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I was reading a post earlier and someone mentioned something about the "toughest" armies out there right now.  So I was thinking what are the toughest and weakest armies out there.  Now obviously this is a relative idea because the person playing the army and the armies opponent is a huge factor.  I just wanted to ask this of all the people who have had a lot of experience playing or playing against different armies.  My personal experience is limited to my Grey Knights, and my three friends that play with me Eldar, Ultramarines and Tau....so I don't have a large enough pool to judge from.

So what im asking is what armies (in order) do you think are the toughest take all comers types of armies.  I know there will be a lot of variation but Im just curious if some armies are at the tops of everyones lists.

Are you asking what armies are the hardest for take on all comers to play or what armies are the best at taking on all comers? (thats confusing but I don't know how else to put it)

I'll post to this list, with the idea that we are looking to agree on what are the top tournament armies.
1. Terminator Drop Pod Marines
2. Godzilla Choir Nids
3. Iron Warriors
4. Eldar

Hows that?

I'd say that Necrons are pretty mean through their sheer resiliance and the armour rules for gauze weapons. They aren't unbeatable, but their toughness allows a lot of fumbling during games which most players can recover from.

CODEX SPACE MARINES: 6 Dreads and 9 Tornados

CODEX SPACE MARINES: 2 Scout Units AND 5 Terminator Pods

CODEX CHAOS IRONWARRIORS: 9 Obliterators and 4 Ordinance

CODEX NECRONS: 15 Destroyers 3 Monoliths 2 Destroyer Lords

CODEX ELDAR: 3 Super Falcons and 4 Super Waveserpents

CODEX CHAOS EMPERORS CHILDREN: 50 Fearless Tank Hunter Sonic Blaster Marines and Siren Prince

CODEX IMPERIAL GUARD: Afriel Strain 2 Basilisks 20 Lascannons 30 Roughriders 100 models

CODEX DARK ELDAR WYCHES: Webway Portals; 50+ mounted wyches; Archon, 3 Ravagers

CODEX IMPERIAL GUARD DOCTRINES: 40 Infiltrating lascannons.

The rest

Im sorry if the original was confusing but I think people get what I meant...basically the toughest all comers lists for any game.

I am kind of surprised to see that drop pod armies rate so high.  It seems like the "shooty" armies would be able to deal with an army like that handily.  But then again i have not played enough games or any games against a pod army so that is why I have ask this question.

Id really like to hear from more people and see what others think about the topic.  Or do any of you agree/disagree with the replies that have already been listed?

1. IW
2. Siren Chaos
3. Nids
4. Pods
5. Tau
6. Eldar
7. Other SM

(This is basically a list of which game mechanics are broken. That the list of toughest lists amounts to a list of broken game mechanics with the lists around them as a secondary feature shouldn't be terribly surprising.)

The big ones that there aren't any real solution for:

Assault Cannons in Drop Pods (daemon summoning for shooty squads with the rending omnigun. sprinkle Fear of the Darkness to taste)
Infiltrating (or, really, any variety of) Daemonbombs (very few real ways to handle this due to how horribly broken daemon summoning is)


The other scary stuff that has solutions, even if they're not happy solutions:

Skimmers Moving Fast (with vehicle upgrades for more resilience, of course)
Godzilla (Figure out how many T6+ wounds your list can put out in a full game)
Oblits-n-Pie Plates (the Obliterator omnigun is only better than an Assault Cannon at certain ranges...)

I'm not convinced Siren is really good anymore; horribly broken, but the 4th edition SM codex means Psychic Hoods are everywhere, so it's situational, and even still, it's not a free win like FotD is against the armies susceptible to it.

I'd probably have to pick AC/DP as the best overall, as there's no really good solution to it, and it's the best solution to the daemonbomb anyway. And, plus, SMF and Zilla both hate rending, and pods reduce the amount of time IW get to shoot anyway...

Totally agree that deamon summoning is broken....but where does the power of the IW and zilla nids lists come from?  I really know nothing about IW, but are the zilla nids shooty? or do they go for hth?  Ive played nids but not zilla's.

I think you're over rating the Assault Cannon pod list.

Godzilla can beat it, especially if you deepstrike the termies or worse have them in Pods. Sure, rending is really nice but in order to go through THAT MANY T6 or T7 wounds with a 2+ save you need to have every assault cannon on the table at the start to try and get that many rending shots out. Cover makes it worse, but the real killer is missions. If it's a mission game, like say Take and Hold you're going to have a hard time with it since if they're moving towards the objective then you're close to assault range if you go near the objective or DS near it. And then there are things like gaunts, stealers, or raveners that will divert fire.

You just don't have the amount of turns of fire to pull that off I think, you won't get enough 6's to put enough rending hits in.

