Chapterhouse Lawsuit - Settlement reached, Appeals withdrawn - Pg 234! Chapterhouse to re-open store

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**Revenent Reiko**

Thanks Kroothawk (and props to the poster from Warseer as well).

It does sort of seem like things are going downhill fast for GW doesnt it?...

**Kroothawk**

GW is now afraid to make a tervigon model because Chapterhouse might claim copyright because it made the first model.
This is the reason for the 2nd Tyranid wave being set on hold. A side effect of the lawsuit.

**rigeld2**

Kroothawk wrote:GW is now afraid to make a tervigon model because Chapterhouse might claim copyright because it made the first model.
This is the reason for the 2nd Tyranid wave being set on hold. A side effect of the lawsuit.

Proof/link? And (with my understanding) that's like saying anyone that made their own model might claim copyright infringement. As long as it's dissimilar enough to the CHS one, there's no issue.

**Backfire**

Kroothawk wrote:GW is now afraid to make a tervigon model because Chapterhouse might claim copyright because it made the first model.
This is the reason for the 2nd Tyranid wave being set on hold. A side effect of the lawsuit.

I very much doubt this is true. "Tervigon" name is copyrighted by GW, and unless by enormous coincidence, GW and CH Tervigons look almost exactly the same, what possible basis would CH have for copyright infringement? Only possible reason I could think for above to be true if CH had filed some sort of counter-suit as is common in these cases ("well, you are copying OUR stuff!") but we would have heard of that, surely?

**-Loki-**

Highly doubtful. But if its true, I'll be endlessly pissed at Chapterhouse. Being responsible for GW holding back a legitimate wave of releases that an army needs is not a way to get into the communities good books, even if you're trying to 'sock it to the Man'.

**RiTides**

Right... that doesn't make sense. GW being sued would be the same as their suing CH... and clearly, that's not working out so well!

If GW wants to use it as a tool to blame and/or just steer clear of any legal mess entirely is another matter. Wouldn't make sense, though...

And until then, folks can just use third party conversions onto carnifexes... not that that's the best solution...

**spaceelf**

It looks like GW is showing its casual gaming roots; lots of beer drinking and loosely worded documents. Remember the most important rule is to have fun.

I would expect GW to pull their act together.

**Backfire**

Really though, I wouldn't read too much on to those comments on Warseer, they look somewhat, eh, biased.

**AgeOfEgos**

What I would be curious about is;

Are the attorneys for Games Workshop incompetent--or is Games Workshop's position simply untenable?

I ask, as if the posters are correct and the requests made by CH's firm rather expected--you would think Games Workshop would have answered all of these questions internally (and prepared to answer them).....before filing suit.

**Kanluwen**

Considering Mengil's Manhide Manflayers were delayed for quite a few years because of issues over the "rights", it's not entirely unbelievable.

**Kroothawk**

rigeld2 wrote:
Kroothawk wrote:GW is now afraid to make a tervigon model because Chapterhouse might claim copyright because it made the first model.
This is the reason for the 2nd Tyranid wave being set on hold. A side effect of the lawsuit.

Proof/link?

See this unfortunately closed thread. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/400952.page
(having about 100 hits within 2 hours inspite of being closed, showing the interest)

-Loki- wrote:Highly doubtful. But if its true, I'll be endlessly pissed at Chapterhouse. Being responsible for GW holding back a legitimate wave of releases that an army needs is not a way to get into the communities good books, even if you're trying to 'sock it to the Man'.

Please read again: I said GW is afraid, not that Chapterhouse plans to sue (and they never would have thought of it if GW hadn't sued them first without even having the copyright for the name AFAIK). GW legal is not of this world, so making others responsible for GW legal's views is missing the point. But technically, Chapterhouse couldn't copy a GW sculpt (because there is none), but GW could copy a Chapterhouse one. FW also making a Rhino Mk I conversion kit is maybe testing the legal waters.

**H.B.M.C.**

I'm going to go ahead and quote another poster from a different thread, as it pretty much covers what I think:

JOHIRA wrote:If I was a huge multi-national gaming company that wanted to convince everyone in my niche market that my company represented the whole of the hobby (rather than a single company providing a single set of miniatures as part of the hobby), having a competitor providing cheap alternatives to my models would doubly-vex me. First, because the competitor is getting money and I'm not. But secondly, because players going to the competitor for the models I don't release are getting exposed to models for other games, and might eventually drive my players away from my game. (For the sake of this hypothetical lets assume I'm not aware that players are already fleeing my game in droves for rival companies' games.)

And if I was such a company, I would use my army of lawyers to ruthlessly harass any company whose products remotely resemble mine so as to protect myself from this. However, it would be very important that I not allow any case to go to court unless it results in a guaranteed win for my side. Because going to court would publish for all of my competitors exactly where the line they can't cross in being like my products is if I lose. And I don't want my rivals to know where that line is. I want them to err on the side of caution and stay well away from my designs. So I would want to bully other companies with the threat of lawsuits, but always get them to settle out of court.

