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I don't understand what that means, weeble . The CH request for sanctions against GW was denied...? Or maybe the other way around...

warboss wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:What I would be curious about is;

Are the attorneys for Games Workshop incompetent--or is Games Workshop's position simply untenable?

I ask, as if the posters are correct and the requests made by CH's firm rather expected--you would think Games Workshop would have answered all of these questions internally (and prepared to answer them).....before filing suit.

It seems that GW's vaunted legal team is not made up of actual lawyers but instead consists of same rules lawyers that comprise their development team and make the air-tight and finely honed tourney quality rules we've come to love in YMDC. When the judge asked GW to clarify their position, the apparently provided their typical style FAQ/erratta which appears to be lacking the detail necessary to cover the questions asked (shocking, I know!). Perhaps Yak and the INAT council could help GW draft a revised court FAQ filing for GW. Apparently no one also mentioned to the judge that the most important rule should apply in court and that the opposing parties should just d6 the decision if they can't agree.

ROFL...and QFT

- Please refrain from pointless '+1' or 'QFT'-style posts. This adds nothing to the discussion. - insaniak

ToI wrote:


This is entirely unhelpful...

OT - I am interested to see what comes of this after the November court date for the suit. I am hoping that this case gets resolved sooner rather than later and that GW realizes they are losing more than they are gaining by doing this.

As are the comments demonizing CH for supposedly causing a delay in the release of non-existant GW models. Both are ludicrous, at least my comment had the temerity of attempting to be entertaining instead of outright untruthful and assinine.

The case will drag on for as long as GW's legal counsel can do so. They've been partially successful in that the court is ordering both parties to consider real avenues of settlement. What this hints at, and has been mentioned before, is the GW's legal counsel knows that they don't have much of a case so are stalling, being obtuse and generally mucking things up to the point the court will step in and do one of two things; force a settlement or find in favor of CH but without prejudice which means that GW will be able to come back later and sue again when they have their legal act together.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RiTides wrote:I don't understand what that means, weeble . The CH request for sanctions against GW was denied...? Or maybe the other way around...

Without the transcript we don't knw why the request for sanction was denied. I'm assuming (dangerous I know) that this pertains to CH's request and that the court is continuing to be lenient towards GW or that the judge feels that both parties are being equally uncooperative.

agnosto wrote:This just in. All car manufacturers are withholding releasing electric and hybrind cars because other companies make batteries. Energizer threatens to send bunny hit squad if cars are put into production.

Breaking news: Duracel has sued Energizer for copying the bunny concept.

Is it possible for someone who has been following this to provide an unbiased recap of this? I'm interested, but not, you know, 44 page interested.

GW sues CH
GW tells CH show us how you've infringed
CH says, no that's your responsibility show us how you believe we've infringed.
...months later...
GW: we believe you've infringed 90 different places
CH, show us...
...months later

GW: To the court, CH still hasn't shown us how it's infringed
CH: GW still hasn't shown us any basis for it belief CH has infringed.

...months later
GW: We have a catalog; that's our proof
CH: You have to be more specific; show us the physical models to compare.
GW: We have photos.
CH: To court, GW still hasn't shown us where we've specifically infringed; they've failed to produced physical models for comparison; GW's shown such an insincere attempt at its case our Pro Bono lawyers will pursue legal fees from GW.

aka_mythos wrote:GW sues CH
GW tells CH show us how you've infringed
CH says, no that's your responsibility show us how you believe we've infringed.
...months later...
GW: we believe you've infringed 90 different places
CH, show us...
...months later

GW: To the court, CH still hasn't shown us how it's infringed
CH: GW still hasn't shown us any basis for it belief CH has infringed.

...months later
GW: We have a catalog; that's our proof
CH: You have to be more specific; show us the physical models to compare.
GW: We have photos.
CH: To court, GW still hasn't shown us where we've specifically infringed; they've failed to produced physical models for comparison; GW's shown such an insincere attempt at its case our Pro Bono lawyers will pursue legal fees from GW.

Long story short, GW tried to bully a small bits company, but did it so badly that the little company now gets to sue them? That's just beautiful.

GW: We can't release the minis fans have been clamoring for for two years, because we're too busy making frivolous lawsuits.

