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One thing the imperium has over eldar in general is the sheer volume of options. I'm building up my Space Wolves and they have so many options compared to DE.

A unit of blood claws can have:

1. A special weapon
2. A plasma pistol
3. Separate gear on the blood claw pack leader
4. Additional wargear options on the wolf pack leader

So i end up with a squad that has...

1. A plasma gun
2. A plasma pistol & chainsword
3. A bolt pistol + powerfist
4. A storm shield and a power fist

So these guys can pump out 3x Strength 8, ap-3, 2 damage shots, then charge in and fight with 6x strength 8, ap-3, d3 damage attacks. On top of chainswords & bolt pistols.

I'm not saying this is the optimal way to build the squad, but the options exist.

Bharring wrote:
"Can you really call it plas if it doesn't overheat ether?"
IoM can fire S7 D1 plas that doesn't overheat.
CWE can fire S6 Dd3 plas that doesn't overheat.
DE can fire S5 D2 plas that doesn't overheat.

Funny how the Heavy Bolter was the "worst thing" in this edition, and Grav was considered terribad, because S5 doesn't double out T3. But when it's xenos that have S5, suddenly it's the best thing since sliced bread.

It's just a great break point to start adding stats to a weapon profile. If Heavy bolters were ap-3 they would be spammed to high heaven. Because they would be removing most infantry without a save being made. Plus would still be decent for throwing into anything with a good armor save.

Bharring wrote:
Seems like one is undercosted and the other is overcosted. But Grav Cannon is probably the closest IoM weapon to the Dissie.

So -13 points for +12 range, being assualt on vehicals, D2 instead of D1* its only Dd3 on 3+saves or better, loses 1 shot. That seams like a serious steal. Hence why knowone using anything else. Not to mention it avoids the bigfest drawback of lascannons, darklances etc of veing vulnerable to invulnerable saves.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Dark and Bright Lances really need to have a rule that lets them always wound on a 4+ (as opposed to making the S9).

They basically had that prior to 8th. No idea why they didn't adapt that over.
It's simple - "If the target's toughness is higher than this weapon's strength, it wounds on a 4+"

But they already wound on at least a 4+ vs 99.9999999% of all units in the game anywhere. There are only a couple of things that are T9 in the game, and then 1 thing that modifies wound rolls (Harle Shadowseer). Most of the time the lances are wounding on 2+ or 3+.

Exactly; the Dissie really does outshine the Grav Cannon in every way. Despite being cheaper.

 Marmatag wrote:
One thing the imperium has over eldar in general is the sheer volume of options. I'm building up my Space Wolves and they have so many options compared to DE.

A unit of blood claws can have:

1. A special weapon
2. A plasma pistol
3. Separate gear on the blood claw pack leader
4. Additional wargear options on the wolf pack leader

So i end up with a squad that has...

1. A plasma gun
2. A plasma pistol & chainsword
3. A bolt pistol + powerfist
4. A storm shield and a power fist

So these guys can pump out 3x Strength 8, ap-3, 2 damage shots, then charge in and fight with 6x strength 8, ap-3, d3 damage attacks. On top of chainswords & bolt pistols.

I'm not saying this is the optimal way to build the squad, but the options exist.

The options are an illusion though - so long as they remain at nonviable prices.

Plus that really isn't imprium exclusive ether.
A squad of khabs can take 2 blasters and a dark lance and a blast pistol and agnosizer.
A squad of Nid warriors can take 3 VC and 6 deathspitters with a host of melle options and flesh hooks.

Doesn't make ether option any good. loading models with equipment is almost never optimal.

I'm building my blood claws right now to have 2 power fists and a stormshield. FWIW.

8 power fists on the charge with a Wulfen stone or Wulfen nearby for a 110 point unit.... hitting on 3s rerolling 1s. I might include the plasma who knows.

Bharring wrote:
Exactly; the Dissie really does outshine the Grav Cannon in every way. Despite being cheaper.

So should a dissy be more points than a grav cannon?
A grav cannon be less than what a dissy is now?
Bring on the 10 point grav cannons.

Or should a dissy be more, and a grav cannon be less for a sensible middle ground of 20 point dissy's, 15 point grav cannons?

Ice_can wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Exactly; the Dissie really does outshine the Grav Cannon in every way. Despite being cheaper.

So should a dissy be more points than a grav cannon?
A grav cannon be less than what a dissy is now?
Bring on the 10 point grav cannons.

