Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

This is getting OT again with opinion and conjecture.

Please may we keep this thread for NEWS and helpful interpretation of what is happening for those of us that struggle with legalese.

Thank you

Makes the army almost unplayable

I blame that on the Tyranid codex more than I do the lack of a tervigon kit. lol...

And to think I actually tried to defend the Tyranid codex once. I'm kind of stupid. (I fully endorse taking this part out of context and displaying it in your signature if you so wish. :p)

1.) Background fact is that Chapterhouse guys are fans of the 40k universe and the products GW releases. They obviously try to enhance the hobby, not to harm GW. They have no intention to sue GW once GW also releases a tervigon kit or a Rhino Mk.1 conversion kit. They may have said in court that if someone could sue for doing a Tervigon kit, it would be Chapterhouse according to existing law. That's a fact that GW obviously wasn't aware of. But Chapterhouse never would do that, as they like GW kits like most people here.

I am amazed, do you really think that any company is going to be happy if another comes in and potentially takes the rights to their creation? Just look at the mobile phone wars between Apple and the rest for that. Whether CHS are fans or not is irelavant, the fact that they did what they did shows a lack of judgement for good or ill.

3.) Chapterhouse did nothing wrong according to existing law, and GW was not prepared to actually make a concrete accusation. So if Chapterhouse said so on their website, they were right, no need to demonise them. If GW felt forced "to defend their rights", it was not consistent with US law. So unfortunately GW's claims are indeed unjustified and they will lose this expensive lawsuit, probably bringing less friendly manufacturers into the arena and creating a real problem for the first time. If GW now listens to their legal advisors, they should take into account, that these people have no clue and created problems GW never had before.

Who's to say that they didn't listen to their legal team? There is a lot of huff and puff about GW legal, but they do have a history of also guiding third party manufacturers to a point where they are not infringing removing the need for court cases which are indeed expensive and wastefull. I can't remember who produced the near copy of the FW GUO, but they were helped and guided as an example

Captain Jack wrote:
I am amazed, do you really think that any company is going to be happy if another comes in and potentially takes the rights to their creation? Just look at the mobile phone wars between Apple and the rest for that. Whether CHS are fans or not is irelavant, the fact that they did what they did shows a lack of judgement for good or ill.

Except that this case is more comparable to if Apple sued a company manufacting Iphone carrying cases or an accessory. While most companies make a point of making licenses to do so affordably available, those manufacturers aren't legally required since the shape of the phone is just geometry and the name is neccesary to the cases description.

Captain Jack wrote:
Who's to say that they didn't listen to their legal team? There is a lot of huff and puff about GW legal, but they do have a history of also guiding third party manufacturers to a point where they are not infringing removing the need for court cases which are indeed expensive and wastefull. I can't remember who produced the near copy of the FW GUO, but they were helped and guided as an example

They've basically neglected their duty as the right holder to put forth evidence of the infringement. So their legal council is either idiots and opening themselves up to some claim of legal malpractice, or its GW telling them what to do. The bull headedness of the approach seems so in line with how GW's treated individuals and companies with its internal legal department in the past its hard to believe their outside council would be pushing the same without GW insistence.

Captain Jack wrote:
I am know as being a detractor of the CHS miniatures, but this case need not have happened if CHS had followed the same routes as the other third parties. I haven't seen Kromlec or any of the third parties getting stiffed, and the Lammasu head is a nithing as it was only a last minute addon. Again it was solved amicably. Notice in all the cases we only hear one side of the story though.

Think of it as driving down the highway, those other companies were going well below the speed limit... CH's speedometer says it was going at the limit, and GW with its uncalibrated radar gun believes CH was recklessly speeding and endangering the everyone on the road... and no thinks for this infraction should get the death penalty. Just because other companies choose to approach more cautiously doesn't mean CH must do the same.

