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If he is souping and you are not, you are at a disadvantage no matter what.

Take CWE Supreme command for Doom/Jinx and you wont have as much as a problem. A couple units of Tlaos/Scourges with HWB, on a Doomed Knight will take it down much much easier, when you are re-roll 10-15 dice and each 4+/6+ is MW's thats so much better.

Otherwise, i would just swarm the board with PoF, 4++/6+++ will slow him down really fast, dont worry about killing the 1-2 Knights and kill everything else, winning on objectives.

There is a reason why everyone is hoping against the odds that knights get a massive nerfing. You can have a decent shot against them with luck or the right mission, but trying to go toe to toe requires some heavy tailoring.

Going pure DE, I'd suggest lots of our fliers. They can block the knights movement and they are impossible to assault. Next wave I'd block with a few venoms, all while camping objectives hopefully behind cover if you dropped them in the correct spots. Beyond that it's time to clench your ass and hope they can't table you in time.

 vipoid wrote:
A couple of questions, guys:

Firstly, any advice for facing Knights with pure DE (no Eldar/Harlequin allies)?

I faced a knight list recently with 2 large knights, 4 (IIRC) of the smaller knights and a few guardsmen. It just seemed like I was completely outclassed on every front. They easily outgunned me, they're a hell of a lot more durable, and even melee seems virtually useless with most units due to their catastrophic Overwatch. I didn't even feel like I had a speed advantage, given that his smaller knights are as fast as Raiders but vastly more durable. And this is on top of all my poison weapons being basically worthless against everything but the guardsmen.

Any suggestions for fighting them?


Secondly, not really related to tactics but I recently came across a conversion that I'd all but forgotten about:

Spoiler:

Any thoughts on how to best to represent this model as an HQs?

I've done okay against IK with the HWB Scourges, Groteques bomb and massed Taloi.

As for the mini above? Archon definitely.

 Red Corsair wrote:
There is a reason why everyone is hoping against the odds that knights get a massive nerfing. You can have a decent shot against them with luck or the right mission, but trying to go toe to toe requires some heavy tailoring.

Going pure DE, I'd suggest lots of our fliers. They can block the knights movement and they are impossible to assault. Next wave I'd block with a few venoms, all while camping objectives hopefully behind cover if you dropped them in the correct spots. Beyond that it's time to clench your ass and hope they can't table you in time.

IMO Knights are perfectly balance now their CP's are upped, the problem is soup as always.


For all armies, you either Kill the knights, or kill everything else. If you every find yourself no doing enough to the knight, then dont fight them and kill all other units.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
For all armies, you either Kill the knights, or kill everything else. If you every find yourself no doing enough to the knight, then dont fight them and kill all other units.

Sorry but how does that stop the Knights from just wiping your army off the table?

 vipoid wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
For all armies, you either Kill the knights, or kill everything else. If you every find yourself no doing enough to the knight, then dont fight them and kill all other units.

Sorry but how does that stop the Knights from just wiping your army off the table?

Yes Ignore the knights, you need to kill the Armigers, (You said he has 4), they are just 12w 3+/5++ super easy to kill, kill those 4 as fast as you can, and a lot of his fire power is gone.

Depending on what large knights they are (other than Castellan) the Armigers are more scary to DE, 2D3 per gun (2 guns each) (16D3) S7 -1 3D, takes on average 32 shots, this is god awful for DE. That is on average 24 wounds vs Raiders/Ravagers with Black Heart.

So... how do we beat orks? Lootas out of LoS behind a Grot shield especially...

Budzerker wrote:
So... how do we beat orks? Lootas out of LoS behind a Grot shield especially...

Lootas have no way to go back out of sight after shooting so just vect grot shield, but still orks are a really bad matchup for almost all eldar right not

Budzerker wrote:
So... how do we beat orks? Lootas out of LoS behind a Grot shield especially...

It's not a way-to-go for the orks, that combo. We're talking about 425 points of lootas plus 90ish of gretchins and 5+ CPs invested in just a couple of turns. Even with the best rolling those buffed 25 lootas don't have the math to 1-shot a knight.

