Posted By Green Bloater on 02/13/2007 9:24 AM

As far as drop pods go, the rule book states that models that arrived via deep strike cannot assault the same turn. As the drop pod and its passengers arrived via deep strike, they can't assault.

- Greenie

Posted By Mannahnin on 02/12/2007 9:24 AM
No. But that’s not the reason. You can never make an assault move from within a vehicle in any event. You’re not able to disembark out of a vehicle which moved over 12” in the first place.

Posted By Green Bloater on 02/13/2007 4:25 PM
I apologize for what I said in the above post. I can see how there is some confusion regarding how deep strike applies to the drop pod versus the squad of Marines that are embarked. I do believe that GW does not intend for DA Marines to be able to assault the same turn they arrive from reserve. We will just have to wait and see what the FAQ and designer notes have to say.

Posted By Lowinor on 02/14/2007 8:00 AM

If they work via Deep Strike, do they lose the "adjust scatter to not die" rules current SM pods have?

Posted By ColonelEllios on 02/14/2007 8:14 AM
--Even if they aren't *in* the pod when the event occurs (which is rather stupid but RAW says it) they are still *arriving* on the table via deep-strike, which is the important part of the deep-strike rule. Furthermore, seeing as though said unit didn't arrive on the table by walking or infiltrating, there is only one other option...DEEP STRIKE.

They are actually arriving via disembarkation.  If they were truely arriving by deepstriking, they'd have to scatter and form a ring when they ended up.

Posted By Lowinor on 02/14/2007 8:00 AM

Posted By Mannahnin on 02/12/2007 9:24 AM
No. But that’s not the reason. You can never make an assault move from within a vehicle in any event. You’re not able to disembark out of a vehicle which moved over 12” in the first place.

You can make an assault move out of:

a) any vehicle, so long as the unit embarked disembarks before the vehicle moves
b) an open-topped vehicle.

skyth: "They are actually arriving via disembarkation.  If they were truely arriving by deepstriking, they'd have to scatter and form a ring when they ended up."

No, they're arriving via your grubby little fingers placing them on the table. As is clearly stated in the rules: "Units arriving via grubby finger deployment cannot assault on the turn they arrive unless their those eldar thingies, or that one assasin, or that space marine guy, or anyone else we decide can do it later."

So it's perfectly obvious by the RAW that the drop pod cannot assault on the turn that it arrives, but the drop pod can assault on following turns. Of course, since the troops inside aren't deepstriking they're just performing a normal disembarkation move they must stay in the drop pod on the turn they arrive unless the distance between where the drop pod sat off-table and the placement on-table of the drop pod was <=12" (BGB pg 62). They may assault since the vehicle is open-topped but since they can't disembark thay can only assault enemy units within their own drop pod.

So it is written...

Posted By skyth on 02/14/2007 9:52 AM

Posted By ColonelEllios on 02/14/2007 8:14 AM
--Even if they aren't *in* the pod when the event occurs (which is rather stupid but RAW says it) they are still *arriving* on the table via deep-strike, which is the important part of the deep-strike rule. Furthermore, seeing as though said unit didn't arrive on the table by walking or infiltrating, there is only one other option...DEEP STRIKE.

 

They are actually arriving via disembarkation.  If they were truely arriving by deepstriking, they'd have to scatter and form a ring when they ended up.

Posted By Mannahnin on 02/14/2007 1:07 PM

Posted By Lowinor on 02/14/2007 8:00 AM

Posted By Mannahnin on 02/12/2007 9:24 AM
No. But that’s not the reason. You can never make an assault move from within a vehicle in any event. You’re not able to disembark out of a vehicle which moved over 12” in the first place.

You can make an assault move out of:

a) any vehicle, so long as the unit embarked disembarks before the vehicle moves
b) an open-topped vehicle.

You are misusing "assault move".  I repeat, you can never make an assault move out a vehicle.  You can only disembark from a vehicle during the MOVEMENT phase, after which you may make an assault move later in the turn if conditions a or b above apply.

Posted By Lowinor on 02/14/2007 1:17 PM

Posted By Mannahnin on 02/14/2007 1:07 PM

Posted By Lowinor on 02/14/2007 8:00 AM

Posted By Mannahnin on 02/12/2007 9:24 AM
No. But that’s not the reason. You can never make an assault move from within a vehicle in any event. You’re not able to disembark out of a vehicle which moved over 12” in the first place.

You can make an assault move out of:

a) any vehicle, so long as the unit embarked disembarks before the vehicle moves
b) an open-topped vehicle.

You are misusing "assault move".  I repeat, you can never make an assault move out a vehicle.  You can only disembark from a vehicle during the MOVEMENT phase, after which you may make an assault move later in the turn if conditions a or b above apply.