CH has been insistent of the fact that in the US, it has legal precedent and right to do what it did. GW's uncompetitive and hurts the hobby, by being so overreaching. CH has enriched, if even in a small way, the hobby by putting out products people have wanted while GW has forced companies to cancel products that people really wanted.

aka_mythos wrote:Except that this case is more comparable to if Apple sued a company manufacting Iphone carrying cases or an accessory. While most companies make a point of making licenses to do so affordably available, those manufacturers aren't legally required since the shape of the phone is just geometry and the name is neccesary to the cases description.

That analogy stops working when you consider they made a standalone Doom of Malantai model. And called it that. It's no longer only about add-on parts. It's them making a standalone model and claiming it to be the unit from the codex. If all they did was call it an alien brain or something like Troll Forged did, it would have saved a lot of hassle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

aka_mythos wrote:CH has been insistent of the fact that in the US, it has legal precedent and right to do what it did. GW's uncompetitive and hurts the hobby, by being so overreaching. CH has enriched, if even in a small way, the hobby by putting out products people have wanted while GW has forced companies to cancel products that people really wanted.

GW aren't being uncompetitive. They don't like their IP being stolen, like other companies. When all chapterhouse did was make conversion bits, GW let them go. Grudgingly, but they let them go. When they crossed the line and made standalone models that makes claim on GW's IP, they quite obviously, like any company would, got their legal team involved. The competency of their legal team isn't what I'm taking issue with, it's chapterhouse quite knowngly stealing IP.

If they want to make converison bits, great for them. If they want to piss off an entire portion of GW's playerbase by releasing terrible models that forces GW to hold their own back, they can rot.

Captain Jack wrote: I am amazed, do you really think that any company is going to be happy if another comes in and potentially takes the rights to their creation? Just look at the mobile phone wars between Apple and the rest for that. Whether CHS are fans or not is irelavant, the fact that they did what they did shows a lack of judgement for good or ill.

I think that GW should be happy that for every dollar bought from Chapterhouse, customers have to spend 5-10 dollars on GW products, some of them not spend without Chapterhouse (tervigon kit, Storm Raven kit). But GW has a tradition to fight growing sales in every way possible.

Captain Jack wrote:Who's to say that they didn't listen to their legal team? There is a lot of huff and puff about GW legal, but they do have a history of also guiding third party manufacturers to a point where they are not infringing removing the need for court cases which are indeed expensive and wastefull. I can't remember who produced the near copy of the FW GUO, but they were helped and guided as an example

I am know as being a detractor of the CHS miniatures, but this case need not have happened if CHS had followed the same routes as the other third parties. I haven't seen Kromlec or any of the third parties getting stiffed, and the Lammasu head is a nithing as it was only a last minute addon. Again it was solved amicably. Notice in all the cases we only hear one side of the story though.

They guided the talented people of Ultraforge out of the hobby, old products only sold by someone else since then.
And the questionalble Lamassu issue wasn't solved amicably, Raging Hordes just said it wasn't worth the effort to fight that bully.
And no need to say "it's Chapterhouses own fault" as GW couldn't show any fault until today (except the names that have been changed now). It is GW's fault to listed to incompetent lawyers and/or to have weird opinions of what is legal and illegal.

-Loki- wrote:That analogy stops working when you consider they made a standalone Doom of Malantai model. And called it that. It's no longer only about add-on parts. It's them making a standalone model and claiming it to be the unit from the codex. If all they did was call it an alien brain or something like Troll Forged did, it would have saved a lot of hassle..

Please don't make things up to "prove" your point. Chapterhouse never released a Doom model, so you can't say they claimed it to be that (they only made a green but there was no official name for it).

-Loki- wrote:The competency of their legal team isn't what I'm taking issue with, it's chapterhouse quite knowngly stealing IP.

If things are so clear, why can't a top lawfirm prove it for almost a year? Maybe you are doing false accusations and Chapterhouse could sue you for defamation.

Kroothawk wrote:

-Loki- wrote:That analogy stops working when you consider they made a standalone Doom of Malantai model. And called it that. It's no longer only about add-on parts. It's them making a standalone model and claiming it to be the unit from the codex. If all they did was call it an alien brain or something like Troll Forged did, it would have saved a lot of hassle..