Or should a dissy be more, and a grav cannon be less for a sensible middle ground of 20 point dissy's, 15 point grav cannons?

Grav Cannons and amps are probably fairly costed at 15 points per. I would also make them assault 4.

Weapon options should be costed vs buffs and unit costs that carry them. Dissys could cost the same as grav cannons, but if their carriers are cheaper and their buff units in form of farseers are better then gravcannons can get, they would still be much better.

I would say that 20pt Dissies would be an improvement. I would say that 15pt Grav Cannons would be an improvement. I'm not sure what points level exactly they should be.

Ice_can wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Exactly; the Dissie really does outshine the Grav Cannon in every way. Despite being cheaper.

So should a dissy be more points than a grav cannon?
A grav cannon be less than what a dissy is now?
Bring on the 10 point grav cannons.

Or should a dissy be more, and a grav cannon be less for a sensible middle ground of 20 point dissy's, 15 point grav cannons?

Yeah - I think you've got it with the bottom line. That is about where things should be.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
People saying dissie should be increased to cost the same as dark lance - you realize no one takes dark lances, right? Dark Lances are not good.

And Guilliman is army-wide guide, and army-wide doom, without the ability to be denied. His gun isn't bad, and his melee is pretty good, too.

Yeah it's nuts. Whats really nuts is even with that space marines can't win games. Imagine if Astra Militarum could take Gman and have the ultra marines buff. Everything would be tabled in 2 turns.

Also if a dark lance is bad - how bad are lascannons? they even cost 5 points more. (looks like they might be getting dropped in some leaks).

Naw, what's really nuts is that every Marine is priced around having that set of buffs when only one marine faction out of the nine or ten that exist can fully utilize him.

Karol,
Grav Cannons w/Amps have every buff a Farseer can give them, but better. You're overestimating what the Farseer does.

Bharring wrote:
Karol,
Grav Cannons w/Amps have every buff a Farseer can give them, but better. You're overestimating what the Farseer does.

Amps don't reroll wounds anymore. They don't do anything actually.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Newman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
People saying dissie should be increased to cost the same as dark lance - you realize no one takes dark lances, right? Dark Lances are not good.

And Guilliman is army-wide guide, and army-wide doom, without the ability to be denied. His gun isn't bad, and his melee is pretty good, too.

Yeah it's nuts. Whats really nuts is even with that space marines can't win games. Imagine if Astra Militarum could take Gman and have the ultra marines buff. Everything would be tabled in 2 turns.

Also if a dark lance is bad - how bad are lascannons? they even cost 5 points more. (looks like they might be getting dropped in some leaks).

Naw, what's really nuts is that every Marine is priced around having that set of buffs when only one marine faction out of the nine or ten that exist can fully utilize him.

You give GW too much credit about things like..."having a plan when costing space marine models".

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Karol,
Grav Cannons w/Amps have every buff a Farseer can give them, but better. You're overestimating what the Farseer does.

Amps don't reroll wounds anymore. They don't do anything actually.

I think he means general access to buffs.

Guide - Chapter Master
Doom - Lieutenant / Guilliman

But Grav Cannon and Amp losing access to reroll wounds was a bit odd. If they had innate reroll wounds they'd be great.

I've seen so little Grav, that I wouldn't have noticed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Marmatag,
Dissies cannot be affected by Guide.

Bharring wrote:
I've seen so little Grav, that I wouldn't have noticed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Marmatag,
Dissies cannot be affected by Guide.

Aware of this. I was speaking in regards to access to buffs for marines.

I was trying to interpret your statement. sorry if i gakked it up.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Karol,
Grav Cannons w/Amps have every buff a Farseer can give them, but better. You're overestimating what the Farseer does.

Amps don't reroll wounds anymore. They don't do anything actually.

I think he means general access to buffs.

Guide - Chapter Master
Doom - Lieutenant / Guilliman

But Grav Cannon and Amp losing access to reroll wounds was a bit odd. If they had innate reroll wounds they'd be great.

They would probably be worth 28 points at that point. LOL. Maybe a misprint.

Devastator Squad /w 4 grav cannon & amps, with hit rerolls & reroll 1 to wound against a Knight forces ~7.04 saves.

Ravager /w 3x Dissie with hit reroll of 1 & full wound reroll against a Knight forces ~3.89 saves.

The devastators cost 40% more base than the Ravager, and deal 181% of the damage.