So yeah, massive amount of S7 hurts, but DE are mobile and have a lot of dakka, you just need to remove the gretchins in key positions and the ork players can't use the stratagem to protect the lootas. Our 3 ravagers buffed by a black heart archon are basically as deadly for the same price while being more hard to kill and don't require CPs to work.

If you go first the opponent can't mob up the lootas, so no grot shield to both squads.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
For all armies, you either Kill the knights, or kill everything else. If you every find yourself no doing enough to the knight, then dont fight them and kill all other units.

Sorry but how does that stop the Knights from just wiping your army off the table?

Yes Ignore the knights, you need to kill the Armigers, (You said he has 4), they are just 12w 3+/5++ super easy to kill, kill those 4 as fast as you can, and a lot of his fire power is gone.

Depending on what large knights they are (other than Castellan) the Armigers are more scary to DE, 2D3 per gun (2 guns each) (16D3) S7 -1 3D, takes on average 32 shots, this is god awful for DE. That is on average 24 wounds vs Raiders/Ravagers with Black Heart.

It's not easy to deal with a pure knights list. TAC knights against TAC drukhari usually ends with drukhari shot off the board. You need to tailor a lot in order to compete with them, basically avoiding all the anti infantry tools.

 Blackie wrote:

Budzerker wrote:
So... how do we beat orks? Lootas out of LoS behind a Grot shield especially...

It's not a way-to-go for the orks, that combo. We're talking about 425 points of lootas plus 90ish of gretchins and 5+ CPs invested in just a couple of turns. Even with the best rolling those buffed 25 lootas don't have the math to 1-shot a knight.

That's the combo that has appeared in tournaments including tournament win so far...I think you are dismissing power. And orks will have like 70+ grots anyway to ensure 18 CP anyway.

So yeah, massive amount of S7 hurts, but DE are mobile and have a lot of dakka, you just need to remove the gretchins in key positions and the ork players can't use the stratagem to protect the lootas. Our 3 ravagers buffed by a black heart archon are basically as deadly for the same price while being more hard to kill and don't require CPs to work.

There's going to be about 30 grots minimum if not more around and you need to clear them all. Any grot that's left is still used for shield. More likely solution is nullify the strategem with 4CP.

If you go first the opponent can't mob up the lootas, so no grot shield to both squads.

At which point they are somewhere out of LOS. The lootas can essentially move and shoot without penalty so da jump + LOS block terrain. Albeit if you are playing in planet bowling ball that helps but that's pretty lousy board to play at.

tneva82 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Budzerker wrote:
So... how do we beat orks? Lootas out of LoS behind a Grot shield especially...

It's not a way-to-go for the orks, that combo. We're talking about 425 points of lootas plus 90ish of gretchins and 5+ CPs invested in just a couple of turns. Even with the best rolling those buffed 25 lootas don't have the math to 1-shot a knight.

That's the combo that has appeared in tournaments including tournament win so far...I think you are dismissing power. And orks will have like 70+ grots anyway to ensure 18 CP anyway.

So yeah, massive amount of S7 hurts, but DE are mobile and have a lot of dakka, you just need to remove the gretchins in key positions and the ork players can't use the stratagem to protect the lootas. Our 3 ravagers buffed by a black heart archon are basically as deadly for the same price while being more hard to kill and don't require CPs to work.

There's going to be about 30 grots minimum if not more around and you need to clear them all. Any grot that's left is still used for shield. More likely solution is nullify the strategem with 4CP.

If you go first the opponent can't mob up the lootas, so no grot shield to both squads.

At which point they are somewhere out of LOS. The lootas can essentially move and shoot without penalty so da jump + LOS block terrain. Albeit if you are playing in planet bowling ball that helps but that's pretty lousy board to play at.

Yeah, I've playtested the lootas castle against my army and completely changed my mind, they can be game breaking. Black Heart has basically only Agents of Vect to prevent the Grot Shield stratagem, while the diss cannons melt the lootas that they can see. It can work but not easy. Drukhari need first turn and to see a unit of lootas. Otherwise they can put 3 ravagers in reserve by the stratagem, hide everything else or just give orks some bait units, and let the lootas underperform. Then pop out, Agents of vect and bye bye lootas. Still requires 7 CPs though.