I've also had trouble against the Eldar Airforce. It's hard to stay scoring when they're running an autriarch on a bike that can't be shot (who will eat a termy squad on his own on the charge) and there are units of 6 Harlies or Banshee's running in Falcons that you can't shoot down no matter how much rending with Tank Hunters you have. Plus objectives make it rough too, like in Secure in Control where they can easily zoom in to contest or claim objectives smattered around the board. Also while they castle on the turn you drop if you come in too early then they can scatter and piece mail you.

That's the main reason I gave up doing the Pod list, it doesn't work for how I like to play the game. You are wholly dependent on those reserve rolls. You get games where all your units but like 1 will drop on turn 2 and you're practically done vs. a Mech list or vs. some assault armies.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 03/06/2007 4:47 AM
I think you're over rating the Assault Cannon pod list.

Maybe.  The question, though, is what's better against Godzilla?  And then, what's better against Godzilla that isn't tooled to kill Godzilla?  The latter bit is pretty important, as the real reason that ACs are broken is because they're good at shooting everything.  I mean, Obliterators are broken for much of the same reason, but at 12-24", an AC is a better gun for almost any target* than anything an Obliterator can morph.


* - Without running the numbers again, my recollection is that the Oblit wins against AV12 non-skimmers, but against essentially everything else, the AC is a better gun at 12-24" than anything the Oblit can whip up against anything.  The Monolith as well is an exception, and the Oblit has an edge when shooting at T4 models that can be instakilled as well.  But still, Obliterators get to pick from most of the guns available to Chaos or SM, and the AC is better than all of them against a large swathe of targets.  It's broken.

Posted By Vult on 03/06/2007 4:16 AM
Totally agree that deamon summoning is broken....but where does the power of the IW and zilla nids lists come from?  I really know nothing about IW, but are the zilla nids shooty? or do they go for hth?  Ive played nids but not zilla's.

For IW...

Chaos has better HS choices than SM.  IW can pick 4 of them.  They also aren't limited to 1 squad of Obliterators like the rest of the Chaos lists (at least, those lists than can even take Obliterators).  Oblits are the Chaos version of the Assault Cannon -- optimal gun for any engagement.  At some ranged, the Oblit can even pick a better gun than an Assault Cannon .  Their primary disadvantage is that they deploy by Deep Strike (and not even Always Deep Strike) compared to the superior Drop Pod (or Always Deep Strike) on SM Termies.

Zilla being shooty or assaulty is of secondary importance for the strength of the list; Zilla works because it throws more T6+ 2+ save wounds at you than most lists can handle.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 03/06/2007 4:47 AM
I think you're over rating the Assault Cannon pod list.

I've also had trouble against the Eldar Airforce. It's hard to stay scoring when they're running an autriarch on a bike that can't be shot (who will eat a termy squad on his own on the charge) and there are units of 6 Harlies or Banshee's running in Falcons that you can't shoot down no matter how much rending with Tank Hunters you have. Plus objectives make it rough too, like in Secure in Control where they can easily zoom in to contest or claim objectives smattered around the board. Also while they castle on the turn you drop if you come in too early then they can scatter and piece mail you.

So what's better at taking down the SMF army than Tank Hunting Assault Cannons?

Posted By Lowinor on 03/06/2007 5:41 AM

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 03/06/2007 4:47 AM
I think you're over rating the Assault Cannon pod list.

I've also had trouble against the Eldar Airforce. It's hard to stay scoring when they're running an autriarch on a bike that can't be shot (who will eat a termy squad on his own on the charge) and there are units of 6 Harlies or Banshee's running in Falcons that you can't shoot down no matter how much rending with Tank Hunters you have. Plus objectives make it rough too, like in Secure in Control where they can easily zoom in to contest or claim objectives smattered around the board. Also while they castle on the turn you drop if you come in too early then they can scatter and piece mail you.

So what's better at taking down the SMF army than Tank Hunting Assault Cannons?

I like a few las/plas squads for that, ok more than a few more like 4-5.  The key with Falcons or Hammerheads isn't so much to kill them as it is to just neutralize them (especially Hammerheads).  I go off the idea of "shoot a falcon, stun a falcon for that turn, kill the rest of the list".  Honestly you're lucky to kill a Falcon after it gets moving.  Serpents like Devilfish's just need more shots poured into them.  I go for the idea of just pumping  a Lascannon/Plasma shot into each Skimmer  to get the glance and try to neuter each one.

Railheads are actually easier to take down and neutralize because they're not as fast and they're not as resilient overall.  Again, small Las/Plas squads do great for putting a glance on a Falcon or Hammerhead.  I prefer my assault cannons to go after the other aspects of the list that they're just better at killing (being able to move 12" and fire, or deep strike and fire). 

