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Made in es
Skilled SDF-1 Pin-Point Barrier Jockey






Bob Lorgar wrote:
It's one of the trashiest of trash units. Never understood why anyone ever wanted one. Ever.


You... do realize that is the point, right? It's a cheapo unit made to defend stuff and leave better stuff available.

For what is worth, it actually is pretty decent used on urban environments. Able to give a headache to much larger opposition. Almost as if it was designed for that or something.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/29 09:02:21


 
   
Made in at
'Jack Scrapper




Austria

Bob Lorgar wrote:
It's one of the trashiest of trash units. Never understood why anyone ever wanted one. Ever.

it is all about the Memes and the price

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Elbows wrote:
Seems awfully wasteful to break down a game this large to simple meta-gaming. We have Warhammer for that. Your argument could be used to ignore, likely 75% of all Battlemechs which are outclassed by various other mechs in their weight class, etc.
I agree. Metagaming with BTech is silly given that there is one faction that is literally, in every way, superior to the others.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/29 10:47:36


   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Halifax

Not morally superior.

   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight





Denver

Nurglitch wrote:
Not morally superior.


Clearly you need to spend more time with the words of the Blessed Blake and those who can help you better appreciate them.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Nurglitch wrote:
Not morally superior.
I was talking about their technology. Clearly.

   
Made in ca
Krazed Killa Kan




Monarchy of TBD

If attitude counts, they certainly are morally superior as well. No one, not even Blakists, can talk down to you like a Jade Falcon!

I am issuing a batchall to your manager, surat!

Klawz-Ramming is a subset of citrus fruit?
Gwar- "And everyone wants a bigger Spleen!"
Mercurial wrote:
I admire your aplomb and instate you as Baron of the Seas and Lord Marshall of Privateers.
Orkeosaurus wrote:Star Trek also said we'd have X-Wings by now. We all see how that prediction turned out.
Orkeosaurus, on homophobia, the nature of homosexuality, and the greatness of George Takei.
English doesn't borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark alleyways and mugs them for loose grammar.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Riverside, CA USA

Urbie was the original meme, before memes even existed. It was always a joke of a unit: ugly and awful but cheap and plentiful and reliable. People love it BECAUSE it's such an ugly duckling that usually dies horribly, but every now and again you get an amazing story of triumph out of one when it sucker punches somebody important with that AC-20.

And again, in-universe it's dirt cheap and mass produced, meant for garrison and city defense where they don't need to move around much and their short range is mitigated by knowing the enemy is coming to them



~Kalamadea (aka ember)
My image gallery 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Halifax

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Nurglitch wrote:
Not morally superior.
I was talking about their technology. Clearly.

I was clearly not making a joke.

   
Made in ie
Regular Dakkanaut




The Urban is fluffed as a milita mech. For the foes it was designed to face - civilians mainly - it is perfect. Mech grade armour and a stonking great gun. Load foam rounds for crowd control.

Cheap as well. You don't need a twenty-five million C-Bill TimberWolf pulling garrison when your heaviest enemy is likely to be a machinegun mounted on a technical.

They are all but useless in a normal mech on mech lance sized game of Battletech. You really need fast movers with an AC-20. A Saladin Assault Hover Tank would be my ideal choice. Two to really freak out an opponent.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/02 07:19:16


 
   
Made in es
Skilled SDF-1 Pin-Point Barrier Jockey






niall78 wrote:
The Urban is fluffed as a milita mech. For the foes it was designed to face - civilians mainly - it is perfect. Mech grade armour and a stonking great gun. Load foam rounds for crowd control.

Cheap as well. You don't need a twenty-five million C-Bill TimberWolf pulling garrison when your heaviest enemy is likely to be a machinegun mounted on a technical.

They are all but useless in a normal mech on mech lance sized game of Battletech. You really need fast movers with an AC-20. A Saladin Assault Hover Tank would be my ideal choice. Two to really freak out an opponent.


The regular urbie (UM-R60) only has an AC/10, not a 20 (that's a variant), plus a small laser for point defense, but it has basically as much armor as a 30 tonner can possibly have... and is a mech, which makes it inherently much more resilient than any similarly sized vehicle. The greater range of the AC/10 also benefits it.

The Saladin is a great hovertank, but even though it's front armor is decent at 17 points, the sides and the rear are paper mache (plus, it's a vehicle). Being a hover vehicle is particularly unsuitable for the Urbie's playing field (that is, packed urban environments) what with the skidding and the like (kind of an accident waiting to happen). Plus, hover vehicles have a really big tendency to lose movement when hit, and the Saladin has no turret, which makes it even less suitable for protracted environments.