Ian Sturrock wrote:GW: We can't release the minis fans have been clamoring for for two years, because we're too busy making frivolous lawsuits.

Their entire R&D department is doing double duty as rules lawyers and legal lawyers drafting both 6th edition and legal documents with the same care and precision while their production department is busy casting those motions in Finecast for submission to the court (the finest legal documents IN THE WORLD!). Unfortunately, addendum sprues are missing and/or miscast and the judge keeps sending them back for replacements, thereby delaying the proceedings. This is, of course, entirely Chapterhouse's fault.

aka_mythos wrote:CH: To court, GW still hasn't shown us where we've specifically infringed; they've failed to produced physical models for comparison; GW's shown such an insincere attempt at its case our Pro Bono lawyers will pursue legal fees from GW.

Yes, but is this the part that weeble was describing being denied?

weeble1000 wrote:MINUTE entry before Honorable Matthew F. Kennelly:Motion to compel or for sanctions 78 is denied for the reasons stated in open court. Without that day's transcript, there's no indication as to why the motion was denied.

Is that what a "sanction 78" is? I was under the impression its was just a motion to compel under sanction... where the court instead of just asking someone to do something basically adds "or else". CH was denied the "or else."

Question for the lawyery types - do the court transcripts tend to turn up as accessible documents at any point?

Transcripts are transcripts and can be accessed via the means laid out by Weeble1000 a page or two above.

It probably takes a lawyer to interpret the legal terminology into everyday speech.

I have been a GW gamer since 2nd Ed and a RPG/hobby gamer since 1984. I have supported many companies as well as the smaller aftermarket groups. A similar situation to this was in the early days of TSR (D&D) with off-name companies making modules and supplements. Most of us bought from both companies until/unless we found the product to be truly useless or substandard. WOTC acquired D&D and took it down the open gaming license path and we saw a massive growth in that hobby, many low quality producers came and went but some top rate companies came out on the other end. During that time the die hard D&D gamers still purchased everything that WOTC published plus a healthy selection of the other producers.

I feel that GW could continue to be the leader in this industry even if they were to back off of and allow the other companies making conversion kits and bits. the market would flush out the bad quality in the course of a few years and we would see 2 or 3 small to medium upgrade manufacturers that had a decent following of people that keep on buying GW rules and models to convert. Unfortunately GWs attitude that they are 100% of the hobby has hurt them in this ever increasing digital world. They may end up opening the door for a flood of 3rd party companies depending on how this ends up in court.

Had GW went with a model similar to the OGL that wotc implemented they could have saved a ton of court wrangling and had more control. By setting guidelines like restricting the license to something like alternate pads/doors/whatever are fine but no copies of weapons like meltas or plasma guns. Or limiting how much of their original model must be used in each conversion product.

I have purchased plenty from CHS, Armorcast, Dark Art Minis, and others I will continue to buy quality products from GW and the aftermarket producers, as well as GW when they release more bugs or eldar that I need.

Sounds like we will see GW basaically do what they did to Blood Bowl. When 3rd party companies were making Star players, they basically removed all the star players GW has no models for from the rules.

"Oh, you liked filling holes and based your market off that? Oh looks like the new Tyranid codex has no Tervigon! What a waste... What? No one wants your model purely based on it's design? only to be 40k models? too bad. Look for new Space Wolves codex with no TWC next!"

Sad but that may be the position GW is taking because they feel that market for particular designs have been 'diluted'. Kill the unit and there is no issue.

If they're going to throw their toys out of the pram then let them. It's only hurting them in the long run as we know that an actual Tervigon/Tyrannofex model would sell like hot-cakes.

H.B.M.C. wrote:If they're going to throw their toys out of the pram then let them. It's only hurting them in the long run as we know that an actual Tervigon/Tyrannofex model would sell like hot-cakes.

They can just make a 6th edition "Stegofex" which has different rules and no competing models already on the market and squash the market by being first to the party. And then the Tyrannofex customs have no market.

Hence how they handled it with Blood bowl. We all lose.

theunicorn wrote:.... By setting guidelines like restricting the license to something like alternate pads/doors/whatever are fine but no copies of weapons like meltas or plasma guns. Or limiting how much of their original model must be used in each conversion product. .....

the trick is GW already does this. You can't play on a GW table or a GW tournament unless you have GW/FW models.... so.... this line is kind of moot. It would be a nice point, except I don't see the point of it. The last thing I need after going to a GW tournament is more crap from GW as the prize.

