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If you want to have a chimera vs razorback fight, the razorback player can just go assault cannon and win every time for less points.
My response was more confusion over your off points values.
My Inquisition will ride chimeras.

Therion wrote:

ph34r wrote:

Therion wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:I would think that would be an easier way to spam Razors than servitors that mindlock 1/2 the game. Still...how many points are razors?

If Razors cost 80 points and Chimeras 35 or 40, I just can't see why you'd want Razorspam instead of Chimeraspam, especially as the troops inside can pack as many meltas or plasmas as you like. Chimeras beat Razors 1on1 and you get 2 for the price of one.

80 and 35? What? Razors are going to be 45 base, 85 with high tier weapons upgraded. Chimeras are going to be 55. I don't know where you got those numbers. Chimeras still cannot take anything stronger than a multilaser and do not cost half as much as a Razorback.

At 85 vs 55 points, I'll choose Chimera every single time. It means 5 Lasbacks have to go against 7.73 Chimeras, and that fight isn't going to be even close. What does 'anything stronger than a multilaser' even mean? The multilaser is very well suited against enemy AV10/AV11 vehicles. The lascannon on the Razorback is as overpriced as heavy weapons in this game get, and if the embarked troops have their hands full of meltaguns the lascannon doesn't serve any necessary role. Lastly, what's this talk about Servitors? I'm talking about the Henchman Warriors/IGmen in Chimeras, not the braindead Servitors.

7 Chimeras v. 5 LasRazors would actually be very close. Given LasRazors have 12" on the Chimeras, so we'll give them first volley and assume the Chimeras are able to range after that;

5 shots = 4.4 hits after twin linked
4.4 hits = 2.9 pens
3ish pens = one likely blown up, two either blown up/missing a weapon/immob/not shooting

4 Chimeras fire back
12 shots = 6 hits
1 pen, 1 glance = One maybe blown up/missing weapon/immob, another probably not shooting

3 Razor shots = 2.6 hits after twin linked
2.6 hits = 1-2ish pens, which means another chimera is likely blown up/missing weapon and another is not shooting

3 Chimeras fire back......etc. I don't feel like math hammering it all the way out (and some of my above might be off, quick math)....but it would likely be very close with the edge perhaps going to the Razors. Even more so if they position on opposing flanks to make a chimera expose side armor (whereas the Razors don't care about their flanks).



All that said, I can see an argument for either one of the tanks....

Any word on special rules for the other Inquisitor special characters?

I'm just hoping for a way to make it that its not required to take any grey knight units... (I'd rather save grey knights for my ordo malleus army.)

I've never seen that army or even an army list centered around 20 DSing TH/SS Terminators. Big, expensive, non-mech units of TH/SS Terminators have many drawbacks...which is why you don't see them.

Again, anyone can come up with a "Beat this unit" point match...it's not difficult. It's not difficult because it doesn't factor in;

How viable such an army build is against an array of opponents
How movement works on the table top
DSing
etc...

You made my point for me.
Ergo; taking 10 paladins and claiming they are OP is futile since all the other factors that count in will count as big nerfs to them.

We wont see many if any GK armies consisting of Dragio and 10 beefed up paladins with some cheap riffraff as filler since those will be very ineffective.
We could see armies with several 3-paladin squads and Dragio leading them plus support, that sounds far more effective.

As for the 20 DSing SS/TH terminators I use that all the time (well not 20 but 10-15) together with supporting units in pods. Worls wonders against most opponents but that is not the point of this thread.

Pyriel- wrote:

I've never seen that army or even an army list centered around 20 DSing TH/SS Terminators. Big, expensive, non-mech units of TH/SS Terminators have many drawbacks...which is why you don't see them.

Again, anyone can come up with a "Beat this unit" point match...it's not difficult. It's not difficult because it doesn't factor in;

How viable such an army build is against an array of opponents
How movement works on the table top
DSing
etc...

