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 Albertorius wrote:

Voss wrote:

If things go well they could even end up going back to cast production after the range recovers and gets high on sales again.

If this works,* they have little incentive to change back. Why would they eat their profits retooling (again!), this time for a more expensive production type, and hope their new playerbase is willing to soak another change?



*and I honestly hope it doesn't work. Sorry, no malice, but this isn't a direction I want the industry to be nudged.

Why, if I may ask? Centralized production is clearly showing its issues, lately.

What? Why would you even think that was directed at regional production facilities?

I was thinking more about more tabletop games being built around App-centric nonsense, effectively voiding their existing model range, and going for unskilled (low pay) 3d printer minders rather than a skilled (and hopefully better paid) work staff. And the quality issues of 3d printing over proper casting, as well as future quantity bottlenecks.

'Centralized production' doesn't even make it on the list of concerns, especially not with PP's track record of awful shipping- they'd be hard pressed to be much worse than they already are at that (even within the continental US they're awful). Though that set, their regional facility plans are dependent on future agreements, so I don't even know if they'll manage it. Past distribution in Europe didn't go very well, or so I'm told, so that doesn't exactly inspire confidence in their ability to manage local printer farms.

Voss wrote:

If this works,* they have little incentive to change back.

I don't know about that. 3d printing doesn't scale particularly well with volume right now. What works for a boutique franchise revival might not work for a popular product stores actually want on their shelves.

RE 3D printed resin models brings being brittle, depends on what resin you use. There is stuff on the market now that is pretty durable, has a good amount of flex to it where things don't just snap if mishandled. There's some videos demonstrating this where people are forcefully throwing 3D printed resin models on the floor trying to break them and they remain intact after several bouts of heavy abuse.

Everything mentioned thus far, specifically 3D-printed models, PDF''s, and apps, as well as the dead in the water playstyle for legends models means that Warmahordes will never again be played by me. I love the setting and am backing the RPG Kickstarters, but this.... not for this dude.

 His Master's Voice wrote:

Voss wrote:

If this works,* they have little incentive to change back.

I don't know about that. 3d printing doesn't scale particularly well with volume right now. What works for a boutique franchise revival might not work for a popular product stores actually want on their shelves.

You may well be right. In which case they're not solving the problem, just putting off their crisis and pretending everything is fine. They're making a huge change and basically doing it with the tattered remnants of a fanbase that may not even like the new direction. That's rough.

 anab0lic wrote:
RE 3D printed resin models brings being brittle, depends on what resin you use. There is stuff on the market now that is pretty durable, has a good amount of flex to it where things don't just snap if mishandled. There's some videos demonstrating this where people are forcefully throwing 3D printed resin models on the floor trying to break them and they remain intact after several bouts of heavy abuse.

Which brings another concern. Looking at PP past they seem to favour errr dubious quality casting materials.
A company in this position of cutting costs, deleting Production and poor quality control track record does raise many concerns about the quality you will probably get. Mind we know prices will remain high though.


For me the biggest blow is the current model range being abandoned, thats never good IMO.

 Overread wrote:

jullevi wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

jullevi wrote:
Interestingly enough, just a moment earlier I wondered if Forgeworld should start selling 3D printed models, at least for part of the range.

If they did that, I feel like the STLs would cost at least three times of what the actual model would cost if you just bought it from them. That just seems like how they would go about it.

I didn't mean STLs but physical, printed models.

Thing is that just doesn't work for GW.

Your points aren't wrong, but the posters before you were talking about Forge World resin, not GW plastic being replaced by 3d prints.

No printed Books and Profile Cards for WM MkIV? This Game is DoA.

RazorEdge wrote:
No printed Books and Profile Cards for WM MkIV? This Game is DoA.

Pretty much everyone I knew who played MK2 had swapped over to digital by the end of the edition and the physical cards/books for MK3 just did not sell. Even slashed at big discounts they didn't move. Similarly A Song of Ice & Fire sells card packs, but they're outdated by rules updates so quickly that very few people bother.

It is interesting to see the contrast between GW and PP threads when it comes to the, "GW need to fully digitalise VS If PP go digital only it's dead."

I think the GW thread has people asking for a digital option (which would indeed be good) as there are folk that prefer it (especially if they need 4 or 5 books to play)

but given an either or situation i'd go for books over apps (but then i'm no doubt on the upper end of the age profile on here)

Voss wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

Voss wrote:

If things go well they could even end up going back to cast production after the range recovers and gets high on sales again.

If this works,* they have little incentive to change back. Why would they eat their profits retooling (again!), this time for a more expensive production type, and hope their new playerbase is willing to soak another change?



*and I honestly hope it doesn't work. Sorry, no malice, but this isn't a direction I want the industry to be nudged.