The problem here isn't that Grav is bad. The problem is that Space Marines lack effective delivery systems for their weapons. Because in reality the grav is going to have to move. And, exposed marines with grav will soak fire from the opponent, because grav is quite dangerous.

Range is the only thing that prevents grav from just gaking on everything. If it had a 36" range, marines with grav would be top tier without question.

 Marmatag wrote:
Devastator Squad /w 4 grav cannon & amps, with hit rerolls & reroll 1 to wound against a Knight forces ~7.04 saves.

Ravager /w 3x Dissie with hit reroll of 1 & full wound reroll against a Knight forces ~3.89 saves.

The devastators cost 40% more base than the Ravager, and deal 181% of the damage.

The problem here isn't that Grav is bad. The problem is that Space Marines lack effective delivery systems for their weapons. Because in reality the grav is going to have to move. And, exposed marines with grav will soak fire from the opponent, because grav is quite dangerous.

Range is the only thing that prevents grav from just gaking on everything. If it had a 36" range, marines with grav would be top tier without question.

Range is an issue though. When you lack range/ mobility / and plenty of units that don't lack ether are good at killing you. You end up being the worst army in the game (bar greyknights). Also - the cost of a grav cannon is 28 points - even if the cannons had 36" range marines would still suck.

 Marmatag wrote:
Devastator Squad /w 4 grav cannon & amps, with hit rerolls & reroll 1 to wound against a Knight forces ~7.04 saves.

Ravager /w 3x Dissie with hit reroll of 1 & full wound reroll against a Knight forces ~3.89 saves.

The devastators cost 40% more base than the Ravager, and deal 181% of the damage.

The problem here isn't that Grav is bad. The problem is that Space Marines lack effective delivery systems for their weapons. Because in reality the grav is going to have to move. And, exposed marines with grav will soak fire from the opponent, because grav is quite dangerous.

Range is the only thing that prevents grav from just gaking on everything. If it had a 36" range, marines with grav would be top tier without question.

I think your ravager #s are wrong? Or did I miss something?

9 * .777 * .555 * .666 * 2 = 5.2

Grav is --

16 * .888 * .388 * .666 * 2 = 7.3

That would make cost and damage both ~40%, which obviously is borked considering range, durability, and mobility.

There's a ton of support assumptions in the figures anyway though, which I hate. Raw figures are...

2.7 for Ravager
4.7 for Grav

So, grav is ~74% better with ~40% extra cost, but still with the aforementioned issues.

Bharring wrote:
I've seen so little Grav, that I wouldn't have noticed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Marmatag,
Dissies cannot be affected by Guide.

Why take it?

well you aren't using cherub and signum which dramiatically increases the output of the dev squad.

Look like he just did reroll 1's to wound.

I assumed popping the cherub which actually wasn't entirely fair because it is one use only, my bad.In any case, it's not even close to comparable if Guilliman is nearby. But that's neither here nor there:

The point is, Grav suffers from its delivery system. You could diminish this by making it assault. I'd also drop the points, because it only does 1 damage against light infantry.

Buffed up with rerolls I think they would still be solid even hitting on 4s for a turn.

The issue is that they will be insta-gibbed by almost anything. I don't think there is a weapon in the game which is inefficient against 35 point (on average) per wound models.

Ravagers may not be impossible to kill - but with that 5++ and potentially 6+++ they are not tough. You can also avoid many threats due to that 50" effective range.

Can we stop discussing the best point value of Disintegrator Cannons, please? The book is printed, so anyone's opinion is rather moot at this point.

I mean, that's what chapter approved is for isn't it?

Changing point costs?

The problem is that this is just a whining echo chamber. I can't wait for the post CA meltdowns.

 WisdomLS wrote:

Perhaps someone could math out a dissy ravager compared to a heavybolter, autocannon predator, if the dissy is the DE heavy bolter they serve similar roles, with the pred being slightly more durable (debatable) and the ravager having much greater mobility and the fly keyword which is always undercosted.

Assuming I'vw got the stats on an Autocannon right (2d3 shots S7 AP-1 D3), then it's as follows.
Vs Ork Boys: Pred kills 4 4/9 Dissy Ravager 4
Vs Primaris: Pred 1 5/9 Ravager 3 1/3
Vs Knight w/ 4++: Pred 2 Ravager 2
Vs Rhno: Pred 2 2/3 Ravager 3 1/3

So the ravager is a bit better against most things, worse against hordes, much better against Primaris.