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EightFoldPath wrote:
It opens up what were previously Vanguard or Outrider detachment based armies to have a 7 CP first turn alpha strike (where the 7 CP is spent on a combo of traits, relics and first turn strategems).

No CP tax, no points tax, just bring exactly 2,000 points of killer with no filler.

I'm working on the assumption that it's still 6cp at the start given they're leaving the pay for WLT and relic rules.

Which again, is the same lists as now but with +3cp more or with a couple hundred points moved around.

 Ravajaxe wrote:
You needed at least 3 troops though, and a plan to make something out of them. which is not the case anymore.

You almost always need something cheap and/or durable on back objectives as well as speaders to keep deepstrikes off. People thinking they can dump troops and not suffer against Blood Angels or free strategic reserves are smoking something.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Ravajaxe wrote:
You needed at least 3 troops though, and a plan to make something out of them. which is not the case anymore.

You almost always need something cheap and/or durable on back objectives as well as speaders to keep deepstrikes off. People thinking they can dump troops and not suffer against Blood Angels or free strategic reserves are smoking something.

I dunno, some factions (e.g. Necrons and Orks, off the top of my head) have units that can do this job in other slots that their Troops were arguably *already* struggling to compete with for space in armies, and I can see this new Detachment further exacerbating that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Like, I *want* to take Warriors and Boyz, and I probably still will as I'm not much of a competitively-minded player, but it'd be nice to be able to do so without getting the sense I'm actively mugging myself off at the army-building stage.

More CP does add up.
But I think the balance issues are less likely to be in a more open FOC, than in the re-introduction of Battle Brothers. Although we'd need to know the full details to be sure.

And I guess one could argue that's a case of poor internal balance in the Ork/Necron Codices, but in a game with as many overlapping moving parts as 40K, it seems to me it would be sensible to try and have those parts interact in a way that minimises their relative specific flaws, rather than exacerbating them.

To introduce a different flavour of chat?

What are folk thinking of using this FOC to field?

I’m immediately thinking I could field my Fury of the Ancients Heresy list. With less fun weapons than Heresy allows of course.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
To introduce a different flavour of chat?

What are folk thinking of using this FOC to field?

I’m immediately thinking I could field my Fury of the Ancients Heresy list. With less fun weapons than Heresy allows of course.

In a bid to see some sort of silver lining in this, it does seem to open up my plan for doing an Ork Army built using the Ere We Go-era army composition rules (e.g. you need to bring a Painboy to take any Dreadnoughts etc., which is a bit easier thanks to those additional Elite Character slots) and it gives me a bit of a push to get my Morkanaut painted.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
What are folk thinking of using this FOC to field?

All the Wraith Constructs!

 Nazrak wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
To introduce a different flavour of chat?

What are folk thinking of using this FOC to field?

I’m immediately thinking I could field my Fury of the Ancients Heresy list. With less fun weapons than Heresy allows of course.

In a bid to see some sort of silver lining in this, it does seem to open up my plan for doing an Ork Army built using the Ere We Go-era army composition rules (e.g. you need to bring a Painboy to take any Dreadnoughts etc., which is a bit easier thanks to those additional Elite Character slots) and it gives me a bit of a push to get my Morkanaut painted.

Said army will obviously get immediately stomped by someone fielding an all-Jump-Pack-Bastards Blood Angels list and insisting it's fluffy.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
To introduce a different flavour of chat?

What are folk thinking of using this FOC to field?

I’m immediately thinking I could field my Fury of the Ancients Heresy list. With less fun weapons than Heresy allows of course.

As in dreadnoughts? With 6 elite slots max dreadnought list is one thing harder going from hard to impossible for loal marines to do all dreadnought list.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
To introduce a different flavour of chat?

What are folk thinking of using this FOC to field?

