are going to shoot once and then die on average. On the off chance they live they will likely be bracketed to BS 5+ and die shortly thereafter.

If a Tau army wants to build around these Railguns they can take 10 shots a turn, not limited to 3 shots a turn. More if we include Broadsides which one would assume would be weaker but still deadly. 22+ Railgun shots should be doable if we count 6 per Broadsides squad with an expected 3 Broadsides able to upgrade to Magna Rail Rifles.

What other sources they have for hammerhead rail weapon than hammerhead in the GW codex(so not FW)? Note the broadside rail weapons are different weapons. You can't count them as these as stats will be different and we don't know yet. Odds are though as before it's the weaker version.

Tidewall Gunrigs are in the codex and have effectively the same rail weapon as the hammerhead only 2 shots each and possibly 3 shots with Kauyon. They might be one to watch out for with Markerlight support. I would be temped to outflank it with Breachers inside.

Hitting on 5+ and wasn't kayon the one that begins on turn 3 onward? That is dead one. And anything with rail cannon won't survive T3 even if tau player picks the inferior style.

Also...it's not same weapon so we don't know the stats yet. What we do know is that it's not same weapon though so you can't just assume stats are same.

I'd still like to point out that a LR or any decent anti-tank (7+ strength) shooting unit can wipe these off the table fairly quickly. Hell, a smash captain in could kill all three for 200 points and a few CP. They will likely cost 200-300 points, making them wildly inefficient, and rarely earn points back. It's a Tau Death Strike. Looks mean on paper, but rarely works out.

Disagree. The Deathstrike already looks bad on paper. This new weapon profile further invalidates specific units.

I'm sure everybody is looking forward to face Tau with even more shooting capabilities. It's not like this army is only partaking in a single phase of the game since it's inception.

Auxiliary troops would have been the better route for the game, imho.

It being trivial to wipe off the table may balance the hammerhead as an individual unit, but consider what that means for the game.

We have a unit that can delete any single model in 3 shots. You can take 4.

If that is balanced by the fact that it, in turn, can be deleted in 3 shots...

Maybe lethality is too high, hm? Having a rousing game of "I hide, your turn" in order to have any army left is a bad thing...


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Like, I could totally see myself in a crusade game picking Survivor and Lord of the Warp with my Daemons against this thing and literally hiding all game.

If his army moves any closer, my Slaanesh jump out and butcher it. If it doesn't, we just chill behind obscuring terrain for 5 turns and then shake hands and go home.

Fun game.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
It being trivial to wipe off the table may balance the hammerhead as an individual unit, but consider what that means for the game.

We have a unit that can delete any single model in 3 shots. You can take 4.

If that is balanced by the fact that it, in turn, can be deleted in 3 shots...

Maybe lethality is too high, hm? Having a rousing game of "I hide, your turn" in order to have any army left is a bad thing...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Like, I could totally see myself in a crusade game picking Survivor and Lord of the Warp with my Daemons against this thing and literally hiding all game.

If his army moves any closer, my Slaanesh jump out and butcher it. If it doesn't, we just chill behind obscuring terrain for 5 turns and then shake hands and go home.

Fun game.

There is nothing wrong in removing an high value target in 3 shots when you are a high value target and have a single shot. 3 shots means 3 turns. This means a 1/3 return, which is the gold standard.

The problem with this gun isn't the firepower, which isn't anything special, it is how weirdly swingy it is.

Spoletta wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
It being trivial to wipe off the table may balance the hammerhead as an individual unit, but consider what that means for the game.

We have a unit that can delete any single model in 3 shots. You can take 4.

If that is balanced by the fact that it, in turn, can be deleted in 3 shots...

Maybe lethality is too high, hm? Having a rousing game of "I hide, your turn" in order to have any army left is a bad thing...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Like, I could totally see myself in a crusade game picking Survivor and Lord of the Warp with my Daemons against this thing and literally hiding all game.

If his army moves any closer, my Slaanesh jump out and butcher it. If it doesn't, we just chill behind obscuring terrain for 5 turns and then shake hands and go home.

Fun game.

There is nothing wrong in removing an high value target in 3 shots when you are a high value target and have a single shot. 3 shots means 3 turns. This means a 1/3 return, which is the gold standard.

The problem with this gun isn't the firepower, which isn't anything special, it is how weirdly swingy it is.

I mean the problem *is* the firepower, innit?

And the 1/3rd return thing is on lords of war. Against Russes or Keepers this thing makes its points back in one shot.

I mean, how do I counter it with keepers, kill it first? It ignores any defensive measure I can take.

Fun game.

Nah, it takes this gun 3 shots to take down something like a Kill Rig, and this tank will have around the same cost.

Don't think it's a huge problem. If the Hammerhead sees a target, he'll kill it. Hurrah. And then it dies.

It's only toxic if that kind of output is on stuff you cannot interact with / hide from like Hive Guard, Stratoraptors, Wazboom Blastjets, etc..

Hammerhead plays the normal game with terrain, LoS, etc.. It should kill stuff when it gets to shoot, IMO. What shouldn't ever, ever happen in a game of 40K is a T7 vehicle dying to planes, hive guard or some such when you have it hidden.

Spoletta wrote:
Nah, it takes this gun 3 shots to take down something like a Kill Rig, and this tank will have around the same cost.

A single Hammerhead with this profile is almost guaranteed to bracket the kill rig, and could possibly kill it.

People forget hammerheads have 2x secondary guns as well like the 12 shots from burst cannons (or worse, that isn't the only option).

