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I paged through the Dark Angels codex today, and here are some interesting things I noticed about the drop pods.

First off, drop pods DO deepstrike, so mystics work against them.

Second thing is that they took out the 'models may not assault on the turn the pod lands' part.  That means, it's possible to assault out of a drop pod for Dark Angels.  The pod deepstrikes, not the unit, and they disembark as normal, and the pod is an open-topped vehicle.

If you think anyone's going to buy that an argument that when a pod deep strikes, the squad inside it is not also deep striking, you are deluding yourself.

Seriously, I would love to have someone try that logic on me. Unless you are a jedi master or Chuck Norris, I will not go for it.

The real question for me though is, do we use the new drop pod rules and point cost for all other marine lists, or just Dark Angels?

Darrian


2007 RTT and league record:
6-1-3

I will have to see the codex. Most likely, the unit description in the DA codex will apply only to DA armies. Just like you don't mix and match the rules for Chaos and Space Marine Land Raiders. Each uses its own rules from its own codex.

There is a chance that GW will FAQ the Space Marines to use the DA rules, or do a stealth reprint of the SM codex as they have repeatedly done with Chaos, but it seems too big a change for this to be likely. More likely we will have to wait until we see C: SM Redux.

All the rules /point costs etc will be only for DA armies until GW tells us otherwise.
Which I'd *expect* would be relatively quickly, but who knows..
If they don't, it's going to end up being another "true grit" thing, where every codex has it's own version of the rule.

Ooh boy! I can hardly wait for this codex to hit the streets!
YMDC will light up like a Christamas Tree.

Yeah, the forum has been pretty quiet since the latest batch of official FAQs came out, really. Even the Eldar codex release didn't spike the numbers very much.

Or maybe it's because Ed stopped posting here...

Look skyth, DA drop pods DO deepstrike, this is true now.

But how does that override troops not being allowed to assault the turn they deepstrike in?

Also true it doesnt implicitly say that the troops the pods carry count as deepstriking, but they ARE deepstriking in by proxy.

Page 84 is a good refence to check to see how deepstriking troops assaulting the same turn works.

Actually, the troops arrive by disembarking from an open-topped vehicle. How the vehicle gets there isn't a concern as long as they can get out. (Which the drop pod rule specifies that they can) Any troops inside a vehicle are not considered in play except for shooting out via firing ports (as per the Rulebook FAQ).

They Deep Strike onto the table in a transport. Normally Deep Striking disallows movement, so the pod rules explictly state that they are allowed (and compelled) to disembark anyway, overriding that part of the DS rules.

The reason the explicit statement about not being allowed to assault was taken OUT, was because the old rules were not Deep Striking, and now that the unit IS DSing, not being able to assault is already covered by the fact that they're Deep Striking.

The idea that the troops inside being not in play makes them immune to conditions affecting both them and their transport is disproven by the wording of that very FAQ entry, where it talks about possible consequences to embarked troops of things affecting the transport.

Posted By skyth on 02/11/2007 12:45 PM
Actually, the troops arrive by disembarking from an open-topped vehicle....

...which arrives via deepstrike.

Saying it doesnt matter how it gets there is assinine.

Regardless, there are enough DA players flagging behind the idea of assulting the same turn because of the ommission. Not many people will be satisfied until GW FAQ's this issue one way or the other.

But let me ask you how does the ommission of the statement that they cannot assault the same turn as the pod arrives somehow override the new rule that DA pods do in fact now deepstrike?

To me, the open topped vehicle argument doesnt hold as much water as the simple statement that the vehicle is arriving via deepstrike and hence, so are its troops.

Please note the rule below, and pay extra attention to "arriving via deepstrike"...

One issue is that Drop Pods can carry troops that don't have the Deep Strike ability. How can troops that don't have the ability to Deep Strike be arriving via Deep Strike?

One has to assume GW doesn't intend for Dark Angels to be able to assault out of Drop Pods, but the RAW argument in favor of it is muddy at best.

The only parallel I can think of are Dark Eldar's Screaming Jets, which specifically state that the troops on board can't disembark that turn. One might ask why that's necessary to include in the rules if they normally could assault out of a Deep Striking Open Topped transport, but that's not RAW, that's just speculation.

Posted By Phryxis on 02/11/2007 8:30 PM
One issue is that Drop Pods can carry troops that don't have the Deep Strike ability. How can troops that don't have the ability to Deep Strike be arriving via Deep Strike?

Easy. With a drop pod.

dont expect your opponent to buy it and prepare to take a massive hit on soft scores.

Those rules were written for 3rd edition.