You made my point for me.
Ergo; taking 10 paladins and claiming they are OP is futile since all the other factors that count in will count as big nerfs to them.

We wont see many if any GK armies consisting of Dragio and 10 beefed up paladins with some cheap riffraff as filler since those will be very ineffective.
We could see armies with several 3-paladin squads and Dragio leading them plus support, that sounds far more effective.

As for the 20 DSing SS/TH terminators I use that all the time (well not 20 but 10-15) together with supporting units in pods. Worls wonders against most opponents but that is not the point of this thread.

I think deep paladin units led by Dragio will be very effective against a multitude of opponents. They're Nobz....but better.

Unless there is a specific clause that says you need 2+ purifiers/terminators/PAGK/paladins in an army, you will be able to take Corteaz, and then take Henchmen squads as your only required troops. Of course, with a no GK army you would be limited to Henchmen, rhinos/razors/chimeras/landraiders, assassins, and inquisitors. This isn't really a bad thing though, as though Henchmen would be the bulk of your army, you can easily make them into special weapon shooting squads, servitor shooting squads, crusader assault squads, warrior assault weapon squads, funky psyker squads, etc. This book looks to be much better for pure inquisition armies than the previous, with the minor disappointments of no BS4 stormtroopers, and having to take Corteaz (you can just counts as that anyway though).

Like most every other Imperial upgrade.

'Your (fill in unit here) is too powerful. Marines are having issues with it. We'll give them a better version of the same thing...'


They look like they'll be a real pain to beat down, and VERY hard to avoid

AgeOfEgos wrote:I think deep paladin units led by Dragio will be very effective against a multitude of opponents. They're Nobz....but better.

Nobz were good because they could tubro boost and then assault the next turn. They were super resilient to blasts and had a solid invuln save. Terminators have to derp around in a circle with only d6 inches of spreading out for a turn.

The Cortez Inquisition army sounds pretty darn good if there are no restrictions on henchmen. Will have to see this to believe it. The old book had restrictions on only 3 warriors and only 3 servitors so you couldn't have squads with 10 melta guns or plasmas.

Have a few questions for the rumor mongers.

What are the psychic hood options? Do Grandmasters, Brother Captains and Inquisitors still have options to buy psychic hoods like they did in the old book or do you have to buy a librarian?

Can Storm Raven's carry Dreadknights?

Can Storm Ravens get scout or outflank somehow?

Are there any fast attack options other then the Storm Raven?

ph34r wrote:Unless there is a specific clause that says you need 2+ purifiers/terminators/PAGK/paladins in an army, you will be able to take Corteaz, and then take Henchmen squads as your only required troops. Of course, with a no GK army you would be limited to Henchmen, rhinos/razors/chimeras/landraiders, assassins, and inquisitors. This isn't really a bad thing though, as though Henchmen would be the bulk of your army, you can easily make them into special weapon shooting squads, servitor shooting squads, crusader assault squads, warrior assault weapon squads, funky psyker squads, etc. This book looks to be much better for pure inquisition armies than the previous, with the minor disappointments of no BS4 stormtroopers, and having to take Corteaz (you can just counts as that anyway though).

I'm liking the sound of an Ordo Hereticus force; with Inquisitorial Chimeras and Inquisitorial Mobs with Meltaguns. Some other stuff too. I'll have pure Grey Knights for another army; and then pick up some Malleus and Xenos Inquisitors, since I dont really need to change much of my Mobs to get 3 armies out of it. (Malleus, Hereticus and Xenos pure. Then Grey Knights. 4 armies; one Inq codex? not bad)

Time to roast some space puppies and some Lost and the Damned.

sourclams wrote:

Vhalyar wrote:2. Fateweaver doesn't care about at all about the Vindicare. Shieldbreaker ammo can only affect Invulnerable saves granted by wargear or items.