If they're running Falcons as Aspect/Harlie delivery systems, you're going to have a hell of a hard time stopping them no matter what you run.  That along with the demon bomb is probably one of the best "ram-rod assault" you have in the game.  The only thing I can think of to use against Falcons who don't care about shooting and only exist to transport assault units is to keep speeders hiding and zoom out to block the back hatches of the transport.    If they're running Firedragons, I'm not so worried because I don't run tanks - so I only worry about H2H units being delivered. 

I've been playing at 1500 lately in preparation for the Gamesday tournaments so you actually see less of the weaker skimmers and more of just the 3 Heavy Skimmers which are harder to take down in both lists that run them.  So that makes things a bit easier on me for right now as far as fighting skimmer lists.

Posted By Lowinor on 03/06/2007 5:39 AM
Zilla works because it throws more T6+ 2+ save wounds at you than most lists can handle.

I wish people would stop exagerating the Godzilla list.  Most of the firepower is in 3+ save Carnis.  Alot of the good lists don't even have 2+ saves except on the Zoey's.  But people whine and whine about the 'army' of T7 2+ save monstrous creatures and that it's unstopable.

I wish people would stop exagerating the Godzilla list.

Seconded!

It is sub par, not even worth listing in the top 10 lists. Escalation?

All the other powerful lists I listed aren't really hurt by escalation, for tyranids its crippling, remember the thread is about best overall.  Zilla nids are very 1 dimmensional and have huge weaknesses.

No hive mind on the board in escalation.  Also what is always forgotten, Carnifexes, they don't have hive mind, if they aren't in hive mind, they have to take a morale check to shoot or move.  I can't describe the number of times Tyranid players play it wrong! It's rare at LD 10, but occasionally a carnifex forgets what it's doing. With 6 on the board, and spread out, it's practically assured to happen at least once a game, it is a 1 in 12 chance after all, and 2 tests a turn for each fex (hypothetically) that could easily be once a turn.

From reading the FAQ and the Synapse rules if a Fex fails it's Instinctive Behavior test then it Lurks instead of moves/falls back, and therefore may shoot.

Also from my own experience most Nids that can have the 2+ Save take it, especially the Flyrant. I can see some people online skipping on the 2+ Save for the HS Fex's because so many people take Lascannons instead of Missile Launchers, but in my own experience the 2+ Save is very common.

And to be fair most people said T6 2+ Save.

Still come on, T6 with a 3+ Save or T7, 3+ Save with 5 Wounds is still more than most armies can deal with.

Escallation hurts I'm sure, but only 2/8 missions for this years US GT's will be using that.  And a "mostly Zilla" Nid list took 5th at the UKGT Final this year.  

Well there's a lot of unknowns in match up and mission.  I certainly admit, I wouldn't want to pod my marines into a tyranid horde in a take and hold.  But that's just one scenario/match...

Overall, other armies are better, perhaps not because their advantages are better, but because their disadavantages are smaller.

Drop Pod Terminator List

I played a librarian terminator cmd squad.

Chaplain terminator cmd squad.

Terminator squad

2 scout squads

5 dreads.

All but scouts in drop pods.  Most players could not deal with 11 assault cannons. In the last tournament I went to, a flying hive tyrant went away on turn two and I still had 5 cannons to shoot in escalation. The most trouble I had was with a massive mech marine army, but other than that I have had few problems that couldn't be overcome.

Posted By Augustus on 03/06/2007 1:06 PM

Overall, other armies are better, perhaps not because their advantages are better, but because their disadavantages are smaller.

That is exactly why I'm sticking with my Grey Knights.  They most definitely have their weaknesses but most of the disadvantages I can overcome.

I see the point most people are making about the pod armies but it just seems like without being able to control when you are going to get your reserves the list is weak.  I mean if your opponent has his whole army on the board and you are lucky enough to get 3 or your 5 pods on turn 2, then that means his WHOLE army gets to shoot/assault those 3 units while you wait for the other 2.  I could be (and probably am) totally off base but it just seems that way to me.

I guess I have to agree with skyth and Augustus on the zilla's, the list sounds tough but not impossible to overcome.

Being able to pick where you deploy with pods, safely is the main advantage.

The reason I don't like it is because I don't like being dependent on reserve rolls - it's more an issue with me than it is with the list.

The problem for me is that if they all drop early you're screwed. You actually want them to drop later in the game when it's harder for your opponent to keep a deployment castle going. I prefer a more static list with plenty of assault cannons to allow me more control over the game in general.

As far as Godzilla, it takes 6 Assault Cannons shooting at one T6 W4 3+ Save Carnifex sitting in 5+ Cover to kill it. You need to have all those assault cannons firing from turn 1 forward in order to take down 6+ TMC's in a 6 turn game, not to mention other threats. You only have so many terminator squads in any one list and that's how many targets they can focus on.