But also, if there was ever a case where a rival got to a model design ahead of me, I would be very concerned about the risk of them taking me to court based on the similarity of our designs. Not, mind you, because I'd be afraid of them winning. My army of lawyers would have already informed me well ahead of this scenario of exactly where the legal line is. What would be problematic for me however is the prospect of me winning. Should such a case go to trial, my company winning a case of supposedly copying the designs of a rival company who release a model for my game before I did would publish where exactly the line that marks where tribute ends and copyright infringement begins just as clearly as if my rivals had won a case of copying my models. It would just as strongly invite rival companies to make products for my game and open the floodgates of 3rd party products that compete with my products. So it would be very important for me to find some way of dragging this process out until the rival runs out of money and we have to settle out of court.

Now, if during all of this, if either because of fear of being taken to court or because my company's busy release schedule had no room for the products anyway some models dearly desired by my customers weren't released, I wouldn't be above releasing a rumor (unofficially of course) that says the reason fans can't get models for two very popular lines is because of the legal concerns with the 3rd party companies. Of course the rumor would be absolute hogwash- no way would my powerful company making "the finest miniatures in the world" be dictated to by some petty upstart. But if it makes some of my fans think the reason they can't get the products they want is because a mean old rival keeps stealing my ideas, so much the better. Pretend to be a victim, make the 3rd party look like a bully that is hurting the fans. Maybe if I can turn enough sentiment against the rival, I can sink their business before my case even makes it to court.

I want to be clear, that's what I would do. In no way am I claiming this is what any company is actually doing.

**Howard A Treesong**

Kroothawk wrote:FW also making a Rhino Mk I conversion kit is maybe testing the legal waters.

Except they own the original image of it.

And yes, it does sound like GW are trying to give the impression that CH are hurting the community by upsetting their release schedule. Though that may be a conspiracy theory too far.

**-Loki-**

Kroothawk wrote:Please read again: I said GW is afraid, not that Chapterhouse plans to sue (and they never would have thought of it if GW hadn't sued them first without even having the copyright for the name AFAIK). GW legal is not of this world, so making others responsible for GW legal's views is missing the point. But technically, Chapterhouse couldn't copy a GW sculpt (because there is none), but GW could copy a Chapterhouse one. FW also making a Rhino Mk I conversion kit is maybe testing the legal waters.

I didn't misunderstand you. I really don't give two hoots about chapterhouse - their stuff is pretty universally terrible. If them, and this lawsuit, is the reason for the Tyranid second wave being delayed, they're donkey-caves.

**Howard A Treesong**

-Loki- wrote:
Kroothawk wrote:Please read again: I said GW is afraid, not that Chapterhouse plans to sue (and they never would have thought of it if GW hadn't sued them first without even having the copyright for the name AFAIK). GW legal is not of this world, so making others responsible for GW legal's views is missing the point. But technically, Chapterhouse couldn't copy a GW sculpt (because there is none), but GW could copy a Chapterhouse one. FW also making a Rhino Mk I conversion kit is maybe testing the legal waters.

I didn't misunderstand you. I really don't give two hoots about chapterhouse - their stuff is pretty universally terrible. If them, and this lawsuit, is the reason for the Tyranid second wave being delayed, they're donkey-caves.

How is it CH's fault? GW decide what to release. No one forced them to sue. No one is forcing them to withhold releases. They could have just left CH alone and not created this mess for themselves. No point in beating CH up over it.

I guarantee if the worst happens and GW lose and lose control of some copyrights there will be people moaning that mean nasty CH have stolen it off them. They'll ignore that it was fought fairly in court. If GW lose it means that they were claiming rights they weren't entitled to.

**derek**

So is CHS also to blame for the horrible Nid FAQ? Or should we start blaming the INAT because they FAQ'd first?

**poda_t**

the delay of the tyranid second wave is nonsense. Its not like GW couldnt have the stuff copyrighted as a reslut of this case. There is also a steaming pile of other stuff that was released by GW cough *dreadfleet* cough, that says, GW, in its eternal wisdom, can't be bothered to care about the gaps in the tyranid army right now. Theres the tomb kings update as well and not to mention the failcastification of their entire line. There are about a million other things causing delays right now, and the CHS ka-fuffle is no one of them.

also, forgeworld can do whatever is bloody damn well pleases because it has a license to do so from GW. FW does not apply as an analogous case because it does business directly with GW. CHS has no license, pays no royalties which is where the issue lays.

Having ordered from CHS, i can say that their stuff is decent quality, and it just as advertised: compatible, not a replacement. I had to pair up all of the parts from CHS because it would look like kack if I mix-matched certain parts (pauldrons specifically). All of the parts needed cleaning and filing, but this is universal across miniature assembly.