Further to the above, its nonsense for GW to start killing units out of codices and start turning generations faster. I have a feeling if they start doing that, people will get fed up and either stay at the edition they joined or move to another company altogether. I have about 6 armies now, and I'm happy. I am not about to start updating all six armies each time a new codex rears its ugly head. I mean, the unit-kill idea makes a certain amount of sense. Look at the tyranid carnifex broods: all must have identical equipment. Now, the only reason they'd do that is to drive the appreciation of carniebroods down and drive sale of the new models. I have already stepped away from GW as a customer from the crap service I've gotten, then decided not to come back after the price increases (and have stuck only to second-hand or bit dealers). It also makes no sense for GW to kill uinits out of a codex. Those moulds cost millions, and to run the machines for two years and then scrap them...... thats expensive.

What would really kill the aftermarket manufacture is if GW actually went and made all the parts/components for everything to begin with. Of course, GW does not do this, so hence we have an aftermarket. One of the reasons we are here is because GW permits and encourages creativity in peoples army (Well.... its capacity and efforts in encouragment are.... "lack lustre" at best at the present) but not everyone is capable of sculpting everything, doesnt want to do it, or just likes someone else's version better.

Mind you, have a bit of a think, look back over the past twenty years, it looks like a slow creep/attack on GW's IP. Instead of taking it as a compliment and trying to disguise the attaching of umbilical cords to everything as a blessing and approval, GW has taken the gollum approach of hissing "preciousssssssss" and scrabbling at everything it can lay its hands on. This entire mess actually reminds me of the schoolyard, "Man, what's with these posers, I used to drink milk before it was cool".

and if GW does the same thing it did with blood bowl, then you will have piles of upset customers who will stay at where the are at. I have a friend who played 3rd 40k all the way through 4th, then upgraded to fifth edition when he found out we played, just not the old version. He would have been quite happy carrying on with 3rd ed and would have done so. The interest might plummet, but tyrannofex manufactuers will still have a market. Take a look at the Red Terror. There's no character in the nid codex, but im sure people still buy them (i found the model a much better looking ravener than any other ravener to date)

nkelsch wrote:Sad but that may be the position GW is taking because they feel that market for particular designs have been 'diluted'. Kill the unit and there is no issue.

Silently hoping someone makes non-Space-Marines "Naughty customer. No dinner and up to your room."

H.B.M.C. wrote:If they're going to throw their toys out of the pram then let them. It's only hurting them in the long run as we know that an actual Tervigon/Tyrannofex model would sell like hot-cakes.

GW is not afraid of losing sales

This thread, remarkably, has made it to 44 pages - most of which have been filled with good information and discussion about the topic on hand.

It is starting to veer a bit off track.

Please keep everything on topic, and avoid posts that might otherwise be considered Spam.

Thanks!

One thing to consider is that the Ogre Kingdoms release may be the first time that a GW army had all models available at realease and completely no metals. GW may have learned, or maybe not.

Personally, I think trying to restrict the 3rd party bits makers just gives GW bad press and restricts the overall variety of what is available. Who wants tyranid warriors to all look the same with the same weapons or why not have wheeled chimaera kits? If a company produces something that GW does not and actually adds something to the hobby, it's a shame to try and kill that as it hurts the hobby.

I guess we'll have to wait until Nov. to see what happens next but I foresee another delay tactic since neither side seems to seriously consider a settlement an option.

Alpharius wrote:This thread, remarkably, has made it to 44 pages - most of which have been filled with good information and discussion about the topic on hand.
It is starting to veer a bit off track.

It is starting to veer off track, because Insaniac locked the appropriate spin-off thread immediately (having 300+ hits after being locked), so this thread is the only other option. Would be good to reopen the other thread to keep this thread clean, esp. as new information emerged on GD Australia.

I just thought I would clarify some of my earlier posts, but of course am concsious of derailing this thread so don't want to go too off topic.

I have also decided not to post further on the subject as I do not want to add too much speculation or more importantly get anyone into trouble.

Anything I have said may well just be conjecture or the opinion of an individual, but as they are still deeply involved with the company I do not want to implicate them.

