40k New Edition Summary - 14th June 17: Lord Duncan paints Primaris in Gravis/non-codex SM focus

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**Nightlord1987**

so, if I read the deployment rules correctly, after the alternating unit to unit, the player who finishes deployment first, gets to go first?

So a nerf for MSU type armies, but also more workable with the increase/decrease of some unit prices (like transports).

**changemod**

Red Corsair wrote:
changemod wrote:
Two things then:

Flyers count as destroyed when they leave the board, the sun shark still has to move straight after one pivot of 90 degrees max, and it's minimum move has been bumped to 20 inches.

I see a lot less people taking flyers if that's the norm.

Also, what do you think the new standard points level to play at will be, given people will want to use their model collections in similar amounts as before? I'm thinking 3000.

Yea but there are no firing arcs anymore, so a flyer can just circle the board shooting 360 all game.

You're right, the optimal course of action is to fly in a little square in the middle of the board all game long.

That's kinda goofy.

**Red Corsair**

Ronin_eX wrote:
Desubot wrote:
storm bolters are a little disappointing that its the exact same thing as twin linked bolters. not that its bad or anything 4 shots is 4 shots.

In all honesty. There are three ways this could have gone.

Option 1: The least fluffy way, was to just make storm bolters in to a completely new weapon with completely different stats. This would improve them, but wouldn't jive with 30 years for fluff.

Option 2: Storm bolter becomes a linked bolter, the things wielded by non-terminators and infantry units become combi-bolters (i.e. Rapid Fire 2, but -1 to hit). This would have jived with 2nd Edition's use of them, but everyone that wasn't an Imperial terminator would cry murder at the thought of firing their weapon at a negative (even if at -1 to-hit the thing is still better than the original storm bolter).

Option 3: Stop pretending there is a difference between two linked bolters (bikes), storm bolters, and combi-bolters.

Part of me would have preferred option 1, but I think option 2 is the most logical without causing tactical terminators to spend too many points on shooting and assault. They're still generalists, but not overpaying for shooting while becoming quite a bit better in the CQB environment they're supposed to thrive in. A storm bolter is just a fancy name for a double bolter, and a lot of armies have other versions of the exact same weapon concept. We didn't need 2-3 different sets of rules for two bolters firing at the same time while being close together.

Making them all RF2 was the most elegant solution that also upgunned tactical terminators to a level that wasn't laughable. Deep striking tactical terminators will actually be able to send out a wall of bolts now, possibly acting like the ace-in-the-hole linebreakers they were meant to be.

Except there is a difference, combi bolters inter a -1 to hit penalty for firing both guns while the storm bolter does not.

**kestral**

That does sound pretty sad for a Psychic Army. Three powers plus smite a turn is fine in small games, not so much in large. I find the Kroot lack of a 2nd attack disappointing. Virtually every other close combat unit seems to have been buffed.

**docdoom77**

Red Corsair wrote:
Ronin_eX wrote:
Desubot wrote:
storm bolters are a little disappointing that its the exact same thing as twin linked bolters. not that its bad or anything 4 shots is 4 shots.

In all honesty. There are three ways this could have gone.

Option 1: The least fluffy way, was to just make storm bolters in to a completely new weapon with completely different stats. This would improve them, but wouldn't jive with 30 years for fluff.

Option 2: Storm bolter becomes a linked bolter, the things wielded by non-terminators and infantry units become combi-bolters (i.e. Rapid Fire 2, but -1 to hit). This would have jived with 2nd Edition's use of them, but everyone that wasn't an Imperial terminator would cry murder at the thought of firing their weapon at a negative (even if at -1 to-hit the thing is still better than the original storm bolter).

Option 3: Stop pretending there is a difference between two linked bolters (bikes), storm bolters, and combi-bolters.

Part of me would have preferred option 1, but I think option 2 is the most logical without causing tactical terminators to spend too many points on shooting and assault. They're still generalists, but not overpaying for shooting while becoming quite a bit better in the CQB environment they're supposed to thrive in. A storm bolter is just a fancy name for a double bolter, and a lot of armies have other versions of the exact same weapon concept. We didn't need 2-3 different sets of rules for two bolters firing at the same time while being close together.

Making them all RF2 was the most elegant solution that also upgunned tactical terminators to a level that wasn't laughable. Deep striking tactical terminators will actually be able to send out a wall of bolts now, possibly acting like the ace-in-the-hole linebreakers they were meant to be.

