Definitely Not a Leaked 6th Rulebook, Don't Even Bother Looking

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**Dribble Joy**

Yes, if a unit is assaulted it can perform Defensive Fire:

If the unit is allowed to perform Defensive Fire in the first place.

Getting assaulted does NOT trigger Defensive Fire. That part of the Defensive Fire rule only pertains to when a unit performing Defensive Fire gets assaulted (models from Deep Strike or during Overwatch).

**Ozeo**

Read my post up! I think i figured this all out!

**garrapignado**

Metadata can be modified as it uses computer time. Change it, and you have changed metadata I think.

**IPS**

Just a question:

Since the draw back move of jetpack troops is a shooting action, do you have to spend
a shooting action on it, or do you just have to able to make shooting actions in general?

The first would mean, a model without multi-targeting can only either shoot or draw back?

**Luke_Prowler**

You can do a drawback move as long as you can use shooting actions, even if you shot already.

**azazel the cat**

Hmm... with the upcoming wave of Tyranid models, there is talk of a new White Dwarf unit... if that is true, and that unit is in fact this "Cerebore" that the codex speaks of, then that will basically confirm the document's validity as a GW rules set of at least some stage of 6th Ed.

**Dribble Joy**

Ozeo wrote:Read my post up! I think i figured this all out!

It's been mentioned numerous times here and in other parts and it does lend some credence to the document. However, as other have mentioned, the date stamp can be altered so if someone was building this prior to the Necron codex coming out, they could add the tesla rules afterwards.

**lord_blackfang**

azazel the cat wrote:Hmm... with the upcoming wave of Tyranid models, there is talk of a new White Dwarf unit... if that is true, and that unit is in fact this "Cerebore" that the codex speaks of, then that will basically confirm the document's validity as a GW rules set of at least some stage of 6th Ed.

Likewise the appearance of Zeal Bolt Pistols in the soon upcoming BT codex, etc.

**azazel the cat**

Just because I desperately want these rules to be real, I'm gonna call this one now:

The next battle box is Black Templars vs. Necrons

**xttz**

Ozeo wrote:I think I might of just figured it out......

so we know the document was done back in may of last year right? Well.....if that's the case, not a single rumour pertained to the fact that necrons where getting Tesla weapons back in may, hell not up until a month before necrons came out did we know about tesla weapons.

But yet there it sits in the pdf leak, and remember this document is from may.....so ether the person's who created this are psychic or this is infact the real deal.

It's pretty trivial to fake a date on a file. I could go upload a PDF now of 7th Edition written in 1892.

Having said that I hope this is real. I'm also buying into the 'intentional GW leak' theory - they dropped this out early to get feedback and to get people used to the rules in time for all the 6th ed. events in the summer. And if not I'm still using these rules anyway. Lictors are good now, yay!

**Maelstrom808**

BDJV wrote:
Dribble Joy wrote:OK, these are the instances where you can perform Defensive Fire:

<snip>

Not quite, if a unit is assaulted and satisfies the following criteria it can Defensive fire:

If the responding unit was assaulted by the
target unit and it was not locked in combat
previously, it can shoot at the target unit. If the
units lose contact, follow the rules for lost
contact outside of the Assault phase as normal.

That is right out of the defensive fire rule.

Many people misunderstand this at first glance. I had to read the section a few times before I figured it out.

Defensive Fire has no triggers that allow you to use it within the rule itself. The part you quoted is preceeded by this:

The rules for Shooting actions apply with the
following exceptions:

Defensive Fire tells you you must let the triggering action complete before you may fire at the enemy unit. Any unit with a speed over 6" can use the charge action to double move and get into base to base contact. You must wait till they finish this move before you can use Defensive Fire, but when they do, you are now locked in combat and unable to use a shooting action (and Defensive Fire as a result) by the normal shooting rules. The part about assaults is telling you that you may go ahead and fire at the enemy unit after it completes it's move, as long as you were not already engaged by another unit.

**demontalons**

Im of the opinion that it's real, for various reasons including the fact that GW was super quick to respond. The other reason and one that I feel quite a few forum members have missed is if you read the introduction you will notice in the pre-amble that these rules are the advanced rules set, not the beginner rules set. To me this makes perfect sense if you're going to do a change. Make a "basic" version easy for kids and adults to get the basics and then have the ""advanced version, aka tourney rules"". Its little details like that that make me think the document is real even if it is just an alpha test.

So for everyone claiming this is too radical a rules set for GW to do then youre right. But its like buying a new video game and skipping right to the last level.

**Dribble Joy**

xttz wrote:....and to get people used to the rules in time for all the 6th ed. events in the summer.

I think that's probably the only reason they might leak it. 4th and 5th were so close to the basic rules of 3rd that people could pick up the changes almost immediately. While much of the system is the same (toughness, weapons skill, armour values, etc.) the mechanics are quite different so 'lessening the blow' could help.