The Ravagers need to prioritise the Tractor Cannons, Smasha Guns and Kustom Mega Cannons. You will have to take on the Lootas or Tankbustas with Splinter Fire. It might be wise to upgrade to 2 Cannon on the Venoms

Venger6 wrote:
The Ravagers need to prioritise the Tractor Cannons, Smasha Guns and Kustom Mega Cannons. You will have to take on the Lootas or Tankbustas with Splinter Fire. It might be wise to upgrade to 2 Cannon on the Venoms

Isn't 2 cannons on venom pretty much standard? Never faced one without! But let's see. After hitting lootas 72 times you would kill 5 lootas(1/5 of squad) without using vect strategem. If you don't kill any they will shoot in average 48 wounds vs de vehicles(except talos which is tougher).

That strategem might be good idea 4cp or not. Orks could be screwed more than it might seem to lose that squad just like that

tneva82 wrote:

Venger6 wrote:
The Ravagers need to prioritise the Tractor Cannons, Smasha Guns and Kustom Mega Cannons. You will have to take on the Lootas or Tankbustas with Splinter Fire. It might be wise to upgrade to 2 Cannon on the Venoms

Isn't 2 cannons on venom pretty much standard? Never faced one without! But let's see. After hitting lootas 72 times you would kill 5 lootas(1/5 of squad) without using vect strategem. If you don't kill any they will shoot in average 48 wounds vs de vehicles(except talos which is tougher).

That strategem might be good idea 4cp or not. Orks could be screwed more than it might seem to lose that squad just like that

Nope, for the most part its a waste of 10pts.

tneva82 wrote:

Venger6 wrote:
The Ravagers need to prioritise the Tractor Cannons, Smasha Guns and Kustom Mega Cannons. You will have to take on the Lootas or Tankbustas with Splinter Fire. It might be wise to upgrade to 2 Cannon on the Venoms

Isn't 2 cannons on venom pretty much standard? Never faced one without! But let's see. After hitting lootas 72 times you would kill 5 lootas(1/5 of squad) without using vect strategem. If you don't kill any they will shoot in average 48 wounds vs de vehicles(except talos which is tougher).

That strategem might be good idea 4cp or not. Orks could be screwed more than it might seem to lose that squad just like that

No, tipycally only Flayed Skulls pay for the upgrade. Poisoned shots against 25 orks are not that good though: you need to get in rapid fire range with multiple vehicels, wound on 4s and let the lootas use their 6+ save, even 5+ if they are in cover (difficult with that many bodies but not impossible) and you're not Flayed Skull.

Fire the blasters and the void lances against mek gunz. If the ork player has the lootas castle he won't probably have tons of mek gunz anyway, he'll likely have a green tide.

I played a few games with orks against drukhari using that 25 lootas combo. I let a friend use my army since I'm the only competitive pure drukhari player here.

Game A: orks got first turn. 10 Lootas are deployed with a good visual, 15 are out of line of sight. Weirdboy da jump them, they mob up and get more dakka. Agent of vect will be used later to avoid showing off. Drukhari ravagers were also reserved, venoms hidden but raider, talos and one venom took a lot of shots. The average should be 27 autocannon hits. Drukhari turn 1 ravagers appear, aimed at the lootas along with 2 raiders, Agents of Vect to prevent grot shields and basically 75% of the lootas died. With a farseer you may kill the entire squad.

Game B: drukhari went first. 15 lootas out of line of sight as always, but 10 were valid targets since there wasn't terrain enough to hide them too. Those 10 are easily killed by the drukhari thanks to diss cannons and Agents of Vect. Next turn 15 lootas pop up, get more dakka and showing off causing a lot of damage. The average should be around 15 autocannon hits. Turn 2 lootas were dead, but another Agents of Vect was necessary. In game A drukhari managed to handle the lootas better.

Another way to counter those lootas, could be tying them with red grief bikes: those grots need to be closer to the enemy shooter to be shields and the jetbkies are super fast and can fly over units. The ork player can bring a huge amount of gretchins, but in my game there were 60 of them and assault was possible. Red grief outrider was not part of the list though.