I had four lists that came to mind that I wanted to go back to working on:
GSC Aberrant horde
GSC Patriarch and stealers horde
Votann Hearthguard strikeforce
Necron Destroyers

All of the above were more or less doable under the current rules, but now I can reduce the points used on troops or skip them all together. Since I can care-less about how an army performs, but enjoy organized play, I can just build what interests me and be able to play.

tneva82 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
To introduce a different flavour of chat?

What are folk thinking of using this FOC to field?

I’m immediately thinking I could field my Fury of the Ancients Heresy list. With less fun weapons than Heresy allows of course.

As in dreadnoughts? With 6 elite slots max dreadnought list is one thing harder going from hard to impossible for loal marines to do all dreadnought list.

Whats stopping you taking two Arks of Omen detachments?

 dan2026 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
To introduce a different flavour of chat?

What are folk thinking of using this FOC to field?

I’m immediately thinking I could field my Fury of the Ancients Heresy list. With less fun weapons than Heresy allows of course.

As in dreadnoughts? With 6 elite slots max dreadnought list is one thing harder going from hard to impossible for loal marines to do all dreadnought list.

Whats stopping you taking two Arks of Omen detachments?

Oh yikes, *something* hopefully, or it's gonna be worse than I thought.

 dan2026 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
To introduce a different flavour of chat?

What are folk thinking of using this FOC to field?

I’m immediately thinking I could field my Fury of the Ancients Heresy list. With less fun weapons than Heresy allows of course.

As in dreadnoughts? With 6 elite slots max dreadnought list is one thing harder going from hard to impossible for loal marines to do all dreadnought list.

Whats stopping you taking two Arks of Omen detachments?

Probably the rules in that book - the article does say "Many powerful leaders can only be taken once per Detachment – and with only the one Arks of Omen Detachment available, you’d be unable to take more. "

 Nazrak wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
To introduce a different flavour of chat?

What are folk thinking of using this FOC to field?

I’m immediately thinking I could field my Fury of the Ancients Heresy list. With less fun weapons than Heresy allows of course.

In a bid to see some sort of silver lining in this, it does seem to open up my plan for doing an Ork Army built using the Ere We Go-era army composition rules (e.g. you need to bring a Painboy to take any Dreadnoughts etc., which is a bit easier thanks to those additional Elite Character slots) and it gives me a bit of a push to get my Morkanaut painted.

This will open up some thematic lists I've wanted to run for a while but the CP cost was too high for them to work. Ork walkerz with an 'orkanaut sounds like fun, especially now single LoWs benefit from clan traits. Also my oops-all-carnifexes list will finally see the table.

nekooni wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
To introduce a different flavour of chat?

What are folk thinking of using this FOC to field?

I’m immediately thinking I could field my Fury of the Ancients Heresy list. With less fun weapons than Heresy allows of course.

As in dreadnoughts? With 6 elite slots max dreadnought list is one thing harder going from hard to impossible for loal marines to do all dreadnought list.

Whats stopping you taking two Arks of Omen detachments?

Probably the rules in that book - the article does say "Many powerful leaders can only be taken once per Detachment – and with only the one Arks of Omen Detachment available, you’d be unable to take more. "

I wondering if these tea leaves are leading to simple army construction rules for the Arks of Omen Season: Your army consist of one Arks of Omen detachment and one optional Allied Detachment?

 dan2026 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
To introduce a different flavour of chat?

What are folk thinking of using this FOC to field?

I’m immediately thinking I could field my Fury of the Ancients Heresy list. With less fun weapons than Heresy allows of course.

As in dreadnoughts? With 6 elite slots max dreadnought list is one thing harder going from hard to impossible for loal marines to do all dreadnought list.

Whats stopping you taking two Arks of Omen detachments?

If you read article it says you get 1. One is less than 2.

And the way battle brother rule is shown indicates other det's not possible as daemons have no need for that...unless other detachments aren't available.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
To introduce a different flavour of chat?

What are folk thinking of using this FOC to field?

I’m immediately thinking I could field my Fury of the Ancients Heresy list. With less fun weapons than Heresy allows of course.

