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I cheerfully cede. I'm happy to agree, as there is some rule on point.

There are two facts that have been entirely left out of this debate:

1) When a dedicated transport (read: Drop Pod) is purchased for a squad from the army list, the transport and squad are assumed to occupy the same force organization slot. They are effectively treated as a single squad (since a dedicated transport cannot claim objectives) and are deployed at the same time. This goes a little ways towards resolving the "two seperate units" dispute, as they are effectively not *two* seperate units, but I concede that they aren't a *single* unit, either.

2) The new Rulebook FAQ released on the GW website has *finally* established that a Land Speeder arriving via Deep Strike counts as moving over 12", so it cannot legally deep strike and fire its guns in the same game turn. Since the rules for a Drop Pod are as equally ambiguous as the rules *used* to be for Land Speeders, I think it is safe to assume that GW intends that ALL units arriving via deep strike count as moving as fast as they possibly can (also supported by Dark Eldar's "Screaming Jets" upgrade).

So...if we accept that the unit upgraded with a Drop Pod can't ignore the drop pod's movement method as independent of their own, and we ALSO accept that a Drop Pod counts as moving 12" or more when it Deep Strikes (since the troops MUST get out), then by default you have a unit that is disembarking from a transport AFTER it moved and attempting to assault, which is illegal.

So by completely ignoring the squad inside of the Drop Pod, we can establish that said squad STILL cannot assault as they are disembarking from a vehicle that already moved.

Posted By ColonelEllios on 02/16/2007 11:43 AM
So by completely ignoring the squad inside of the Drop Pod, we can establish that said squad STILL cannot assault as they are disembarking from a vehicle that already moved.

However, you CAN assault out of an open topped vehicle that has moved.  Drop pods are open topped.

Antonin- You are a scholar and a gentleman.

Col Ellios-  While I appreciate your efforts, your particular arguments don’t hold up.

1. Dedicated transports and the units they are purchased for are clearly established in 4th as being separate units at all times. They make one roll for Reserves and the transport is only permitted to carry that one particular squad (and any attached ICs). Those are their only connections in the rules.

2. The default setting for the rules DOES allow units to assault on the turn they disembark from an open-topped transport, even if said open-topped transport moved on the same turn before the troops disembarked.

Seriously. The only thing holding them back in this case is the fact that they’re Deep Striking.

Skyth- Can you please read the Reserves rules I have quoted and either...

a. Give me a counter argument

or

b. Concede that the unit inside a Drop Pod IS arriving on the table via Deep Strike

Is the droppod moving more than 12", and if so what effect does that have on the ability of the disembarking troops to shoot?

In the SM codex they were explicitly allowed to shoot after disembarking, and under the deepstriking rules are allowed to shoot (except of course land speeders, for some bizarre and unfathomable reason). Does the DA book do anything in this regard?

I agree with antonin it makes no sense for land speeders. A drop pod will alow for deployment and shooting in any faq. Thats just my guess. DA can now deepstrike in the first turn yaaaa.

Something doesn't arrive until it actually gets on the table. How the units inside the pod actually get on the table is through disembarking. The pod arrives on the table via deep strike.

If the unit was arriving via deepstrike, it would have to follow the deepstrike rules, which includes scattering and being placed in a circle.

Skyth, would you do us all the courtesy of reading the Reserves rules I cited?

When they say that a unit has to option to arrive on the table in its transport, what do you think that means?

I did read them, however, in order to be deepstriking a unit has to do certain things according to the deepstriking rules. The unit inside does not do these things, thus cannot be said to be deepstriking.

Hmm... I guess I would just go kinda fluffy.  Way I figure it you just got dropped several miles outta the air and crashed... pretty damned hard, into the ground.  Hatches blow open and whammo suddenly there are tons of enemy forces swirling around.  Marine or not that would shake you up pretty well, and that turn you come in you can shoot, bc lets be honest how hard is it to pull a trigger... but knowing exactly where to charge would be another topic.  Would you throw yourself blindly at the first thing you saw?

But on the serious end of it I do have to agree that the rule for a speeder counting as unable to shoot kind of settles it, as the pod only counts as opened topped after it lands and blows its hatches... I dont think even marines like having a moonroof while plummeting out of orbit. So when it comes into play it is NOT open topped, then the hatches blow and the marines stumble out.
Aztralwolf

Posted By skyth on 02/16/2007 5:08 PM
I did read them, however, in order to be deepstriking a unit has to do certain things according to the deepstriking rules. The unit inside does not do these things, thus cannot be said to be deepstriking.

I double dog dare you to pull this in a shop or at a tournement. No need to tell me when you do it as I will hear the laughter in Seattle - closely followed by a moment of silence and "oh, you're serious"

This has to be the most twisted logic I have ever seen by some-one trying to get an advantage, and I have read the DA codex.

Again though, this demonstrates why outside testing is needed. The moment this would have been suggest (after the laughter has died down and some-one has had their bust ribs bandaged) the wording would have changed to be more explicit. I am sure for average joe, this interpretation would not have crossed their mind.

Skyth - I wonder if you are applying this to dreadnoughts drop-podding in (not at shop so cannot check wording).