Out in the open? Yeah, Saladin's a great little bugger, but I'd argue that for the same in-universe price tag, I'd rather get 10 Savannah Masters than a single Saladin. Those things are murder.

The Urbanmech operational parameters are written in its freaking name. As simple as that.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/07/02 07:58:30


 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Elbows wrote:
Seems awfully wasteful to break down a game this large to simple meta-gaming. We have Warhammer for that. Your argument could be used to ignore, likely 75% of all Battlemechs which are outclassed by various other mechs in their weight class, etc.
I agree. Metagaming with BTech is silly given that there is one faction that is literally, in every way, superior to the others.



that and you can design custom mechs that are better anyway, mechs tend to be designed with some character, and there's a story behind em, sure the CGR-1A1 is crap (although you can make it work by doing exactly what it's name says) but it
s the type of thing you can totally see coming out of military procurement

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Deleted.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/04 23:35:44


 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





one thing battletech has going for it over 40k is the mech design system. I'm not going to claim every mech is perfectly balanced etc as there are definatly some things that are better then others, but over all, everything is based around trade offs. you can't have a mech that is simoultaniously the fastest, most armored, most shooty mech in the game, because the rules don't allow for that...

I think it's also worth noting that the character of battletech players tends not to be WAAC as much as other games, TROs outsell record sheets books, by a huge margin

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/02 10:22:12


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Halifax

So basically that Battletech players are more gentlemanly?

   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

The most gentlemanly.


Even the much-vaunted Clan Omnis have problems. Take the stock standard Thor. It has terrible ammunition loads. It has a gun that can fire two types of ammunition, carries only one ton of it, but has two tons for its missile launcher. Why? Because that's the way it was designed! And that's fine.

I liken 'Mechs to cars quite often. Not every car design works out well. Some really suck. Some are inexplicably popular despite sucking. Some never gain any traction despite being excellent pieces of machinery. It's better that way. Otherwise we'd all be just targ-comp Clan pulse boats and 100-ton Gauszillas, and where's the fun in that?

   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





 Kalamadea wrote:
Urbie was the original meme, before memes even existed. It was always a joke of a unit: ugly and awful but cheap and plentiful and reliable. People love it BECAUSE it's such an ugly duckling that usually dies horribly, but every now and again you get an amazing story of triumph out of one when it sucker punches somebody important with that AC-20.

And again, in-universe it's dirt cheap and mass produced, meant for garrison and city defense where they don't need to move around much and their short range is mitigated by knowing the enemy is coming to them




THEY FILLED ME WITH TRASH

I FILLED THEM WITH LEAD

LMAO
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Halifax

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The most gentlemanly.


Even the much-vaunted Clan Omnis have problems. Take the stock standard Thor. It has terrible ammunition loads. It has a gun that can fire two types of ammunition, carries only one ton of it, but has two tons for its missile launcher. Why? Because that's the way it was designed! And that's fine.

I liken 'Mechs to cars quite often. Not every car design works out well. Some really suck. Some are inexplicably popular despite sucking. Some never gain any traction despite being excellent pieces of machinery. It's better that way. Otherwise we'd all be just targ-comp Clan pulse boats and 100-ton Gauszillas, and where's the fun in that?

I suppose the fun is having a game that incentivizes de-optimization.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/02 18:06:21


   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot




New Jersey, State of Perfection

How does the game incentivize de-optimization?

This ain't no pansy GW Armor, son - Digital Sculpting Plog, Now with Heavy Weapon Platforms!
Sympathy for the Devil, or: The Project Log from Hell

Ma55ter_fett wrote:It reads like the ramblings of a Nigerian lobotomized Shakespeare typed into a cellphone with a very aggressive autocomplete function.
 
   
Made in at
'Jack Scrapper




Austria

It is kind of Semi-Historical, as you usually play in a specific setting and time frame

can optimize everything, but this is not what most players want from the game

imagine it like a WW2 game, were you can optimze, but a 1942 German Afrika Army will not be that

for BT, instead of building the optimized Mech you take those that were available at the chosen timeframe for your chosen nation and this is also a reason why there are so many background books for the different wars/conflicts and years

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/02 19:14:31


Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot




New Jersey, State of Perfection

The existence of period lists notwithstanding, nothing you described isn't also the case with 40k, yet the mindset of the 40k community is very different from the BT community. I, personally, don't think it has anything to do with the game itself or anything you described - Flames of War is another game that fits with everything you described (including timeframes of availability of various units, etc.) yet thats another game that is viewed primarily through a competitive lens by its community.

This ain't no pansy GW Armor, son - Digital Sculpting Plog, Now with Heavy Weapon Platforms!
Sympathy for the Devil, or: The Project Log from Hell

Ma55ter_fett wrote:It reads like the ramblings of a Nigerian lobotomized Shakespeare typed into a cellphone with a very aggressive autocomplete function.
 