So I will expand upon my earlier comments but then leave it at that.

GW do not essentially have a problem with third party products or companies that produce them and in most cases these companies enhance GW sales as you need GW kits to use them.

The majority of third party companies have also been very careful not to use GW trademarks, or step over the line with GW's IP.

Generic backpacks or vehicle accessories do not infringe GW copyright, neither do seperate heads that can be used on GW figures for example.

Even companies who make more specific products such as Space Marine accessories have been very careful to not directly market them as such.

Galactic Space Knights are not Space Marines, and Galactic Space Knight shoulder pads with Templar Crosses are not Black Templar Shoulder pads.

However when a third party manufacturer starts selling Salamnder Shoulder pads, or Space Marine Black Templar Rhino doors they are crossing the line, but only to the point where GW would advise them to change their terminology on their online store and to stop using GW trademarks.

Unfortunately Chapterhouse flouted this, and even posted in the news section of their website that they were doing nothing wrong and that GW should essentially take them to court (I'm paraphrasing).

However that still wasn't the main problem with Chapterhouse.

Once they moved away from creating after market products compatible with GW kits and started producing original sculpts based on GW IP they crossed a line.

In terms of US copyright a concept or idea cannot be copyrighted, so the idea of a Doom of Malantai model, or a Tervigon, or a jetbike seer council weren't protected until the models were released.

When Chapterhouse beat GW to it by making these models it appeared it may affect future GW releases and on legal advice GW held back some of their releases until they could prove unequivecally that they had total ownership.

This of course will be decided in court, but in defence of GW Chapterhouse bought this on themselves, they were given the opportunity to comply with GW's requests, but chose instead to go to court.

In terms of how this affects GW some explanation of how the company plans its releases is required.

There is a reason GW releases miniatures in waves.

It is purely a business reason dictated to them by their financial department.

A company like GW needs consistent sales throughout the year, and also needs to show year on year growth. It is a public company and therefore very conscious of its share prices, and consistent sales are by far the best way to keep investors happy.

If they release lots of cool new stuff all in one go then they willl get sales bubbles, which look bad on their financials. It is better for them to have releases spread across the year which therefore spreads their sales.

There is also the fact that they will have invested much time and care in their new releases, and to release them all in one hit menas they will not stay fresh, but also means they will need to create more new releases to spread out that year which they do not have the resources for.

It is also common to have a release planned and to hold it back until it makes more financial sense, and this is why some expected releases seem to disappear, only to reappear later when the company needs to make some sales during a slower quarter.

However releasing figures in waves can leave huge gaps in Codexes, and not every gamer is prepared to wait. This didn't used to be a problem as people would buy GW kits and convert them, but now they can simply buy them from third party companies.

GW are fullly aware of this, and are looking at the way they release things, and make changes. Dark Eldar were an example of this, with the entire range being released in a comparatively short space of time. They were released in waves, but they were very close together so that there were no long waits. Ogre Kingdoms seem to be following the same format, with their models being released over two quarters.

However this does mean that there will be sales bubbles and GW then have to make up the shortfall elsewhere. This unfortunately often results in a price increase which GW then get a lot of flak for.

And it's also possible that Dark Eldar were too successful. Their sales beat expectation, but may be the reason another release has been put on hold (won't say which one but I think it's obvious). Having all your 40K sales in one year would then result in negative growth the following year unless GW had more products to release.

As I say most of what I am saying is based on conversations with somebody who works for GW, and may just be his or her speculation or opinion but I originally posted this in the rumours section for that reason.

I just wanted peopl to see the bigger picture where the Chapterhouse lawsuit was concerned. I don't want to demonise them, I just think if they had gone down the same path as other third party companies they could have avoided the litigation, but they decided to let it get to court, which wasn't GWs intention, but they felt they had no choice but to protect their interests.

GW have a history of being brutish about their defence of IP. There are numerous examples of them sending C&Ds on spurious grounds to small manufacturers and making them remove products through fear of being ruined through an expensive legal process.

It was only a matter of time before someone stood up to them.

StraightSilver wrote:
Once they moved away from creating after market products compatible with GW kits and started producing original sculpts based on GW IP they crossed a line.

In terms of US copyright a concept or idea cannot be copyrighted, so the idea of a Doom of Malantai model, or a Tervigon, or a jetbike seer council weren't protected until the models were released.