I am also oh so sure that you could do a much better job doing some of the sclupts/decals yourself, but others are either less skilled or disinclined in doing it themselves, and have no inclination to purchase the alternative pads GW produces at extortionate GW rates.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Howard A Treesong wrote:

How is it CH's fault? GW decide what to release. No one forced them to sue. No one is forcing them to withhold releases. They could have just left CH alone and not created this mess for themselves. No point in beating CH up over it.

I guarantee if the worst happens and GW lose and lose control of some copyrights there will be people moaning that mean nasty CH have stolen it off them. They'll ignore that it was fought fairly in court. If GW lose it means that they were claiming rights they weren't entitled to.

and don't get me started on this. Just what does GW have that it created itself? its already been mentioned earlier in thread that GW has "borrowed" heavilly from every other universe or piece of IP they could lay their hands on. Even the black library books are copies.

**-Loki-**

derek wrote:So is CHS also to blame for the horrible Nid FAQ? Or should we start blaming the INAT because they FAQ'd first?

Please point to where I previously mentioned the FAQ? Because I didn't think I did. I think you're attempting to put words in my post.

**Pyro-Druid**

In regards to the nids holdup, if GW didn't have the rumour blackout and were instead releasing stuff like sneak peeks at concept art or greens, would that have given them enough grounds to a) defend against CH attempting to sue for copying their model (proof of concept or something along those lines), and b) claim CH breached copyright by basing their model on images/greens X, Y and Z?

**Deathly Angel**

^^This.^^ That notion is IMO very possible.

**Sidstyler**

Howard A Treesong wrote:I guarantee if the worst happens and GW lose and lose control of some copyrights there will be people moaning that mean nasty CH have stolen it off them. They'll ignore that it was fought fairly in court. If GW lose it means that they were claiming rights they weren't entitled to.

Yeah, they'll ignore the fact that this is GW's own god-damned fault. They thought they were going to come in all big and bad and crush CH under their legal and monetary weight, but it kinda backfired on them and now they just look like fething idiots. They should have just left well-enough alone, now look at the mess they're in, they can't even prove that they own the copyrights on their work. I don't see how anyone can possibly take them seriously after this.

**derek**

-Loki- wrote:
derek wrote:So is CHS also to blame for the horrible Nid FAQ? Or should we start blaming the INAT because they FAQ'd first?

Please point to where I previously mentioned the FAQ? Because I didn't think I did. I think you're attempting to put words in my post.

I think you're being overly defensive. I was using sarcasm to point out the absurdity that comes from assuming that GW makes decisions based on anything but whatever they usually make decisions based on (which for all we know could be chicken bones in goats blood).

I didn't even quote you.

**Adam LongWalker**

AgeOfEgos wrote:What I would be curious about is;

Are the attorneys for Games Workshop incompetent--or is Games Workshop's position simply untenable?

I ask, as if the posters are correct and the requests made by CH's firm rather expected--you would think Games Workshop would have answered all of these questions internally (and prepared to answer them).....before filing suit.

Have you ever notice how Games workshop seems to be incredibly cheap on all aspects of their company?

You want quality personnel, you are going to have to pay for it.

**Kilkrazy**

Howard A Treesong wrote:Perhaps GW really don't know who owns the copyright on their own stuff. Wouldn't be the first time they've lost information.

The copyright of individual sculpts would depend on the contractual arrangements made with the sculptor who made them. If GW engaged a freelance sculptor to do a range of models, they would have had to make a contract specifying that the copyright of the models would pass to GW, else it would rest with the freelancer.

I can well imagine that GW would have been a bit disorganised in the early days before they turned into a multi-million-pound international corporation, and thereby have lost the info concerning various models.

It comes to the same thing in the end, though. If they can't demonstrate their right to a copyright they can't accuse someone else of violating it.

**Howard A Treesong**

Kilkrazy wrote:
Howard A Treesong wrote:Perhaps GW really don't know who owns the copyright on their own stuff. Wouldn't be the first time they've lost information.

The copyright of individual sculpts would depend on the contractual arrangements made with the sculptor who made them. If GW engaged a freelance sculptor to do a range of models, they would have had to make a contract specifying that the copyright of the models would pass to GW, else it would rest with the freelancer.

I can well imagine that GW would have been a bit disorganised in the early days before they turned into a multi-million-pound international corporation, and thereby have lost the info concerning various models.

It comes to the same thing in the end, though. If they can't demonstrate their right to a copyright they can't accuse someone else of violating it.

It is possible. For all we know the reason some models are no longer made is because they don't have the rights or know they have to pay royalties of some sort. They wouldn't be the first company to get mixed up about what they actually own I have heard of other examples. I imagine they are a lot more professional about it now but 20-30 years ago maybe they weren't as careful about keeping full records of as diligent about securing copyright. Ironically, if they thought the stuff was too generic or 'inspired' by other stuff, maybe they didn't see the point.

