40K ark of omen grand tournament pack

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**tneva82**

stonehorse wrote:
What is even the point in having a Force Organisation Chart anymore?

I think this is the sales team basically getting the rules team to remove all hurdles to entry.

As the decades roll on, the more I miss 3rd edition when it was just the lists in the rule book. Those were fun times.

Well stops loyalists from building all dread army.

5+ greater daemon lists become impossible.

But yea not much restrictions beside ro3

**stonehorse**

tneva82 wrote:
stonehorse wrote:
What is even the point in having a Force Organisation Chart anymore?

I think this is the sales team basically getting the rules team to remove all hurdles to entry.

As the decades roll on, the more I miss 3rd edition when it was just the lists in the rule book. Those were fun times.

Well stops loyalists from building all dread army.

5+ greater daemon lists become impossible.

But yea not much restrictions beside ro3

Anyone even wanting to take those is best to avoid. Life is too short to play against people with the WAAC mentality, just sucks the fun out of the game.

**Dudeface**

stonehorse wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
stonehorse wrote:
What is even the point in having a Force Organisation Chart anymore?

I think this is the sales team basically getting the rules team to remove all hurdles to entry.

As the decades roll on, the more I miss 3rd edition when it was just the lists in the rule book. Those were fun times.

Well stops loyalists from building all dread army.

5+ greater daemon lists become impossible.

But yea not much restrictions beside ro3

Anyone even wanting to take those is best to avoid. Life is too short to play against people with the WAAC mentality, just sucks the fun out of the game.

Gentle reminder this is for tournament/organised play rules, which is inherently aimed at WAAC players. I'd also say a 5 greater daemon lists or all dreads is not WAAC, its just a funky skew list.

**stonehorse**

Dudeface wrote:
stonehorse wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
stonehorse wrote:
What is even the point in having a Force Organisation Chart anymore?

I think this is the sales team basically getting the rules team to remove all hurdles to entry.

As the decades roll on, the more I miss 3rd edition when it was just the lists in the rule book. Those were fun times.

Well stops loyalists from building all dread army.

5+ greater daemon lists become impossible.

But yea not much restrictions beside ro3

Anyone even wanting to take those is best to avoid. Life is too short to play against people with the WAAC mentality, just sucks the fun out of the game.

Gentle reminder this is for tournament/organised play rules, which is inherently aimed at WAAC players. I'd also say a 5 greater daemon lists or all dreads is not WAAC, its just a funky skew list.

What if I told you that tournament play doesn't have to be WAAC. What if I told you tournaments can be a way for players who don't get a lot of chance to game, to get get a few games in during a day.

WAAC/ultra competitive mindset is what is damaging to the miniatures hobby. Never understood the burning need to win in a game where players push plastic toys around, just feels like a massive over compensation for something.

**Dudeface**

stonehorse wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
stonehorse wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
stonehorse wrote:
What is even the point in having a Force Organisation Chart anymore?

I think this is the sales team basically getting the rules team to remove all hurdles to entry.

As the decades roll on, the more I miss 3rd edition when it was just the lists in the rule book. Those were fun times.

Well stops loyalists from building all dread army.

5+ greater daemon lists become impossible.

But yea not much restrictions beside ro3

Anyone even wanting to take those is best to avoid. Life is too short to play against people with the WAAC mentality, just sucks the fun out of the game.

Gentle reminder this is for tournament/organised play rules, which is inherently aimed at WAAC players. I'd also say a 5 greater daemon lists or all dreads is not WAAC, its just a funky skew list.

What if I told you that tournament play doesn't have to be WAAC. What if I told you tournaments can be a way for players who don't get a lot of chance to game, to get get a few games in during a day.

WAAC/ultra competitive mindset is what is damaging to the miniatures hobby. Never understood the burning need to win in a game where players push plastic toys around, just feels like a massive over compensation for something.

