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Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
 Carnikang wrote:
Wayniac wrote:
So they kept infinite mortal wounds. Top kek gentlemen. Top fething kek. On top of that, it seems based on their Facebook response they were going to change it and at some point during playtesting decided not to.


It's a leadership bomb build that is pretty easy to pick apart. I'm sure if it gets abused it will be changed, but not very many other leadership based tactics have done well. So here's to betting it will be in lists, but rarely a game winner.



Here's my thing. Is there a leadership bomb that is in the same solar system of effectiveness as this one, if everything goes right? Nope. That's bad game design. If they go back and errata the Harlequin or Night Lords or Grey Knights powers or strats to be close to as powerful as this one, okay. But as it is, it's really bad form to give this sort of thing to Genestealer Cults and nothing else.


I mean, the best eldar LD bomb is 12+2D6 mortal wounds, which I would definitely call "the same solar system of effectiveness".

The night lords do not have nearly as many parts to their LD bomb strategy as eldar soup or GSC. They can only stack to a -3, and only have Gift of Chaos as a ld-based spell.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Savannah

 oni wrote:
GW made a concerted effort to remove the vehicle one-shot removal mechanic from the game. They just reintroduced it with this.

Some of you here are saying that this is hard to do. I assure it's not. It's extremely easy, virtually effortless and almost always guaranteed to remove its target from play.

I just played in a tournament this past weekend. 1st place = GSC. 2nd place = GSC. Guess what they were doing? Mental Onslaught the opponents key units off of the table.

I had the pleasure of playing the 2nd place army. Great game, great players, but putting 21 MW's on my IK and dropping it is complete bs. It has every bit that horrible, feel-bad scenario that 8th edition has tried to squash from the game.

The power needs to be rewritten and the rewrite needs to be heavy handed. I think disallowing it to target CHARACTERS and TITANIC units is a great start.


What were you playing? Did you bring any psychic defense or were you just caught off guard by a new book bringing new threats that you hadn't prepared for? It's easy for that to sneak up on you the first time.

I was also at a tourney this last weekend (granted, a local one with only a couple dozen people), but the several gsc players weren't exploding knights all over the place and a knight list won the event. I saw more IK die to each other than the cult combo.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Perfected Haemonculi Living Sculpture






I love how anyone defending the absurdity of that power always needs to suggest turtling all the expensive models in the corner all game. As if that isn't a win in itself.

It's a WC 6 power on models that can appear anywhere, with the character keyword and a horde army to play bodyguard. Any GSC list will almost always have a clamavus, inconward and patriarch anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Trimarius wrote:
 oni wrote:
GW made a concerted effort to remove the vehicle one-shot removal mechanic from the game. They just reintroduced it with this.

Some of you here are saying that this is hard to do. I assure it's not. It's extremely easy, virtually effortless and almost always guaranteed to remove its target from play.

I just played in a tournament this past weekend. 1st place = GSC. 2nd place = GSC. Guess what they were doing? Mental Onslaught the opponents key units off of the table.

I had the pleasure of playing the 2nd place army. Great game, great players, but putting 21 MW's on my IK and dropping it is complete bs. It has every bit that horrible, feel-bad scenario that 8th edition has tried to squash from the game.

The power needs to be rewritten and the rewrite needs to be heavy handed. I think disallowing it to target CHARACTERS and TITANIC units is a great start.


What were you playing? Did you bring any psychic defense or were you just caught off guard by a new book bringing new threats that you hadn't prepared for? It's easy for that to sneak up on you the first time.

I was also at a tourney this last weekend (granted, a local one with only a couple dozen people), but the several gsc players weren't exploding knights all over the place and a knight list won the event. I saw more IK die to each other than the cult combo.


As a GSC player myself I can tell you I wasn't using that combo until the post release FAQ. Your assuming they all tried the combo or would have to begin with.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/26 16:10:44


   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Savannah

 Red Corsair wrote:
I love how anyone defending the absurdity of that power always needs to suggest turtling all the expensive models in the corner all game. As if that isn't a win in itself.

It's a WC 6 power on models that can appear anywhere, with the character keyword and a horde army to play bodyguard. Any GSC list will almost always have a clamavus, inconward and patriarch anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Trimarius wrote:
 oni wrote:
GW made a concerted effort to remove the vehicle one-shot removal mechanic from the game. They just reintroduced it with this.

Some of you here are saying that this is hard to do. I assure it's not. It's extremely easy, virtually effortless and almost always guaranteed to remove its target from play.

I just played in a tournament this past weekend. 1st place = GSC. 2nd place = GSC. Guess what they were doing? Mental Onslaught the opponents key units off of the table.

