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I'm going to stay out of the broader debate here. I've got some very definate opinions and will certainly step on some toes. But I don't want to get into a serious (well, as seious as Dakka is anyway..) debate right now. But I will add this amusing tidbit to the mix.

I'm not sure it's really your place to tell families that have lived on the continent for generations and consider themselves that they aren't African's. It's like telling American's who's families have been in North America for several hundred years that they aren't Americans becuase they aren't Sioux or Apache. now you could say they aren't Sioux or Apache, but you can't say they aren't Americans (in the broader sense).

I had a good friend/co-worker who was a Rhodesian expat. (He's the primary cause of my facination with the Rhodesian Bush War) He used to love to torment the blacks at work by telling them "I'm far more of an 'African-American' that you will ever be. I was born there, ouen!"

TR

Society can shape youths yes, but look at all of the disenfranchised youths who made a living. Look at Bill Cosby and most rappers. They come from hard times but get rich and succeed. Look at Obama, he was pretty poor but he worked hard and became president.

The only reason why black youths are disenfranchised is because of racism. Look at history, blacks were paid far less in the 70s and black only schools were horrible so their children couldn't get good jobs either. Racism caused all of the "social" issues. Racism is a social factor.
@Orkeosaurus

They say that most public schools are focusing on ways women learn and not the way boys learn so more boys are failing now and days. Yes, boys and girls do learn differently.

ROFL

Trench thats priceless.

Halonachos, I hate to say it but most rappers are not a very good example to use as a good role model.

Not a good role model, but rich. I could say athletes are definitely better examples. Plaxico Burress came from the same area I live in, the school he went to is called "gang run" for a reason. He shot himself and was stupid, but hes successful.

halonachos wrote:Not a good role model, but rich. I could say athletes are definitely better examples. Plaxico Burress came from the same area I live in, the school he went to is called "gang run" for a reason. He shot himself and was stupid, but hes successful.

Yes, but so Osama Bin Laden. Success isn't a measure of worth, and being successful doesn't make you a good role model. Sports stars are awful role models to impoverished communities because they provide the false hope of sports success at the cost of the more basic ideals of education and job success. Sports stars are no better than rap stars as role models.

Which is better, false hope or no hope?

I had false hopes of becoming an astronaut, but changed later on. Seeing sports stars can encourage youths to join sports teams and leagues. This:
1)Keeps them off the streets
2)Builds leadership/teamwork
3)Looks good on college applications
4)In school, athletes are pushed to maintain at least C averages in most states.
5)Gives them something to have fun with
6)Can get them a scholarship for colleges

They may never become pro athletes, but they learn skills and of course gives them an incentive to maintain average (if not better) grades.

Yeah, success is based on social environments. But last time I checked, I'm american so suicide bombing isn't a successful career, in fact its often very short lived.

halonachos wrote:But last time I checked, I'm american so suicide bombing isn't a successful career, in fact its often very short lived.

I think you've got it backwards.

If it's a short lived career when you are successful.

Ah yes, successful careers.

Dr Harold Shipman has been described as our worst serial killer.

But he murdered lots of Grannies, having got himself onto their Wills first. Surely he was in fact a very good, highly competent serial killer?

I put myself forward as Britains worst serial killer, as I was only accused* the once, and had cast iron proof that I was innocent seeing as my Dad (who the Daily Record reckoned I'd bumped off) is still very much alive, living in the Borders of Scotland as a Tourist Information Officer (my parents SUCK at being retired!).......

*well, I say accused. A note was pushed through my Uncles door asking how he felt about my alleged upcoming murder trial. Little more digging, and I had a very over excited Journoscum on the end of the phone, thinking he had an exclusive article with a murderer in the offing. But no, it was me. A mild mannered Telesales Manager wondering exactly who it was I was meant to have killed, the whole shenigan not only being news to me, but to the apparently now Undead victim....

I think I'm worse at being a British serial killer than that.

Not only have I never killed anyone, but I've never even been accused, nor have I ever been to Britain.

halonachos wrote:Not a good role model, but rich. I could say athletes are definitely better examples.

Like OJ Simpson ! No, wait, he's a bad example.... or a good one .. or ...?

The only reason why black youths are disenfranchised is because of racism. Look at history, blacks were paid far less in the 70s and black only schools were horrible so their children couldn't get good jobs either. Racism caused all of the "social" issues. Racism is a social factor.

So you accept and agree that racism is "bad" and a problem yet you're arguing against moves to try and remove/limit it ?

Modquisition on.

gentlemen there have been several comments that could be considered flaming. Cease and desist such posts on this thread or risk disciplinary action.

halonachos wrote:The only reason why black youths are disenfranchised is because of racism.

This is the point where I realized he's just jerking our chain, or is just a kid and hasn't learned that things aren't as simple as a Perils of Pauline serial.