Except there is a difference, combi bolters inter a -1 to hit penalty for firing both guns while the storm bolter does not.

I know that is the general rule for combi-weapons, but have we seen stats for combi-bolters yet? They could just rename them Twin Bolters and they'd be identical to storm bolters.

**Red Corsair**

casvalremdeikun wrote:
Ghaz wrote:
Mantle wrote:
@cordial

There is the primaris rhino listed and there is something in the lord of war section for 400 points but the picture is cut off, could possibly be the redemptor if it's going to be lord of war level.

The Rhino Primaris is the existing command variant found on the same datasheet as the Land Raider Excelsior.

I am curious if the Rhino Primaris and Land Raider Excelsior will be able to be taken separately now. They are listed separately, so it is certainly possible. Which means I might just take the Rhino Primaris alone, rather than both. If I can do that, I might model the Excelsior as just a regular Land Raider.

Of course you can field them separately, stop applying 7th edition restrictions to 8th. Basically you need to relearn the game from scratch.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

kestral wrote:
That does sound pretty sad for a Psychic Army. Three powers plus smite a turn is fine in small games, not so much in large. I find the Kroot lack of a 2nd attack disappointing. Virtually every other close combat unit seems to have been buffed.

Actually no, so far almost every assault unit lost attacks. Death company, berserkers etc etc. Plus kroot now hit everything on a 3+ and are s4 again. In range of a shaper they reroll 1's. I'd say at worst they took a step sideways and personally I think they got better. They are faster, can rapid fire before assaulting, they strike first on the charge... Look at the cost for Christ sake

how much did you really expect?

**luke1705**

changemod wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
changemod wrote:
Two things then:

Flyers count as destroyed when they leave the board, the sun shark still has to move straight after one pivot of 90 degrees max, and it's minimum move has been bumped to 20 inches.

I see a lot less people taking flyers if that's the norm.

Also, what do you think the new standard points level to play at will be, given people will want to use their model collections in similar amounts as before? I'm thinking 3000.

Yea but there are no firing arcs anymore, so a flyer can just circle the board shooting 360 all game.

You're right, the optimal course of action is to fly in a little square in the middle of the board all game long.

That's kinda goofy.

Welcome to 7th edition Tyranids (aka codex Flyrant)

It gets old after a while, but you do have some interesting tactical decisions to pursue, and the fact that you are way more mobile than your opponent usually means that you are dictating to your opponent faster than he can react, unless he is exceptionally crafty and can see multiple turns of your expected moves in advance

**rollawaythestone**

Most close combat weapons will add an attack back to their profile, and most assault units will get to also fire their pistol in close combat. I would say it's a wash while dedicated assault units definitely got a buff from the new weaponry being so powerful.

**Zognob Gorgoff**

Tau lost emp grenades??? Sucky :/

**Red Corsair**

rollawaythestone wrote:
Most close combat weapons will add an attack back to their profile, and most assault units will get to also fire their pistol in close combat. I would say it's a wash while dedicated assault units definitely got a buff from the new weaponry being so powerful.

So far we have only seen 3 weapons that add an additional attack, chainswords, combat blades and choppas.

**Galas**

Yeah, Kroots are chaff. For what they cost they are very good. They can't be competitive meele units compared with other meele units of more meele focused armys. They are good mele units to Tau standarts. They do their job just right.

**Red Corsair**

Galas wrote:
Yeah, Kroots are chaff. For what they cost they are very good. They can't be competitive meele units compared with other meele units of more meele focused armys. They are good mele units to Tau standarts. They do their job just right.

20 kroot and a shaper is cheap and firing 40 s4 shots rerolling 1's followed by another 20 punches in assault at s4 rerolling 1's and hitting everything on a 3+ is nothing to skoff at.

**Rippy**

flakpanzer wrote:
Rippy wrote:
Okay I think OP is up to date, except for Tau leaks.

If I missed anything, or didn't credit you for something you brought in to the thread, let me know via PM!

Thanks to everyone who has been messaging me, been a busy few hours!

Rippy - Awesome job. Thank you.

No worries mate!

**Galas**

Red Corsair wrote:
Galas wrote:
Yeah, Kroots are chaff. For what they cost they are very good. They can't be competitive meele units compared with other meele units of more meele focused armys. They are good mele units to Tau standarts. They do their job just right.