Why, if I may ask? Centralized production is clearly showing its issues, lately.

What? Why would you even think that was directed at regional production facilities?

I mean... because what you quoted is talking about cast production, and not the app?

 Arbitrator wrote:

RazorEdge wrote:
No printed Books and Profile Cards for WM MkIV? This Game is DoA.

Pretty much everyone I knew who played MK2 had swapped over to digital by the end of the edition and the physical cards/books for MK3 just did not sell. Even slashed at big discounts they didn't move. Similarly A Song of Ice & Fire sells card packs, but they're outdated by rules updates so quickly that very few people bother.

It is interesting to see the contrast between GW and PP threads when it comes to the, "GW need to fully digitalise VS If PP go digital only it's dead."

There is a distinct difference between 'GW shouldn't have stopped producing digital _books_' and 'PP shouldn't go digital _app_ only.'
Its downright weird to pretend those are the same.

Voss wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

Voss wrote:

If things go well they could even end up going back to cast production after the range recovers and gets high on sales again.

If this works,* they have little incentive to change back. Why would they eat their profits retooling (again!), this time for a more expensive production type, and hope their new playerbase is willing to soak another change?



*and I honestly hope it doesn't work. Sorry, no malice, but this isn't a direction I want the industry to be nudged.

Why, if I may ask? Centralized production is clearly showing its issues, lately.

What? Why would you even think that was directed at regional production facilities?

I mean... because what you quoted is talking about cast production, and not the app?

'Centralized production' doesn't even make it on the list of concerns, especially not with PP's track record of awful shipping- they'd be hard pressed to be much worse than they already are at that (even within the continental US they're awful). Though that set, their regional facility plans are dependent on future agreements, so I don't even know if they'll manage it. Past distribution in Europe didn't go very well, or so I'm told, so that doesn't exactly inspire confidence in their ability to manage local printer farms.

Distribution in Europe basically doesn't exist, as of now, and hasn't for some years. Even getting their mini crate stuff was an ordeal.

 Albertorius wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

Voss wrote:

If things go well they could even end up going back to cast production after the range recovers and gets high on sales again.

If this works,* they have little incentive to change back. Why would they eat their profits retooling (again!), this time for a more expensive production type, and hope their new playerbase is willing to soak another change?



*and I honestly hope it doesn't work. Sorry, no malice, but this isn't a direction I want the industry to be nudged.

Why, if I may ask? Centralized production is clearly showing its issues, lately.

What? Why would you even think that was directed at regional production facilities?

I mean... because what you quoted is talking about cast production, and not the app?

Right. production via 3d printer. Not localized production.
And when asked for clarification I went into detail. Just because the app was the first thing I mentioned doesn't mean that was the end.

'Centralized production' doesn't even make it on the list of concerns, especially not with PP's track record of awful shipping- they'd be hard pressed to be much worse than they already are at that (even within the continental US they're awful). Though that set, their regional facility plans are dependent on future agreements, so I don't even know if they'll manage it. Past distribution in Europe didn't go very well, or so I'm told, so that doesn't exactly inspire confidence in their ability to manage local printer farms.

Distribution in Europe basically doesn't exist, as of now, and hasn't for some years. Even getting their mini crate stuff was an ordeal.

Right? So... do you really think they'll manage their pipe dream here?

Voss wrote:
Right. production via 3d printer. Not localized production.
And when asked for clarification I went into detail. Just because the app was the first thing I mentioned doesn't mean that was the end.

From what I understand, the main reasons for them to go into 3d printing is operational cost and distribution, and they kinda go hand in hand.

I don't know what to think about the app, but at least it should have the option of printing stuff down.

Right? So... do you really think they'll manage their pipe dream here?

How, exactly, could it be worse than it is now, given there's esentially no distribution whatsoever in the EU? 3d printing farms are not exactly rocket science, and they are actually both cheaper and much less complicated than centralized logistics, as you cut completely off the whole "moving stuff all around the world" part of the equation.

PP been legendary bad with stocks and distribution, I lost track how many times I gave up on chasing for certain minis that were always out of stock. What a torture thinking back on that.
Their localised studio opening seems another unclear thing they wrote about 3d printing... they dont sound particularly that well informed.... they did mentioned a lot of times quality will improve in the future guys... as if errr they know high end 3d printing on small 28mm miniatures tends to be pricy/slow, so for now its a compromise in quality XD XD


BTW I wonder whats going to happen to their paints... maybe sell it to Duncan and call it - paint like you have a pair.

I'm not entirely sure that setting up multiple regional commercial level printer farms which then need QA, prep, pick and pack facilities (at minimum) before hand off to a local logistics partner is better and or cheaper than what games companies already have?

Have PP just discovered Shapeways?



And will I need to purchase an app in order to see if I even like playing the new game?