I had the pleasure of playing the 2nd place army. Great game, great players, but putting 21 MW's on my IK and dropping it is complete bs. It has every bit that horrible, feel-bad scenario that 8th edition has tried to squash from the game.

The power needs to be rewritten and the rewrite needs to be heavy handed. I think disallowing it to target CHARACTERS and TITANIC units is a great start.


What were you playing? Did you bring any psychic defense or were you just caught off guard by a new book bringing new threats that you hadn't prepared for? It's easy for that to sneak up on you the first time.

I was also at a tourney this last weekend (granted, a local one with only a couple dozen people), but the several gsc players weren't exploding knights all over the place and a knight list won the event. I saw more IK die to each other than the cult combo.


As a GSC player myself I can tell you I wasn't using that combo until the post release FAQ. Your assuming they all tried the combo or would have to begin with.

If it's as trivial as you say to instantly destroy anything you want, why wouldn't you use it? Perhaps there are risks involved and the combo may not even kill your target (or work at all), as I said. It's a great way to crush someone who's never seen it before, but once people react accordingly it's not a huge threat. It's still a great trick to have in your back pocket, don't get me wrong, but I wouldn't call it plan A.

Who said anything about a corner? A 40 point IS that the imperial player has at least six of already is enough to keep the locus at bay. They were already screening the knight, all they have to do is arrange one part of the screen slightly differently.

Another forty points gets you a deny attempt, if you weren't already bringing one for some reason. Or splurge on a ninety-something point librarian and get a +1 to the roll if you're that scared. Or bring an 85 point Culexus. If you're really terrified of the combo, bring a psyker and the assassin and watch them try and get two separate powers through with that -2 and your +1.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/26 18:16:37


 
   
Made in us
Tough Tyrant Guard






I meant to ask you after the Codex came out.

Is the Annointed Throng still super OP auto-take like it was when Vigilus came out?

Cause this seems like another on of those situations where we have to wait and see how the meta adapts.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/26 18:25:36


PourSpelur wrote:
It's fully within the rules for me to look up your Facebook page, find out your dear Mother Gladys is single, take her on a lovely date, and tell you all the details of our hot, sweaty, animal sex during your psychic phase.
I mean, fifty bucks is on the line.
There's no rule that says I can't.
Hive Fleet Hercual - 6760pts
Hazaak Dynasty - 3400 pts
Seraphon - 4600pts
 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




My thoughts on the mental onslaught thing: it shouldn't exist, but it does and its not too hard to screen against.
It has drawbacks too. Yes the characters involved are all auto-takes, but clustering them together is often not the optimal play and the set-up dictates the warlord traits, relics (of which we have really powerful ones we might rather take) and detachments you can take (have to ally at least one detachment to get the guaranteed kill, and GSC are very CP hungry). On top of all that its contingent on a psyker power manifesting, of which there is counterplay available.
   
Made in us
Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos






I wouldn't consider the Locus to be auto-take, but your point still stands.

2750 Unliving Legion of the Zarith Dynasty
840 Imperial Knights of House Janis
2000 Khorne Bloodbound of the Skullfiend Tribe (Aqshy)
2000 Tzeentch Arcanites of the Cult of Searing Light (Hysh)
3000 Slaves to Darkness of the Legion of Rusted Chains (Allpoints/Azyr)
2500 Sylvaneth of the Seelie Court (Ghyran)
 
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





One extra hurdle for knight killer wanters will be now mandatory assasin. It will be, surprise surprise, non imperium armies that will have harder time as they aren't able to field anti psyker assasin

https://middleagedstrategybattlegamers.home.blog/2019/11/16/tneva82-goblins-humans-and-elves/ <- lotr painting blog

12 factions for Lord of The Rings
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
5265 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights

 
   
Made in us
Revving Ravenwing Biker




Hanoi, Vietnam.

Hmm, I for one see nothing wrong with a Patriarch taking down a fully operational Knight by blowing the pilots brains out of his ears, but it also feels wrong, no matter how difficult it is to maneuver into position, and no matter how easy it is to screen against, that once it goes off, to have at least some sort of roll off to be able to stop it.

Warhammer is a game of dice; very little should happen without them.

Edit: just like to add, that I really despise Knights and hate how frequently I see them in 40k, but still...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/27 06:59:31


 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Trustworthy Shas'vre





Leicester

That’s why I’ve hated the mortal wounds mechanic in general ever since it was introduced; there is no interaction. No saves, no modifiers and a lot of the things that cause it (I.e. psychic powers) don’t even have to roll to hit. And if you’re unlucky enough to play Tau/Necrons, you don’t even get to try and deny.

Actually thinking about it like that, the problem with this power doesn’t originate the infinite loop, it comes from the basic mechanics.