Dude I'm older than dirt and don't get that reference-what does Perils of Pauline refer to?

No reds8n, what I am trying to say about the whole rascist thing is that PC isn't removing rascism, its only covering it up.

Einstein said that the only way to end prejudice and racism is through understanding and enlightenment. Changing verbage is not a good way to do so.

Ahtman, if you read the rest of the sentence you see that I say it stems from history.

If you plant dried seeds in a weed filled garden nothing will grow. If you plant good seeds in a weed filled garden, something may grow. If you plant good seeds in a good garden, they are mostly guranteed to grow.

During the 60's, 70's, etc minorities were discriminated against and paid less due to color. Now, low income almost gurantees that the children of the family will get a job right out of highschool, or drop out to get a job. These jobs are also low income but it helps to support the family.

Those that dropped out will more than likely continue the same cycle while those that got a high school diploma may further education or at least get paid a little more.

However, back to the rascist thing, minorities continued to get paid less and so the dead seeds kept getting planted in the weed filled garden. However, some youths found ways to survive and get into higher learning facilities or found other legal means to gain success and were the good seeds that came from the weed filled garden.

There have been very few instances of good seeds in good gardens in the minority community and often richer people make dead seeds and try to grow them in good gardens (Paris Hilton for example).

I don't believe that we should help out only specific groups, we should help out everyone who needs it despite race. The only way to do this is to remove the labels of race and to see people as people, but not as their race.

I ignore race and color. You're black, so what? You're white, so what?You're asian, so what? You're gay, so what? Do you think being a different color makes you special, do you want a prize or something? So you're different from the plain vanilla human, all you are is just a different model of the same thing. Like a different colored car, or even a different model car, its still a car.

Frazzled wrote:Dude I'm older than dirt and don't get that reference-what does Perils of Pauline refer to?

Old movie serials with broadly drawn characters. Bad guy with a mustache and twirls, ties girl to railroad, ect ect.

Like Dick Dastardly I presume?

I don't believe that we should help out only specific groups, we should help out everyone who needs it despite race. The only way to do this is to remove the labels of race and to see people as people, but not as their race.

You can stop, and the government can stop. The people will continue to do so. Put ten men with blue hats and ten men with red hats into a room and they will segregate themselves. Its human nature. The goal of government is to broadly assess the needs of the whole and generate solutions using the collective power of the people in a way that they can not individually. If that means propping up one race because the culture historically pushes them down then that is what it should do.

It's not about being fair or race blind. Its about doing what works and realizing that childish idealism doesn't work because you are not everyone.

ShumaGorath wrote:
You can stop, and the government can stop. The people will continue to do so. Put ten men with blue hats and ten men with red hats into a room and they will segregate themselves. Its human nature. The goal of government is to broadly assess the needs of the whole and generate solutions using the collective power of the people in a way that they can not individually. If that means propping up one race because the culture historically pushes them down then that is what it should do.

It's not about being fair or race blind. Its about doing what works and realizing that childish idealism doesn't work because you are not everyone.

umm.. wow.
Racism is ok then? So long as it works?
For the record, I have never "pushed down" any ethnic group. I never owned a slave. I never made anyone sit in the back of the buss. In so cal in the 80s-90s none of this ever happened. So why should the ethnic groups I went to school with get something special based on the fact that decades ago something bad happened to someone of the same color skin?

Yes, I am not everyone. So we've established that life sucks and segregation is inherent...in adults at least.

Obviously helping out only one race doesn't help either as minority crime rates are still higher than majority crime rates and minority unemployment is higher than majority employment.

So, if this doesn't work and idealism doesn't work then what does? We haven't tried idealism so maybe it could work perhaps? Besides, children have some of the best ideas when it comes to society.

Gen. Lee is right. All the new age "racism" is all about what happened a long time ago.
I don't care what my great great grandfather did you your ancestors, you aren't involved.
They also call racism on stupid things.

And the thing is, most Blacks, Asians, Whites, that I have asked about this topic say they don't even care. But the ones who complain the most get the most attention and are annoying everyone with this whole nationalist attitude.

Shuma is correct though, people segregate themselves without help. So we can't stop people not liking people that are different from them. My dad has a big mustach. A long time ago we went over to a friends house and since the babys father did not have a mustach, she cried and wouldn't get near my dad. This shows that it is bred in people to not like people that are different. We can't stop it.

Babies actually prefer smoother faces to rougher ones because most mothers lack facial hais and those with wrinkles are usually old and don't produce milk to give to the baby.

Look at children though. My teacher told a story about how she used to play with another kid and brought the kid home. The mother kicked the kid out because he was black. Kids don't care about color until their parents make them care or they learn about it in school.