20 kroot and a shaper is cheap and firing 40 s4 shots rerolling 1's followed by another 20 punches in assault at s4 rerolling 1's and hitting everything on a 3+ is nothing to skoff at.

They will die to a breeze tought. But they are naked bird-men, what can you expect?

**Thud**

So.... Are all the relics gone? I haven't seen a sign of any of them.

Kinda sad if they're gone.

**Frankenberry**

So, it's probably already been said...but it's finally worth taking the BA characters! I'm so stoked to finally have a use for Astorath and the Sanguinor (now that he can hide behind his buddies).

Also, with the various buffs, (shame DC aren't fearless though) I think BA's in a good spot.

**SeraphimXIX**

Slave wrote:
I am having a hard time with a STR 6 Carnifex. That would be the lowest it's ever been.

It got a near 50-point reduction, has a faster movement speed, higher toughness and nearly triple the amount of wounds. With crushing claws it's strength 12.

This is shaping up to be the strongest incarnation of Carnifex we've ever seen.

**Slagmar**

McGibs wrote:
I mean... it keeps people from just spamming the same spell over and over again.

Actually its forcing you to cast smite over and over again...I agree it will speed up this phase without every caster being able to cast multiple times but for certain armies (like Daemon Tzeentch) it will get pretty boring with most of your offence just being casting smite...

**MasterSlowPoke**

Thud wrote:
So.... Are all the relics gone? I haven't seen a sign of any of them.

Kinda sad if they're gone.

They'll be back when we get to the Codexes, I'm sure of it.

**casvalremdeikun**

Red Corsair wrote:
casvalremdeikun wrote:
Ghaz wrote:
Mantle wrote:
@cordial

There is the primaris rhino listed and there is something in the lord of war section for 400 points but the picture is cut off, could possibly be the redemptor if it's going to be lord of war level.

The Rhino Primaris is the existing command variant found on the same datasheet as the Land Raider Excelsior.

I am curious if the Rhino Primaris and Land Raider Excelsior will be able to be taken separately now. They are listed separately, so it is certainly possible. Which means I might just take the Rhino Primaris alone, rather than both. If I can do that, I might model the Excelsior as just a regular Land Raider.

Of course you can field them separately, stop applying 7th edition restrictions to 8th. Basically you need to relearn the game from scratch.

I certainly hope you are right. A Primaris Rhino with Pedro Kantor and a Command Squad toting 5 Combi-Plasmas or a Hellblaster Squad with Plasma Incinerators. Especially if he has the ability to give them rerolls of 1s, since I will Overcharge more that way. The Excelsior might be worth it, but probably not over a regular Land Raider.

**SilverAlien**

Slagmar wrote:
McGibs wrote:
I mean... it keeps people from just spamming the same spell over and over again.

Actually its forcing you to cast smite over and over again...I agree it will speed up this phase without every caster being able to cast multiple times but for certain armies (like Daemon Tzeentch) it will get pretty boring with most of your offence just being casting smite...

AoS horrors have flickering flames as a ranged attack used in the shooting phase, not a specific spell, so it may be some things got shuffled in that manner.

**Slave**

SeraphimXIX wrote:
Slave wrote:
I am having a hard time with a STR 6 Carnifex. That would be the lowest it's ever been.
It got a near 50-point reduction, has a faster movement speed, higher toughness and nearly triple the amount of wounds. With crushing claws it's strength 12.

This is shaping up to be the strongest incarnation of Carnifex we've ever seen.

Unless crushing claws are - 1 to hit.

The regular screamer killer configuration should never be STR 6. The hallmark of this model for 26 YEARS is a high strength battering ran.

I first used them in 1992. This is an extreme departure from the design of the model. I personally have 3 with scythes and bioplasma, just as they were since day 1.

STR 6 is sad. Hell, STR 9 was a shock when they lowered it the first time.

I really need to see this.

If they are available in broods, it won't suck as bad.

**Leth**

So if the chapter master rule is anything to go by it seems chapter masters give refill all hits while captains give Errol 1s.

Really like how they are presenting things. Makes it easy to make characters or units with a bunch of options. Curious to see how they limit access since it all seems to be one list.

Vehicle prices are interesting but I like the direction they are going with it. Vehicles should be more durable and expensive. Now they have rules that better reflect their role. I do find it interesting how all tau vehicles have the degrading stat lines since they start at 12 wounds

Also 100 point drop pods and 70 point rhinos. Will be interesting to see their stat lines and how they pan out in this edition.