Please don't make things up to "prove" your point. Chapterhouse never released a Doom model, so you can't say they claimed it to be that (they only made a green but there was no official name for it).

Fair point. They never released it. However, don't call me a liar and then lie to prove your point. I direct you to their news post where they talk about their Doom of Malantai model, how they are going to put it in production. There's even painted pictures, not just a green.

Salient points bolded.

One of the priviledges of running Chapterhouse is the ability to use the minis we create before anyone else can. This last Saturday I was able to put on the table our first alien mini with my tyranid army. I used our "Doom of Malantai (SP?)" model. I have to say it was akin to dropping a nuke on the board. His 6 inch aura ability is lethal when you couple it with a mycotic spore drop.

Production will begin this week, he is a our FIRST single piece pewter model which easily mounts on a 40 mm base (he has 2 tabs to mount in holes) and stands at 90 mm tall (without the base). Take a look below to see the painted version.

So here is our "Doom of Malantai" miniature.

Again, don't call me a liar and lie yourself.

This would be the 'crossing the line when they made a Doom of Malantai model' StraightSilver mentioned

-Loki- wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

aka_mythos wrote:CH has been insistent of the fact that in the US, it has legal precedent and right to do what it did. GW's uncompetitive and hurts the hobby, by being so overreaching. CH has enriched, if even in a small way, the hobby by putting out products people have wanted while GW has forced companies to cancel products that people really wanted.

GW aren't being uncompetitive. They don't like their IP being stolen, like other companies. When all chapterhouse did was make conversion bits, GW let them go. Grudgingly, but they let them go. When they crossed the line and made standalone models that makes claim on GW's IP, they quite obviously, like any company would, got their legal team involved. The competency of their legal team isn't what I'm taking issue with, it's chapterhouse quite knowngly stealing IP.

Whether or not CH have stolen anything is for the court to decide. If they decide against GW, then CH were acting legitimately.

At the moment, we don't know which way it will go, or the legality of it. Certainly CH have reproduced something like GW IP, but that isn't illegal in itself.

If they want to make converison bits, great for them. If they want to piss off an entire portion of GW's playerbase by releasing terrible models that forces GW to hold their own back, they can rot.

You can't hold CH responsible for GW's reaction. CH don't control GW, they haven't made them do anything. If the court decides in the favour of CH then they were never doing anything wrong. GW had better be prepared to suck it up and move on.

Your attitude seems to be that if CH should throw their business under the bus to keep GW's customers happy. Sorry but that's absurd.

Howard A Treesong wrote:You can't hold CH responsible for GW's reaction. CH don't control GW, they haven't made them do anything. If the court decides in the favour of CH then they were never doing anything wrong. GW had better be prepared to suck it up and move on.

Your attitude seems to be that if CH should throw their business under the bus to keep GW's customers happy. Sorry but that's absurd.

Never said that at all. I've got no problems with chapterhouse as a business, they release bits GW never would. What pisses me off is when they release something terrible which affects a legitimate release.

-Loki- wrote:Never said that at all. I've got no problems with chapterhouse as a business, they release bits GW never would. What pisses me off is when they release something terrible which affects a legitimate release.

We will see if Chapterhouse or GW get convicted for making terrible sculpts

They guided the talented people of Ultraforge out of the hobby, old products only sold by someone else since then.

Ah, so they did go out of business then? I was wondering what happened to them.

Also, on the topic of the GUO, weren't they actually told to just pull it from production? Because I remember not long after it was released you couldn't get it anymore. That's not very good "guidance" or "help" in my opinion, lol...being told specifically what needed changing in order to avoid copying GW IP would be better.

Ultraforge sold their business and molds to someone else, and went and did their own thing. All Ultraforge does now is reproduce those sculpts.

Backfire wrote: Maybe I am still missing something, but I don't understand why this would be a concern for GW.