When Chapterhouse beat GW to it by making these models it appeared it may affect future GW releases and on legal advice GW held back some of their releases until they could prove unequivecally that they had total ownership.

Maybe I am still missing something, but I don't understand why this would be a concern for GW.

If I were a write a book called "Harry Potter and the return of Voldemort" and try to sell it to people, would JK Rowling's lawyers nail me in a heartbeat? They sure would. And certainly it wouldn't stop her later releasing book of the same name, even if I got there first. Because Rowling has copyright for "Harry Potter". The fact that she doesn't have a copyright for the underlying idea (wizard kid in a wiz school) is irrelevant.

GW does not have copyright for "scary biomechanical space monster" (indeed, they were the ones who copied the concept elsewhere). But they do have copyright for the names "Tyranid" or "Tervigon" used in that context.

StraightSilver wrote:
This of course will be decided in court, but in defence of GW Chapterhouse bought this on themselves, they were given the opportunity to comply with GW's requests, but chose instead to go to court.

This is priceless phrasing. How gracious of GW to give people the opportunity to comply. Wouldn't it have just been better for everyone if Chapterhouse just complied with their order? Because it wasn't a request. It was a threat. But it's mean little Chapterhouse's fault this went to court.

I just wanted peopl to see the bigger picture where the Chapterhouse lawsuit was concerned. I don't want to demonise them, I just think if they had gone down the same path as other third party companies they could have avoided the litigation, but they decided to let it get to court, which wasn't GWs intention, but they felt they had no choice but to protect their interests.

I think from all the discussion of the filings and the court proceedings so far it is quite apparent that GW never intended to go to court. Chapterhouse was supposed to fold just like all the others. Chapterhouse called GW's bluff. Of course, if it weren't for the pro bono representation Chapterhouse got, I think this would have been resolved already, much to Chapterhouse's detriment. Too often in our courts, cases like these aren't decided on the merits. They're decided by the resources available to the respective parties. That's been GW's strategy to date. Now they've been caught with their pants down. Their overly aggressive claims are finally being tested in court and there is risk that the emperor will be revealed to have no clothes.

StraightSilver wrote:However when a third party manufacturer starts selling Salamnder Shoulder pads, or Space Marine Black Templar Rhino doors they are crossing the line, but only to the point where GW would advise them to change their terminology on their online store and to stop using GW trademarks.

Unfortunately Chapterhouse flouted this, and even posted in the news section of their website that they were doing nothing wrong and that GW should essentially take them to court (I'm paraphrasing).

However that still wasn't the main problem with Chapterhouse.

Once they moved away from creating after market products compatible with GW kits and started producing original sculpts based on GW IP they crossed a line.

In terms of US copyright a concept or idea cannot be copyrighted, so the idea of a Doom of Malantai model, or a Tervigon, or a jetbike seer council weren't protected until the models were released.

When Chapterhouse beat GW to it by making these models it appeared it may affect future GW releases and on legal advice GW held back some of their releases until they could prove unequivecally that they had total ownership.

(...)

I just wanted peopl to see the bigger picture where the Chapterhouse lawsuit was concerned. I don't want to demonise them, I just think if they had gone down the same path as other third party companies they could have avoided the litigation, but they decided to let it get to court, which wasn't GWs intention, but they felt they had no choice but to protect their interests.

Thanks for the well thought out post.
Now we are getting to the center of the problem.

But we need two points of view here: GW and ROW including Chapterhouse. You presented the GW view that somehow doesn't fit the reaction of the real world.

1.) Background fact is that Chapterhouse guys are fans of the 40k universe and the products GW releases. They obviously try to enhance the hobby, not to harm GW. They have no intention to sue GW once GW also releases a tervigon kit or a Rhino Mk.1 conversion kit. They may have said in court that if someone could sue for doing a Tervigon kit, it would be Chapterhouse according to existing law. That's a fact that GW obviously wasn't aware of. But Chapterhouse never would do that, as they like GW kits like most people here.

2.) The use of names was immediately changed to something more cautious after GW sued them, no problem with that. But that was not what GW was after: They demanded the destruction of all moulds and a financial compensation. They just can't explain until this day why Chapterhouse should do that. And GW's expensive lawyers are working on that for almost a year now, while Chapterhouse's lawyers are free of charge.