DS:80+S+GM+B+I+Pw40k08D+A++WD355R+T(M)DM+
 Zed wrote:
*All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
 
   
Made in us
Revving Ravenwing Biker




Hanoi, Vietnam.

I'd happily agree to get rid of mortal wounds if we could also agree to get rid of damage saves better than 6+ and invulnerable saves better than 4+.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran



Glasgow

 Trimarius wrote:
...since GSC lack the capability for an overwhelming ranged alpha strike against a knight, it's really just their (much more convoluted) equivalent.


Their Brood Brothers pals have plenty. By giving it to GSC you've essentially given it to Nids and AM, too.

I still don't think it's game breaking but it's not really a fun mechanic.
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





 Ginjitzu wrote:
Hmm, I for one see nothing wrong with a Patriarch taking down a fully operational Knight by blowing the pilots brains out of his ears, but it also feels wrong, no matter how difficult it is to maneuver into position, and no matter how easy it is to screen against, that once it goes off, to have at least some sort of roll off to be able to stop it.

Warhammer is a game of dice; very little should happen without them.

Edit: just like to add, that I really despise Knights and hate how frequently I see them in 40k, but still...


Let's just take a quick second to break down what you have to do to accomplish this.

First, you need to take a 120pt character, a 55pt character, and an 80pt character and stand them next to each other, and spend 1CP on a stratagem to give the BRB warlord trait to the magus (which has no other purpose other than the combo, so we can include it in the cost of the combo)

Then, you need to take a 60pt character, and spend 2CP to make him deep strike within 3" of the knight, making this combo impossible to do anytime before turn 2. Hope that knight is not screened, because one single 25mm base between the knight and your guy is enough to make the whole combo impossible at this point.

Then, you need to take your 210 point winged hive tyrant with a relic in an allied detachment, and you need to get him also within 6" of the knight. Again I hope there's no screen at all, because that is a big ass base to get within 6".

Then, that hive tyrant needs to successfully cast a WC6 power, again from 6" away from the knight. If the imperial player has any psychic defense whatsoever, this roll is going to be opposed by a deny.

Then, the patriarch needs to successfully cast his WC6 power, this time 24" away from the knight (so, somewhat less likely to deny if your opponent has not positioned his psyker between you and the target)

Assuming both rolls are unopposed, this results in a commitment of 525 points of resources, a warlord trait, a relic, and 3CP with a 58% chance of success at removing a model that on the highest end (castellan) is 600pts.

In what way is this not "a game of dice" other than the fact that the opposing player doesn't get to roll any if they don't have psykers in place to deny the power?

Don't get me wrong here, I think MO in its current form should not exist. But the knight combo is pure fething hyperbole. The real problem with the power is how shockingly easy it is to get into oneshotting range against most vehicles (which tend to be LD7/LD8 and don't require you to get +6, +4 will usually result in a oneshot).

If MO used base leadership, it would still be amazing compared to other direct damaging powers. A +3 advantage (patriarch against any LD7 target) still results in 6-7 mortal wounds roughly on average. The problem is it's an exponential curve so once you get into the high + territory it's like "+4, 12 wounds on average. +5, 30 wounds on average. +6, infinite wounds."

The 6 MW cap is also fine, results in almost the same thing TBH. Makes the power slighly more abusable in my opinion because you can still combo him with the easy LD buffs and get that 6 wounds against a wider variety of targets.
   
Made in us
Irked Necron Immortal




the_scotsman wrote:

First, you need to take a 120pt character, a 55pt character, and an 80pt character and stand them next to each other, and spend 1CP on a stratagem to give the BRB warlord trait to the magus (which has no other purpose other than the combo, so we can include it in the cost of the combo)

Then, you need to take your 210 point winged hive tyrant with a relic in an allied detachment, and you need to get him also within 6" of the knight. Again I hope there's no screen at all, because that is a big ass base to get within 6".


If I'm reading this whole thing correctly (cause I've only been skimming) You need GSC as your main detachment (i.e. your Warlod is apart of this army) with an Patrol/Allied Detachment of Tyranids. IF you do need to give the Hive Tyrant a Relic you can't because you can only give Relics to characters that are part of your main Army (Faction led by your Warlord). If you take a full on Tyranid army to give the Relic to the HT you can't make use of the GSC stratagem to give a warlord trait to the Magus (I'm assuming you meant GSC not BRB as I cannot recall a stratagem in the BRB that lets you take another warlord trait)

If this all is the case, then the whole combo breaks down right here.
   