The more I read the more I think this level of communication is somehow geared for a final implosion (well guys we tried but our plan was just a step too far. Sorry, it was a fun ride).

I've kind of come to terms with the Legacy content because... honestly.... Warmachine needs to thrive on the kitchen table again. In a lot of ways its probably pretty healthy to have an environment like Prime for the tournament crowd to chase while also having a huge pile of Legacy content that players want to make use of to keep demand on an Unlimited format. Do I think Unlimited events will really be a thing? Not at all, but I think having players happy to play their Unlimited army will be a nice thing to keep the community's worst tendencies in check.

Long term, every competitive game burns out its players. The difference between Warmachine and a lot of similar games like Magic or 40k, is that those games continue to thrive with casual environments that keep players engaged when they fall behind and attract new players who need a less rigid meta to find their feet in.

Personally, I'll have a Prime army, but I'm way past the point of caring if people want to bring an Unlimited army or proxy something or whatever. I don't really care if Unlimited is competitive or whatever; as long as it exists and players are willing to play against players with old stuff, it serves its purpose. If players are NOT willing to play in Unlimited.... well, then the community is probably going to continue to strangle itself until it gets what it deserves.

Personally I'm willing ot see where PP goes with these ideas. They are not what I want, they are not ideal and they are not perfect. but I'll take it if it means Warmachine survives and has a decent chance at rebuilding and perhaps thriving again; over the alternative which I think is PP just having to drop the game entirely due to lack of sales. We don't have the raw data, but I'm willing to bet sales of Warmachine are not on the up and at best are level or dipping. Pandemic might have had an upswing, but I just think PP is losing Warmachine customers and not replacing them right now. It's "Old World" situation and it needs a shake up.

So I'll take PP using some different methods to allow them to revamp things much cheaper. Cutting out supply lines for books and models is not a bad move considering the mess international shipping is in right now and considering that its always been an issue for PP in the past. This might well be the stop-gap PP needs to restore sales; to get numbers up; to get the game back on shelves and back in gaming groups to generate income to buy new casting machines; to expand their team etc...

And if not perhaps its enough that it allows PP's creative team to keep making new models and to keep the game supported even if it never takes off in a big way again. I'll honestly take all that over PP having to kill it off; or (even worse) PP over-investing and killing themselves. I'd hate to see them go the way of firms like Spartan Games.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 Overread wrote:

jullevi wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

jullevi wrote:
Interestingly enough, just a moment earlier I wondered if Forgeworld should start selling 3D printed models, at least for part of the range.

If they did that, I feel like the STLs would cost at least three times of what the actual model would cost if you just bought it from them. That just seems like how they would go about it.

I didn't mean STLs but physical, printed models.

Thing is that just doesn't work for GW.

Your points aren't wrong, but the posters before you were talking about Forge World resin, not GW plastic being replaced by 3d prints.

Yep but even resin casting is faster than 3D printing. A single build plate for something like a tank, titan or dragon could take 24 hours or longer with 3D printing and it gives you 1 product per 1 machine. A bigger machine might let you get two or three off (depending on sizes). Again for smaller scale production 3D printing works great; but when you scale things up casting generally comes out on top for volume.

3D printing? GW are doomed this time.

There is a distinct possibility that PP are hiding their lack of knowledge and accumen at dealing with distribution and production issues by pivoting to a shiny new production and distro model as an internal distraction as much as anything else.

Have they burnt too many bridges with their current partners?

Well they are still going to use regular distribution for Warcaster, Monster Apoc, RPG and Boardgames

So it is just quick and easy plastics manufacturing they have a problem with?


Weird then.

Implying that there's literally anything "quick and easy" about dealing with foreign manufacturing is a big ol' lol.

I figure its the upfront costs and being burned in the past by factories in China/overseas. They don't want to revisit a plan that failed in the past and they perhaps don't have the money to hand to invest into Siocast machines off the back of current Warmachine sales.


It might just be they need a few years of the market settling; of sales and customers increasing in a meaningful way and of income from the game increasing before they can justify such expenditure.

Again we have to remember this isn't PP at the height of MK2 popularity. They've had years of dwindling customers, reducing fanbase, reducing and burning bridges with distribution and 3rd party retailers and even loss of staff at their end. This isn't the environment where its sensible to start throwing big investment money into it without at least trying to take a cheaper pathway to properly test the waters. The market is also WAY more flooded with products and complex than it was when PP started; where their competition was almost only GW. Today there are a lot of middleweight firms and the bottom end is chocked with 3D printing and that's after around 2 years of 3D printing being viable so that's got a lot of room to grow and mature

Voss wrote:

 His Master's Voice wrote:

Voss wrote:

If this works,* they have little incentive to change back.