I don't think a leak this early would be useful for feedback regarding the rules themselves, the rulebook is probably at the printers or in the final stages of QA by now, so it's too late for any drastic changes.

Unless of course this was planned with say... 1-2 months before sending off to the printers. Two weeks to a month to see how people react and a frenzy of changes and QA for a few weeks before sending.

That said, I find it highly unlikely this was an intentional leak.

**Blackgaze**

power weapons = 5+ inv parry save in combat?

Then warscythe Lychguard might actually be worth taking over shields sometimes. As well as lords having this as well.

More importantly

>Tyranid boneswords
>warriors and hive tyrant

**Maelstrom808**

Blackgaze wrote:power weapons = 5+ inv parry save in combat?

Then warscythe Lychguard might actually be worth taking over shields sometimes. As well as lords having this as well.

More importantly

>Tyranid boneswords
>warriors and hive tyrant

Only if they have no other special rules, so hyperphase swords gives you a 5++ parry. Warscythes do not since they already give you +2 S and the 2d6 AP.

**Mandor**

Blackgaze wrote:power weapons = 5+ inv parry save in combat?

Then warscythe Lychguard might actually be worth taking over shields sometimes. As well as lords having this as well.

More importantly

>Tyranid boneswords
>warriors and hive tyrant

Only applies to power weapons without special rules.

**DarkStarSabre**

Blackgaze wrote:power weapons = 5+ inv parry save in combat?

Then warscythe Lychguard might actually be worth taking over shields sometimes. As well as lords having this as well.

More importantly

>Tyranid boneswords
>warriors and hive tyrant

Not quite. They're not 'generic' power weapons. They have other special rules to them, thus not power weapons. Power Weapon is a power weapon. Warscythe is a Warscythe. Bonesword is a bonesword.

Besides, if these are legit Tyranids already got a crazy boost in effectiveness from the ID changes alone.

**Dribble Joy**

Hah! Ninjaed by three people

.

DarkStarSabre wrote:Besides, if these are legit Tyranids already got a crazy boost in effectiveness from the ID changes alone.

My Super Kannons still make warriors cry

.

**Maelstrom808**

Dribble Joy wrote:Hah! Ninjaed by three people .

DarkStarSabre wrote:Besides, if these are legit Tyranids already got a crazy boost in effectiveness from the ID changes alone.

My Super Kannons still make warriors cry .

Everytime an imperial guard grunt denies a Boy his armor save in CC, a Tyranid Warrior gets his wings...

**Robbietobbie**

Man that defensive fire would really screw the hell out of my wyches

**Reddeth**

OK, these are the instances where you can perform Defensive Fire:

OVERWATCH
Universal, Shooting special rule
If an enemy unit ends a Move action within 12”, a
unit with this ability may perform a Defensive Fire
action and shoot at the intruding unit. If the unit
was assaulted by the enemy it can shoot
nonetheless. If the units lose contact, they
consolidate at the end of the phase as normal.

Note: The Universal rule does NOT mean all units can perform it.

...Universal special rules are conferred
to every model in the unit if at least one
model has this rule....

DEEP STRIKE
....Units within 12” of one or more enemy units that
arrived via deep strike may perform a Defensive
Fire action and target one of the units. If units
from more than one player can shoot, resolve this
in turn order.....

Trapped!
....Every enemy unit that blocks one or more access
points of the transport can immediately execute
either a Defensive Fire or Charge by Chance
action at the disembarking unit.....

Death or Glory
....A unit that does not dodge (involuntarily or not)
may carry out a Defensive fire action, targeting
the ramming unit....

Under no other circumstances can a unit perform Defensive Fire

After a fairly close read I agree with Dribble Joy's post as quoted above.

I do not believe all unengaged units can defensive fire as a 'charge reaction' as some propose. I belive that only units that are in the above situations or those that have gained the "Overwatch Rules" can use defensive fire. Of further interest is the fact that units can gain the Overwatch via the Strategem "Fire at will" and that many space marine armies and some others (check the FAQ) have wargear/equipment that negate enemy defensive fire reactions when they deepstrike. Inquisitor Corteaz also is the only model listed in the FAQ that confers the overwatch ability to units he has joined...

**Dribble Joy**

Heroic Intervention - now called Deep Strike (Heroic) and Rapid Insertion avoid Defensive Fire, though the latter is because though the models disembark in the manner of Deep Strike, it's not a 'true' Deep Strike.

Deep Strike (Heroic) only seems to appear for Vanguard squads (and the BA equivalent) and Zagstruk.

