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2017/06/07 01:10:45
Subject: New Necron Tactica Thread - 8th ed. leak discussion pg.25 / new stats mathhammer pg.29
Make a small pile of the molded ones and a single real one on the top with his peg, so it looks like he's jumping out from the swarm.
Ok, so to be clear, the mold is made out of greenstuff or not? And do you fill the mold with greenstuff? Those scarabs looked like they were made out of greenstuff.
Oh, yeah, sorry,
Scarabs are made out of Greenstuff. Mold is Instamold (or hot glue, if you want to experiment).
Like was mentioned above, you can make some molds out of greenstuff, too, but it doesn't work as well.
78zrider wrote: Are doom scythes considered bad. I know they are a decent amount of points but I have the urge to run 2 of them and shoot stuff with that s10 ray
Since it's a Heavy weapon, you'll be hitting on 4's with it. I tried a Doom Scythe in a game, and it wasn't too impressive. But definitely give it a go and get a feel for them. They're fun even if not always effective.
2017/06/07 01:18:30
Subject: New Necron Tactica Thread - 8th ed. leak discussion pg.25 / new stats mathhammer pg.29
78zrider wrote: Are doom scythes considered bad. I know they are a decent amount of points but I have the urge to run 2 of them and shoot stuff with that s10 ray
I want to say they're bad. The Death Ray is Heavy, so you'll always be a - 1 to hit it, and it is random shots. So... Same gun as the DArk but shorter range, worse hit, and has to move... It's probably fine, but I think the DArk is just a better choice for the role.
What about using a lord with the warrior blobs for morale reroll. Seems like that and a cryptek with an Gark makes a wall of warriors that doesn't go away
78zrider wrote: What about using a lord with the warrior blobs for morale reroll. Seems like that and a cryptek with an Gark makes a wall of warriors that doesn't go away
Yeah I think the Lord is a bit undervalued. With LD10 we're a bit more resilient against Morale tests, but we'll still take them, and a reroll can prevent you from losing a whole unit. Plus they're no slouches in combat if you take the Scythe.
2017/06/07 02:41:09
Subject: New Necron Tactica Thread - 8th ed. leak discussion pg.25 / new stats mathhammer pg.29
Grimgold wrote: File another lesson under don't do math while tired. fixed a few glitches in the sheet.
So I finally got around to doing the math for consecutive rounds of regen while under fire from the original weapons, turns out that a ten man tac squad with bolters can't kill a ten man warrior squad, not with average rolls anyway. Same for a 5 man dev squad with las cannons. Those are both without a cryptek, or a barge.
The takeaway is that when It comes to the 20 man warrior blob a cryptek is overkill. Few things do enough damage quickly enough to overwhelm repair protocols for that large of a group, and those that do will be doing additional damage via battle shock. Without a cryptek it takes a sustained 7 dead warriors per round to be able to wipe them out, and that's after 7 rounds of shooting, assuming you pass all of your battle shock test. with battle shock it's probably 5 or 6 rounds ish. At those levels of casualties adding a cryptek is not going to offset further increase from battle shock. Crypteks are useful for Ghost arks, but can't keep up, they are also dead useful for small tough units like destroyers, but can't keep up. Even Illuminor Szeras is too slow to keep up with the units that would benefit most from him. Gonna have to think on that one.
Bot sure I really understand how you're calculating that. Just based off Tacs with Bolters?
Crypteks are worthwhile for Warriors because they give 5++, and if the opponent focuses more fire than just some S4 nothing guns, you'll want the RP boost.
It's not specifically for bolters, though it could be given enough shots. It's 7 dead necron warriors per turn, however it is they get killed. Lets start with something killing six necron warriors a round, 108 bolter shots per round as an example.
Round one: 20 warriors standing, 6 die from firing, one dies from battle shock, 13 remain standing. Round Two: on the necrons, 1/3 * 7 or 2 warriors get back up, bringing the standing total to 15, incoming fire kills six, battle shock gets another, of them 9 remain Round three: On necrons turn 1/3 * 11 or 4 warriors get back up bringing the standing total to 13, incoming fire kills six of them, battle shock gets another 6 remain Round Four: On Necron turn 1/3 * 14 or 4 get back up bringing the total to 10, incoming fire gets six more and battle shock gets another. 3 remain Round Five: On necron turn 1/3 * 17 or 6 get back up bringing the total to 9, incoming fire gets another 6 and battle shock gets 1 more , 2 remain Round six: On necron turn 1/3 * 18 or six get back up bringing the total to 8, incoming fire gets anotehr six, battle shock gets another, 1 remains and game ends.