If I were a write a book called "Harry Potter and the return of Voldemort" and try to sell it to people, would JK Rowling's lawyers nail me in a heartbeat? They sure would. And certainly it wouldn't stop her later releasing book of the same name, even if I got there first. Because Rowling has copyright for "Harry Potter". The fact that she doesn't have a copyright for the underlying idea (wizard kid in a wiz school) is irrelevant.

GW does not have copyright for "scary biomechanical space monster" (indeed, they were the ones who copied the concept elsewhere). But they do have copyright for the names "Tyranid" or "Tervigon" used in that context.

Its a little more complicated than that.
You would be perfectly ok to write a book about an accountant named harry potter, or a boy who goes to wizard school, and probably even a book about a witch called Eloise Midgeon (one of the undeveloped characters in
Harry Potter).
Harry Potter and Voldemort and a host of other people are protected as *characters* under copyright law. They are sufficiently well detailed and defined that they have moved beyond a concept ('wizard student') into a complete, original expression of that concept. The Tervigon at the moment is little more than a name coupled to a concept. The single paragraph defining the tervigon is (possibly) not enough to give it protection as a character and distinguish it from the general concept of a 'alien brood beast' . Companies are not allowed to claim ownership of a concept or word simply because it is printed in a book: otherwise, within hours someone will generate a list of every possible combination of letters and try to copyright them all.




Personally, I don't see why GW would be delaying its release of Tyranid second wave because of CHS. My reasoning:

1) If CHS is found guilty, then that would mean that GW had the rights to produce the mini all along.
2) If CHS is found not guilty, then that would mean it is ok to produce model inspired by another company's IP, which means GW had the right to produce that mini all along.
...

When did this case start?

I have a vague memory it was November last year.

December - one of the big 'evil GW' points is that they filed over Christmas. I would say the timing had much more to do with CHS planning to release a Doom of Malantai model mid-December but hey...

If GW rushed their complaint into the legal system at short notice because of the Doom of Malantai that would help explain why it was written up in such an apparently half-assed way

It normally would take at least a few weeks for a legal team to get all the facts and papers organised.

I recall that they said they got the nasty surprise just in time for Christmas. But I assume GW had been in touch before then with a C&D.

Sheesh, weeks of inactivity on this thread then it explodes over the weekend.

aka_mythos wrote:Is that what a "sanction 78" is? I was under the impression its was just a motion to compel under sanction... where the court instead of just asking someone to do something basically adds "or else". CH was denied the "or else."

The reference to 78 was, I believe, a reference to item 78.0 on the recap website, which was CH's motion.

My guess (complete speculation) as to why the motion was denied was because CH hasn't really been acting appropriately in their demands. Under normal discovery, you make a demand and if they refuse to provide the information, you first talk to them and then file a motion to compel. CH apparently didn't talk to GW about the discovery dispute before filing their motion to compel.

I wish GW's Memorandum in Opposition to motion for sanctions and Cross-Motion to Strike was available (#83) so we could see the arguments they made.

Dysartes wrote:Question for the lawyery types - do the court transcripts tend to turn up as accessible documents at any point?

Depends on the court. If you really are interested, you could contact the court and ask for a transcript of the arguments made in a case. They will probably charge you for it, maybe around $20.

Kilkrazy wrote:If GW rushed their complaint into the legal system at short notice because of the Doom of Malantai that would help explain why it was written up in such an apparently half-assed way

It normally would take at least a few weeks for a legal team to get all the facts and papers organised.

It shouldn't. GW's legal team (for whatever reasons) made some terrible mistakes in their original complaint. I'm not sure why they did so, since the attorneys on the case seem to be reasonably competent. It's possible that the job was left to a junior associate and the attorneys simply signed off on what they were handed. But after the first motion to dismiss, some more experienced hands should have stepped in.

The behavior of GW's attorneys in this case has been...odd.