In both games my lootas were focussed down but I easily won the game. Lootas soaked a lot of firepower letting the 90 evil sunz boyz do their work. I forgot to mention that I also had a KFF bubble around the lootas, to give them a 5+ invuln. I didn't have any mek gunz in the list but I know that Traktors and Smashas are also extremely painful for drukhari and TAC enough to be taken in significant numbers as an alternative to the lootas combo of course since pure shooting ork gunlines don't really work.

If dukhari weren't black heart they would have been tabled though since getting an average of 54 autocannon hits per turn means screwing the army. Agents of vect costing 4CP is not a real issue, even using it two times. My drukhari lists always have 13 CPs + 0-2 thanks to the haemy's trait and crafting additional CPs on 6s. I usually use my CPs to re-roll a damage bad roll for lances and blasters and to heal coven monsters, other than Agents of Vect.

Yep sounds like agents of vect is pretty good hard counter for the loota bomb negating their cover(btw I disagree about that bike idea. Grots can be used to surround whole unit 360 degree without room to position in between. One squad for that and even if you go somewhere there's grots from that direction as well. Every grot doesn't need to be closer. Just 1 from unit and you are safe) and also show off. As the loota bomb relies on the strategems negating them is big deal. Without more dakka venom's are twice as hard, show off halves firepower and without grot screen they are just paper bags.

Eldar soup is one big reason why orks are unlikely to be super dominating. They rely on strategems so much ability to negate key one screws army big time.

Funny how I always run into those venoms of lotsa lotsa shots ending in 300+ models being wiped off without too much trouble and immune to assaults leaving only shooting as option. Say something about bad luck with pairings.

Oh and btw I would say average is actually more than 54 in practice. That's what they get if they shoot average 2 shots per loota. Decent enough assumption with d3 shot but ork player can always CP reroll one. Albeit not for both if they roll 1 for both salvos first dice but assuming they always use CP(not always. 2 and 3 and 3 and 3 are also possible) it ends up averaging 58 shots per turn(using it ends up increasing average from 2 to 2.3333 shots per loota). Just tiny nitpick. And of course depending on situation he might not CP reroll that 1. Still that's loads of autocannon hits so def something to have plan. DE is in good place they have strategem that gives access to easy delete so there's that. If you don't have that and expect to play orks worth thinking how to deal with that unit as it's likely going to be rather popular.

After having done some maths to decide what I shall buy next (still I'll wait after CA any way) I'm decided to buy Scourges. But could someone tell me how many weapons are there in the Scourge kit ? I'd need 4 Haywire, 4 Shredders and 4 Splinter Cannons.

Looking at the sprues on webstore don't see much in form of duplications so 1 of each...

Unfortunately there's one of each. But blasters, splinter cannons, dark lances and shredders can be taken from the kabalite warriors boxes, it's haywire blasters and heat lances that are more difficult to find.

Very easy to convert if you have the bitz though, just cut the tip of splinter cannons and add the barrels from haywire and heat lances from the talos and reavers kits.

If you need 4 of each I assume you want 3 boxes of scourges so you'll have 3 of each. Just add a shredder and two splinter cannons from the kabalites, one of them converted to be a haywire cannon.

Yes I can get the Blasters, shredders and Splinter cannons from the Kabalites, although I plan on having at least 3 10-men squads of Kabs in a Raider with a Splinter Cannon. I'll just ask around my LGS for other bits.

Thanks !

Hello evil elves..

Quick question, if you had a fairly new player who wanted to get their first foray in Drukhari for xmas, they already have a couple of thousand points of regular eldar.

What would you get them?

 gkos wrote:
Hello evil elves..

Quick question, if you had a fairly new player who wanted to get their first foray in Drukhari for xmas, they already have a couple of thousand points of regular eldar.

What would you get them?

Hard to say. The best stuff to support an Eldar Army is different from what I would suggest getting someone for starting Drukhari. Especially with CA around the corner.

 gkos wrote:
Hello evil elves..

Quick question, if you had a fairly new player who wanted to get their first foray in Drukhari for xmas, they already have a couple of thousand points of regular eldar.

What would you get them?