I don't disagree with any of that (beyond maybe over compensating, competition means different things to different people), but these are optional rules for competing in tournaments where for at least some people, their main goal will be to win the event.

But I feel your definition of WAAC might be a little off the mark if you put all dreadnought armies in that bucket.

This mission pack, somewhat ironically, is probably more of a casual players dream given the flexibility to do weird things with it.

**p5freak**

tneva82 wrote:
stonehorse wrote:
What is even the point in having a Force Organisation Chart anymore?

I think this is the sales team basically getting the rules team to remove all hurdles to entry.

As the decades roll on, the more I miss 3rd edition when it was just the lists in the rule book. Those were fun times.

Well stops loyalists from building all dread army.

5+ greater daemon lists become impossible.

But yea not much restrictions beside ro3

Astra can build an all LRBT army, but marines cant build an all dread army, sounds fair.

**BorderCountess**

p5freak wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
stonehorse wrote:
What is even the point in having a Force Organisation Chart anymore?

I think this is the sales team basically getting the rules team to remove all hurdles to entry.

As the decades roll on, the more I miss 3rd edition when it was just the lists in the rule book. Those were fun times.

Well stops loyalists from building all dread army.

5+ greater daemon lists become impossible.

But yea not much restrictions beside ro3

Astra can build an all LRBT army, but marines cant build an all dread army, sounds fair.

Blood Angels should be fine, right?

**tneva82**

Nope. 3 hq, 6 elite isn't enough. Well except maybe 1k tournament.

Loalists(at least blood angels) have no dreads in troop, fa or heavy support so 3 hq, 6 eiite is cap. No 3 for 1 slot either

**JakeSiren**

tneva82 wrote:
Nope. 3 hq, 6 elite isn't enough. Well except maybe 1k tournament.

Loalists(at least blood angels) have no dreads in troop, fa or heavy support so 3 hq, 6 eiite is cap. No 3 for 1 slot either

If you run an ADEPTUS ASTARTES detachment you can throw in Murderfang (SW) into the Elite Character slots, plus Bjorn the Fell-handed can make up the 4th HQ.

So, 3 Librarian Dreadnoughts, Bjorn, Murderfang, 3 x Redemptors, and 3 x Venerable Dreadnoughts
If you chose SPACE WOLVES for <CHAPTER> then the Venerable Dreadnoughts can take Axes and Blizzard Shields (the Librarian Dreads have BLOOD ANGLES as a fixed keyword, right?).

By my estimates, with all upgrades, this will bring in the list at 1915 points for a total of 11 Dreadnoughts. I'm not sure if there are more expensive options that I might have overlooked, but 1915 isn't too bad all things told.

**Gibblets**

What scares me the most about the allies matrix is: For example I have deathwing terminators and I ally in a votann patrol do I now have access to both books secondaries for matched play would there be any limit on mixing them. If there's no limits, 9th is dead now, brought down by the horrible idea of army specific secondaries.

**alextroy**

p5freak wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
stonehorse wrote:
What is even the point in having a Force Organisation Chart anymore?

I think this is the sales team basically getting the rules team to remove all hurdles to entry.

As the decades roll on, the more I miss 3rd edition when it was just the lists in the rule book. Those were fun times.

Well stops loyalists from building all dread army.

5+ greater daemon lists become impossible.

But yea not much restrictions beside ro3

Astra can build an all LRBT army, but marines cant build an all dread army, sounds fair.

Given that march of the dreadnaughts is not something that happens every century while Tank Companies are a staple of the Astra Militarum, it seems totally fair to me.

**Laughing Man**

JakeSiren wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Nope. 3 hq, 6 elite isn't enough. Well except maybe 1k tournament.

Loalists(at least blood angels) have no dreads in troop, fa or heavy support so 3 hq, 6 eiite is cap. No 3 for 1 slot either

If you run an ADEPTUS ASTARTES detachment you can throw in Murderfang (SW) into the Elite Character slots, plus Bjorn the Fell-handed can make up the 4th HQ.