Gen. Lee Losing wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:
You can stop, and the government can stop. The people will continue to do so. Put ten men with blue hats and ten men with red hats into a room and they will segregate themselves. Its human nature. The goal of government is to broadly assess the needs of the whole and generate solutions using the collective power of the people in a way that they can not individually. If that means propping up one race because the culture historically pushes them down then that is what it should do.

It's not about being fair or race blind. Its about doing what works and realizing that childish idealism doesn't work because you are not everyone.

umm.. wow.
Racism is ok then? So long as it works?
For the record, I have never "pushed down" any ethnic group. I never owned a slave. I never made anyone sit in the back of the buss. In so cal in the 80s-90s none of this ever happened. So why should the ethnic groups I went to school with get something special based on the fact that decades ago something bad happened to someone of the same color skin?

It's not racism. Christ almighty none of you know what that word means. None of this is based on racism, but is based on current racial standings within american culture. Thats not racist. It's not racist.

Yes, I am not everyone. So we've established that life sucks and segregation is inherent...in adults at least.

Obviously helping out only one race doesn't help either as minority crime rates are still higher than majority crime rates and minority unemployment is higher than majority employment.

Yes, you've hit the submit button. Now look at education and employment rates from before and after the programs were initiated. Then never post in this topic again. They have had a questionable impact, but for a time it was deemed they they did a good amount of work to help. Whether it will overcome the semi self imposed minority cultural segregation that America has begun to experience is unknown, but you aren't arguing any of that. You are plugging your ears, shouting racist, and generally carrying on while adding nothing. Just stop.

Gen. Lee is right. All the new age "racism" is all about what happened a long time ago.
I don't care what my great great grandfather did you your ancestors, you aren't involved.
They also call racism on stupid things.

Yeah, new age. Thats why these programs have been around for longer than I've been alive. Because it's new age. Thats all it is, new age racism.


www.dictionary.com

Use this website. It's clear none of you have seen one like it before.

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement.

By saying that minorites are treated wrong and need help you are determining the fact that they will become criminals and fail.



2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.

By granting affirmitive action you are discriminating against the majority of the population. No other government has tried this, in fact hitler discriminated against the minority to get support.

So by definitions 1 and 2 of racism, it is rascist.

Sit down, and be quiet. Thanks for helping my argument, here's a cookie.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Gen. Lee Losing wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:
You can stop, and the government can stop. The people will continue to do so. Put ten men with blue hats and ten men with red hats into a room and they will segregate themselves. Its human nature. The goal of government is to broadly assess the needs of the whole and generate solutions using the collective power of the people in a way that they can not individually. If that means propping up one race because the culture historically pushes them down then that is what it should do.

It's not about being fair or race blind. Its about doing what works and realizing that childish idealism doesn't work because you are not everyone.

umm.. wow.
Racism is ok then? So long as it works?
For the record, I have never "pushed down" any ethnic group. I never owned a slave. I never made anyone sit in the back of the buss. In so cal in the 80s-90s none of this ever happened. So why should the ethnic groups I went to school with get something special based on the fact that decades ago something bad happened to someone of the same color skin?

It's not racism. Christ almighty none of you know what that word means. None of this is based on racism, but is based on current racial standings within american culture. Thats not racist. It's not racist.


www.dictionary.com

Use this website. It's clear none of you have seen one like it before.

Ok. From the website you gave us (wez po ignant folk).

rac⋅ism   /ˈreɪsɪzəm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [rey-siz-uhm] Show IPA
–noun 1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.

So, we have a policy (see #2) that states that minorities have lower cultural achievements (see #1) and thus need help that we wont give to white kids because they are white (see #2 again, the part about discrimination).

Yup. Racism.

EDIT: halonachos was faster...

Well, I am going to go to class for a bit, I'll be back. Hopefully this won't be locked.

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement.

By saying that minorites are treated wrong and need help you are determining the fact that they will become criminals and fail.

Yes, throw another logical loophole at me. Treating someone for a cut clearly means I think they are going to bleed to death.

Try again.

2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.

By granting affirmitive action you are discriminating against the majority of the population. No other government has tried this, in fact hitler discriminated against the minority to get support.

Because the government believes that generational economic disenfranchisement exists within the black community it believes that the race in inherently incapable of improving its own situation. Yes, it is racism that propagates these policies. Clearly. No where else in the world has tried these policies, no, not any of them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action

You have no idea what you're talking about. Try again.

Sit down, and be quiet. Thanks for helping my argument, here's a cookie.

You don't have an argument. You don't understand simple english definitions. You have no conception of racial policies in this country or on this planet.

Ok. From the website you gave us (wez po ignant folk).

rac⋅ism   /ˈreɪsɪzəm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [rey-siz-uhm] Show IPA
–noun 1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.