Given GW's inability to define things, I look forward to the argumentation that this will cause. Cybork bodies: item or wargear? Ghazghull's Prophet of the Waaagh!: item or wargear? Hell, Bjorne the Fell-Handed: item or wargear?

This'll be horrible.

All wargear. Assassin saves? item. Daemonic Save? Item. Iron Halo? Wargear. Fateweaver? Sadly, item.

More or less is if the creature was born with an INV save, then it has it as an item. It is argueable for Thraka, but its just avoiding the ability to negate daemonic saves.

ph34r wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:I think deep paladin units led by Dragio will be very effective against a multitude of opponents. They're Nobz....but better.

Nobz were good because they could tubro boost and then assault the next turn. They were super resilient to blasts and had a solid invuln save. Terminators have to derp around in a circle with only d6 inches of spreading out for a turn.

That certainly isn't the reason Nobz are good...as most are loaded in a Battlewagon now. Nobz are good because;

They have 2 wounds
They can be uniquely outfitted
They have FNP
They are nasty in HTH
They count as troops


Paladins have all of those qualities, except better saves, better invs and access to a better transport.

There is a trend in 5ths assault units and that trend is units that can survive a round of shooting after they wipe a unit. TWC, Nobz, TH/SS Terms, Bloodcrushers...all share certain qualities. 2 wounds, wound allocation and survivability after they wipe a unit.



The only thing that will kill these guys in shooting is a gakload of AP weaponry. They are essentially immune to anything AP 3 and up.

Assassins are gonna be so fun now.

ph34r wrote:If you want to have a chimera vs razorback fight, the razorback player can just go assault cannon and win every time for less points.
My response was more confusion over your off points values.
My Inquisition will ride chimeras.

AssBacks cost the same amount as Lasbacks and therefore are not cheaper than Chimeras.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

All that said, I can see an argument for either one of the tanks....

Yes, and of course to help your case you decided to equip all of your Chimeras with heavy flamers instead of heavy bolters.

Additionally, let's not forget the fact that 8 AV12 tanks are more durable against a wide variety of opponents than 5 AV11 tanks.

Therion wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

All that said, I can see an argument for either one of the tanks....

Yes, and of course to help your case you decided to equip all of your Chimeras with heavy flamers instead of heavy bolters.

Well, the Chimera would likely have to move the first 1/2 turns to range the LasRazor before it could sit still to shoot it's hvy bolter/Multi-Las....and BS 3 Heavy Bolters that need 6's to glance does not impress coming turn 3....

Regardless, as I stated and you quoted, I can see an argument for either one of the tanks.

Kirika wrote:The Cortez Inquisition army sounds pretty darn good if there are no restrictions on henchmen. Will have to see this to believe it. The old book had restrictions on only 3 warriors and only 3 servitors so you couldn't have squads with 10 melta guns or plasmas.

Have a few questions for the rumor mongers.

What are the psychic hood options? Do Grandmasters, Brother Captains and Inquisitors still have options to buy psychic hoods like they did in the old book or do you have to buy a librarian?

Can Storm Raven's carry Dreadknights?

Can Storm Ravens get scout or outflank somehow?

Are there any fast attack options other then the Storm Raven?

Librarian
No
No
No

Jaon wrote:

sourclams wrote:

Vhalyar wrote:2. Fateweaver doesn't care about at all about the Vindicare. Shieldbreaker ammo can only affect Invulnerable saves granted by wargear or items.

Given GW's inability to define things, I look forward to the argumentation that this will cause. Cybork bodies: item or wargear? Ghazghull's Prophet of the Waaagh!: item or wargear? Hell, Bjorne the Fell-Handed: item or wargear?

This'll be horrible.

All wargear. Assassin saves? item. Daemonic Save? Item. Iron Halo? Wargear. Fateweaver? Sadly, item.

More or less is if the creature was born with an INV save, then it has it as an item. It is argueable for Thraka, but its just avoiding the ability to negate daemonic saves.