The Tau little guns are getting buffed too.

On paper hammered's lethality means nothing. We miss the big picture, and only after the whole codex is released we could judge. Or, even better, only a few months after the codex release.

I still remember how people screamed OP!! when they learned about T5 ork boyz predicting unkillable hordes that would break the game. It turned out that no one takes large blobs of boyz anymore . Many don't even field a single ork boy now. Only min cheap squads of ork infantries are actually used pretty often and they would be used in the same numbers even if they still were T4.

So yeah, at the moment that thing might look scary and it might be OP, but it's completely irrelevant now. I'll wait for the whole picture, as always, before wrapping my head around it.

Yeah, thinking CORE is the secret sauce here. I'm betting Hammerheads aren't CORE.

Well, they have the re-roll to hit through targeting array and re-roll to wound through Mont'ka. Even assuming they get no Black-Heart-Equivalent-Sept with a single re-roll, which traditionally helps non-Core units with very few, very high quality shots quite a bit.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'd still like to point out that a LR or any decent anti-tank (7+ strength) shooting unit can wipe these off the table fairly quickly.

Even if that's true, I fail to see how it's good for the game.

When we have glass-cannons that can just delete other models if they get to shoot first, we might as well just roll the dice to see who goes first and call the game then and there.

 RaptorusRex wrote:
Yeah, thinking CORE is the secret sauce here. I'm betting Hammerheads aren't CORE.

They bring their own rerolls. Why would core matter?

a_typical_hero wrote:
Disagree. The Deathstrike already looks bad on paper. This new weapon profile further invalidates specific units.

I'm sure everybody is looking forward to face Tau with even more shooting capabilities. It's not like this army is only partaking in a single phase of the game since it's inception.

Auxiliary troops would have been the better route for the game, imho.

Yeah, lets just give the army whose whole schtick is specialising in having incredibly strong firepower, no psykers and no melee bunch of psychic and melee units. Then they can be like every other army in the game. In fact you know what would make the game balanced? Just a single codex. Then we can reduce the differences in armies to being cosmetic only.

Look, I solved 40k!

 Sim-Life wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:
Disagree. The Deathstrike already looks bad on paper. This new weapon profile further invalidates specific units.

I'm sure everybody is looking forward to face Tau with even more shooting capabilities. It's not like this army is only partaking in a single phase of the game since it's inception.

Auxiliary troops would have been the better route for the game, imho.

Yeah, lets just give the army whose whole schtick is specialising in having incredibly strong firepower, no psykers and no melee bunch of psychic and melee units. Then they can be like every other army in the game. In fact you know what would make the game balanced? Just a single codex. Then we can reduce the differences in armies to being cosmetic only.

Look, I solved 40k!

Why are you talking about Necrons? GW finally gave them killy melee units and "mages" this update - this thread is about Tau.

EDIT:

tneva82 wrote:

Pottsey wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Pottsey wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
It's 1 shot weapon on a large T7 13 Wounds 3+ save model that easily gets bracketed and becomes worse at hitting and costs nearly 200pts. It still needs to hit, and still needs to wound. They can get three of them in a Tau army. No one has a hard time killing T7 3+ save vehicles, they are going to shoot once and then die on average. On the off chance they live they will likely be bracketed to BS 5+ and die shortly thereafter.

If a Tau army wants to build around these Railguns they can take 10 shots a turn, not limited to 3 shots a turn. More if we include Broadsides which one would assume would be weaker but still deadly. 22+ Railgun shots should be doable if we count 6 per Broadsides squad with an expected 3 Broadsides able to upgrade to Magna Rail Rifles.

What other sources they have for hammerhead rail weapon than hammerhead in the GW codex(so not FW)? Note the broadside rail weapons are different weapons. You can't count them as these as stats will be different and we don't know yet. Odds are though as before it's the weaker version.

Tidewall Gunrigs are in the codex and have effectively the same rail weapon as the hammerhead only 2 shots each and possibly 3 shots with Kauyon. They might be one to watch out for with Markerlight support. I would be temped to outflank it with Breachers inside.

Hitting on 5+ and wasn't kayon the one that begins on turn 3 onward? That is dead one. And anything with rail cannon won't survive T3 even if tau player picks the inferior style.

Also...it's not same weapon so we don't know the stats yet. What we do know is that it's not same weapon though so you can't just assume stats are same.

That's why you outflank it on turn 3 and its a transport so you unload the Breachers into the backlines. Then boost its chance to hit and have it get an extra hit on up to a 4+. Its a Supermacy railgun so its even bigger then a hammerhead railgun, very unlikely to have worse stats. It will either be the same stats and 2 shots or even higher stats and 1 shot. In the past its always been the same stats only an extra shots. Yes there are some unknowns but its not something to just write off. I don't think a Supermacy railgun with Kauyon and a full breaches squad is something that can just be ignored. Its something to keep an eye on for when we have more info.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Currently Heavy 2, S18, AP-5, d6+6D + 3MWs on a successful wound roll in the Imperial Armour Compendium. They'll probably add "ignore invuls" in a FAQ.

I find it interesting that most of this was hiding in plain sight the whole time.

I've been waiting since third Ed for railguns that look like this.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I just don't understand why it ignores Invul saves.

It uhh....bypasses the invulnerable "refresh rate"?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I just don't understand why it ignores Invul saves.

It uhh....bypasses the invulnerable "refresh rate"?

Earth caste figured out how to weaponise all the vitriol poured on Tau players over the years. Powerful stuff.