I've got two lists planned, one is essentially a 9th ed version of the Daemonhunters army, and the other is a Necron list with lots of Immortals, Warriors, Praetorians and Lychguard arranged in Ranked Tercio formations.

I was thinking an interesting army would would be a fast attack army with bikes and speeders. With 6 slots thats a lot of fast moving vehicles. For heft just add in some contemptor dreads add an HQ or 2 and viola.

I guess this detachment means that some faction-specific fortifications will now be able to get sub-faction traits.
For example the tyranid sporocyst. Previously they couldn't get hive fleet traits due to being in fortification network detachments.

Similar thing with stuff like the tyranid hierophant bio-titan and harridan. Where it wasn't possible to fit 3 of them in a super-heavy detachment in a 2k point game, leading to them not getting hive fleet traits. It's a very minor buff in most cases, but the idea of an obsec bio-titan amuses me.

Arson Fire wrote:
the idea of an obsec bio-titan amuses me.

There's also now a couple of methods to get either heroic intervention or a 9" consolidate range on a hierophant, which amuses me.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
What are folk thinking of using this FOC to field?

All the Wraith Constructs!

Personally, an all Canoptek list.

I honestly liked it better when they had the classic forceorg chart that didn't change for several editions. I felt it gave a nice margin between restriction and freedom, and was coupled with certain models as the warlord making non-troop stuff troops. It felt fun and thematic.

The AoS method works too, if less fun. You need a warlord and 3 troop choices (for 2k) after that there are limitations on certain kinds of models (6 leaders, 4 behemoth, 4 artillery, 3 endless spells) but otherwise the roster can be chosen from freely--and a solid majority of units across armies fall into this 'unclassified' category. Seems like they are moving 40k towards this.

Dudeface wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Then you need to look harder and think more than 5 seconds

Please provide an example of a broken list this FOC provides that the existing structure isn't currently capable of. Hint, you won't find one, you'll just find they have 3cp more, or maybe 100 points spent differently.

3 CP and 100 pts additional are actually quite usefull for GSC nvm 12 troopslots.
I can already forsee 12x5 acolythes bullying quite a few armies. Or 6 x5 acolythes and a swath of neophytes.

drbored wrote:
I'm all for more freedom for building your army, but I find it hilarious that it feels like there's more paragraphs of rules that ultimately say 'take more of what you want!'

GW has learned well that acceptance is in the presentation. Notable examples are 7th ed Unbound, which was not generally considered a valid way of army building, and the release version of AoS that took only a token effort to put on the road to success. Presenting "do whatever, we don't care" with a lot of text and a chart for better visualization creates the illusion of structure and implies some thought went into creating the absence of rules restrictions and it therefore has merit. That's literally all it takes for a lot of people to accept something they would otherwise decry as lacking or unbalanced.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Then you need to look harder and think more than 5 seconds

Please provide an example of a broken list this FOC provides that the existing structure isn't currently capable of. Hint, you won't find one, you'll just find they have 3cp more, or maybe 100 points spent differently.

3 CP and 100 pts additional are actually quite usefull for GSC nvm 12 troopslots.
I can already forsee 12x5 acolythes bullying quite a few armies. Or 6 x5 acolythes and a swath of neophytes.

Honestly I think the most notable skew lists with AoO are going to be troops spam. The new detachment doesn't really open up much more use of Elite or HS slots than before, all it's really doing is taking away the CP tax and a token points value in troops. Even then very few effective lists will forgo troops entirely.

However a big change is the ability to take 12 troop slots without the requirement to also fill out all the slots and/or CP needed for a brigade or double battallion. For factions with decent troops liek GSC (and likely World Eaters) that's going to have a big impact.

When I say an alpha strike has 7 CP that is because you start with 6 then get a 7th as soon as your alpha strike first turn begins.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
What are folk thinking of using this FOC to field?