Uh, no. Fateweavers save is not an item-it is an ability. An iron halo, or a storm shield, or anything you upgrade is an item. If the Vindicare does take away invul saves granted by items, as it is written it will not take away daemonic saves. Even if it should, being in the anti-daemon codex, the wording suggests that it will not. Will have to wait and see on this, but as it is written in the forums, the shieldbreaker will not remove Fateweaver's or any other daemons' saves: except those who have Iron Hide. I can't speak for Ghazghull or any other ork, but I will speak on behalf of the daemons. Fluffwise I think it should take away-but as it is written here, it shouldn't.


edit-forgot we were talking strictly "invul save" here-ignore the Iron Hide portion

Therion wrote:

ph34r wrote:If you want to have a chimera vs razorback fight, the razorback player can just go assault cannon and win every time for less points.
My response was more confusion over your off points values.
My Inquisition will ride chimeras.

AssBacks cost the same amount as Lasbacks and therefore are not cheaper than Chimeras.

Good point, I always forget that because nobody ever takes them. Regardless, the math for chimera vs LC razor is there as you can see.
Also chimeras should be counted as fitting heavy flamers because as they are more effective transports they should be always moving.

That certainly isn't the reason Nobz are good...as most are loaded in a Battlewagon now. Nobz are good because;

They have 2 wounds
They can be uniquely outfitted
They have FNP
They are nasty in HTH
They count as troops


Paladins have all of those qualities, except better saves, better invs and access to a better transport.

There is a trend in 5ths assault units and that trend is units that can survive a round of shooting after they wipe a unit. TWC, Nobz, TH/SS Terms, Bloodcrushers...all share certain qualities. 2 wounds, wound allocation and survivability after they wipe a unit.

The fundamental difference being that while the 1+ nobs in their little tank are not as rock hard as the 10 paladins in their (what transport carries 10 termies again?)
the orks can have 150 more boys for support and objective grabbing whereas the paladin army has...well.

I still think the paladin squad will be ineffective if taken in full and effective if taken in small units but with a very big risk factor of getting kicked if meeting a hardcounter unit like hammernators on the table.
As it should be might I add since no single unit should be able to walk over everything else.

Can Storm Ravens get scout or outflank somehow?

Are there any fast attack options other then the Storm Raven?

Librarian
No

So no psychic hoods for all any more. That´s fine, they get Ld damping units in the form of ven dreadnoughts instead.

But surely the stormraven can get the scout rule from a grandmasters special D3 rule?

Pyriel- wrote:But surely the stormraven can get the scout rule from a grandmasters special D3 rule?

Nope, it's limited to Infantry, Jump Infantry, Monstrous Creatures and Walkers.
Henchmen Warbands, Independent Characters and Ghost Knights cannot have Grand Strategy used on them.

Nope, it's limited to Infantry, Jump Infantry, Monstrous Creatures and Walkers.
Henchmen Warbands, Independent Characters and Ghost Knights cannot have Grand Strategy used on them.

Damn, that pretty much spelled the death of the GK stormraven.

With the BAs you can have a cheaper dread and a cheaper squad inside and thus can more afford to have the thing blown up by a lousy IG missile launcher and such, as for the GKs with squads and such being more costly and the rest of the army being smaller they can ill afford to have a first turn or DSing stormraven blown up before it delivers its payload.

Is there any chance in the GK army to increase the survivability of the stormraven?

Pyriel- wrote:

That certainly isn't the reason Nobz are good...as most are loaded in a Battlewagon now. Nobz are good because;

They have 2 wounds
They can be uniquely outfitted
They have FNP
They are nasty in HTH
They count as troops


Paladins have all of those qualities, except better saves, better invs and access to a better transport.

There is a trend in 5ths assault units and that trend is units that can survive a round of shooting after they wipe a unit. TWC, Nobz, TH/SS Terms, Bloodcrushers...all share certain qualities. 2 wounds, wound allocation and survivability after they wipe a unit.