I don't know about that. 3d printing doesn't scale particularly well with volume right now. What works for a boutique franchise revival might not work for a popular product stores actually want on their shelves.

You may well be right. In which case they're not solving the problem, just putting off their crisis and pretending everything is fine. They're making a huge change and basically doing it with the tattered remnants of a fanbase that may not even like the new direction. That's rough.

To me, this looks like a gamble that you don't take if everything is fine as is. Maybe they don't have enough of a fanbase left to sustain them anyway. And both long time fans and new players often complain about the faction bloat that will be addressed by Squatting 90% of everything.

There's a bit of a problem with living lifestyle games in that they need to burn their game down every once in a while.

Magic has set this as an expectation and continuously plants seeds to replace the trees. Games Workshop does controlled burns. Privateer Press has let the forest overgrow and is now burning the whole thing down in one blazing inferno hoping to save what little there is left.

I read the entire article, and quite frankly, I think they’re pricing themselves out of reach.

$200 start up cost of JUST the models for one army. No books, no paper, just the models. Which might be of questionable quality. Sorry but I absolutely hate 3D prints. I’ve had several from many smaller operations and they range from horrible to mediocre.
Cleaning support nipples from a model is way more effort and work then mold lines on any other material. But that’s my experience so whatever.

The problem here is that it’s a $200 buy in and $175 for the rest of the army to 75.
That’s….ludicrous pricing?
To top it all off it’s app only and no print materials at all, and like War room before, no options to print your stuff.
Sorry but this has zero appeal. And trying to get new players into a game where your base cost darts at $260CAD? Good luck with that.

 Overread wrote:
I figure its the upfront costs and being burned in the past by factories in China/overseas. They don't want to revisit a plan that failed in the past and they perhaps don't have the money to hand to invest into Siocast machines off the back of current Warmachine sales.

Certainly that plays a part.

We've seen lot of Kickstarters that produced goods in China are asking (or demanding) more money from their backers AND taking huge losses because the prices both for transport and for production have skyrocketed. That cuts a massive hole in Privateer Press' plastic strategy.

3D printing has some real advantages- especially in smaller volume.

 NAVARRO wrote:

 anab0lic wrote:
RE 3D printed resin models brings being brittle, depends on what resin you use. There is stuff on the market now that is pretty durable, has a good amount of flex to it where things don't just snap if mishandled. There's some videos demonstrating this where people are forcefully throwing 3D printed resin models on the floor trying to break them and they remain intact after several bouts of heavy abuse.

Which brings another concern. Looking at PP past they seem to favour errr dubious quality casting materials.
A company in this position of cutting costs, deleting Production and poor quality control track record does raise many concerns about the quality you will probably get. Mind we know prices will remain high though.


For me the biggest blow is the current model range being abandoned, thats never good IMO.

Not entirely sure what the price difference is between default resin and the more durable stuff... perhaps someone could shed some light on this. They really need this reboot to have good initial reception though, cheaping out and producing models that get broken en route to being delivered to your house would not bode well for them... especially with how quick negative reviews spread online nowadays.

Really though, my prediction was that PP would team up with Mythic like they did for Mon Poc, which turned out to be a huge success. Using Mythics contacts to get everything made in china and also take advantage of Mythics marketing abilities, as well as Kickstarter, to launch a new edition and get a lot of new eyes on the product. I Honestly think that could have worked out well for them, even with splitting the profits. Though, this is Matt Wilson's baby, you can see the passion/emotion entwined in his writing in that article, its obvious that he still cares dearly for this game, perhaps he didn't want to share the responsibility of its success or failure with another entity , which is understandable.

 odinsgrandson wrote:

 Overread wrote:
I figure its the upfront costs and being burned in the past by factories in China/overseas. They don't want to revisit a plan that failed in the past and they perhaps don't have the money to hand to invest into Siocast machines off the back of current Warmachine sales.

Certainly that plays a part.

We've seen lot of Kickstarters that produced goods in China are asking (or demanding) more money from their backers AND taking huge losses because the prices both for transport and for production have skyrocketed. That cuts a massive hole in Privateer Press' plastic strategy.

3D printing has some real advantages- especially in smaller volume.

In fairness for the KS that's because many of them started before/at the start of the Pandemic and since then the prices skyrocketed. When you consider that a lot of KS often run very tight margins to get a low price to get loads of customers; its understandable that many are suddenly having to ask for more or cut features or the estimated shipping is way higher than advertised. I honestly don't blame them, its really something they couldn't predict nor control and its hitting pretty much everyone. Even big names like GW are having issues getting stock moved around and that's for a big name doing regular releases on a weekly setup.

but yep I can 100% see why a firm which has had issues in the past; has a current franchise that's pretty big and doesn't appear to have lots of resources; would want to avoid the nightmare of international shipping as much as they can.