Not all of these will be good and I'll be waiting to see how the new points shake out.Mainly theoretical lists based on what I've played against in tournaments or with. But they all tend to go with a theme of "I really hope you had a plan for killing this one specific datasheet" and should hopefully give an idea of what you might expect to see.

Dark Angels - 3 Ravenwing Talonmasters, Chief Primaris Apothecary, 30 Deathwing Terminators is 1,780 pts, starts with 6 CP. Quite a few other factions can do the 90 wounds of terminators with healing, such as...

Thousand Sons - 3 Exalted Sorcerers, 3 Sorcerers, 30 Scarab Occult is 1,860 pts, starts with 6 CP.

Thousand Sons - 3 Exalted Sorcerers, 3 Sorcerers, 12x5 Rubric Marines is 1,830 pts, starts with 6 CP. A healthy 24 casts per turn to start, with just 39 cabal points to buff up your spells - sadly you need 52 to use all the buffs every turn, so still some decisions required.

Eldar - 2 Farseer Skyrunners, Baharroth, Karandras, 2x10 Dire Avengers, 2x5 Howling Banshees, 2x5 Striking Scorpions, 2 x Warlock Skyrunners, 2x10 Swooping Hawks is 1,710 pts, starts with 6 CP. 1 free FA slot left.

Ultramarines - Roboute Guilliman, Master Primaris Techmarine, 3 Redemptor Dreads, 3 Contemptor Dreads is 1,570 points, starts with 6 CP. Some of the dreads can start in reserves for free so they always get a round of shooting when they come in. I think if Space Marines stay weak/over-costed there will be better versions of this elsewhere.

Tau - 2 Commanders, 2x5 Crisis, 2 Stormsurge is about 1,850 pts, starts with 5 CP. Stormsurges can start in reserves for free so they always get a round of shooting when they come in.

Votann - 1 Forge-master, 3x6 Hernkyn Pioneers, 3 Land Fortresses, 1,810 pts, starts with 6 CP. Land Fortresses can start in reserves for free so they always get a round of shooting when they come in.

Death Guard - 1 Lord of Contagion, 12x5 Plague Marines, 3x3 Deathshroud, 1,830 pts, starts with 6CP.

Death Guard - 1 Lord of Contagion, 8x20 Poxwalkers, 2x5 Plague Marines, 3x5 Possessed, 3x3 Deathshroud, 1,940 pts, starts with 6CP. Running out of deployment zone, free reserves is here to save you. This is maybe just a discount version of the next list...

Dark Eldar - 1 Haemonculus, 11x20 Wracks, 1x10 Wracks, 1,998 pts, starts with 6 CP. 230 wounds of tanky fun. Running out of deployment zone, free reserves is here to save you.

 xttz wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Then you need to look harder and think more than 5 seconds

Please provide an example of a broken list this FOC provides that the existing structure isn't currently capable of. Hint, you won't find one, you'll just find they have 3cp more, or maybe 100 points spent differently.

3 CP and 100 pts additional are actually quite usefull for GSC nvm 12 troopslots.
I can already forsee 12x5 acolythes bullying quite a few armies. Or 6 x5 acolythes and a swath of neophytes.

Honestly I think the most notable skew lists with AoO are going to be troops spam. The new detachment doesn't really open up much more use of Elite or HS slots than before, all it's really doing is taking away the CP tax and a token points value in troops. Even then very few effective lists will forgo troops entirely.

However a big change is the ability to take 12 troop slots without the requirement to also fill out all the slots and/or CP needed for a brigade or double battallion. For factions with decent troops liek GSC (and likely World Eaters) that's going to have a big impact.

indeed, and if the GSC codex has one really good aspect, than it is it's troop slot. Whereas before you may saw 15 suicide acolythes and 30 neophytes now you will probably see 30 and 60, and those 30 will hurt quite a bit.

.

What is even the point in having a Force Organisation Chart anymore?

I think this is the sales team basically getting the rules team to remove all hurdles to entry.

As the decades roll on, the more I miss 3rd edition when it was just the lists in the rule book. Those were fun times.