**rippounet**

Nightlord1987 wrote:
so, if I read the deployment rules correctly, after the alternating unit to unit, the player who finishes deployment first, gets to go first?

So a nerf for MSU type armies, but also more workable with the increase/decrease of some unit prices (like transports).

It's a nerf to MSU (which is good), but it will also favor elite armies with fewer units over mass armies, which is bad.

Basically, with this rule, marines will almost always play first against orks, IG or 'nids.

I don't understand the purpose of this change. Perhaps it is because elite armies won't perform so well in 8th ed as before (due to save modifiers and damages on heavy weapons for instance), and/or perhaps because numbers will be a greater advantage than before (because templates are gone). At any rate I'm not sure I like it because it means you'll have to be very careful not to have too many units when you design your army list, which will make cheap troops slightly less interesting.

**Jadenim**

So, given the Riptide's nova power still has a 2d6 assault move (even if not assaulting) might (hopefully!) indicate that jet pack moves are still in.

**gungo**

rippounet wrote:
Nightlord1987 wrote:
so, if I read the deployment rules correctly, after the alternating unit to unit, the player who finishes deployment first, gets to go first?

So a nerf for MSU type armies, but also more workable with the increase/decrease of some unit prices (like transports).
It's a nerf to MSU (which is good), but it will also favor elite armies with fewer units over mass armies, which is bad.

Basically, with this rule, marines will almost always play first against orks, IG or 'nids.

I don't understand the purpose of this change. Perhaps it is because elite armies won't perform so well in 8th ed as before (due to save modifiers and damages on heavy weapons for instance), and/or perhaps because numbers will be a greater advantage than before (because templates are gone). At any rate I'm not sure I like it because it means you'll have to be very careful not to have too many units when you design your army list, which will make cheap troops slightly less interesting.

Considering the missions are nearly exactly the same and the core missions also heavily favor elite mobile armies. So I fully expect armies like eldar to continue to do well with the core missions and I fully expect tournament organizers to continue to make thier own mission primers. Seriously they barely even changed any missions and few tournaments even considered using the BRB missions before because of how unbalanced they were. It honestly doesnt matter how well gw balanced the army indexs if the missions people are playing so heavily favor a certain army design.

**SeraphimXIX**

Slave wrote:
Unless crushing claws are - 1 to hit.

I hope they are, otherwise the Carnifex will be overpowered.

The hallmark of this model for 26 YEARS is a high strength battering ran.

It still is a high-strength battering ram. Point for point one of the most durable units in the game, does auto mortal-wounds just by charging, can wound almost any unit in the game on 2's or 3's with the right upgrades, etc.

I first used them in 1992. This is an extreme departure from the design of the model. I personally have 3 with scythes and bioplasma, just as they were since day 1.

Oh well. Times change.

Carnifex have had extremely high base strength for over a decade and they've also been sub-optimal crap for over a decade. I'm perfectly happy with them sacrificing base strength in favor of being an actually good unit and matching their fluff.

**Deadawake1347**

Jadenim wrote:
So, given the Riptide's nova power still has a 2d6 assault move (even if not assaulting) might (hopefully!) indicate that jet pack moves are still in.

Actually, to me it indicates the opposite. If they were still in, they wouldn't give the Riptide exactly that as an ability that could potentially damage it when activated. It used to be you roll 3d6.

**Therion**

SilverAlien wrote:
Magc8Ball wrote:
Weird that the Chaos leak pictures showed a "Renegade Knight" page, but there wasn't an entry for it anywhere on the points cost page. I suppose there might be another page with LOW entries on it, given some of the Chaos daemon engines and named Greater Daemons available.

Note it doesn't have the heretic astartes faction keyword, it's likely in an entirely separate section of the book.

It does have the Chaos keyword though, making it usable.

**Red Corsair**

Deadawake1347 wrote:
Jadenim wrote:
So, given the Riptide's nova power still has a 2d6 assault move (even if not assaulting) might (hopefully!) indicate that jet pack moves are still in.

Actually, to me it indicates the opposite. If they were still in, they wouldn't give the Riptide exactly that as an ability that could potentially damage it when activated. It used to be you roll 3d6.

4d6 actually. It was 4d6 if they nova'd. I can all but guarantee jump shoot jump is gone for jet packs and hopefully jetbikes as well. It was a gamey horrible design feature. That said I dont mind it as a special rule here and there.