So, 3 Librarian Dreadnoughts, Bjorn, Murderfang, 3 x Redemptors, and 3 x Venerable Dreadnoughts
If you chose SPACE WOLVES for <CHAPTER> then the Venerable Dreadnoughts can take Axes and Blizzard Shields (the Librarian Dreads have BLOOD ANGLES as a fixed keyword, right?).

By my estimates, with all upgrades, this will bring in the list at 1915 points for a total of 11 Dreadnoughts. I'm not sure if there are more expensive options that I might have overlooked, but 1915 isn't too bad all things told.

Swap the VenDreads for Contemptors, Deredeos, or Leviathans and you can break 2k pretty easily.

**ZergSmasher**

Gibblets wrote:
What scares me the most about the allies matrix is: For example I have deathwing terminators and I ally in a votann patrol do I now have access to both books secondaries for matched play would there be any limit on mixing them. If there's no limits, 9th is dead now, brought down by the horrible idea of army specific secondaries.

I'm pretty sure mixing factions takes away your access to faction specific secondaries. Or else, maybe you only have access to the ones that match your warlord's faction. One of those two, don't have my book in front of me right now. Of course, maybe the new tournament book changes that and I'm talking out of my ass right now...

**Laughing Man**

ZergSmasher wrote:
Gibblets wrote:
What scares me the most about the allies matrix is: For example I have deathwing terminators and I ally in a votann patrol do I now have access to both books secondaries for matched play would there be any limit on mixing them. If there's no limits, 9th is dead now, brought down by the horrible idea of army specific secondaries.

I'm pretty sure mixing factions takes away your access to faction specific secondaries. Or else, maybe you only have access to the ones that match your warlord's faction. One of those two, don't have my book in front of me right now. Of course, maybe the new tournament book changes that and I'm talking out of my ass right now...

The Rules wrote:If a secondary objective appears only when corresponding Faction filter is selected, it is a faction secondary objective and it can only be selected by a player if every unit from their army (excluding AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM, AGENT OF CHAOS and UNALIGNED units) is from the appropriate faction.

You're correct, you only get faction secondaries when your entire army is of that specific faction

**drbored**

The only difference between a themed list that spams a lot of a handful of things and a WAAC list that spams a lot of a handful of things is...

intent.

Very difficult to measure across the internet, but when you sit down with your opponent at a tournament or FLGS you'll quickly figure out what the intent is.

There are some GREAT themes out there that have at different times been super busted broken and at others have been horribly underpowered. Dreadnought lists, Iyanden wraith lists, Saim Hann biker lists, White Scars biker lists, Blood Angels Drop Pod spam, Mechanized Guard of varying degrees, 'Oops All Baneblades' lists, etc, etc.

I often encourage people to pursue those themes if that's the sort of army they're interested in building, painting, and playing. Many players, casual and tournament, will have much more fun playing a list that fits a theme than they will trying a list that's been shoe-horned into a specific FOC or that has been tailored to a competitive meta. In fact, many people I know are often DISCOURAGED if certain options are too powerful.

The only reason I haven't done an entire Word Bearers 'oops all Dreadnoughts' list in 30k is because dreads are just too powerful in the current iteration. I'd love to do it, but I don't want to be 'that guy'.

So how does this relate to the new FOC?

Well, frankly, the new FOC allows people more flexibility in pursuing those themed lists... but it's a tournament-pack-based thing. Doesn't mean people can't use it in casual play. After all, if it's been balanced with tournament play in mind, then it's likely just as good for casual list-building too. That's how a lot of tournament rules tend to be viewed when used in casual settings. Casual players often adopt those things because it's the 'in' thing to do.

So, yes, you will see more 'spam' lists, but before you jump on someone for being WAAC, consider their intent. Are they building it to be a skewed meta-breaker, or do they just really like dreadnoughts?