I want to know how people who stretch the rules like this and look for every possible loophole actually find people to play against regularly. If some-one tried this and insisted on doing it I would just pick up my models and say goodbye. This interpretation is just assinine. I fully expect this thread to descend into "you cannot use another codex to justify a different codex rules- they are all independant" thread, closely followed by DA players coming up with intent and some form of fluff justification about how DA tactical troops are better at assulting.

Also, if this is the wording who the heck reads and double checks things like this ...... oh ...... ooops.

 

Just once, it would be great if GW could write a set of rules without fouling something up that could potentially cause massive arguements - then again, just once it would be great to walk into a gamer store on a wet Saturday and it not smell of dead decaying animals. About the same chance of both happening I suppose.

Posted By fullheadofhair on 02/11/2007 10:54 PM

I fully expect this thread to descend into "you cannot use another codex to justify a different codex rules- they are all independant" thread, closely followed by DA players coming up with intent and some form of fluff justification about how DA tactical troops are better at assulting.

I’m a Dark Angels player, and I own eight drop pods.

You don’t always need to expect the worst. 

I am pretty amazed at how some people think that assaulting the turn pods drop is somehow fair.

Lets look at a pretty normal dark angel podding scenario that would entail assault marines (since termies cannot utilize this mode of transport).

6 drop pods are set to enter play. 2 drop on the 2nd turn, deploying as closely to the enemy units as possible. They dont have to worry about scattering into enemy units or dangerous terrain. They do risk scattering off target and off the board though. Those two pods deploy their assault marines.
The assault marines flame and shoot the enemy.
The enemy now has a single chance to change the tide of battle. They can either shoot or assault the assault marines, possibly both.
Now its the assault marines turn. They shoot and assault the unit they deployed next to.

Thats what normally happens.

Now there are some people thinking its a fair trade off for the loss of jump packs to get a pod and be able to assault the turn the pod carrying them deepstrikes. Thus dissallowing any recourse the enemy has at all. You cant shoot the pod before it hits you unless in rare cases such as a mystic. You cant shoot the enemy before it shoots you and assaults you after they deploy. Then possibly consolidating into another unit thus denying even more recourse.

I have to apologize to the people who are sypathetic to the plight of assaulting the turn they arrive. Youre simply very mistaken in your interpretation.

Is it possable to assault out of an open-topped vehicle that moved more then 12"?

No. But that?s not the reason. You can never make an assault move from within a vehicle in any event. You?re not able to disembark out of a vehicle which moved over 12? in the first place.

Ok yes this is a slightly different topic... but I feel it is relevant to this conversation.  Would assaulting out of drop pods be any less fair then Shrike's Wing Stealthing, Scouting, and then Assaulting you without a SINGLE thing you can do about it?  I mean maybe my buddy is playing it wrong but I have read the rules in the Codex and I really think there is nothing to stop that.
Aztralwolf

Utterly different.

The rules very clearly make Shrike?s wing totally legal.

In terms of ?fairness? as defined beyond their legality within the rules, Shrike?s wing is also ungodly expensive, dies just as easily as regular marines, and can be countered by careful deployment. Hint- use cheap expendable units or vehicles to block out the edges of your army, and don?t deploy anything valuable within 18? of a good hiding spot behind a wood or building they can hide behind.

Not to mention the fact the Shrike & Co. Have to make their Scout move BEFORE you roll for first turn, so you never know if he can assault before he gets shot. I generally don't scout with him. Also if you DO take the risk and get lucky enough to get first turn, then they generally kill anything they assault (assaulting anything t6 or better is a waste of time) and are STILL suck in the open for retaliation.

I dunno, I just feel no squad should be able to lock into a close combat on turn 1... it just feels wrong.  Anyway not really arguing for or against just comparing for fun and thought
Aztralwolf

Shrikes wing is also a single unit that can do that, not an option for 6+ units to utilize like drop pods are.

does anyone have the actual, full rules for the DA droppod, and if so, can they post it here?

I think this is one of those things that regardless of what the RAW supports, I'm sure we can all agree that this is NOT what GW intended.  I know this because if you could assault out of Drop Pods, it would be one of, if not the, most broken rule that was ever shayt out the GW hole.

Man, how wrong I was. I was predicting assault ramps on Chaos pods, but GW has beaten me to the punch...

well if they would instate a rule to assault out of drop pods for DW maybe it would be the command squad with the master of the deathwing... or only the squad with the apothecary upgrade... explained as they are the vets among vets used to thousands of pod missions over the years?  I dunno, I am going to have fun with the DA no matter what rules they give me.  It's just a game I am here to have fun with.
Aztralwolf

As far as drop pods go, the rule book states that models that arrived via deep strike cannot assault the same turn. As the drop pod and its passengers arrived via deep strike, they can't assault.

- Greenie