Sorry, you're exactly correct.  Posting pre-caffeine, etc, etc.

Honkey Bro just quoted the hell out of you guys! Man, that's a quote of Lowinor quoting Mannahnin quoting Lowinor quoting Mannahnin quoting E.F. Hutton! Unfortunately though Honkey Bro it is not a clear cut as you describe actually it is pretty un clear cut or uncut as some would say. Actually, the drop pods are subject to holy rage when used in a Dark Angels force so it gets pretty muddled.

No hellfury, we're not brothers, at least not in the traditional sense.  We do share that common bond that can only come from countless hours of time spent in the same office eating the same microwaveable food and drinking enough Mountain Dew to see into the future.

Posted By Glaive Company CO on 02/14/2007 1:10 PM

So it's perfectly obvious by the RAW that the drop pod cannot assault on the turn that it arrives, but the drop pod can assault on following turns. Of course, since the troops inside aren't deepstriking they're just performing a normal disembarkation move they must stay in the drop pod on the turn they arrive unless the distance between where the drop pod sat off-table and the placement on-table of the drop pod was <=12" (BGB pg 62). They may assault since the vehicle is open-topped but since they can't disembark thay can only assault enemy units within their own drop pod.

So it is written...

Posted By Hellfury on 02/14/2007 1:20 PM
Hey Paul. Are you and Honky Bro, brothers?

I have to say, "OMFZ!111! Honkey-Bro's sig is like, soooo big!". I never read his posts because they look like the header sentence to his sig.

Posted By Lowinor on 02/14/2007 1:26 PM

Posted By Glaive Company CO on 02/14/2007 1:10 PM

So it's perfectly obvious by the RAW that the drop pod cannot assault on the turn that it arrives, but the drop pod can assault on following turns. Of course, since the troops inside aren't deepstriking they're just performing a normal disembarkation move they must stay in the drop pod on the turn they arrive unless the distance between where the drop pod sat off-table and the placement on-table of the drop pod was <=12" (BGB pg 62). They may assault since the vehicle is open-topped but since they can't disembark thay can only assault enemy units within their own drop pod.

So it is written...

That doesn't work.  By their own rules, models inside a drop pod are forced to disembark on the turn they arrive.

Posted By Lowinor on 02/14/2007 1:26 PM

Posted By Glaive Company CO on 02/14/2007 1:10 PM

So it's perfectly obvious by the RAW that the drop pod cannot assault on the turn that it arrives, but the drop pod can assault on following turns. Of course, since the troops inside aren't deepstriking they're just performing a normal disembarkation move they must stay in the drop pod on the turn they arrive unless the distance between where the drop pod sat off-table and the placement on-table of the drop pod was <=12" (BGB pg 62). They may assault since the vehicle is open-topped but since they can't disembark thay can only assault enemy units within their own drop pod.

So it is written...

That doesn't work.  By their own rules, models inside a drop pod are forced to disembark on the turn they arrive.

Posted By Honkey Bro on 02/14/2007 1:19 PM

Posted By Lowinor on 02/14/2007 1:17 PM

Posted By Mannahnin on 02/14/2007 1:07 PM

Posted By Lowinor on 02/14/2007 8:00 AM

Posted By Mannahnin on 02/12/2007 9:24 AM
No. But that’s not the reason. You can never make an assault move from within a vehicle in any event. You’re not able to disembark out of a vehicle which moved over 12” in the first place.

You can make an assault move out of:

a) any vehicle, so long as the unit embarked disembarks before the vehicle moves
b) an open-topped vehicle.

You are misusing "assault move".  I repeat, you can never make an assault move out a vehicle.  You can only disembark from a vehicle during the MOVEMENT phase, after which you may make an assault move later in the turn if conditions a or b above apply.

Sorry, you're exactly correct.  Posting pre-caffeine, etc, etc.

Wait!!!! Arn't them drop pods open topped?  and don't they pop as soon as they drop?  sounds to me like he has a pretty logical clear cut closed book case and you guys are just wrong.

Posted By Honkey Bro on 02/14/2007 1:27 PM

Posted By Hellfury on 02/14/2007 1:20 PM
Hey Paul. Are you and Honky Bro, brothers?

I have to say, "OMFZ!111! Honkey-Bro's sig is like, soooo big!". I never read his posts because they look like the header sentence to his sig.

No one reads my posts unfortunately.  Which is sad becaues I am responsible for like idk 10% of the dakka rules on here.  I coined the term RAW and Magic Cylindar.