So, we have a policy (see #2) that states that minorities have lower cultural achievements (see #1) and thus need help that we wont give to white kids because they are white (see #2 again, the part about discrimination).

Yup. Racism.

Glad to see we have english majors here. It's nice to know you think that these policies are based on fostering the idea that certain races are inherently incapable. That is why they are around.

You're a genius.





Fraz, please close this thread. Orkeosaurus stopped posting (and we were getting to a good discussion too) and rebutting the 14 year olds with single paragraphs screaming racism is killing me inside.

halonachos wrote:1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement.

By saying that minorites are treated wrong and need help you are determining the fact that they will become criminals and fail.

You're entirely missing the point. Saying that minorities are treated poorly is not the same thing as saying minorities deserve to be treated poorly. The former is not racist, the latter is racist. Affirmative action is not racist, Jim Crow laws are racist.

halonachos wrote:
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.

By granting affirmitive action you are discriminating against the majority of the population. No other government has tried this, in fact hitler discriminated against the minority to get support.

A policy is racist if it acknowledges that there are genetic differences between the races which determine their relative abilities to achieve success. It is NOT RACIST if it acknowledges that the past belief in genetic variance as a determiner of success has lead to socioeconomic stratification which is potentially destabilizing.

Also, you seem to lack any understanding of how affirmative action works. It is not some quota, or special clause which requires that institutions like schools admit minorities. It is a law which allows citizens denied employment/admission/etc. to mount a legal challenge on the grounds that the denial was based only upon race.

halonachos wrote:
So by definitions 1 and 2 of racism, it is rascist.

Sit down, and be quiet. Thanks for helping my argument, here's a cookie.

No, it isn't.

ShumaGorath wrote:

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement.

By saying that minorites are treated wrong and need help you are determining the fact that they will become criminals and fail.

Yes, throw another logical loophole at me. Treating someone for a cut clearly means I think they are going to bleed to death.

Try again.

2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.

By granting affirmitive action you are discriminating against the majority of the population. No other government has tried this, in fact hitler discriminated against the minority to get support.

Because the government believes that generational economic disenfranchisement exists within the black community it believes that the race in inherently incapable of improving its own situation. Yes, it is racism that propagates these policies. Clearly. No where else in the world has tried these policies, no, not any of them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action

You have no idea what you're talking about. Try again.

Sit down, and be quiet. Thanks for helping my argument, here's a cookie.

You don't have an argument. You don't understand simple english definitions. You have no conception of racial policies in this country or on this planet.

Ok. From the website you gave us (wez po ignant folk).

rac⋅ism   /ˈreɪsɪzəm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [rey-siz-uhm] Show IPA
–noun 1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.

So, we have a policy (see #2) that states that minorities have lower cultural achievements (see #1) and thus need help that we wont give to white kids because they are white (see #2 again, the part about discrimination).

Yup. Racism.

Glad to see we have english majors here. It's nice to know you think that these policies are based on fostering the idea that certain races are inherently incapable. That is why they are around.

You're a genius.





Fraz, please close this thread. Orkeosaurus stopped posting (and we were getting to a good discussion too) and rebutting the 14 year olds with single paragraphs screaming racism is killing me inside.

If the government believes that the black community is capable (a blanket policy on a group of peoples based solely on the color of their skin) then why have extra help.
This was a good discussion until you decided that you own the english language and cried for the thread to be closed.

Well geez, this topic got turned into another "I'm right, you're wrong" idea huh? Why not just state your opinions and then not get mad at someone for disagreeing with you...

EDIT: In fact, why not even stop saying why someone elses opinion is wrong? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

The people who have never been overtly racist and think that means they get a pass to create an imaginary world where minority groups were never kept from resources and education seem to not know about the idea of unearned White Privilege (UWP). By the very nature of being a part of the majority certain things are ignored and are such a fabric of society most people never even notice (part of the perks of being in control is not having to notice).

For example, more often than not if a white male driver gets pulled over for going over the speed limit the cop will give them a speeding ticket. If a black male gets pulled over he will get the ticket as well as a myriad of questions about where he is going, where did he come from, what is he doing, ect ect. This is the kind of passive reality minorities deal with every day. Or being of South American descent but always having to worry about someone thinking you are an illegal even if your family has been here for generations. Even though a white guy blew up the Oklahoma federal building and we know there are white terrorists American citizens (who appear to be) of middle eastern or African descent are far more likely to get "randomly" selected at an airport than white passengers.

The idea that everything is merit based is also a joke. "It's unfair," I hear people yell, "we should be judged on how well we do". Well that is a nice story but it has almost never, ever been the case. Who you know has always been more important than what you know. It is how a C student gets into Yale. When you have been cut off from that type of networking for a century or two it takes time to get it built up. Is affirmative action a perfect solution? No, but it is better than doing nothing and far better than pretending that everything is perfectly fine.