   
Made in at
'Jack Scrapper




Austria

for Flames of War, a lot of people here have left with 3rd and play Battlegroup now for that very reason

and also for 40k, a lot of people I know played and builded a specific army for a specific timeframe/scenario

but 40k is not that detailed in the background, and very unbalanced so that if you go for a specific army organisation from the fluff, your opponent need a power gamer list just to have a chance

you never say lets play M41-800 were Primaris did not existed and Ultramarines had not 1st company and chose the army accordingly to that

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot




New Jersey, State of Perfection

 kodos wrote:


you never say lets play M41-800 were Primaris did not existed and Ultramarines had not 1st company and chose the army accordingly to that


Thats not how me and my group play Battletech either. *shrug*

This ain't no pansy GW Armor, son - Digital Sculpting Plog, Now with Heavy Weapon Platforms!
Sympathy for the Devil, or: The Project Log from Hell

Ma55ter_fett wrote:It reads like the ramblings of a Nigerian lobotomized Shakespeare typed into a cellphone with a very aggressive autocomplete function.
 
   
Made in at
'Jack Scrapper




Austria

chaos0xomega wrote:

Thats not how me and my group play Battletech either. *shrug*

how do you do it?
we agree on a year (3025 most of the time), the point system we want to use and sometimes a specific theatre, chose the factions and the mechs

while for 40k, you get in with how many points and which house rules to be used

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot




New Jersey, State of Perfection

We go by general period rather than specific year (thus far either clan invasion or succession wars) and then take whatever we want from within that period - only real rule is don't mix clanner tech and inner sphere tech

This ain't no pansy GW Armor, son - Digital Sculpting Plog, Now with Heavy Weapon Platforms!
Sympathy for the Devil, or: The Project Log from Hell

Ma55ter_fett wrote:It reads like the ramblings of a Nigerian lobotomized Shakespeare typed into a cellphone with a very aggressive autocomplete function.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Fargo, ND USA

Mixing Clanner and IC tech is perfectly viable during Clan Invasion depending on when in that era battles take place, though.

You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot




New Jersey, State of Perfection

Yeah I know Rasalhague Dominion and all that, i'm speaking in more general terms. We're very casual about our approach to the game, not really rivet counters or fluff historians by any means.

This ain't no pansy GW Armor, son - Digital Sculpting Plog, Now with Heavy Weapon Platforms!
Sympathy for the Devil, or: The Project Log from Hell

Ma55ter_fett wrote:It reads like the ramblings of a Nigerian lobotomized Shakespeare typed into a cellphone with a very aggressive autocomplete function.
 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Deleted.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/04 23:34:45


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Fargo, ND USA

chaos0xomega wrote:
Yeah I know Rasalhague Dominion and all that, i'm speaking in more general terms. We're very casual about our approach to the game, not really rivet counters or fluff historians by any means.


Them, but I meant more that by the end of the Invasion, the IC had scavenged enough Clan Tech to reverse engineer or develop equivalents and both sides were regularly using salvaged/captured mechs.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/02 23:18:20


You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in ca
Krazed Killa Kan




Monarchy of TBD

chaos0xomega wrote:
How does the game incentivize de-optimization?


I can't speak for Alpha Strike, but classic Battletech allows for luck to effect the game in a way that does not lend itself to a competitive mindset. If you jumped your mech expertly behind mine, and unleashed all of your weapons- you should kill me- but sometimes you won't. Even more sometimes, my rear mounted medium laser will instakill your pilot, or deal your gyro 3 critical hits the very first time it strikes.

Few people talk about the times they gloriously wore someone down to internals and blew one part after another off until the mech died. But everyone's got a story like the time my Valkyrie landed 2 lrms into the back of a Hunchback, set off it's ammo and turned that thing into a crater, or the time that Hollander blew away that Daishi with one shot!

Even something like the LRMs, they might be worth their weight this shot or not- who knows!

Other than a few Ork weapons that competitive players avoid like the plague, 40k doesn't allow luck that sort of power in its game.

Klawz-Ramming is a subset of citrus fruit?
Gwar- "And everyone wants a bigger Spleen!"
Mercurial wrote:
I admire your aplomb and instate you as Baron of the Seas and Lord Marshall of Privateers.
Orkeosaurus wrote:Star Trek also said we'd have X-Wings by now. We all see how that prediction turned out.
Orkeosaurus, on homophobia, the nature of homosexuality, and the greatness of George Takei.
English doesn't borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark alleyways and mugs them for loose grammar.

 
   
 
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