Posted By Hellfury on 02/14/2007 1:28 PM

Posted By Honkey Bro on 02/14/2007 1:19 PM

Posted By Lowinor on 02/14/2007 1:17 PM

Posted By Mannahnin on 02/14/2007 1:07 PM

Posted By Lowinor on 02/14/2007 8:00 AM

Posted By Mannahnin on 02/12/2007 9:24 AM
No. But that’s not the reason. You can never make an assault move from within a vehicle in any event. You’re not able to disembark out of a vehicle which moved over 12” in the first place.

You can make an assault move out of:

a) any vehicle, so long as the unit embarked disembarks before the vehicle moves
b) an open-topped vehicle.

You are misusing "assault move".  I repeat, you can never make an assault move out a vehicle.  You can only disembark from a vehicle during the MOVEMENT phase, after which you may make an assault move later in the turn if conditions a or b above apply.

Sorry, you're exactly correct.  Posting pre-caffeine, etc, etc.

Wait!!!! Arn't them drop pods open topped?  and don't they pop as soon as they drop?  sounds to me like he has a pretty logical clear cut closed book case and you guys are just wrong.

Yeah they pop open automatically and the troops are forced to disembark when they arrive. Travelling faster than 12" is the only thing that does not allow a transport to disembark its infantry. But again, because forced disembarkation makes the unknown distance moved by the drop pod irrelevant, it has no affect on allowing the troops to assault.

Hence being open topped only disallows disembarkation after distances it travelled being greater than 12". It doesnt disallow the troops to assault once they disembark.

I am just playing devils advocate here, as I still think being able to do this is crap, but the people for this side of the argument atleast have some ground to stand on.

But perhaps you are forgetting that if a unit is forced out of their transport (like when a pen hit comes in) they are pinned if the vehicle moved more than x amount of inches.  So I say they need to take a pinning test when they come out.

Posted By Honkey Bro on 02/14/2007 1:31 PM

But perhaps you are forgetting that if a unit is forced out of their transport (like when a pen hit comes in) they are pinned if the vehicle moved more than x amount of inches.  So I say they need to take a pinning test when they come out.

Posted By Mannahnin on 02/14/2007 1:12 PM

Skyth, they arrive on the table via Deep Strike.  Check out the Reserve rules (p84-85), whee they discuss a unit and its transport, and it is explicitly stated that units may walk onto the table or come on in their transport.  Per the passage "passengers do not have to arrive mounted in the transport", it is clear that units coming onto the table in a transport ARE arriving on the table within it.

Posted By Hellfury on 02/14/2007 1:33 PM

Posted By Honkey Bro on 02/14/2007 1:31 PM

But perhaps you are forgetting that if a unit is forced out of their transport (like when a pen hit comes in) they are pinned if the vehicle moved more than x amount of inches.  So I say they need to take a pinning test when they come out.

What page number is that on?
I need to read that.

I am looking it up now, while you wait, please start rolling your casualties and/or pinning tests as detailed in the table below.

Posted By Lowinor on 02/14/2007 1:37 PM

Posted By Mannahnin on 02/14/2007 1:12 PM

Skyth, they arrive on the table via Deep Strike.  Check out the Reserve rules (p84-85), whee they discuss a unit and its transport, and it is explicitly stated that units may walk onto the table or come on in their transport.  Per the passage "passengers do not have to arrive mounted in the transport", it is clear that units coming onto the table in a transport ARE arriving on the table within it.

You're claiming that "arriving via a transport that Deep Strikes" is the same as "arriving via Deep Strike".  You're also claiming that parts of the Deep Strike special rule apply to units that don't have that special rule*.

Fundamentally, there is a set of rules that govern how transport movement affects movement/assault options for troops in those transports.  Deep Striking is not covered by these rules.  I assert that claiming that Deep Strike "filters down" to the troops is unsupported by the rules as written.  I'm not suggesting that anyone plays it this way.

Following that line of argumentation, were I, playing Chaos, to summon daemons off of a Chosen squad that used Deep Strike to land, they could not assault on the turn they were summoned, because they "arrived via Deep Strike".


* Yes, the next result is that it works differently for a termy squad with the Deep Strike special rule working totally differently.  No, it doesn't make any sense.  No, I'm not telling anyone to play it that way.

Posted By Hellfury on 02/14/2007 1:28 PM

Yeah they pop open automatically and the troops are forced to disembark when they arrive. Travelling faster than 12" is the only thing that does not allow a transport to disembark its infantry. But again, because forced disembarkation makes the unknown distance moved by the drop pod irrelevant, it has no affect on allowing the troops to assault.

Hence being open topped only disallows disembarkation after distances it travelled being greater than 12". It doesnt disallow the troops to assault once they disembark.

I am just playing devils advocate here, as I still think being able to do this is crap, but the people for this side of the argument atleast have some ground to stand on.