-Loki- wrote:That analogy stops working when you consider they made a standalone Doom of Malantai model. And called it that. It's no longer only about add-on parts. It's them making a standalone model and claiming it to be the unit from the codex. If all they did was call it an alien brain or something like Troll Forged did, it would have saved a lot of hassle.

But that isn't how copyrights and trademarks work. GW's presented no visual depiction with which this is meant to resemble, which is what GW has to show to stop CH from releasing the model. In Nick's post the name is in quotation marks, which is common citation for using a proper noun or phrase that you don't claim ownership to... GW has to show CH is attempting to misidentify or claim ownership over its trademarked name, there its a bit more iffy, but justified as Nick explaining how he recently used the item.

-Loki- wrote:
GW aren't being uncompetitive. They don't like their IP being stolen, like other companies. When all chapterhouse did was make conversion bits, GW let them go. Grudgingly, but they let them go.

No GW threatend CH like it had threatend many other companies before about producing bits compatible with its products, but unlike alot of others who folded, closed shop, or threw away an investment, CH got a legal council and given guidance as to what its rights were.

-Loki- wrote:
When they crossed the line and made standalone models that makes claim on GW's IP, they quite obviously, like any company would, got their legal team involved. The competency of their legal team isn't what I'm taking issue with, it's chapterhouse quite knowngly stealing IP.

Lets not be get tied up in the semantics, its called "infringing" not stealing; CH does not gain possesion of IP by labeling. No physical model can make claim of an IP, where none exists prior... its only the use of the name that could have potentially infringed. While a standalone model may have crossed the line, it wasn't anything GW asked CH to undo. Even if you believe GW was well with in its right, it is just one more point in its history of over reacting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Trasvi wrote:
Personally, I don't see why GW would be delaying its release of Tyranid second wave because of CHS. My reasoning:

1) If CHS is found guilty, then that would mean that GW had the rights to produce the mini all along.
2) If CHS is found not guilty, then that would mean it is ok to produce model inspired by another company's IP, which means GW had the right to produce that mini all along.
...

GW's worst fears and why you don't see too many cases like this one...
If CHS is found guilty it will state clearly for all of 3rd party bitz makers where the legal "line" is drawn, letting them know what they too can get away with.
If CHS is found not guilty it will state clearly for all of 3rd party bitz makers what CHS is doing is acceptable.

IF GW has a sincere concern about a tyranid second wave its only because they have their skewed sense of copyright laws. They sued out of vague similarities to their products... but anyone who's product is out before GW's... GW's will have a similar degree of vague similarity... and thus just as much basis to sue as GW believes it does. In reality neither GW or those other companies have a basis to sue solely on the vague similarities of their sculptures. The standard is more stringent than an ease of confusion in side by side comparison, but because GW doesn't grasp this it feels it has to act more greatly territorial.

Kilkrazy wrote:Transcripts are transcripts and can be accessed via the means laid out by Weeble1000 a page or two above.

It probably takes a lawyer to interpret the legal terminology into everyday speech.

KillKrazy, it depends on the court. In the Northern District of Illinois, you have to request transcripts and pay for them. The court reporter transcribes everything, but transcripts aren't posted to the docket. The parties to a suit typically have access to transcripts, and the transcripts are usually available upon request, but it requires work to prepare a transcript and post it, hence the cost. Some of the transcripts are available because the parties included them as exhibits in a motion, thus meaning they were posted on the docket.

I believe that transcripts can be ordered online and provided electronically, but there's typically a cost per page. (https://www.ilnd.uscourts.gov/home/Transcript-Order-Form.aspx) and (http://www.ilnd.uscourts.gov/CLERKS_OFFICE/CrtReporter/trnscrpt.htm)

I believe that the Open Records Act states that getting copies of these kinds of things are supposed to cost a maximum of $0.25 per page, but I know that many courts in my area flaunt this with apparent impunity.