Final Tally 42 necrons warriors killed, 648 bolter shots fired. To put that in perspective it takes less bolter shots to kill a monolith. Crpytek doesn't help here because they survive, he might help with an extra warrior or two up a round for the extra shooting. if we just increase the number of warriors killed to 7 per round and add a crpytek here is what it looks like:
Round one: 20 warriors standing, incoming fire kills 7 and battle shot gets another 2 11 warriors standing. Round two: 9 * 1/2 or 5 get back up, bringing the total to 16, shooting kills 7 more and battle shock gets another 2, 7 remain. Round three: 13 * 1/2 get back up or 6, brining the standing total to 13 shooting kills 7 more and battle shock gets another for a total of 5 still standing Round four: 15 * 1/2 or 9 get back up, bringing the total to 14, shooting kills 7 and battle shock gets 2 more for a total of five remaining. Round five: 15 * 1/2 or 8 get back up for a total standing of 13, shooting kills 7 and battle shock gets 2 more, 4 remain. Round six: 16 * 1/2 or 8 get back up for a total of 12, shooting kills 7 battle shock kills another, 4 remain at the end of the game.
So your intuition is correct, crypteks should let you take more damage per round and survive, but that runs up against battle shock. When we start pressing RP to it's limits we start running into the compounding effects from battle shock, which means not even a cryptek can stem the losses. An easy way to calculate losses from bottle shock is :
so for leadership 10 and 8 casualties it is (0 + 0 + 1 + 2 + 3 + 4) = 1.66 lost to battle shock the same for 9 casualties is 0+1+2+3+4+5 = 2.5 lost to battle shock
So you can see battle shock took an extra person killed and turned it into two extra people killed. It takes about 13-14 warriors killed for battle shock to finish them off, but the bar to make RP a loosing battle is much lower say at 8 with a cryptek, 7 without. Crypteks are expensive, and don't do much aside from bring back units, my contention is that for a 20 man warrior blob it's not worth it to bring a cryptek. A clutch res orb will get you a similar number of models saved in a round as a cryptek does in several rounds, and for a third of the price.
**edit** and what I actually came here for, another swing at the battalion:
Speaking of Warscythes,
How necessary are they on generic HQ?
Previously they were auto-take,
In this edition, how much better are they vs Staff Of Light?
In that most of our HQ are there for buffs, do we really need them in combat?
I'm looking at options for Destroyer Lords leading Destroyer Wings, and if those units want to be hanging back and shooting, wouldn't the Staff be better for him? It's still going to be S5 AP-2 in combat, which isn't exactly garbage. The shooting it puts out might be worth it, on a unit with fly. And if things start getting too close, that's when you throw your disposable Scarabs at them to block the way!
Regardless, I'm of the opinion that support HQs are kind of a waste devoted to Warriors. They should be keeping your really expensive stuff alive, maximizing your point investments. Warriors if taken in Silver Tide are capable of surviving by themselves. At most, the two or three 20 man squads could have one between them, but never 1 Cryptek + Ghost Ark for a single unit of Warriors.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/07 02:53:09
2017/06/07 02:59:05
Subject: New Necron Tactica Thread - 8th ed. leak discussion pg.25 / new stats mathhammer pg.29
skoffs wrote:Speaking of Warscythes,
How necessary are they on generic HQ?
Previously they were auto-take,
In this edition, how much better are they vs Staff Of Light?
In that most of our HQ are there for buffs, do we really need them in combat?
I'm looking at options for Destroyer Lords leading Destroyer Wings, and if those units want to be hanging back and shooting, wouldn't the Staff be better for him? It's still going to be S5 AP-2 in combat, which isn't exactly garbage. The shooting it puts out might be worth it, on a unit with fly. And if things start getting too close, that's when you throw your disposable Scarabs at them to block the way!