3.) Chapterhouse did nothing wrong according to existing law, and GW was not prepared to actually make a concrete accusation. So if Chapterhouse said so on their website, they were right, no need to demonise them. If GW felt forced "to defend their rights", it was not consistent with US law. So unfortunately GW's claims are indeed unjustified and they will lose this expensive lawsuit, probably bringing less friendly manufacturers into the arena and creating a real problem for the first time. If GW now listens to their legal advisors, they should take into account, that these people have no clue and created problems GW never had before.

4.) Concerning the release policy:
a.) It was a huge mistake to not release the most important new Tyranid unit, the tervigon (but the pyrovore instead). And to not release it within a year after that. And to give no perspective for a release. Makes the army almost unplayable, if it were not for the help of companies like Chapterhouse.
b.) Most people are not interested in non-GW models. People that buy non-GW models often also buy the GW-models when they are released. So having announced second waves for less important models would be the rational response to dealing with aftermarket products, with almost no financial losses.
c.) To be fair: People are waiting for the important "Farseer council on jetbike" model for at least 10 years (3rd edition Codex 2001), for female farseer models much longer. Not listening to customer demands and not releasing models for essential units for 10+ years is a mistake, and companies like Chapterhouse are dealing with this demand. Keeping new releases secret doesn't help, when GW doesn't release those units for 10+ years.

GW policy and their legal advisors created the problem. And their current attempts at solving these problems (secrecy, no marketing, no releases, sueing fan-sites, starting lawsuits they can't win, firing every open mind, killing internal and external communication,demonising conversions, ...) make it obviously worse. Like a true paranoid, they are in a downward spiral to a more and more isolated fantasy world that doesn't fit the real world, with declining sales and customer numbers a concrete side effect.

So much for now.

Kroothawk wrote:
2.) The use of names was immediately changed to something more cautious after GW sued them, no problem with that. But that was not what GW was after: They demanded the destruction of all moulds and a financial compensation. They just can't explain until this day why Chapterhouse should do that. And GW's expensive lawyers are working on that for almost a year now, while Chapterhouse's lawyers are free of charge.

3.) Chapterhouse did nothing wrong according to existing law, and GW was not prepared to actually make a concrete accusation. So if Chapterhouse said so on their website, they were right, no need to demonise them. If GW felt forced "to defend their rights", it was not consistent with US law. So unfortunately GW's claims are indeed unjustified and they will lose this expensive lawsuit, probably bringing less friendly manufacturers into the arena and creating a real problem for the first time. If GW now listens to their legal advisors, they should take into account, that these people have no clue and created problems GW never had before.

Kroothawk has hit the nail on the head and this has always been my personal understanding of the issue. GW was never interested in protecting their IP in the first place otherwise product name changes would have resolved the matter out of court. Given the compensation demands and the nature GW other legal activities (like the manticore/lamassu incident), I’d say GW is against any form of third competition that treads into “GW Hobby” territory. The manticore/lamassu head is actually a really a good example as I dare say the only reason why GW wanted the manticore head taken down is because they were intended to release a lamassu model for Storm of Magic (even though both products had different names).

I definitely agree with theunicorn that GW should go down the Open Gaming License Path. For as long as I’ve followed GW, there have always been issues with product gaps (usually with non loyalist forces) as well as a lack of focus on non loyalist releases. Given the general pattern of 5th edition releases, 6th edition will probably going to be a lot worse (I don’t believe the Games Day spin).

[quote=StraightSilver

I just wanted peopl to see the bigger picture where the Chapterhouse lawsuit was concerned. I don't want to demonise them, I just think if they had gone down the same path as other third party companies they could have avoided the litigation, but they decided to let it get to court, which wasn't GWs intention, but they felt they had no choice but to protect their interests.

poda_t wrote:

candy.man wrote:(I don’t believe the Games Day spin).

??? what is this???

If its anything like the failcost or the price adjustments, or the 6th edition no more ward shenanigans then..... well.... im still curious

I believe the Games Day spin being referred to is the rumour that the CH case is preventing the release of an alleged Tyranid second wave, Space Wolf TW Cavalry, etc - a transparent attempt to turn CH into the bad guys, instead of recognising that the issue is GW's on marketing "strategy"...