"(c) Where no fee is otherwise provided by law, the agency may charge and collect a uniform copying fee not to exceed 25 [cents] per page. "

http://www.sos.ga.gov/archives/who_are_we/rims/best_practices_resources/open_records_act.htm

biccat wrote:
I wish GW's Memorandum in Opposition to motion for sanctions and Cross-Motion to Strike was available (#83) so we could see the arguments they made.

It is. If you're following the link you posted earlier, maybe it is sending you to a less updated version of the Recap docket. Anyway, I just checked. The document is available through recap.

poda_t wrote:I am actually curious on this point. I suppose its a bit of a deviation from topic, but i suspect its still relevant. What is the difference between chapterhouse, a part manufacturer, and say, worthy painting, or blue table painting, which assemble(convert) and paint your armies for you, using GW's IP, and profiting off of it.

I asked this back at the beginning as an unintended consequence, but it seems more prominent now as GW seem to have to provide colour schemes as part of their IP/Copyright proof. If that part of their evidence is accepted in court as valid, do the third party painting services have problems on their hands?

Cheers

Andrew

-Loki- wrote:

GW aren't being uncompetitive. They don't like their IP being stolen, like other companies.

except....GW hasnt even produced evidence that it OWNS the IP, much less that its been stolen. The last several months have shown that.

AndrewC wrote:If that part of their evidence is accepted in court as valid, do the third party painting services have problems on their hands?

This is a big, monster 'if', isn't it? I mean, if you could legitimately lay claim to a color scheme, wouldn't pro sports teams have already done so? (And I realize you're not arguing this, it's more a rhetorical universal query).

It seems like colors are universal, and you need some other design work in order to claim copyright/trademark. I recall whoever the designer is that tried to claim shoes with red soles as a copyright getting shot down in court.

weeble1000 wrote:

biccat wrote:
I wish GW's Memorandum in Opposition to motion for sanctions and Cross-Motion to Strike was available (#83) so we could see the arguments they made.

It is. If you're following the link you posted earlier, maybe it is sending you to a less updated version of the Recap docket. Anyway, I just checked. The document is available through recap.

Hm, it's still showing the link as "Buy from PACER". Will have to check when I get home (stupid internet explorer at work...)

Louboutin was the shoe designer. The case was very recent. The court ruled that no-one can lay claim to the colour of the soles of shoes.

poda_t wrote:I am actually curious on this point. I suppose its a bit of a deviation from topic, but i suspect its still relevant. What is the difference between chapterhouse, a part manufacturer, and say, worthy painting, or blue table painting, which assemble(convert) and paint your armies for you, using GW's IP, and profiting off of it.

Blue Table Painting is maybe a bad example as they just copied a Micro Art Studio kit (mdf-made SciFi stairway) and now sell it as their invention.

sourclams wrote:

AndrewC wrote:If that part of their evidence is accepted in court as valid, do the third party painting services have problems on their hands?

This is a big, monster 'if', isn't it? I mean, if you could legitimately lay claim to a color scheme, wouldn't pro sports teams have already done so? (And I realize you're not arguing this, it's more a rhetorical universal query).

It seems like colors are universal, and you need some other design work in order to claim copyright/trademark. I recall whoever the designer is that tried to claim shoes with red soles as a copyright getting shot down in court.

I will see if I can scare up the articles discussing it, but withing the last couple years the University of Kansas was able to, to an extent, prove color scheme to be somewhat protected. They were not able to do anything crazy like keep people from using Crimson and Blue, but when a local tshirt shop without a license from the University was using combinations as simple as blue or red shirts with the letters "KU" or the word "Kansas", in certain contexts the University was able to prove violations and collect damages. If I recall the shop was forced to close its doors.

So while color schemes themselves aren't defensable, I would say color schemes in certain contexts might be.

sourclams wrote:It seems like colors are universal, and you need some other design work in order to claim copyright/trademark. I recall whoever the designer is that tried to claim shoes with red soles as a copyright getting shot down in court.

There have been valid assertions of trademark interest in colors, but they are limited to specific fields. See Qualitex where the color of dry-cleaning pads was considered a valid trademark.