Regardless, I'm of the opinion that support HQs are kind of a waste devoted to Warriors. They should be keeping your really expensive stuff alive, maximizing your point investments. Warriors if taken in Silver Tide are capable of surviving by themselves. At most, the two or three 20 man squads could have one between them, but never 1 Cryptek + Ghost Ark for a single unit of Warriors.
Warscythes are cheaper than SoLs. That's something. And better in combat. But not necessary, if you're ok with the 7 extra points for the Staff.
I don't really see it being that great on DLords. Destroyers and Heavies want to be as far away as possible, so a 12" gun isn't really going to add to their damage output. I would rather have the Scythe in case something actually gets close and I need to kill them dead. But either is probably fine.
Odrankt wrote:Is it possible to use Lynchguard Guardian Protocols to deny snipers damaging our Characters in exchange for a MW?
I am tempted to surround my HQ/Characters with a unit of 10 Lynch while foot slogging my crons.
It absolutely works on Snipers. "Roll a d6 when a Character loses a wound within 3" of this unit". Vindicares are really good now, so make a note of that if they become a big meta pick. They're still really slow melee units (slower now!), but yeah it's the only way to "prevent" Snipers.
The scarab horde is an interesting idea and it makes me happy that I have nearly doubled the number of ones I have. I already had 12 plastic ladybug versions when I decided that I liked the old metal ones better and started acquiring them (see my avatar). I will have nine metal ones by the end of the week, for a total of 21 bases and growing. I like them because they fit 3 to a base (to match the number of wounds). I made this video as a humorous way to show my friends how scarab bases function as their own wound counters during the era of Canoptek Harvest, thus the RP:
Looking for more metal ones if anyone knows a rock they are hiding under.
Paradigm for a happy relationship with Games Workshop: Burn the books and take the models to a different game.
2017/06/07 03:41:02
Subject: New Necron Tactica Thread - 8th ed. leak discussion pg.25 / new stats mathhammer pg.29
It absolutely works on Snipers. "Roll a d6 when a Character loses a wound within 3" of this unit". Vindicares are really good now, so make a note of that if they become a big meta pick. They're still really slow melee units (slower now!), but yeah it's the only way to "prevent" Snipers.
we could use Obyron, Deciever or a mono to teleport them within distance of our characters to prevent the foot-slogging and save our characters. Or, MWBD the lynch for +1 advance to move faster I guess. I was watching the SoCol guys on Twitch and they said Snipers wreck our Necron HQs and characters so looking for ways to prevent that if possible.
Tokhuah wrote: The scarab horde is an interesting idea and it makes me happy that I have nearly doubled the number of ones I have. I already had 12 plastic ladybug versions when I decided that I liked the old metal ones better and started acquiring them (see my avatar). I will have nine metal ones by the end of the week, for a total of 21 bases and growing. I like them because they fit 3 to a base (to match the number of wounds). I made this video as a humorous way to show my friends how scarab bases function as their own wound counters during the era of Canoptek Harvest, thus the RP:
Looking for more metal ones if anyone knows a rock they are hiding under.
Love that magnetic idea, awesome!
2017/06/07 06:47:11
Subject: New Necron Tactica Thread - 8th ed. leak discussion pg.25 / new stats mathhammer pg.29
Still trying to figure out a good mix of whatever in lists.
What's everyone's take on the best number and load out for Tomb Blades?
3 is obviously too small... but is 9 too many?
Ideally I'd like to have two units, for flexibility between objectives capturing and actually getting some damage in with them. Would 5 or 6 each be reasonable?
Guns both have purposes (thinking about going one unit with each), but what about other gear?
Scopes used to be auto-take, same with shields, but now... now I don't really what would be best on them (if anything?)
2017/06/07 06:47:25
Subject: New Necron Tactica Thread - 8th ed. leak discussion pg.25 / new stats mathhammer pg.29
One of the struggles Necrons had last edition and has bled over into NewHammer is the lack of high strength, high volume shooting. Our infantry has lots of high volume, medium strength shots, and Destroyers/DDarks have low volume, massive strength shots. But we lack the ability to just put out a lot of hurt in a single turn, especially since our Infantry takes a long time to get into optimum range (and sometimes can't against gunlines or hyper-mobile armies). Here are some options now with the changes in Newhammer:
1) Annihilation Barges have gotten a lot of flack, and fairly rightfully so. But honestly, as far as fire power per point spent goes, they're pretty solid. Just expect them to explode after dishing out 11 Tesla Shots in a turn if they don't cripple their target. Relatively fast, potentially quite durable against multidamage shots with QS, and with a violent amount of dice thrown per turn, their downside is the humble Heavy Bolter.