Made in us
Tough Tyrant Guard





BomBomHotdog wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:

First, you need to take a 120pt character, a 55pt character, and an 80pt character and stand them next to each other, and spend 1CP on a stratagem to give the BRB warlord trait to the magus (which has no other purpose other than the combo, so we can include it in the cost of the combo)

Then, you need to take your 210 point winged hive tyrant with a relic in an allied detachment, and you need to get him also within 6" of the knight. Again I hope there's no screen at all, because that is a big ass base to get within 6".


If I'm reading this whole thing correctly (cause I've only been skimming) You need GSC as your main detachment (i.e. your Warlod is apart of this army) with an Patrol/Allied Detachment of Tyranids. IF you do need to give the Hive Tyrant a Relic you can't because you can only give Relics to characters that are part of your main Army (Faction led by your Warlord). If you take a full on Tyranid army to give the Relic to the HT you can't make use of the GSC stratagem to give a warlord trait to the Magus (I'm assuming you meant GSC not BRB as I cannot recall a stratagem in the BRB that lets you take another warlord trait)

If this all is the case, then the whole combo breaks down right here.


The Bounty of the Hive Mind strategem allows extra relics to be taken, correct? More CP investment for the combo then.

Of course I might have missed an FAQ about relics and strategems being used by different Detachments in an army.

PourSpelur wrote:
It's fully within the rules for me to look up your Facebook page, find out your dear Mother Gladys is single, take her on a lovely date, and tell you all the details of our hot, sweaty, animal sex during your psychic phase.
I mean, fifty bucks is on the line.
There's no rule that says I can't.
Hive Fleet Hercual - 6760pts
Hazaak Dynasty - 3400 pts
Seraphon - 4600pts
 
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Carnifex






BomBomHotdog wrote:
IF you do need to give the Hive Tyrant a Relic you can't because you can only give Relics to characters that are part of your main Army (Faction led by your Warlord). If you take a full on Tyranid army to give the Relic to the HT you can't make use of the GSC stratagem to give a warlord trait to the Magus (I'm assuming you meant GSC not BRB as I cannot recall a stratagem in the BRB that lets you take another warlord trait)

If this all is the case, then the whole combo breaks down right here.


You only get the free relic for the faction your warlord belongs to. You can still buy extra relics with CP.

Also, there is a GSC stratagem to give a warlord trait each to a Patriarch, Magus and Primus so long as the Patriarch is warlord.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/27 16:24:07


 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





 xttz wrote:
BomBomHotdog wrote:
IF you do need to give the Hive Tyrant a Relic you can't because you can only give Relics to characters that are part of your main Army (Faction led by your Warlord). If you take a full on Tyranid army to give the Relic to the HT you can't make use of the GSC stratagem to give a warlord trait to the Magus (I'm assuming you meant GSC not BRB as I cannot recall a stratagem in the BRB that lets you take another warlord trait)

If this all is the case, then the whole combo breaks down right here.


You only get the free relic for the faction your warlord belongs to. You can still buy extra relics with CP.

Also, there is a GSC stratagem to give a warlord trait each to a Patriarch, Magus and Primus so long as the Patriarch is warlord.


Right. You do need to spend 1cp to get the jorm relic on the hive tyrant.

Also, FWIW, the flyrant and locus are essentially suiciding for the combo. You spend 280 points to take that 58% shot.
   
Made in us
Tough Tyrant Guard





Flyrant could even be dead before Turn 2, seeing as it's easily targeted on the board, but has to move up to get into range to use it's relic. It it also has the fly keyword, so doesn't benefit from Jorm traits, and would likely much rather be a different fleet.

Could always plop the Infrasonic roar on OOE, and run him with a big screen of bodies? Turn two you could probably get him in range of whatever you wanted, and if all else fails, he's often the cruise missile sent to deal with a Castellan (if that is the target).
Of course then your adding more psychic support behind him to throw out the Horror on your target, and give him the ability to charge after advancing....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/27 17:21:11


PourSpelur wrote:
It's fully within the rules for me to look up your Facebook page, find out your dear Mother Gladys is single, take her on a lovely date, and tell you all the details of our hot, sweaty, animal sex during your psychic phase.
I mean, fifty bucks is on the line.
There's no rule that says I can't.
Hive Fleet Hercual - 6760pts
Hazaak Dynasty - 3400 pts
Seraphon - 4600pts
 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




I guess we can see who are Knight players or players who don't want to change their army for a this could happen and not actually make a "take all comers".

Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.

Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?

Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".  
   
Made in nl
[MOD]
Jolly bringer of death and suspensions






Cozy cockpit of an Imperial Knight

With the FAQ out in the wild and no more releases on the horizon I am locking this one down now. Please take all further discussion regarding alpha-strikes, boggles of the mind and other such things to their respective forums.

Be ash and cinder forevermore!

V - 11 | T - 3 | 敗 - 40

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