You can't really go wrong with either of the Start Collecting boxes - I'd suggest the older one with Kabal units in, if you can find it anywhere.

just want some general ideas for cool units, I can see the old Start Collecting box is quite expensive compared to the new one!

Any idea if he's more interested in Kabals, Cults or Covens? Drukhari are basically 3 different army books smashed into one.
For Kabals get a Ravager or Warriors.
For Cult, get the start collecting box.
For Covens, get a Talos.

Or you could get him a box of Scourges, they are 'unafiliated', so you can use them in any detatchment.

Hi Creeping,

No, I don't know if he has any particular preference, he just wants to add some variety to his eldar force, he mostly plays against necrons and BA (me).

Will probably go with the getting started box

Cheers

Ian

Hi all,

So i have had a hiatus for the past year almost and wondered what books I need to make sure I dont miss any rules. I got out right before last years Chapter Approved.

Also wondered if Grotesques are useable and if so do you throw 3 in a raider? 4?

How are Reavers? I have 24 of them and wondered if 6 with 2 blasters still work? I tried a practice game and was extremely underwhelmed by them.

Thanks!

I'm not sure how much (if anything) of the previous CA will be necessary after the current one (so I don't know whether you'd need to buy the old one or not).

Then again, it seems like the new CA has bugger-all for us anyway.

Outside of CA, there's the Rulebook, the DE Codex and the Xenos Index (which has a couple of units and weapons that you're still allowed to use but which weren't included in the codex.)

Incognito15 wrote:

Also wondered if Grotesques are useable and if so do you throw 3 in a raider? 4?

They're definitely usable, but I think most people just have ~10 of them and run them up the board.

If you do put them in transports, make sure to also add a Lhamaean or something (so that you've got a cheap model to take the fall if the vehicle is destroyed).

Incognito15 wrote:

How are Reavers? I have 24 of them and wondered if 6 with 2 blasters still work? I tried a practice game and was extremely underwhelmed by them.

Not a fan of them, myself. They're probably the best Wych Cult units but that's not saying a whole lot.

- Blasters a good but Reavers don't seem like particularly efficient platforms for them. I mean, if I was planning to include Reavers, then I'd take Blasters on them. But I wouldn't see Blasters as a reason to take Reavers in the first place, if you see what I mean.

- They seem pretty fragile. T4 with a 4+/6+++ isn't a lot to write home about. Especially when there's no longer an equivalent of Jink.

- Their combat stats are weak. A Couple of S4 AP-1 attacks apiece isn't anything spectacular at the best of times and even less so for a glass-cannon unit. What's more, because those attacks are at a fixed strength, it means they can't benefit from the +1S combat drug or the +1S Cult trait. Now, this might not be as much of an issue if we could put a character with them. But, of course, we're not allowed to put characters on anything. So you can't just have a Succubus riding around on a jetbike with them (not that her own damage is great these days).

- Their only real purpose seems to be to tie up units in combat. However, this hinges on the opponent having a lot of points of units that are susceptible to being tied up in combat, whilst also being sufficiently pathetic so as to not simply kill the Reavers in Overwatch or in melee. In my experience, virtually every unit that I might actually want to tie up for a turn or two is either outright immune (stuff that can just walk out of combat with no penalties) or else simply vaporises the Reavers in Overwatch or in melee before the opponent's turn (leaving them free to move and shoot normally, whilst I've lost a Reaver squad to no benefit).

You're free to try them yourself and see if you have better luck, but I've basically shelved mine.

Reavers are decents in min squads as fast objective grabbers and to tie things in combat. One big squad with max blasters can also work but give it T5 and the -1 to hit by stratagem. Multiple mid sized squads with blasters are not a good option sadly.

The min outrider Red Grief detachment with succubus and 3x3 jetbikes is pretty solid.

Grotesques with 4++ are good on foot. Alternatively spend those 3 CPs for letting them arrive by Webway Portal along with the Haemonculus/Urien.

Thanks guys! One more questions having a hard time answering.

Can I do an Outrider detachment of:

Succubus

5x Scourge
5x Scourge
5x Scourge

Does she gain benefits of whichever cult i decide?

Also I dont see anything limiting it but I can do Kabal of the Black Heart transports and put grotesques in them?

Thanks!