2) Night Scythes look pretty promising the more you think about them more as a light fire vehicle and less as a Transport. Compare to an Annihilation Barge. For 20/27 points more, you get way more survivability - 50% more wounds, +1 Save, and the all important -1 to hit. You lose out on the underslung gun, which is a pretty hefty loss, but the enhanced durability makes it better for flying up the middle of the board and surviving.
Transporting things is nice, but think of it more as an occasional benefit. If you look at your opponent's list and think they've got a pretty good shot at removing your Scythe(s) in a turn or two, only put 1 unit on the Tomb World. If not, if they're mostly focused on Assault or lack the sort of fire power necessary to take down the Scythe, put 3 or 4 in and ramp up your Troops as the game goes on.
3) The Monolith is only a smidge more than 2 Night Scythes and pumps out more shots, with AP-2 and some with D3 Damage. However, the BS4+ is pretty harsh. Deep Striking in is reliable now - except that opponents can relatively easily abuse the 12" bubble. And despite having more Wounds and a higher Toughness, the -1 to hit on Scythes might make them actually a bit more survivable against things like Lascannons.
However, that AP-2 may be super important. Devastators and Havocs sitting in cover have a 2+, and those are the sorts of things you'll want to eliminate once you drop into mid/backfield. Again, think of the Transport potential as more of an occasional gimmick than a true selling point.
4) Obelisk. Supposedly the Monolith's big brother, the lack of AP makes it a bit unattractive if we're being honest. For the same price, you can get 3 Annihilation Barges, which are squishier but actually put out more damage (and 2 Night Scythes is actually only 4 less shots). Again, the opponent can do DS blocking fairly easily, but once there, it'll stick around for a while (unless you land in 15 Lascannons), and puts out a perverse amount of exploding shots.
---
Now, we're obviously not an army designed with this sort of shooting in mind. In fact, I'd venture to say it's probably designed as one of our weaknesses. However, I think Night Scythes may become a reasonable pick for our army more for being moderately survivable gunboats with potential teleporting powers than anything. 2 of them slots nicely into any list with good amounts of Gauss Troops, and even if they don't try to teleport them up, you're getting reasonable shooting with very little downside. They're only easy to kill in the context of superbuffed gunlines with hit modifiers and/or rerolls, otherwise they're quite resilient. I think any Infantry focused list could do well to include two Night Scythes.
skoffs wrote: Still trying to figure out a good mix of whatever in lists.
What's everyone's take on the best number and load out for Tomb Blades?
3 is obviously too small... but is 9 too many?
Ideally I'd like to have two units, for flexibility between objectives capturing and actually getting some damage in with them. Would 5 or 6 each be reasonable?
Guns both have purposes (thinking about going one unit with each), but what about other gear?
Scopes used to be auto-take, same with shields, but now... now I don't really what would be best on them (if anything?)
I like the idea of two 5 man units. But they're just kinda expensive now.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/07 06:50:01
2017/06/07 06:51:11
Subject: New Necron Tactica Thread - 8th ed. leak discussion pg.25 / new stats mathhammer pg.29
I don't think incoming damage will ever come in so consistently that you can say here at X amount crypteks stop paying for themselves. They change a 5+ fnp save into a 4+, that's kind of as far as you need to think about it. That they can prevent it by wiping out the unit is kind of off set by the save persisting through every turn for the rest of the game if they can't. Also can't you pass any morale check by spending 2 command points? That's an expensive trick to pull off with an average 6 cp to spend but the better your RP support the bigger a swing that results in.
2017/06/07 06:58:22
Subject: New Necron Tactica Thread - 8th ed. leak discussion pg.25 / new stats mathhammer pg.29
2) Night Scythes look pretty promising the more you think about them more as a light fire vehicle and less as a Transport. Compare to an Annihilation Barge. For 20/27 points more, you get way more survivability - 50% more wounds, +1 Save, and the all important -1 to hit. You lose out on the underslung gun, which is a pretty hefty loss, but the enhanced durability makes it better for flying up the middle of the board and surviving.