I know everyone points out the 'Chaos Star', but really it's just proof they are guessing as to what they own, or hoping no one will notice they don't.

**Kroothawk**

From now on, Codices and army books are only sold if you agree to sign an NDA. People not signing it as well can't have a glimpse at it, even in games and tournaments

BTW as the mods didn't reopen the thread in question (even with ca 200 hits after closure), here a repost of the relevant quotes:

StraightSilver wrote:And Eldar will be a ways off just yet. Ther are all sorts of legal issues with Eldar and Tyranids that has meant they have been delayed, but that is a complicated issue for another thread unfortunately.
(...)
A lot of GW releases are on hold until the whole Chapterhouse mess is resolved. There are issues over copyright which until resolved mean GW won't release some stuff until it's all over which won't be any time soon. This specifically relates to two models in the Chapterhouse range, but I don't want to derail this thread with that. However GW won't release some models but not others and so is having to hold off until they can release them all as a wave.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:So wait, does that mean Tyranid players should be venting at the court case for a lack of a second wave.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Is that just speculation, or is that known for a fact?

I cannot obviously corroborate it, but I have heard that is the case from credible sources, but again stuff said over a pint isn't always that reliable, but these are people that would normally know.
And yes that is apparently why the Tyranid wave has been held up and also why GW may never make Thunderwolves. Basically the third party companies that got there first can now challenge GW over copyright, not something they would ever allow to happen.

MrMystery wrote:Source for that? Seems....odd. Given the time it takes GW to get from concept to shelf, I'd have thought releasing it would strengthen their case?
Unless of course Chapterhouse have suspiciously identical models? But this just my wild speculation!

As I say it may only be a rumour, and unfortunately I can't specifically say where most of my rumours have come from in case I drop anyone in it but they do work for the company and aren't a black or red shirt.
And it is specifically a couple of things, but these are fairly important ones.
It's just that Chapterhouse is attesting that it owns the copyright on a couple of GW concepts because it produced the models first. GW are challenging that but don't want to release their models in case Chapterhouse then challenge ownership.
Of course always take with a pinch of salt, but rumours are rumours I guess.

Kilkrazy wrote:
Skinnereal wrote:Names are copyrighted, but shapes aren't.
They can make a Space Marine, and call it a Galactic Soldier, but GW gets to stomp about and shout about it, like they are.

It's more complicated than that.
Take the Chapter House Doom Seer. It isn't part of the GW vs Chapter House case but it makes a good example.
There isn't a single element of the Doom Seer's design that isn't (a) different to the GW Far Seer models and (b) modelled on existing historical designs.
Despite that it is clearly a "not" Far Seer, based on its overall similarity to GW Far Seer models, if you have seen a GW Far Seer first.
The question the court must answer is whether GW's co-option of historical elements into an overall design is sufficiently original as to create an entirely new copyrightable work, and secondly if this has been achieved, have CH violated the putative copyright by copying the overall design with different individual elements.
You can see how complex these questions can be.

**agnosto**

This just in. All car manufacturers are withholding releasing electric and hybrind cars because other companies make batteries. Energizer threatens to send bunny hit squad if cars are put into production.

**ToI**

agnosto wrote:This just in. All car manufacturers are withholding releasing electric and hybrind cars because other companies make batteries. Energizer threatens to send bunny hit squad if cars are put into production.

This is entirely unhelpful...

OT - I am interested to see what comes of this after the November court date for the suit. I am hoping that this case gets resolved sooner rather than later and that GW realizes they are losing more than they are gaining by doing this.

**weeble1000**

MINUTE entry before Honorable Matthew F. Kennelly:Motion to compel or for sanctions 78 is denied for the reasons stated in open court. Without that day's transcript, there's no indication as to why the motion was denied.

**warboss**

AgeOfEgos wrote:What I would be curious about is;

Are the attorneys for Games Workshop incompetent--or is Games Workshop's position simply untenable?

I ask, as if the posters are correct and the requests made by CH's firm rather expected--you would think Games Workshop would have answered all of these questions internally (and prepared to answer them).....before filing suit.

It seems that GW's vaunted legal team is not made up of actual lawyers but instead consists of same rules lawyers that comprise their development team and make the air-tight and finely honed tourney quality rules we've come to love in YMDC. When the judge asked GW to clarify their position, the apparently provided their typical style FAQ/erratta which appears to be lacking the detail necessary to cover the questions asked (shocking, I know!). Perhaps Yak and the INAT council could help GW draft a revised court FAQ filing for GW. Apparently no one also mentioned to the judge that the most important rule should apply in court and that the opposing parties should just d6 the decision if they can't agree.