Funny...How can I be trying to gain an advantage when I don't play Dark Angels? I'm looking at the rules and seeing what they actually say.

Posted By Mannahnin on 02/16/2007 4:20 PM
Skyth, would you do us all the courtesy of reading the Reserves rules I cited?

When they say that a unit has the option to arrive on the table in its transport, what do you think that means?

Reiterated.

Posted By skyth on 02/16/2007 5:08 PM
I did read them, however, in order to be deepstriking a unit has to do certain things according to the deepstriking rules. The unit inside does not do these things, thus cannot be said to be deepstriking.

reiterated

Perhaps we need a quote of the Drop Pod rules. I believe they explicitly state that the unit within disembarks anywhere within 2" of the vehicle. If that explicit statement is made, it overrules the USUAL Deep Strike instructions on how the models are arranged on the table.

The fact that a unit is not arranged in the usual fashion for Deep Strikers is not proof positive that it is not "arriving on the table via Deep Strike".  Especially since the assault prohibition is based on the way that they arrived on the table, not the physical positioning of the models in the unit. 

Deployed as normal I believe.

We have both just used the phrase "I believe".

We need someone who has the book to quote the paragraph for us.

Interesting thought-Do the pods explicitly give permission for the unit inside to stay in reserves? The deepstrike rule gives explicit permission for units that have it to stay in reserves. Without that, they would have to be deployed (Unless in an escalation game) and the pod would have to deepstrike empty.

 

Edit-Or else they ARE actually using the deepstrike rule.

Can we please stop passing on the torch of idiocy?

While I don't feel I have the knowledge or experience to weigh in on this v4 argument, here are the scanned quotes of the pertinent rules:

(from the SM dex)


(BBB)

I don't have access to the DA dex, so perhaps someone can scan that page in or quote verbatim what it says. Without that, it's seems pretty clear to me (despite my distinct lack of experience) that there will be no assaulting after podding.

Thanks for the effort, Nyarly!

Unfortunately this debate is about the new revised Drop Pod rules in the DA codex, and that's what we need a scan or quote of at this point. Skyth and I have both been foolish enough to base this whole debate on secondhand information.

Still good to have the stuff you posted for reference, though.

IntoTheRain- No one's forcing you to read the thread. Or to post (constructively or not). Both are your choices.

lets just say I find it difficult to be constructive in an arguement as proposterous as "Even though the Pod is deep striking, my troops inside don't count as deep striking"

I would ask where in the above shown rules it actually says the pod deep strikes. Nowhere does it say the pod arrives via deep strike, rather it lists specific instructions on how to place the pod, instructions which are not the same as deep strike. Also, in the codex description of the pod, it never mentions deep strike either. Since nothing in any of the pod description says or the rules for drop pod assaults say that, then the deep strike restrictions would not apply, and the ones from the drop pod description prohibiting assalut should. This of course is based solely on the SM codex as I also have not yet laid paws on the DA one.

ah64pilot5, please read the thread. Or at least the post two posts above yours.

Please. Think of the kittens.

The drop pod rules remain the same. When you land you can deploy and shoot that is it.

The codex allows for deepstriking on the first turn now but thats only terminators.

5thelement, do you have a copy of the codex you can quote for us?

Sure, im at work now so give me a couple hours.

ok since no one has even bothered to post what the new da codex says let me.... now also please know i dont buy this either


drop pods arrive via deep strike.. thats whats in the codex

it says that drop pods are open topped vehicles thats also in the codex

also it states that the passengers must dismebark from the "open topped" vehicle the turn it arrives via NORMAL disembarking rules thats also in the new codex

there in lies the premise that everyone is harping about... it states they must dismbark from an open topped vehicle per normal rules and we all know the rules state that you may assault out of an open topped vehicle

this is a clear case on one thing not counteracting another...i dont happen to agree with the idea myself but i can see where some will argue the point

and for the official record here please stop quoting rules from the rule book if for this resason only... if a rule is changed by new wording in any codex that is printed after the main rulebook... that rule in the codex is the new rule to be used... period there is no debate on this point...

now the question is does the fact that it says that da's must disembark per normal rules override anything? yes and no

under normal rules a unit that dismebarks from a open topped vehicle may assault that turn....thus we have the dispute here...

only a faq will clarify it but dont expect one any time soon.. and you cant use the rules for this till the codex is officially released anyway....

so time will tell

I am with nyarlathotep667. He has been good enough to show us a scan of the existing rules. The new DA drop pods are listed as using deep strike to land and also have an inertial guidance system so that they are not destroyed by other units and impassable terrain when landing. They can still scatter off the board. It is completely preposterous to say that a squad landing in a deep striking transport do not count as deep striking.

- Greenie

The way I read it, the troops in the Drop Pod are still arriving by Deep Strike, even if it's their transport that is doing the actual Deep Striking.

So, the pod Deep Strikes onto the board and the troops disembark. The troops are now on the board, but they only came to be there because of the Deep Strike rules (ie, they are there by "arriving via Deep Strike" as per the second quote given above) and therefore cannot assault.

Though either way it's a sticky question, and I hope that GW comes up with an answer quickly...