Transporting things is nice, but think of it more as an occasional benefit. If you look at your opponent's list and think they've got a pretty good shot at removing your Scythe(s) in a turn or two, only put 1 unit on the Tomb World. If not, if they're mostly focused on Assault or lack the sort of fire power necessary to take down the Scythe, put 3 or 4 in and ramp up your Troops as the game goes on.
This makes Night Scythes an attractive option, since you can optimize deployment using the tomb world.
Former moderator 40kOnline
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Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
But I think it would work great for scarabs. I haven't used it for mine and did a proper silicone mold for resin casts because it yields more scarabs per cast, but these are the results I got:
Spoiler:
What's that huge thing right at the back on the left?
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
2017/06/07 09:55:34
Subject: New Necron Tactica Thread - 8th ed. leak discussion pg.25 / new stats mathhammer pg.29
changemod wrote: I have slightly over 50 scarab bases. I could try it.
Dunno if I could find an opponent before official release in my area though, my local store is a GW.
You're allowed to use converted models at GW stores, so long as they're made of SOME genuine GW stuff (which is where the one guy on top comes in)
I own 50 legitimate, 4 scarab per base scarab bases.
The issue would be getting a pickup game in a legit store with leaked materials.
Ah, yes.
Welllll, seeing as how all the stores I've been to now have copies of the rule book and indexes so they can show customers who want to preorder, you could always try asking to use the in-store materials to play a game with your own models? ("I just wanted to see how they'd perform with the new rules.")
2017/06/07 10:21:47
Subject: New Necron Tactica Thread - 8th ed. leak discussion pg.25 / new stats mathhammer pg.29
... That looks like 6 Command Points to me, yo.
(3 for Battle Forged, 1 for every Outrider)
Plus, you know, maximum Scarabs per unit is 9.
Maybe split some of those units up so you can make more individual ones rather than trying to focus on making them as big as you can.
If you can fit some more HQ in you can get more Command Points, too.
Maybe try
Spoiler:
"So you wanna bring the wounds, huh?"
[Outrider]
HQ-
- Lord (Staff): 91
FAST-
- 7 Scarabs: 91
- 7 Scarabs: 91
- 7 Scarabs: 91
364
... That looks like 6 Command Points to me, yo.
(3 for Battle Forged, 1 for every Outrider)
Plus, you know, maximum Scarabs per unit is 9.
Maybe split some of those units up so you can make more individual ones rather than trying to focus on making them as big as you can.
If you can fit some more HQ in you can get more Command Points, too.
yes good spot - i just quickly put together that list.
The Frontline Gaming guys (the ones who helped play test the new rules on literally every unit) shared their thoughts on how each faction plays, tactically.
Looking at their stuff for our stuff-
Necrons
Good Necron Stuff: RP, Overlord + Lord + Cryptek, Named Characters, Immortals, Big warrior bricks, Deathmarks, Flayed Ones, Quantum Shielding
Character auras are really powerful and important
Heavy Destros and Warriors for anti-vehicle
Heavy Destros > Doomsday Ark
Wraiths not as good as before
Illuminor is key
Tesserach Vault is too expensive
Very resilient army
Hmm,
So theory backed up about H.Destroyers vs Doomsday ... though odd they considered Warriors good for anti vehicle.
Looks like they're REALLY trying to push the old Royal Court setup (Overlord + Lord + Cryptek). Granted, the three of them together will definitely make any one unit incredibly good... but that's kinda the issue: only one unit.
Hmm,
So theory backed up about H.Destroyers vs Doomsday ... though odd they considered Warriors good for anti vehicle.
The Warriors thing could be just by sheer weight of fire. In a mess about game my Tesla Immortals (with MWBD) got a Land Raider down to half wounds in a few turns thanks to getting ~30 hits a turn and my opponent having some unfortunate dice rolls. I never got the Warriors to should at it since they were trying to deal with 10 Deathwing Knights (and not doing a great job) but I could see 20 rapid firing Gauss Flayers being a threat to vehicles, especially the lighter ones.
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