**tneva82**

alextroy wrote:
p5freak wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
stonehorse wrote:
What is even the point in having a Force Organisation Chart anymore?

I think this is the sales team basically getting the rules team to remove all hurdles to entry.

As the decades roll on, the more I miss 3rd edition when it was just the lists in the rule book. Those were fun times.

Well stops loyalists from building all dread army.

5+ greater daemon lists become impossible.

But yea not much restrictions beside ro3

Astra can build an all LRBT army, but marines cant build an all dread army, sounds fair.
Given that march of the dreadnaughts is not something that happens every century while Tank Companies are a staple of the Astra Militarum, it seems totally fair to me.

But is dreadnought list more broken? That's what should matter in this missionpack.

You DID read what this mission pack is intended for didn't you? Right?

Oh wait you talk about fluff so no you didn't so your comment is worthless junk.

**kodos**

As by the local TO, with this supplement we get the most balanced version of 40k that has ever been there, which is also the most fun game

So I guess if you played something that is now not possible you must have been a powergamer
(as it was pointed out in the past, GW does not remove armies from the game, so if you had a legal, fluffy army before, it will always be a legal army)

That there is change simple for the sake of change because tournaments get boring after everyone is playing the very same lists for a year because there is not much variation in the game on the top

**BorderCountess**

tneva82 wrote:
Nope. 3 hq, 6 elite isn't enough. Well except maybe 1k tournament.

Loalists(at least blood angels) have no dreads in troop, fa or heavy support so 3 hq, 6 eiite is cap. No 3 for 1 slot either

It's actually 4 HQ, right?

4 Librarians, 3 Redemptors, and 3 Leviathans fills out 2000 points.

**tneva82**

Nice job at cheating

**JNAProductions**

Manfred von Drakken wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Nope. 3 hq, 6 elite isn't enough. Well except maybe 1k tournament.

Loalists(at least blood angels) have no dreads in troop, fa or heavy support so 3 hq, 6 eiite is cap. No 3 for 1 slot either

It's actually 4 HQ, right?

4 Librarians, 3 Redemptors, and 3 Leviathans fills out 2000 points.

There is still the Rule of Three, to my knowledge.

**BorderCountess**

Damn, I had a feeling I was missing something.

**solkan**

kodos wrote:

(as it was pointed out in the past, GW does not remove armies from the game, so if you had a legal, fluffy army before, it will always be a legal army

The rest of your post was funny, but this part was just the best. Doomrider and my mounted Chaos Lord and his chaos hounds salute you.

**kodos**

Hey there fellow Chaos player

Yeah, I always laugh too when someone tells me the main reason why they play 40k is that this is the only game were they can sure that their army is still valid in 3+ years

**xttz**

tneva82 wrote:
alextroy wrote:

Given that march of the dreadnaughts is not something that happens every century while Tank Companies are a staple of the Astra Militarum, it seems totally fair to me.

But is dreadnought list more broken? That's what should matter in this missionpack.

The only reason this debate even is taking place is that multiple Russ models can be taken per slot to bypass the rule of 3, while marine vehicles generally can't. That has far less to do with this mission pack and more to do with how the marine codex was written.

tneva82 wrote:
Then you need to look harder and think more than 5 seconds

tneva82 wrote:

If you read article it says you get 1. One is less than 2.

tneva82 wrote:
You DID read what this mission pack is intended for didn't you? Right?

Oh wait you talk about fluff so no you didn't so your comment is worthless junk.

Did you start this thread solely to be abrasive and patronising to strangers on the Internet?

**Rogzor87**

What is this "rule of three"? I never seen it in the rulebook

**Rihgu**

Step 2, Muster Armies, from the Grand Tournament book

With the exception of units with the Troops or Dedicated Transport Battlefield Roles, or units that are added to a player’s army during the battle, each player can only include the same datasheet in their army 2 times (if they are playing an Incursion battle) or 3 times (if they are playing a Strike Force battle).