I would go with Lost and the Damned, if it is still allowed.
The amount of abuse that list can take.

Posted By Vult on 03/06/2007 2:47 PM
I guess I have to agree with skyth and Augustus on the zilla's, the list sounds tough but not impossible to overcome.

Those who say that the Godzilla list is not at the top have never played against a godzilla nids army.

They only thing that slows that army down is escalation.

Arent we for getting the all wytch force of the DE thats a First turn assault army, which is nasty too( iF played right if played wrong its a free win for the other side)

Disadvantages of Tyranids? They have none. Escalation is a problem only if you're facing an army absolutely stacked with firepower (IW) and terrain can still change the way of the game. If there's enough terrain that blocks line of sight completely or allows cover saves the Tyranids are still going to have a lot of fun, especially if the mission objectives reward a lot of VPs.

Tyranids are a prime example of an army that works in the current edition. They are an army filled with tanks that cannot be shaken or stunned and benefit from cover saves. They are a mobile firebase that works at peak efficiency even when moving towards any objective, and the fact that the enemy is also moving towards the same objective only helps the Tyranids in the sense that the prey is walking into the 18" Psychic Scream zone of death. The Tyranids of this edition don't need to munch all their opponents to death in close combat, not that they couldn't still kill all their opponents but because everyone will run away at the sight of the first morale check. A Hive Tyrant with dual twink Devourers causes 9,5 wounds on MEQ from 18" away, which is more than what 7 Marine held Heavy Bolters cause.

Everyone is at a disadvantage when fighting against Tyranids in terrain. Those 36 T6 wounds really start to become annoying when they're protected by 5+ invulnerable saves and you got 60 Gaunts running at you. Mission objectives require you to either gain table quarters, grab loot markers or move your entire army to the enemy's deployment zone. The Nids don't have trouble with any of them, unlike most of the their top competitors.

It's important to see that even a Tyranid list can be designed and played poorly and beating a Tyranid army here or there doesn't tell any more about the potential of the codex than the fact that there are 20 IW guys at every UK GT who lose most of their games. Likewise skilled generals can gain admirable results with (somewhat) weaker lists, like the Italian lad at the UK GT finals did last weekend. His army had only one Dakkafex (5 MC's total) and he employed units like Gargoyles, Biovores and a single unit of scuttling Genestealers to great effect.

As far as those Dark Eldar are concerned, they are a wild card who can always defeat anyone. A properly designed Dark Eldar army will most likely win a lot of its games when it goes first, but the win ratio drops dramatically in the opposite scenario.

I beg to differ on Dark Eldar needing first turn to win all the time. Some missions I would rather take 2nd turn for the win especially on any objective mission or quarters mission.

Therion-

 

These are one of the times I am in complete agreement with you. Locally, I believe many people don't think it is that difficult an army as we don't have someone running a Godzilla list. When one does show up for tourney play, it is game on and folks really get to see just how brutal they are.

Hmm, this could be a replacement for my Chaos demonbomb army as I know there's no way it's going to survive through the next codex incarnation.

I agree, Nidzillas are a tough tough list. From the inherant superiority of MC's over vehicles to the cheap, fast infantry, Nidzillas are a brutal list. From what I can tell, the only reason you dont see more of them in the top ranks of the tournies is because of a lack of players bringing them.

As Blackmoor knows, we have a local player here in SoCal who plays optimized Nidzillas and is a very good general, and he rarely gets beaten.

They are just a brutally hard army to beat, especially in cover.

I have always been of the opinion that DE are a savage army. And if you run a WWP army, you could care less if you go first or second, you drop your WWP's on your turn and you come out and assault with nearly no chance of being stoped. I think that the crapptasticness of the models and obsecurity of the rules is what limits the army from being more popular.

DE can put out a ton of cheap, highly potent firepower, have some of the best assault units in the game and are extremely mobile. DE deffinately can take on any other army.

First turn i rather go second most of the time, Its all about how you hide your ravagers and raiders. I personnely dont like the WWP tactic, I rather have my whole army on the table(1850 =87models four are vehilces). Other players One especailly told me that my army has a lot of Dakka in it( coming from a BT player too). But one of the toughest armies out would have too be the Red Tide( all Khorne INfantry) four units of 16 marines and two units of 8 bloodletters, and LT and a bloodthrister Nasty will give any army a run for its money even .

First turn i rather go second most of the time, Its all about how you hide your ravagers and raiders. I personnely dont like the WWP tactic, I rather have my whole army on the table(1850 =87models four are vehilces). Other players One especailly told me that my army has a lot of Dakka in it( coming from a BT player too). But one of the toughest armies out would have too be the Red Tide( all Khorne INfantry) four units of 16 marines and two units of 8 bloodletters, and LT and a bloodthrister Nasty will give any army a run for its money even .