**Dantalian**

Maelstrom808 wrote:
Defensive Fire tells you you must let the triggering action complete before you may fire at the enemy unit. Any unit with a speed over 6" can use the charge action to double move and get into base to base contact. You must wait till they finish this move before you can use Defensive Fire, but when they do, you are now locked in combat and unable to use a shooting action (and Defensive Fire as a result) by the normal shooting rules. The part about assaults is telling you that you may go ahead and fire at the enemy unit after it completes it's move, as long as you were not already engaged by another unit.

So it is in fact saying I can shoot the unit that is charging into melee with me before the assault starts? Because it sounds both ways to me so far. They must finish their move, enter assault, therefore not be able to shoot due to standard . But in the next breath say I can shoot as long as I'm not already previously engaged in combat? Or is it trying to say (for example) that if there are two squads there, both with overwatch ability, that the second squad not charged can still fire into them before the assault rolls begin.

"If the unit was assaulted by the enemy it can shoot nonetheless."

It's mostly that line I'm hung up on. Because it sounds like it tells you to disregard the normal shooting rules and fire a volley before the assault rolls begin. As if your firing at them while they're charging, but it says wait for the move to finish for simplicity of the matter.

**lord_blackfang**

If the responding unit was assaulted by the
target unit and it was not locked in combat
previously, it can shoot at the target unit. If the
units lose contact, follow the rules for lost
contact outside of the Assault phase as normal.

It's pretty clear that you shoot after they move into base contact.

**Bold or Stupid**

Dantalian wrote:
Maelstrom808 wrote:
Defensive Fire tells you you must let the triggering action complete before you may fire at the enemy unit. Any unit with a speed over 6" can use the charge action to double move and get into base to base contact. You must wait till they finish this move before you can use Defensive Fire, but when they do, you are now locked in combat and unable to use a shooting action (and Defensive Fire as a result) by the normal shooting rules. The part about assaults is telling you that you may go ahead and fire at the enemy unit after it completes it's move, as long as you were not already engaged by another unit.

So it is in fact saying I can shoot the unit that is charging into melee with me before the assault starts? Because it sounds both ways to me so far. They must finish their move, enter assault, therefore not be able to shoot. But in the next breath say I can shoot as long as I'm not already previously engaged in combat? Or is it trying to say (for example) that if there are two squads there, both with overwatch ability, that the second squad not charged can still fire into them before the assault rolls begin.

What it's saying is that if both squads are on overwatch they can both fire.

**Dantalian**

I've just been seeing a lot of people posting their reasoning why this won't work if the assault is successful, but the rules seems to state very clearly you can still shoot.

Melee is going to be a little rough if there are multiple overwatch squads covering each other.

**Agamemnon2**

No, the charged unit gets to use defensive fire on the attacking unit. The first part of his post says that normal shooting rules would disallow this, and then he goes on to say how the DF rules specifically overturn this prohibition. So charging anything into an unit with Overwatch will get them riddled with bullets.

**garrapignado**

Dantalian wrote:
Maelstrom808 wrote:
Defensive Fire tells you you must let the triggering action complete before you may fire at the enemy unit. Any unit with a speed over 6" can use the charge action to double move and get into base to base contact. You must wait till they finish this move before you can use Defensive Fire, but when they do, you are now locked in combat and unable to use a shooting action (and Defensive Fire as a result) by the normal shooting rules. The part about assaults is telling you that you may go ahead and fire at the enemy unit after it completes it's move, as long as you were not already engaged by another unit.

So it is in fact saying I can shoot the unit that is charging into melee with me before the assault starts? Because it sounds both ways to me so far. They must finish their move, enter assault, therefore not be able to shoot. But in the next breath say I can shoot as long as I'm not already previously engaged in combat? Or is it trying to say (for example) that if there are two squads there, both with overwatch ability, that the second squad not charged can still fire into them before the assault rolls begin.

When you try to perform defensive fire, you must let the opponent to finish his movement, so you are engaged, so you can't fire because you are previously engaged (previously not only means "last turn"). And the other squad can't fire, as would be firing at a engaged unit.

Defensive fire only punishes slow troops trying to approach. Faster troops can surprise the defender.

That's how I see it (maybe wrong).

**lord_blackfang**

garrapignado wrote:
When you try to perform defensive fire, you must let the opponent to finish his movement, so you are engaged, so you can't fire because you are previously engaged (previously not only means "last turn")

Your reasoning is ridiculous.

**Dribble Joy**

Speed won't matter, Overwatch triggers DF when an enemy unit ends a Move action within 12", so even if you start a charge over 12" away it still triggers.

lord_blackfang wrote:Your reasoning is ridiculous.

Actually he's right in a manner of speaking;

Defensive Fire
....Resolve the action that triggered this
action completely before you interrupt the turn
to resolve the defensive fire...

If assaulted, then at the end of the move action you are engaged, which would normally prevent you from performing shooting actions (and thus DF), the DF rules included the clause so that this doesn't happen.