**JNAProductions**

Rogzor87 wrote:
What is this "rule of three"? I never seen it in the rulebook

It's a Matched Play rule-I think it's in one of the online docs.

Basically, you can't take more than three copies of any datasheet, unless it's a Troop or Dedicated Transport.

**tneva82**

It's in main rulebook matched play rules as well. In nephilim there's also rule of 2 for 1k games

**Daedalus81**

EightFoldPath wrote:
When I say an alpha strike has 7 CP that is because you start with 6 then get a 7th as soon as your alpha strike first turn begins.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
What are folk thinking of using this FOC to field?

Not all of these will be good and I'll be waiting to see how the new points shake out.Mainly theoretical lists based on what I've played against in tournaments or with. But they all tend to go with a theme of "I really hope you had a plan for killing this one specific datasheet" and should hopefully give an idea of what you might expect to see.

Dark Angels - 3 Ravenwing Talonmasters, Chief Primaris Apothecary, 30 Deathwing Terminators is 1,780 pts, starts with 6 CP. Quite a few other factions can do the 90 wounds of terminators with healing, such as...

Thousand Sons - 3 Exalted Sorcerers, 3 Sorcerers, 30 Scarab Occult is 1,860 pts, starts with 6 CP.

Thousand Sons - 3 Exalted Sorcerers, 3 Sorcerers, 12x5 Rubric Marines is 1,830 pts, starts with 6 CP. A healthy 24 casts per turn to start, with just 39 cabal points to buff up your spells - sadly you need 52 to use all the buffs every turn, so still some decisions required.

Eldar - 2 Farseer Skyrunners, Baharroth, Karandras, 2x10 Dire Avengers, 2x5 Howling Banshees, 2x5 Striking Scorpions, 2 x Warlock Skyrunners, 2x10 Swooping Hawks is 1,710 pts, starts with 6 CP. 1 free FA slot left.

Ultramarines - Roboute Guilliman, Master Primaris Techmarine, 3 Redemptor Dreads, 3 Contemptor Dreads is 1,570 points, starts with 6 CP. Some of the dreads can start in reserves for free so they always get a round of shooting when they come in. I think if Space Marines stay weak/over-costed there will be better versions of this elsewhere.

Tau - 2 Commanders, 2x5 Crisis, 2 Stormsurge is about 1,850 pts, starts with 5 CP. Stormsurges can start in reserves for free so they always get a round of shooting when they come in.

Votann - 1 Forge-master, 3x6 Hernkyn Pioneers, 3 Land Fortresses, 1,810 pts, starts with 6 CP. Land Fortresses can start in reserves for free so they always get a round of shooting when they come in.

Death Guard - 1 Lord of Contagion, 12x5 Plague Marines, 3x3 Deathshroud, 1,830 pts, starts with 6CP.

Death Guard - 1 Lord of Contagion, 8x20 Poxwalkers, 2x5 Plague Marines, 3x5 Possessed, 3x3 Deathshroud, 1,940 pts, starts with 6CP. Running out of deployment zone, free reserves is here to save you. This is maybe just a discount version of the next list...

Dark Eldar - 1 Haemonculus, 11x20 Wracks, 1x10 Wracks, 1,998 pts, starts with 6 CP. 230 wounds of tanky fun. Running out of deployment zone, free reserves is here to save you.

I can't speak on all of these but the Thousand Sons lists are caricatures.

30 Scarabs don't kill much and without AoC I don't think they'll stay standing as easily. Not to mention it'd be really difficult to hold your own objectives.

60 Rubrics sounds fun, but Smite is 18" with an escalating cost. Spells like Glamor or Weaver would be totally irrelevant as there are no worthwhile units to use them on. Your entire pool of spells would be the witchfires of which don't even cover the casts from 6 sorcerers. You could likely be able to cast Smite on 5 through 9 reliably. Anything after that is lost.

**tneva82**

Guess you don't put units on objectives then