The fundamental difference being that while the 1+ nobs in their little tank are not as rock hard as the 10 paladins in their (what transport carries 10 termies again?)
the orks can have 150 more boys for support and objective grabbing whereas the paladin army has...well.

I still think the paladin squad will be ineffective if taken in full and effective if taken in small units but with a very big risk factor of getting kicked if meeting a hardcounter unit like hammernators on the table.
As it should be might I add since no single unit should be able to walk over everything else.

I've never stated taking 10 man Paladin squads would be a good idea, I believe Sourclams threw that number out there. I think 6-7 will be a typical load out, all unique for allocation with a few staves...all of which will fit in a LR. These discussions always break away though to people adding additional units (150 boyz) while the GK can add 135 point DreadKnights, 20 pt PAGK in rhinos, etc etc. Which is why ultimately these discussions are futile.

For giggles though, you want to see how strong 10 Paladins would be? 150 boyz charge them and let's say for gaks/giggles that 100 manage to get within 2" for attacks (Impossible but hey for fun).

That's 400 attacks.
200 hits
100 wounds

Unit of 10 paladins, each takes 10 saves.

Each paladin fails 1.6 saves initially.
Then 0.8 saves after FNP.

Which means the Paladin player didn't lose a model...lol. Movie Marines indeed!

Thanks to wound allocation, that's (thankfully) not really how it works, unless every single model is differentiated.

Which doesn't sound like it will be difficult given the cornucopia of options paladins supposedly have.

sourclams wrote:

KingCracker wrote:Out of the rumors for the GK that I simply just hate, is the fact that Stern removes models. I dont know WHY GW started tossing in that rule here and there but I just hate it. Why should you just remove models? That is game breaking IMO.

Stern can remove his own models as well. That's a big thing to keep in mind in lists that can tie up 900 points in 11 dudes.

I think Stern is going to be pretty rare considering his abilities are nothing above and beyond what a normal BC can do, can be beneficial to your opponent (rerolling saves), and have a possibility to instawipe your very own 50 point models off the table.

The two things that need to be confirmed, in my mind, for GK to be declared 'THE BORKEN' or not, are whether warding saves really are 2++ saves that act as power weapons in CC, and even more significant, whether the storm bolter grants a universal +1 attack.

In my mind there's a big difference between PAGK charging/charged getting 30/20 or 20/10 attacks with power weapons.

And 2++ warding staves on 3 models can be the difference between being willing to Scout/Infiltrate 10 Terminators 18 inches away from opponent deployment on T1 and... not being willing to do that.

My point still stands, weather he can instagib his own units or not. The ability of just removing minis is ridiculous. Im still hoping that much of the rumors for them is just that, rumors. Im getting rather annoyed with SM getting uber dexes, while everyone else just kindda gets the scraps

Pyriel- wrote:
Is there any chance in the GK army to increase the survivability of the stormraven?

It has Fortititude...and you might be able to shroud it?



Does anyone know if there is still a 0-1 limit on GKGMs?

If there is a limit...does Stern still not count towards that limit when taken?

Seeing as Stern is in fact a Brother Captain and not a Grand Master I don't see why he would count toward a Grand Master limit.

Just making sure....because for all other purposes he has always counted as a Grand Master...including the new codex's supposed "Grand Strategy" rule

Fetterkey wrote:Thanks to wound allocation, that's (thankfully) not really how it works, unless every single model is differentiated.

It appears, given the rumors we have, that differentiation will be possible on Paladins...which means that's how it would work. To add to that, at this point there is no question that such abuse is by design as well. They are basically using the wound allocation rules to give units another unique perk without writing special rules for it.

ductvader wrote:Just making sure....because for all other purposes he has always counted as a Grand Master...including the new codex's supposed "Grand Strategy" rule

Hm, well, I can't answer that 100% for certain.